Except Rift IS actually better than WoW. Better PvE because you have people raiding all levels and tiers of difficulty and not just the same raid over and over every week and better class design and customization. Also they add raid content a lot faster than Blizzard does but even when new raids are added people still do the old raids to gear up for the new raids. They dont waste content.
Sure the rest are flops but I wish idiots would stop saying a game sucks just because 10 million people arent playing. I would put WoW as the 5th best MMO ever released and I have played 9. I would put Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Rift ahead of it based on amount of fun had while playing. I mean last time I checked its about fun. I dont care if only 100 people are playing a certain MMO if I enjoy it then Im going to play it. Numbers dont mean a damn thing unless you are the company and are concerned about profit. And even a game with only 100k players can turn a profit.
I find it funny that someone comes here and says that MMOs aren't about how many people are playing, but about how much fun people are having. For the record, I think RIFT is basically as good of a game as trying to dodge monkey shit at the zoo, but that's me.
And, yet, we *still* have people making the argument that WoW is dead because they lost subs, or that D3 is dead because they lost subs. I simply don't understand how when it comes to denigrating WoW, or D3, that the # of subs is either of utmost importance in determining the quality of the game, or it's thrown directly out the window as a meaningless metric - but it's never used in Blizzard's favor. That gives us a lot of insight as to the expectations that the consumers place on Blizzard, but never on the competition.
[stupidity]Obviously Rift is better than WoW. I mean it has to be right? They have ~12% of the active subs that WoW has. Being so far behind in sub numbers can only mean that Rift is better that WoW.[/stupidity]
OT: What does the MoP release spell for D3? Nothing. D3 is nothing more than a casual pick up and play for a while kind of game. There really is no "I must rush to get this done" feeling to anything in D3. There is no real end game past killing Inferno Diablo. Even with PvP release I don't see it being a game that needs to be played constantly. It's not like D3 PvP is going to be the next big e-sport. People who play WoW that play D3 will play D3 between their WoW raids and such. This doesn't spell the doom of D3 and it is pretty silly for anyone to think along those lines.
To me, a person who played WoW for a month, got max level, did a few raids and then quit, MoP sounds like a complete joke. How could anyone be excited about "OMG playing a panda!!". WoW always was a kid's game in my eyes...
I guess I don't need to type this because you nailed it.
I'm hoping the D3 community gets better once all the WoW players go back to WoW and stop calling for nerfs, buffs, and changes in D3.
[stupidity]Obviously Rift is better than WoW. I mean it has to be right? They have ~12% of the active subs that WoW has. Being so far behind in sub numbers can only mean that Rift is better that WoW.[/stupidity]
Subscription #'s != a better game.
WoW was built and marketed to casual players, which make up the vast majority of gamers. It also was released at a time when people were hungering for a new MMO. Blizzard's marketing department might be full of geniuses, but that doesn't mean the game is better. I could make point after point as to why EQ2 was a much better game than WoW at launch.
More people watch Judge Judy than Game of Thrones, but that doesn't mean Judge Judy is a better show.
My WoW days are over, and even though it doesn't mean much in the overall trends, a ton of people I raided with over the years are retiring before MoP comes out as well. There are plenty of things to do in RL to keep gaming casual with D3, DoTA2, LoL, GW2, etc. I'm looking forward to Heart of the Swarm with the rest of you guys, and I'm hoping that the new Blizz DoTA is awesome.
That's simply not true. If WoW only had 5000 players the majority of these forums (and other forums) would be telling Blizzard they had a horrible game because they don't have lots of players.
The fact of the matter is that subscriptions are a PART of evaluating how good a game is. If people don't think your game is good enough to play then it's hard to argue that you have a success.
The Judge Judy / Game of Thrones analogy is so flawed. First off one airs on basic cable, the other doesn't, so naturally that's going to cut into the number of people watching Game of Thrones. Secondly, they are of different genres so a Judge Judy fan may very well have no interest in Game of Thrones to begin with, and vice versa. That'd be like saying that the Final Fantasy series is better than the Halo series. They're not the same type of game so it almost doesn't matter.
