The only issue is knowledge/experience. That which you said above, having sex without a condom, is a knowledge vs philosophy issue.
It is yes but not entirely.
As I said the pre-frontal cortex only fully develops around the age of 20. So if you're 18 years old and you're pre-frontal cortex (the last part of the brain that matures) is not fully developed, your decision making and ability to control impulses probably won't be as great as a 25-30 year old. In my example with the unprotected sex someone could very well know the consequences but when the time arrives is just overwhelmed by the sexual desire. The person might be thinking "Oh man this is awesome we can totally have sex right now. I don't have a condom though. I don't want to get her pregnant. But it feels so good. I really shouldn't. But it feels so good. She probably won't get pregnant. What are the odds? I'll pull out. I'm going for it!"
As you said, yeah it has to do with knowledge and experience (being a product of your environment) but it also has to do with biology.
I'm actually studying psychology so I'll put my two cents in. As you can see in the image below the brain only really finishes development at around age 20 - although new studies are revealing it's more likely between the ages of 23-25. Particularly it's the pre-frontal cortex; responsible for judgment, decision making and controlling your impulses that is the last to develop. So yeah one can seem more mature for their age in some aspects but still be inadequately developed. For example, I've always been more matured than my friends but when it came to decisions boy did I make a few bad ones. I'm sure some of you have experienced similiar situations. Having sex without a condom for example. Ignoring consequences. Then of course there's other factors like environment and culture. There's just so much that contributes to our mental age.
That said, some people do develop more quickly than others and then some slower, giving the appearance that they seem older or younger than their actual age. Like you said earlier, society seems to view people younger than 20 as still being adolescents. I suppose this is why people tend to pretend their older; so that they're taken more seriously.
Dude, stop generalizing, seriously. I haven't made any wrong decision thus far in my life. Nothing worthy of mentioning, at least. I've always known what I want to major in, I've always had a plan, and I take decisions accordingly. Grown ass people still make adolescent mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, be it in decision making, or in baking a cake, irrespective of their age. The condom example you gave is really, really null. Uneducated households contains a large number of children (in most cases). That's because grown ass people, the man and the woman, don't even know about contraceptive methods. It's not about age, it's about frikkin' exposure. In this day and age, if you're older than 10-12, and still don't know what a condom is, you might have an extra number 13 chromosome.
Pre frontal cortex or whatever, your BASE is there when you're 15-16-17-whatever. Anything that happens in your brain after that is just not that big of a deal (more so at later ages, anyway. In the 17-20 region). When the hormonal surge stops, you become to think more clearly, as opposed to the "everybody is a dumbass motherfucker who just doesn't get me" mindset that everyone is in during their teen years. Making wrong decisions isn't based on age. 50 year olds make dumb as fuck decisions, and 18 year olds make smart as fuck decisions. There is no rule governing these situations.
The only issue is knowledge/experience. That which you said above, having sex without a condom, is a knowledge vs philosophy issue.
It is yes but not entirely.
As I said the pre-frontal cortex only fully develops around the age of 20. So if you're 18 years old and you're pre-frontal cortex (the last part of the brain that matures) is not fully developed, your decision making and ability to control impulses probably won't be as great as a 25-30 year old. In my example with the unprotected sex someone could very well know the consequences but when the time arrives is just overwhelmed by the sexual desire. The person might be thinking "Oh man this is awesome we can totally have sex right now. I don't have a condom though. I don't want to get her pregnant. But it feels so good. I really shouldn't. But it feels so good. She probably won't get pregnant. What are the odds? I'll pull out. I'm going for it!"
As you said, yeah it has to do with knowledge and experience (being a product of your environment) but it also has to do with biology.
You're citing an irrelevant example. A guy should know what kind of girl he's having sex with. The girl should take oral contraceptives, use an IUD, or whatever, which can fully substitute for a condom. Old people make the mistake you just cited, not just teenagers. Hell, the age gap between myself and my brother is 13 years..something tells me my dad wasn't feeling like putting on a condom 19 years ago, because "it felt so good", or whatever. There. That's a good example, as opposed to the one you gave, which is vague and doesn't apply to what we're talking about, at all. My brother remained a douche who ignored all the important things in life, and instead spent several years fucking around. He graduated when he was 27-28. That means he didn't start university properly until he was about 25. So much for your pre-frontal cortex theory always applying to decision making prowess, or whatever.
your decision making and ability to control impulses probably won't be as great as a 25-30 year old.
