Since not everyone reads the comments in the news posts, I'm going to make my post here in the forum and possibly get some discussion going. We're hearing about "nerfs" that are going to show up in the new patch from datamining. These nerfs are buffs in disguise due to changes to the system. A lot of people are guessing damage reduction is changing, but I really think it's more simple than that... I think it's balancing that's comming due to the CC changes they already mentioned in their blog. my original responce in the news post is as follows:
My guess is this has a lot to do with the CC changes comming down the pipe. We already heard they are going to remove the CC reduction for inferno (on the first hit anyway) and have the CC resistance stack with each new CC. I imagine this means that some of the existing CC numbers and timers are going to come down.
When we see the datamine changes we'll see things like "stun duration reduced from 10 seconds to 8 seconds" and think "NERF!" but the reality is that in inferno we only get a 6 second stun in the current game due to CC reduction. With the changes, we'll actually be GAINING another 2 seconds to the stun, but the tooltip change and datamined information will not make us realize that's what's happening.
I'm fairly certain this won't have much to do with Damage at all.
The thing is they only said "it will looks like a lot of classes got nerfed" they didn't state WHY we would think that. usually when numbers come down either in damage or CC it's considered a nerf to a class. My guess is we are being "nerfed" in how long we can lock an opponent down.
Honestly a few seconds of stun can make a huge difference when played well. It helps your surviability more than your killing power, but it is something that affects how you play your class based on what build you use.
Its changes necessary for pvp I'm guessing. They had no choice really because people were going to be one shot. My guess is crit damage will get nerfed big time and monster hp will be reduced to compensate.
My own guess is that there are going to add the "/players" command or something similar, while lowering the damage/health on /players 1. At the same time, skill damage will be nerfed to compensate for this drop in difficulty, but overall ppl would still be killing faster than presently. Remember d2 on /players 1? super fast and efficient.
For players with great gear, they can go up to /players X for a bigger challenge depending on how good their gear is. Similar to d2, e more /players, e more loot will drop.
Another buff they might add is to tweak e drop rates. Jay said that: "The new legendaries are a big step in the right direction, as are tweaks to item drop rates. But I'm not convinced that we've gone far enough. If you don't have that great feeling of a good drop being right around the corner -- and the burst of excitement when it finally arrives -- then we haven't done our jobs right. Out of our concern to make sure that Diablo III would have longevity, we were overly cautious about how we handled item drops and affixes. If 1.0.4 hasn’t fixed that, you can be sure we'll continue to address it" - hopefully they buff e rates to e pt that players are able to find great gear on their own instead of just always turning to the AH for upgrades.
Honestly a few seconds of stun can make a huge difference when played well. It helps your surviability more than your killing power, but it is something that affects how you play your class based on what build you use.
I've been using Frost Nova for a long time even before knowing about the CC changes for exactly that reason. Even a 1s full stop on a group of enemies gives you a lot of breathing room to reposition and recover. It's especially effective in public games to keep other players alive. The trick is you have to supplement it with other skills and gear to be effective.
Also I agree on the notion that the "illusionary nerf" will pertain to the CC change.
Well I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong. Looks like there is a change to incomming damage to prevent defense abilities being required. But at the same time...
My own guess is that there are going to add the "/players" command or something similar, while lowering the damage/health on /players 1. At the same time, skill damage will be nerfed to compensate for this drop in difficulty, but overall ppl would still be killing faster than presently. Remember d2 on /players 1? super fast and efficient.
For players with great gear, they can go up to /players X for a bigger challenge depending on how good their gear is. Similar to d2, e more /players, e more loot will drop.
They mentioned they wanted to do this and it looks like it will be in 1.0.5, sooner than I thought it would be. Excellent. I also look forward to this infernal machine that looks to bring back the "Uber" system that D2 used.
As for the pvp balancing I see comments on: I remember quite a while ago that I saw some datamined text about a buff called something like pvp balancing(dot) So I think that wouldn't be such a problem, or, knowing blizz ofcourse it will "hehe"smiley I can't post because I cant post links yet
I don't think the CC changes make much difference in terms of killability.
If you are using CC to stun-lock, there is no change. You gain the ability to use it sparingly at full effectiveness, but because it's only sparingly, it'll just reduce kiting a little and give you a few more burn opportunities... I don't think it'll make much difference except in fun/build variety,
I imagine it;s more along the kind of... some weapon damage multipliers go down because some base damage gets added, for example. It is unlikely to be that, but that kind of thing...