The following would be much more accurate:
More people watch Judge Judy than Judge Joe Brown, therefore Judge Judy is a better show.
They are the same genre, both available on basic cable, and would largely be expected to have a very similar audience. Now, more viewership may not outright prove that Judge Judy is a better show, but it certainly is a major component of the discussion because people are voting on which they like more with their viewership.
That's simply not true. If WoW only had 5000 players the majority of these forums (and other forums) would be telling Blizzard they had a horrible game because they don't have lots of players.
The fact of the matter is that subscriptions are a PART of evaluating how good a game is. If people don't think your game is good enough to play then it's hard to argue that you have a success.
Using another analogy... independent movies and small studio movies that win major awards are considered by most to be "better" movies than so-called "summer blockbusters". Just because Transformers 3 blew away some indie flick at the box office doesn't mean it's a "better" movie. It simply appeals to a wider audience and doesn't take as much intelligence or thought to enjoy.
This, in my opinion, describes WoW perfectly. It was designed and marketed to appeal to the large casual gamer market. It's financial success is unquestionable, but that still doesn't mean that it was the best game ever released.
To take it further... D3 sold over 7 million copies and broke records at launch, but that doesn't mean it was better than many other games.
Of course, and that's why I said that subscriptions are PART of evaluating what a good game is. You can't simply ignore them and say they don't matter (because they are indicative to a cetain extent) and you can't base the entire evaluation of a game on how many people purchased it either.
It goes without saying that things like indie movie and game studios cannot afford to mass-market games and that some people simply will never know about their games and that doesn't, by default, make their games bad. But, in the same breath it's ridiculously ignorant to say that WoW maintaining 10-12 million subscriptions for the better part of almost 8 years now isn't indicative that they are producing a quality game that has large appeal.
They both matter (along with other factors too, I'm sure). I simply took issue with you saying that subscription numbers don't matter at all. If that's now how you intended that statement then I apologize for misinterpretation.
EDIT
I also take issue with the idea that somehow people who play WoW are inherently stupider than those who play an indie title, or that people who went to the movies to enjoy a simple action flick with explosions, like Transformers, are inherently less intelligent than people who went to the Cannes Film Festival and drank cappicunos on the veranda while wearing a beret.
Entertainment is entertainment and not everyone wants to come home from work and watch something that requires a lot of attention like Tree of Life. One of my favorite movies is Memento, but I'll be honest with you, I don't always feel like watching a movie like that, sometimes I just want something I can veg out to. Memento requiring more mental acuity to "get" than Transformers does not, in any way, make it a better product.
It'd also be super-nice if this discussion didn't turn into the typical "indie is better because it's indie and mainstream sucks because you're all lemmings with low IQs" snobbery.
[stupidity]Obviously Rift is better than WoW. I mean it has to be right? They have ~12% of the active subs that WoW has. Being so far behind in sub numbers can only mean that Rift is better that WoW.[/stupidity]
Subscription #'s != a better game.
WoW was built and marketed to casual players, which make up the vast majority of gamers. It also was released at a time when people were hungering for a new MMO. Blizzard's marketing department might be full of geniuses, but that doesn't mean the game is better. I could make point after point as to why EQ2 was a much better game than WoW at launch.
More people watch Judge Judy than Game of Thrones, but that doesn't mean Judge Judy is a better show.
Because heroic raid progression, high ranking arena, and high ranking RBGs are totally based on casual game play. So tired of this kind of stupidity. If you think Rift is a better game then why did it go on sale within 5 months of release for 5 dollars? Why did they start consolidating servers in their first year? Why did they send out million of emails to lost people offering them another free month after releasing new content and fixing bugs? If you are too stupid to see rift as nothing more than another WoW clone then that is your problem. Saying it is a better game is simply ludicrous. You can say you like it more than WoW and to YOU it is a better game. But do not try to speak for everyone. You try to say sub numbers don't matter? That is the measure of success and the better game is the one with more success. Pull your head out of your ass and think before you start spewing such stupidity. WoW is the more successful game, end of story.