Actually, impulse control is a discipline issue. Most parents do not train their kids any, I know mine didn't (because I was a girl they hoped I'd discipline myself, I guess it kinda worked out, but it also backfired, so I dunno), that's why they feel entitled to things and their mental controller is so hilariously weak they can't even control their sexual desire. And that doesn't magically go away when you get older. For all I know most people just learn it by doing the wrong thing, and the consequences serving as that discipline kick. It's really not a good way to learn things IMO, and very laggy.
And if you're going to point at me and say "oh but you're a girl", but you can't say there's no guy on the planet that didn't have sex at a wrong time?
I had my "temptations", too. At different stages. At age 7 or so I was asked by a friend if I want to drive in the same car as him. That was considered a bad idea in Ukraine due to kidnapping or whatever. I didn't. People tried to get me to smoke at 10, I didn't. Stuff like making sure doctors didn't use used syringes on me, I had to keep track of that. I was alone from a pretty young age in Ukraine. Still didn't do anything stupid. If anything, the most stupid things so far were done quite recently, but nothing significant.
In fact, to this day, I don't do anything that wasn't analyzed somewhat, first. I do not make any actions without thinking about them first. So if someone randomly asks me to do something significant I block out completely and it's not going to happen. Most people, on the other hand, have Kirk type of thinking. They jump before they look at whatever the hell they're jumping at. Which means 9/10 you're going to fall off a cliff.
And you know what? Our society likes that mentality. Which is why we to this day have people doing stupid things like that and not thinking it's a personal, rather than a developmental, problem.
The person might be thinking "Oh man this is awesome we can totally have sex right now. I don't have a condom though. I don't want to get her pregnant. But it feels so good. I really shouldn't. But it feels so good. She probably won't get pregnant. What are the odds? I'll pull out. I'm going for it!"
But this is such a common thinking mode though. Doesn't that alone tell you common thinking like that is for common people? That's lack of will, nothing else. It means that the id controls the ego. And that kind of thing separates man from animal it has nothing to do with age.
How am I generalizing? I specifically said "some people do develop more quickly than others and then some slower." So yeah you're probably one of those people who developed sooner. I'm simply stating what I've read in studies.
Everyone makes mistakes, be it in decision making, or in baking a cake, irrespective of their age. The condom example you gave is really, really null. Uneducated households contains a large number of children (in most cases). That's because grown ass people, the man and the woman, don't even know about contraceptive methods. It's not about age, it's about frikkin' exposure. In this day and age, if you're older than 10-12, and still don't know what a condom is, you might have an extra number 13 chromosome.
I'm not really talking about mistakes. I'm talking about judgement and umpulses. Yes younger people do tend to give in to umpulses and make poor judgment calls because of their lack of experience but it's also due to biology, as many studies have now demonstrated.
Pre frontal cortex or whatever, your BASE is there when you're 15-16-17-whatever. Anything that happens in your brain after that is just not that big of a deal (more so at later ages, anyway. In the 17-20 region). When the hormonal surge stops, you become to think more clearly, as opposed to the "everybody is a dumbass motherfucker who just doesn't get me" mindset that everyone is in during their teen years. Making wrong decisions isn't based on age. 50 year olds make dumb as fuck decisions, and 18 year olds make smart as fuck decisions. There is no rule governing these situations.
You're right of course. People make poor judgment calls all the time, regardless of their age. The point I was trying to make is there is reason that older people tend to look to younger people as being less intelligent or whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean they're right since I don't think intelligence has anything to do with the reasoning behind their bias. I just think that grown adults see young adults as inexperienced and lacking in certain judgemental skills and impulse control (partying, drugs, sex, etc.) I agree in many cases it's unwarranted but so is a lot of other bias we see in our society.
You're citing an irrelevant example. A guy should know what kind of girl he's having sex with. The girl should take oral contraceptives, use an IUD, or whatever, which can fully substitute for a condom. Old people make the mistake you just cited, not just teenagers. Hell, the age gap between myself and my brother is 13 years..something tells me my dad wasn't feeling like putting on a condom 19 years ago, because "it felt so good", or whatever. There. That's a good example, as opposed to the one you gave, which is vague and doesn't apply to what we're talking about, at all. My brother remained a douche who ignored all the important things in life, and instead spent several years fucking around. He graduated when he was 27-28. That means he didn't start university properly until he was about 25. So much for your pre-frontal cortex theory always applying to decision making prowess, or whatever.
A guy should know, yes. And they should use some form of birth control, yes. But they don't always do. You're completely ignoring statistics. Yes a lot of older people fuck up and make poor decisions but it's a bigger problem in younger adults. The pre-fontal cortex theory is not my theory. It's the results of hundreds of MRI studies of adolesecent brain development. I did not say it always applies to decision making. I said some people will develop earlier and others later but on average it's around the age of 20.