The issue is many stunning moves aren't worth picking because consistent damage mitigation is a better option right now. A perfect example is the barb, I don't bother with any of the CC's because I can reduce damage I take by a significant amount and stuns don't last long enough on elites. It should hopefully make many non-used CC abilities more worthwhile to pick... I miss ground stomp.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Considering the amount of people concerned that PvP will be a massacre with all the damage going around, it seems counter-intuitive for them to nerf defensive skills.
I am curious how this change is preparing for PvP...? Its a good change for build diversity for pve no doubt. Maybe Blizzard internal testing is showing that builds with 5 defensive skills > builds with 1 defensive skills in PvP? Maybe this change has nothing to do with PvP?
Pointless post and faulty assumptions are a bitch.
You are not going to see "10 seconds reduced to 8" type things at all. So even trying to start a convo on that premise is fail.
If you read what the devs actually said they said that each successive CC is going to grant mobs stacking CC reduction. If you used common sense this means that the abilities themselves won't be changed at all. What will change is that monsters will get more resistance to them as more CC is used on them.
... and now we know they're nerfing defensive abilities, and nerfing monster damage more. So if you're running a glass-cannon build, you're in luck
In the end, this is probably for the best. You'll still take more damage than other builds but you'll have a chance to get away rather than insta-death. The way it should be.
The issue is many stunning moves aren't worth picking because consistent damage mitigation is a better option right now. A perfect example is the barb, I don't bother with any of the CC's because I can reduce damage I take by a significant amount and stuns don't last long enough on elites. It should hopefully make many non-used CC abilities more worthwhile to pick... I miss ground stomp.
I feel the same way with current builds. I used to love wrenching smash as I leveled because it let me control a large group monsters and either take them all down at once or pull them into a tight space so I can get awhile while they're stunned. In inferno it doesn't seem worth it to stun for 2 seconds when I can use Ignore Pain for 5 seconds or more still.
Considering the amount of people concerned that PvP will be a massacre with all the damage going around, it seems counter-intuitive for them to nerf defensive skills.
I am curious how this change is preparing for PvP...? Its a good change for build diversity for pve no doubt. Maybe Blizzard internal testing is showing that builds with 5 defensive skills > builds with 1 defensive skills in PvP? Maybe this change has nothing to do with PvP?
Watching with interest...
I have a feeling there's going to be a natural resistance to player damage, kind of like the base resilience system used in WoW. Because the system is so different from the PvE side, they can do whatever they want with the numbers to make it work.
Pointless post and faulty assumptions are a bitch.
You are not going to see "10 seconds reduced to 8" type things at all. So even trying to start a convo on that premise is fail.
If you read what the devs actually said they said that each successive CC is going to grant mobs stacking CC reduction. If you used common sense this means that the abilities themselves won't be changed at all. What will change is that monsters will get more resistance to them as more CC is used on them.
Long story short, this thread is pointless.
Awww, don't be a grumpy Gus, I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies, bro.
Let me explain why it's not a pointless post and why others before you seemed to have been able to contribute constructively.
You see this is a discussion piece. Something along the lines of "here's my theory based on what Blizzard has said, it's unorthodox and could be interesting." It would then possibly spark other people to come up with their own interpretations of what Blizzard has said and we might be able to guess the changes made.
As for how I made my theory and what my assumptions are, it was fairly simple and not faulty at all. Blizzard tells us CC is changing. They tell us that the reduction of CC duration is not going to happen for the first hit anymore (I stress first hit again, as a faulty assumption you made is I did not understand the Blue post explaining the changes) and the CC reduction will ramp up as a monster is controlled. Now, this could lead Blizzard to think the controls are too much for inferno (for initial hits and long cooldown abilities) now and want to bring the numbers down...
Now Blizzard tells us that there are things in the patch that could be seen as a nerf, but due to the system changing they are actually a buff. At the TIME OF THE POST the only system change we had heard about was to CC. This is a perfectly rational assumption to make based on the evidence. A reduction of a CC ability like I mentioned "10 seconds reduced to 8" is still a buff when that CC was originally being reduced to 6 seconds.
So I'm not sure how you think my original post was faulty or pointless, I think I followed the trend of what they were saying fairly well. Of course, my assumption was wrong (which, by the way, I did admit to in a previous post above) but I still stand by the logic that lead me to that conclusion. There wasn't enough information at the time to prove or disprove my theory and I see no reason why it would be pointless especially since it did get some conversation going.