But w/e. I guess any game that has an average of 10 million subs over a 7 tear period must be worse than Rift because Rift has to basically beg people to play its game.
People seem to forget the basic reasons why World of Warcraft is so popular. It's accessibility.
1.) Can run on machines from 2000.
2.) It's easy.
3.) By far the greatest Add on support in an MMO.
People make forum arguments all day about how good the raid content in this game or that expansion is better than that game or this expansion when it's never really mattered to begin with. The biggest mistake WoW made with Cata was taking a step backward in accessibility. They went back to the BC style of dungeons when the growing population was already comfortable with the WOTLK model. After a 600k subscription loss and the rise of League of Legends playing WoW had become taboo. There are idiots who quit because they didn't want to play a "dying" game. Then people quit cause they were going to "wait for TOR".
[stupidity]Obviously Rift is better than WoW. I mean it has to be right? They have ~12% of the active subs that WoW has. Being so far behind in sub numbers can only mean that Rift is better that WoW.[/stupidity]
Subscription #'s != a better game.
WoW was built and marketed to casual players, which make up the vast majority of gamers. It also was released at a time when people were hungering for a new MMO. Blizzard's marketing department might be full of geniuses, but that doesn't mean the game is better. I could make point after point as to why EQ2 was a much better game than WoW at launch.
More people watch Judge Judy than Game of Thrones, but that doesn't mean Judge Judy is a better show.
Because heroic raid progression, high ranking arena, and high ranking RBGs are totally based on casual game play. So tired of this kind of stupidity. If you think Rift is a better game then why did it go on sale within 5 months of release for 5 dollars? Why did they start consolidating servers in their first year? Why did they send out million of emails to lost people offering them another free month after releasing new content and fixing bugs? If you are too stupid to see rift as nothing more than another WoW clone then that is your problem. Saying it is a better game is simply ludicrous. You can say you like it more than WoW and to YOU it is a better game. But do not try to speak for everyone. You try to say sub numbers don't matter? That is the measure of success and the better game is the one with more success. Pull your head out of your ass and think before you start spewing such stupidity. WoW is the more successful game, end of story.
But w/e. I guess any game that has an average of 10 million subs over a 7 tear period must be worse than Rift because Rift has to basically beg people to play its game.
Reading comprehension is your friend.... I never said that Rift was a good name... never played it, in fact. I did say that EQ2 was a better game and I also specified that it was better AT LAUNCH. Now, pull YOUR head out of your ass before you start spouting off next time.
EDIT
I also take issue with the idea that somehow people who play WoW are inherently stupider than those who play an indie title, or that people who went to the movies to enjoy a simple action flick with explosions, like Transformers, are inherently less intelligent than people who went to the Cannes Film Festival and drank cappicunos on the veranda while wearing a beret.
Entertainment is entertainment and not everyone wants to come home from work and watch something that requires a lot of attention like Tree of Life. One of my favorite movies is Memento, but I'll be honest with you, I don't always feel like watching a movie like that, sometimes I just want something I can veg out to. Memento requiring more mental acuity to "get" than Transformers does not, in any way, make it a better product.
It'd also be super-nice if this discussion didn't turn into the typical "indie is better because it's indie and mainstream sucks because you're all lemmings with low IQs" snobbery.
Bad choice of words on my part. I'm not much of an indie fan, either. And I've never worn a beret in my life.
EDIT
I also take issue with the idea that somehow people who play WoW are inherently stupider than those who play an indie title, or that people who went to the movies to enjoy a simple action flick with explosions, like Transformers, are inherently less intelligent than people who went to the Cannes Film Festival and drank cappicunos on the veranda while wearing a beret.