I agree with everything you've said so far. Maybe I'm not getting my point across clearly enough. I tend to do that a lot. I'm saying on average older people view younger adults as being less experienced, foolish, naive, etc. Not ALL older adults think this. Some do. Likewise, not ALL younger adults are less experienced, foolish or naive. Some are. They complete their physical development and they learn from their experiences. What I'm saying is, there is a typical age that a person accumulates enough experience and has developed enough that they start to exhibit more adult-like behaviour. There ARE exceptions. On average, it seems to be around age 20.
I'd also like to state based on my experience in the job market I've seen plenty of discrimination of people less than 25 years old. The reasoning being they won't take the job as seriously, they're less experienced, etc. I've been refused jobs for this reason. See where I'm working now though, they took the chance. They were uncertain whether to hire me and the general manager even told me. "We usually don't hire anyone under 25. It's not a job where you can go out partying all night and wake up at 5am and go to work. You need to be alert and ready to work." He was being biased and assuming I was irresponsible and rash. I think that's my main point out of all of this. In general, I think older adults discriminate (those damned teenagers!) and this is why some people might tend to lie about their age. Because they know if they appear to be older they will be taken more seriously.
The reason I brought up all the pre-frontal cortex stuff was because I know that older adults aren't completely unjustified in assuming this. It's just a bias that's built up in their minds based on the young adults they've had experiences with as well as the misconceptions that have come out of society and been implanted into their minds. And yeah a lot of young adults they'll come into contact with will probably align with their current views of young adults which will further emphasize their bias even if they do come into contact with some young adults who are very matured for their age.
I'm most likely not coming across as clear as I would have liked this post to be but I'm at work and can't devote anymore time to this until I get ahead in my paperwork. I probably won't reply again after this post. Depends on how badly I fucked up my point I suppose. I'll try and keep it brief next time.
Yes a lot of older people fuck up and make poor decisions but it's a bigger problem in younger adults.
Actually I am not even sure that's true. I read somewhere that the reason you get the impression that young adults fuck it up more often is because when young adults do it, it's more likely to be accounted for. It's looked down upon in young adults, it's easier for adults to marry without suspicion than young adults, as well as abort, for that matter (talking about teenage pregnancies here since that's generally the statistic that gets collected, also note the term "teenage", so if it's not teenage it's not recorded), and adults do not have the "she was too young" issue, as well. So, for all I know, all this "young people can't control themselves" can be complete garbage and pure ageism and actually a consequences of the simple "people can't control themselves", which seems much closer to the truth.
Oh, and there are lies, more lies, and statistics.
"We usually don't hire anyone under 25. It's not a job where you can go out partying all night and wake up at 5am and go to work. You need to be alert and ready to work."
Then there's GaTech where people really do not party (we still do not get enough sleep but that's usually homework). I guess that's also why GaTech people get hired younger than 25. Where do we and other hard colleges fit in?
Do you realize that the partying mindset is supported by media (college is viewed as a party), colleges, and generally there are more partying colleges than hard colleges, and hard colleges are looked down upon because you're wasting your life away and all that rubbish? Would you expect young people to, on average, be inclined to be party people (when that's supported by society) or hard work people (when that's looked down upon by society AT THAT AGE, when that doesn't really earn crazy money [in the end it doesn't earn money at all but nvm that])? So is it your stupid brain or maybe it's society again?
When we are talking about average, (not you, not me, not Meph), society > brain. By far. Trust me.
He was being biased and assuming I was irresponsible and rash. I think that's my main point out of all of this. In general, I think older adults discriminate (those damned teenagers!) and this is why some people might tend to lie about their age. Because they know if they appear to be older they will be taken more seriously.
Certainly true. But I believe adults are largely responsible for why teenagers are what they are.
People tried to get me to smoke at 10, I didn't. Stuff like making sure doctors didn't use used syringes on me, I had to keep track of that. I was alone from a pretty young age in Ukraine. Still didn't do anything stupid. If anything, the most stupid things so far were done quite recently, but nothing significant.
In fact, to this day, I don't do anything that wasn't analyzed somewhat, first. I do not make any actions without thinking about them first. So if someone randomly asks me to do something significant I block out completely and it's not going to happen. Most people, on the other hand, have Kirk type of thinking. They jump before they look at whatever the hell they're jumping at. Which means 9/10 you're going to fall off a cliff.