I hope that makes it a bit more clear and I hope your day improves, sir.
Honestly a few seconds of stun can make a huge difference when played well. It helps your surviability more than your killing power, but it is something that affects how you play your class based on what build you use.
For players with great gear, they can go up to /players X for a bigger challenge depending on how good their gear is. Similar to d2, e more /players, e more loot will drop.
Another buff they might add is to tweak e drop rates. Jay said that: "The new legendaries are a big step in the right direction, as are tweaks to item drop rates. But I'm not convinced that we've gone far enough. If you don't have that great feeling of a good drop being right around the corner -- and the burst of excitement when it finally arrives -- then we haven't done our jobs right. Out of our concern to make sure that Diablo III would have longevity, we were overly cautious about how we handled item drops and affixes. If 1.0.4 hasn’t fixed that, you can be sure we'll continue to address it" - hopefully they buff e rates to e pt that players are able to find great gear on their own instead of just always turning to the AH for upgrades.
Also I agree on the notion that the "illusionary nerf" will pertain to the CC change.
They mentioned they wanted to do this and it looks like it will be in 1.0.5, sooner than I thought it would be. Excellent. I also look forward to this infernal machine that looks to bring back the "Uber" system that D2 used.
I laughed. Even if you were right, there will be still be reasons for some people not getting through Act 3!
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The issue is many stunning moves aren't worth picking because consistent damage mitigation is a better option right now. A perfect example is the barb, I don't bother with any of the CC's because I can reduce damage I take by a significant amount and stuns don't last long enough on elites. It should hopefully make many non-used CC abilities more worthwhile to pick... I miss ground stomp.
I am curious how this change is preparing for PvP...? Its a good change for build diversity for pve no doubt. Maybe Blizzard internal testing is showing that builds with 5 defensive skills > builds with 1 defensive skills in PvP? Maybe this change has nothing to do with PvP?
Watching with interest...
You are not going to see "10 seconds reduced to 8" type things at all. So even trying to start a convo on that premise is fail.
If you read what the devs actually said they said that each successive CC is going to grant mobs stacking CC reduction. If you used common sense this means that the abilities themselves won't be changed at all. What will change is that monsters will get more resistance to them as more CC is used on them.
Long story short, this thread is pointless.
In the end, this is probably for the best. You'll still take more damage than other builds but you'll have a chance to get away rather than insta-death. The way it should be.
I feel the same way with current builds. I used to love wrenching smash as I leveled because it let me control a large group monsters and either take them all down at once or pull them into a tight space so I can get awhile while they're stunned. In inferno it doesn't seem worth it to stun for 2 seconds when I can use Ignore Pain for 5 seconds or more still.
I have a feeling there's going to be a natural resistance to player damage, kind of like the base resilience system used in WoW. Because the system is so different from the PvE side, they can do whatever they want with the numbers to make it work.
Awww, don't be a grumpy Gus, I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies, bro.
Let me explain why it's not a pointless post and why others before you seemed to have been able to contribute constructively.
You see this is a discussion piece. Something along the lines of "here's my theory based on what Blizzard has said, it's unorthodox and could be interesting." It would then possibly spark other people to come up with their own interpretations of what Blizzard has said and we might be able to guess the changes made.
As for how I made my theory and what my assumptions are, it was fairly simple and not faulty at all. Blizzard tells us CC is changing. They tell us that the reduction of CC duration is not going to happen for the first hit anymore (I stress first hit again, as a faulty assumption you made is I did not understand the Blue post explaining the changes) and the CC reduction will ramp up as a monster is controlled. Now, this could lead Blizzard to think the controls are too much for inferno (for initial hits and long cooldown abilities) now and want to bring the numbers down...
Now Blizzard tells us that there are things in the patch that could be seen as a nerf, but due to the system changing they are actually a buff. At the TIME OF THE POST the only system change we had heard about was to CC. This is a perfectly rational assumption to make based on the evidence. A reduction of a CC ability like I mentioned "10 seconds reduced to 8" is still a buff when that CC was originally being reduced to 6 seconds.
So I'm not sure how you think my original post was faulty or pointless, I think I followed the trend of what they were saying fairly well. Of course, my assumption was wrong (which, by the way, I did admit to in a previous post above) but I still stand by the logic that lead me to that conclusion. There wasn't enough information at the time to prove or disprove my theory and I see no reason why it would be pointless especially since it did get some conversation going.
I hope that makes it a bit more clear and I hope your day improves, sir.