And you know what? Our society likes that mentality. Which is why we to this day have people doing stupid things like that and not thinking it's a personal, rather than a developmental, problem.
Yea see I tried smoking, I've done my fair share of pot, I drink. Those are all probably things I shouldn't have done but I did them anyways. I think a lot of it was to do with peer pressure at the time but in either case I remember thinking I shouldn't do it but did anyways. Now it's different. I'm obviously much more capable at controlling my emotions. My last relationship in the beginning we did stupid shit. Had sex without a condom. I knew better. Totally knew better. But we were in the moment. We wanted it then and there so we did it. Two years later we wouldn't even THINK about having unprotected sex. Obviously we had both gone through a significant point in our mental development.
I love the fact that you used a Star Trek analogy lol.
But this is such a common thinking mode though. Doesn't that alone tell you common thinking like that is for common people? That's lack of will, nothing else. It means that the id controls the ego. And that kind of thing separates man from animal it has nothing to do with age.
I like that you brought up id over ego. Psychodynamic perspective ftw. The id might drive the ego but it does not control it. When you are born you're driven solely by impulse. But the ego begins to mature as you age. It has to develop. The ego lets you satisfy the id in a realistic way but it can only do that so much as it has developed. So age is definitely a factor.
Lol I can't contribute to this conversation anymore. Too time consuming but it's definitely been fun and enlightening to do so. Cheers! I will quickly reply to your post.
Actually I am not even sure that's true. I read somewhere that the reason you get the impression that young adults fuck it up more often is because when young adults do it, it's more likely to be accounted for. It's looked down upon in young adults, it's easier for adults to marry without suspicion than young adults, as well as abort, for that matter (talking about teenage pregnancies here since that's generally the statistic that gets collected, also note the term "teenage", so if it's not teenage it's not recorded), and adults do not have the "she was too young" issue, as well. So, for all I know, all this "young people can't control themselves" can be complete garbage and pure ageism and actually a consequences of the simple "people can't control themselves", which seems much closer to the truth.
Oh, and there are lies, more lies, and statistics.
Was this article online 'cause I would actually be really interested to read it. I love this stuff.
Do you realize that the partying mindset is supported by media (college is viewed as a party), colleges, and generally there are more partying colleges than hard colleges, and hard colleges are looked down upon because you're wasting your life away and all that rubbish? Would you expect young people to, on average, be inclined to be party people (when that's supported by society) or hard work people (when that's looked down upon by society AT THAT AGE, when that doesn't really earn crazy money [in the end it doesn't earn money at all but nvm that])? So is it your stupid brain or maybe it's society again?
When we are talking about average, (not you, not me, not Meph), society > brain. By far. Trust me.
YES! I completely agree. I think I may have mentioned somewhere that culture and society is a factor. And today in our culture and society media is HUGE.
Certainly true. But I believe adults are largely responsible for why teenagers are what they are.
For sure. In the first 5 years of life children are almost solely exposed to their parents. Which means everything they experience and learn is through them. Parents definitely have a huge impact on kids, even in adolescence. I think peers is a major factor to though. I wrote a paper on it.
For sure. In the first 5 years of life children are almost solely exposed to their parents. Which means everything they experience and learn is through them. Parents definitely have a huge impact on kids, even in adolescence. I think peers is a major factor to though. I wrote a paper on it.
It's not just parents. Pretty much everything adolescents are exposed to is produced by adults. The aforementioned media, for example. Public education, higher education. General socially accepted morality. Companies and businesses.
Every time you 9as an adult) are blaming a younger generation for something you're blaming them for reacting to something you have produced...
Again all you're discussing goes back to lack of willpower and no discipline. Which is the plight of young people because they're never taught to be responsible. THAT is why they do those things, it's NOT part of growing up (when most people grew up, smoking didn't exist, btw), because growing up is defined differently for every coming generation. People who grew up during a war have it very different and are not allowed to do all the stupid things you people have done. Because bigger things are at stake.
Loss of control, loss of things at stake, lack of consequences, those things cause that kind of stuff, not "oh I'm growing up / I'm aroused / I can't control myself it's not my fault".
Actually doing "bad" things as a child/teenager has very little to do with discipline and will power. Younger people do these things because they are testing their boundaries and capabilities within themselves, family, and society. The reason why older people do not do "bad" things as much is because they have already tested these things out. This does not mean that every child wants to do everything they can that is bad, there are morals and upbringing that influence these choices. Most children who are denied this chance to test themselves often result in ill-adjusted adults because they never got to find their limits.
BTW: I am about a year away from getting my master's in child development
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Actually doing "bad" things as a child/teenager has very little to do with discipline and will power. Younger people do these things because they are testing their boundaries and capabilities within themselves, family, and society.
That would be true if that was actually their conscious task. But that's hardly how the behavior is justified most often. It's not "I'll do this and get away with it". It's "I know I really shouldn't do this but, but, but...". I believe these statements are different to the core. Having sex without protection is not a boundary test. Getting drunk when you shouldn't have is not a boundary test. Procrastinating when you should have written that report is not a boundary test. These are directly linked to will power and as a professional procrastinator I should know.
Breaking a rule in school is pushing boundaries. Not doing what you were told is. But that's not what we're discussing here.
Most children who are denied this chance to test themselves often result in ill-adjusted adults because they never got to find their limits.
Most adults are ill adjusted. Your point being?
Being a lifetime smoker (god forbid a drug addict) with a kid you didn't really want but ended up having anyway, and having little to no education or education in an unhelpful field, is considered well-adjusted? Since when?
Started games: ~4? There is this old video of me getting Super Mario Land for the Game Boy when we lived at our old house. We left there when I was ~4.75
Games now: Alien Swarm/NWN2/D2/Commandos 2/Civ5/Oblivion/Half Life series.
Actually doing "bad" things as a child/teenager has very little to do with discipline and will power. Younger people do these things because they are testing their boundaries and capabilities within themselves, family, and society.
That would be true if that was actually their conscious task. But that's hardly how the behavior is justified most often. It's not "I'll do this and get away with it". It's "I know I really shouldn't do this but, but, but...". I believe these statements are different to the core. Having sex without protection is not a boundary test. Getting drunk when you shouldn't have is not a boundary test. Procrastinating when you should have written that report is not a boundary test. These are directly linked to will power and as a professional procrastinator I should know.
Breaking a rule in school is pushing boundaries. Not doing what you were told is. But that's not what we're discussing here.
Most children who are denied this chance to test themselves often result in ill-adjusted adults because they never got to find their limits.
Most adults are ill adjusted. Your point being?
Being a lifetime smoker (god forbid a drug addict) with a kid you didn't really want but ended up having anyway, and having little to no education or education in an unhelpful field, is considered well-adjusted? Since when?
Boundary tests are rarely done on a conscious level. They are more of ways living life and learning from their outcomes. Life is hardly as scientific as setting up an hypothesis, testing it and drawing a conclusion. Yes, it is more on a subconcious level. When a kid procrastinates, they are seeing what benefits and punishments there are to it. If they experience little punishment, then they are likely to repeat this. Once it creates a great deal of punishment, they are likely to stop. There is always addicting personalities that conflict with this which is where will power comes in but the foundation of development is from testing boundaries. It is the same way a baby falls off a ledge for the first time and the subconciously learn that something needs to be under them. This physical test is the same for mental and social development.
As for most adults being I'll-adjusted, it's just not true. While nobody is perfect, that does not make them I'll-adjusted. As for having unwanted babies, these are usually younger people andare still learning from life experiences.
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No man. If you had a baby at a young age, and that baby did not get disposed of somehow, your life is officially over as anything that could have been proper and you have officially broken it. Some people just see it as part of life but that kind of shit is something I want to avoid for myself, my children, my grandchildren, and mankind at large. And when you have that happening on a massive level you know you're going to get a whole batch of badly raised kids.
Most adults are broken. By broken I mean unhappy, emotionally AND mentally. And that does not look like well-adjusted to me, it just doesn't.
And, seriously, walking a few miles to school has nothing to do with a hard life. I did that, now I drive for an hour. I'm not sure what's worse, at least the walking gave me exercise, driving just puts me in danger of being hit by all those commercial trucks...
How hard something is is generally relative to the expected outcome. We have internet, but the stuff we need to do these days is bigger and longer. We don't need to walk but we also have less time for everything. Because we these things, they expect more of us. And if you're going to come back to the situation your parents were in, you will be fucked, because nobody else is in that situation. It's relative. It's why the "I paid my way into college" argument is faulty. That's why people in the same situation as their parents long ago are much more screwed than their parents were.
Also, the punishments for various rule breakings and mistakes and the like are very through the roof lately. You can get a criminal record really, really fast for the most sub-innocent thing and have fun trying to pull your career with that. You can get in trouble for a freaking Facebook message. If you ask me there's actually a lot more room for pitfalls these days because we're getting into a slight police state.
But discipline has nothing to do with that. That's a trait that's very important to your general well-being, both in terms of achievement and in terms of being able to keep your head level with everyone else. It's independent of what you did or why. It's just a matter of being able to get things done, being able to say no when you should, and overall keeping your mental state stronger than your animal state.
Started games: ~4? There is this old video of me getting Super Mario Land for the Game Boy when we lived at our old house. We left there when I was ~4.75
Games now: Alien Swarm/NWN2/D2/Commandos 2/Civ5/Oblivion/Half Life series.
3. I have recently started my pilgrimage back to my Nes and Snes for some retro gaming :thumbsup: Long live Mario Kart on the Snes
Oh yeah! I've still got a SNES with Mario Kart at my parent's house. I used to be able to win 150 cc races, but now I can't even get past the rainbow cup 100cc.
I recently got sucked back into Mario 3 - quit again, thumbs got sore - jump higher damn you jump.
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Smiling is infectious.
Give, expecting nothing thereof. ------------ BoD - Come have some fun! Folks will always come and go, so enjoy them while they're meant to be in your life.
i'm currently 26 and i've been playing since i was 10. Super Mario Bros for the NES was my very first (together with Tetris and i moved right to Zelda after that).
currently i'm mostly playing MMOs or RPGs with some breaks for the regular sports games.
World of Warcraft is the one that takes most of my time, Dragon Age: Origins, Risen, The Witcher, all of the Gothic series (except for the newest that i got to buy) and the Lands of Lore series. From sports games i'm mostly into Pro Evolution Soccer 2011 and NBA 2k11 right now.
It is yes but not entirely.
As I said the pre-frontal cortex only fully develops around the age of 20. So if you're 18 years old and you're pre-frontal cortex (the last part of the brain that matures) is not fully developed, your decision making and ability to control impulses probably won't be as great as a 25-30 year old. In my example with the unprotected sex someone could very well know the consequences but when the time arrives is just overwhelmed by the sexual desire. The person might be thinking "Oh man this is awesome we can totally have sex right now. I don't have a condom though. I don't want to get her pregnant. But it feels so good. I really shouldn't. But it feels so good. She probably won't get pregnant. What are the odds? I'll pull out. I'm going for it!"
As you said, yeah it has to do with knowledge and experience (being a product of your environment) but it also has to do with biology.
Dude, stop generalizing, seriously. I haven't made any wrong decision thus far in my life. Nothing worthy of mentioning, at least. I've always known what I want to major in, I've always had a plan, and I take decisions accordingly. Grown ass people still make adolescent mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, be it in decision making, or in baking a cake, irrespective of their age. The condom example you gave is really, really null. Uneducated households contains a large number of children (in most cases). That's because grown ass people, the man and the woman, don't even know about contraceptive methods. It's not about age, it's about frikkin' exposure. In this day and age, if you're older than 10-12, and still don't know what a condom is, you might have an extra number 13 chromosome.
Pre frontal cortex or whatever, your BASE is there when you're 15-16-17-whatever. Anything that happens in your brain after that is just not that big of a deal (more so at later ages, anyway. In the 17-20 region). When the hormonal surge stops, you become to think more clearly, as opposed to the "everybody is a dumbass motherfucker who just doesn't get me" mindset that everyone is in during their teen years. Making wrong decisions isn't based on age. 50 year olds make dumb as fuck decisions, and 18 year olds make smart as fuck decisions. There is no rule governing these situations.
You're citing an irrelevant example. A guy should know what kind of girl he's having sex with. The girl should take oral contraceptives, use an IUD, or whatever, which can fully substitute for a condom. Old people make the mistake you just cited, not just teenagers. Hell, the age gap between myself and my brother is 13 years..something tells me my dad wasn't feeling like putting on a condom 19 years ago, because "it felt so good", or whatever. There. That's a good example, as opposed to the one you gave, which is vague and doesn't apply to what we're talking about, at all. My brother remained a douche who ignored all the important things in life, and instead spent several years fucking around. He graduated when he was 27-28. That means he didn't start university properly until he was about 25. So much for your pre-frontal cortex theory always applying to decision making prowess, or whatever.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
And if you're going to point at me and say "oh but you're a girl", but you can't say there's no guy on the planet that didn't have sex at a wrong time?
I had my "temptations", too. At different stages. At age 7 or so I was asked by a friend if I want to drive in the same car as him. That was considered a bad idea in Ukraine due to kidnapping or whatever. I didn't. People tried to get me to smoke at 10, I didn't. Stuff like making sure doctors didn't use used syringes on me, I had to keep track of that. I was alone from a pretty young age in Ukraine. Still didn't do anything stupid. If anything, the most stupid things so far were done quite recently, but nothing significant.
In fact, to this day, I don't do anything that wasn't analyzed somewhat, first. I do not make any actions without thinking about them first. So if someone randomly asks me to do something significant I block out completely and it's not going to happen. Most people, on the other hand, have Kirk type of thinking. They jump before they look at whatever the hell they're jumping at. Which means 9/10 you're going to fall off a cliff.
And you know what? Our society likes that mentality. Which is why we to this day have people doing stupid things like that and not thinking it's a personal, rather than a developmental, problem.
But this is such a common thinking mode though. Doesn't that alone tell you common thinking like that is for common people? That's lack of will, nothing else. It means that the id controls the ego. And that kind of thing separates man from animal it has nothing to do with age.
I'm not really talking about mistakes. I'm talking about judgement and umpulses. Yes younger people do tend to give in to umpulses and make poor judgment calls because of their lack of experience but it's also due to biology, as many studies have now demonstrated.
You're right of course. People make poor judgment calls all the time, regardless of their age. The point I was trying to make is there is reason that older people tend to look to younger people as being less intelligent or whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean they're right since I don't think intelligence has anything to do with the reasoning behind their bias. I just think that grown adults see young adults as inexperienced and lacking in certain judgemental skills and impulse control (partying, drugs, sex, etc.) I agree in many cases it's unwarranted but so is a lot of other bias we see in our society.
A guy should know, yes. And they should use some form of birth control, yes. But they don't always do. You're completely ignoring statistics. Yes a lot of older people fuck up and make poor decisions but it's a bigger problem in younger adults. The pre-fontal cortex theory is not my theory. It's the results of hundreds of MRI studies of adolesecent brain development. I did not say it always applies to decision making. I said some people will develop earlier and others later but on average it's around the age of 20.
I agree with everything you've said so far. Maybe I'm not getting my point across clearly enough. I tend to do that a lot. I'm saying on average older people view younger adults as being less experienced, foolish, naive, etc. Not ALL older adults think this. Some do. Likewise, not ALL younger adults are less experienced, foolish or naive. Some are. They complete their physical development and they learn from their experiences. What I'm saying is, there is a typical age that a person accumulates enough experience and has developed enough that they start to exhibit more adult-like behaviour. There ARE exceptions. On average, it seems to be around age 20.
I'd also like to state based on my experience in the job market I've seen plenty of discrimination of people less than 25 years old. The reasoning being they won't take the job as seriously, they're less experienced, etc. I've been refused jobs for this reason. See where I'm working now though, they took the chance. They were uncertain whether to hire me and the general manager even told me. "We usually don't hire anyone under 25. It's not a job where you can go out partying all night and wake up at 5am and go to work. You need to be alert and ready to work." He was being biased and assuming I was irresponsible and rash. I think that's my main point out of all of this. In general, I think older adults discriminate (those damned teenagers!) and this is why some people might tend to lie about their age. Because they know if they appear to be older they will be taken more seriously.
The reason I brought up all the pre-frontal cortex stuff was because I know that older adults aren't completely unjustified in assuming this. It's just a bias that's built up in their minds based on the young adults they've had experiences with as well as the misconceptions that have come out of society and been implanted into their minds. And yeah a lot of young adults they'll come into contact with will probably align with their current views of young adults which will further emphasize their bias even if they do come into contact with some young adults who are very matured for their age.
I'm most likely not coming across as clear as I would have liked this post to be but I'm at work and can't devote anymore time to this until I get ahead in my paperwork. I probably won't reply again after this post. Depends on how badly I fucked up my point I suppose. I'll try and keep it brief next time.
Oh, and there are lies, more lies, and statistics.
Then there's GaTech where people really do not party (we still do not get enough sleep but that's usually homework). I guess that's also why GaTech people get hired younger than 25. Where do we and other hard colleges fit in?
Do you realize that the partying mindset is supported by media (college is viewed as a party), colleges, and generally there are more partying colleges than hard colleges, and hard colleges are looked down upon because you're wasting your life away and all that rubbish? Would you expect young people to, on average, be inclined to be party people (when that's supported by society) or hard work people (when that's looked down upon by society AT THAT AGE, when that doesn't really earn crazy money [in the end it doesn't earn money at all but nvm that])? So is it your stupid brain or maybe it's society again?
When we are talking about average, (not you, not me, not Meph), society > brain. By far. Trust me.
Certainly true. But I believe adults are largely responsible for why teenagers are what they are.
It has a lot to do with that I'm sure. But it's not JUST a discipline issue. It's the combination of multiple things.
Yea see I tried smoking, I've done my fair share of pot, I drink. Those are all probably things I shouldn't have done but I did them anyways. I think a lot of it was to do with peer pressure at the time but in either case I remember thinking I shouldn't do it but did anyways. Now it's different. I'm obviously much more capable at controlling my emotions. My last relationship in the beginning we did stupid shit. Had sex without a condom. I knew better. Totally knew better. But we were in the moment. We wanted it then and there so we did it. Two years later we wouldn't even THINK about having unprotected sex. Obviously we had both gone through a significant point in our mental development.
I love the fact that you used a Star Trek analogy lol.
I like that you brought up id over ego. Psychodynamic perspective ftw. The id might drive the ego but it does not control it. When you are born you're driven solely by impulse. But the ego begins to mature as you age. It has to develop. The ego lets you satisfy the id in a realistic way but it can only do that so much as it has developed. So age is definitely a factor.
Was this article online 'cause I would actually be really interested to read it. I love this stuff.
YES! I completely agree. I think I may have mentioned somewhere that culture and society is a factor. And today in our culture and society media is HUGE.
For sure. In the first 5 years of life children are almost solely exposed to their parents. Which means everything they experience and learn is through them. Parents definitely have a huge impact on kids, even in adolescence. I think peers is a major factor to though. I wrote a paper on it.
It's not just parents. Pretty much everything adolescents are exposed to is produced by adults. The aforementioned media, for example. Public education, higher education. General socially accepted morality. Companies and businesses.
Every time you 9as an adult) are blaming a younger generation for something you're blaming them for reacting to something you have produced...
Loss of control, loss of things at stake, lack of consequences, those things cause that kind of stuff, not "oh I'm growing up / I'm aroused / I can't control myself it's not my fault".
BTW: I am about a year away from getting my master's in child development
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Breaking a rule in school is pushing boundaries. Not doing what you were told is. But that's not what we're discussing here.
Most adults are ill adjusted. Your point being?
Being a lifetime smoker (god forbid a drug addict) with a kid you didn't really want but ended up having anyway, and having little to no education or education in an unhelpful field, is considered well-adjusted? Since when?
>.>
Age: 21 for 1.5 months
Started games: ~4? There is this old video of me getting Super Mario Land for the Game Boy when we lived at our old house. We left there when I was ~4.75
Games now: Alien Swarm/NWN2/D2/Commandos 2/Civ5/Oblivion/Half Life series.
Have fun with your conversation!
*Shat out*
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As for most adults being I'll-adjusted, it's just not true. While nobody is perfect, that does not make them I'll-adjusted. As for having unwanted babies, these are usually younger people andare still learning from life experiences.
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Most adults are broken. By broken I mean unhappy, emotionally AND mentally. And that does not look like well-adjusted to me, it just doesn't.
And, seriously, walking a few miles to school has nothing to do with a hard life. I did that, now I drive for an hour. I'm not sure what's worse, at least the walking gave me exercise, driving just puts me in danger of being hit by all those commercial trucks...
How hard something is is generally relative to the expected outcome. We have internet, but the stuff we need to do these days is bigger and longer. We don't need to walk but we also have less time for everything. Because we these things, they expect more of us. And if you're going to come back to the situation your parents were in, you will be fucked, because nobody else is in that situation. It's relative. It's why the "I paid my way into college" argument is faulty. That's why people in the same situation as their parents long ago are much more screwed than their parents were.
Also, the punishments for various rule breakings and mistakes and the like are very through the roof lately. You can get a criminal record really, really fast for the most sub-innocent thing and have fun trying to pull your career with that. You can get in trouble for a freaking Facebook message. If you ask me there's actually a lot more room for pitfalls these days because we're getting into a slight police state.
But discipline has nothing to do with that. That's a trait that's very important to your general well-being, both in terms of achievement and in terms of being able to keep your head level with everyone else. It's independent of what you did or why. It's just a matter of being able to get things done, being able to say no when you should, and overall keeping your mental state stronger than your animal state.
Shat out..hehe
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Oh yeah! I've still got a SNES with Mario Kart at my parent's house. I used to be able to win 150 cc races, but now I can't even get past the rainbow cup 100cc.
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Folks will always come and go, so enjoy them while they're meant to be in your life.
currently i'm mostly playing MMOs or RPGs with some breaks for the regular sports games.
World of Warcraft is the one that takes most of my time, Dragon Age: Origins, Risen, The Witcher, all of the Gothic series (except for the newest that i got to buy) and the Lands of Lore series. From sports games i'm mostly into Pro Evolution Soccer 2011 and NBA 2k11 right now.