Entertainment is entertainment and not everyone wants to come home from work and watch something that requires a lot of attention like Tree of Life. One of my favorite movies is Memento, but I'll be honest with you, I don't always feel like watching a movie like that, sometimes I just want something I can veg out to. Memento requiring more mental acuity to "get" than Transformers does not, in any way, make it a better product.
It'd also be super-nice if this discussion didn't turn into the typical "indie is better because it's indie and mainstream sucks because you're all lemmings with low IQs" snobbery.
Bad choice of words on my part. I'm not much of an indie fan, either. And I've never worn a beret in my life.
Understood, and appreciated. I just wanted to make sure we weren't getting into that "mainstream is horrible, you're all lemmings" discussion.
One of my favorite games ever was an overhead shooter called Raptor which probably was considered an indie release, although there were a LOT of games in the early-to-mid 90s which would have been considered "indie" I suppose. I certainly don't hate indie games. They're typically not my cup of tea, but there have been some that really make me enjoy time behind my computer/console.
MoP release= Blizzard diverting some resources here and there to help out with release. I wouldn't be surprised if these past few weeks of (mostly) silence from the blues are because they're helping out with preparations for MoP.
I kinda like how Achievement points is in MOP and i guess i will try Guild Wars 2 before I buy MOP. SInce its free 2 play...
Atm im kinda stuck in Diablo3 and just farming farming farming and waiting for the next patch with new legendary's. So the future looks nice
I find it funny that someone comes here and says that MMOs aren't about how many people are playing, but about how much fun people are having. For the record, I think RIFT is basically as good of a game as trying to dodge monkey shit at the zoo, but that's me.
And, yet, we *still* have people making the argument that WoW is dead because they lost subs, or that D3 is dead because they lost subs. I simply don't understand how when it comes to denigrating WoW, or D3, that the # of subs is either of utmost importance in determining the quality of the game, or it's thrown directly out the window as a meaningless metric - but it's never used in Blizzard's favor. That gives us a lot of insight as to the expectations that the consumers place on Blizzard, but never on the competition.
[stupidity]Obviously Rift is better than WoW. I mean it has to be right? They have ~12% of the active subs that WoW has. Being so far behind in sub numbers can only mean that Rift is better that WoW.[/stupidity]
OT: What does the MoP release spell for D3? Nothing. D3 is nothing more than a casual pick up and play for a while kind of game. There really is no "I must rush to get this done" feeling to anything in D3. There is no real end game past killing Inferno Diablo. Even with PvP release I don't see it being a game that needs to be played constantly. It's not like D3 PvP is going to be the next big e-sport. People who play WoW that play D3 will play D3 between their WoW raids and such. This doesn't spell the doom of D3 and it is pretty silly for anyone to think along those lines.
I guess I don't need to type this because you nailed it.
I'm hoping the D3 community gets better once all the WoW players go back to WoW and stop calling for nerfs, buffs, and changes in D3.
Subscription #'s != a better game.
WoW was built and marketed to casual players, which make up the vast majority of gamers. It also was released at a time when people were hungering for a new MMO. Blizzard's marketing department might be full of geniuses, but that doesn't mean the game is better. I could make point after point as to why EQ2 was a much better game than WoW at launch.
More people watch Judge Judy than Game of Thrones, but that doesn't mean Judge Judy is a better show.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
That's simply not true. If WoW only had 5000 players the majority of these forums (and other forums) would be telling Blizzard they had a horrible game because they don't have lots of players.
The fact of the matter is that subscriptions are a PART of evaluating how good a game is. If people don't think your game is good enough to play then it's hard to argue that you have a success.
The Judge Judy / Game of Thrones analogy is so flawed. First off one airs on basic cable, the other doesn't, so naturally that's going to cut into the number of people watching Game of Thrones. Secondly, they are of different genres so a Judge Judy fan may very well have no interest in Game of Thrones to begin with, and vice versa. That'd be like saying that the Final Fantasy series is better than the Halo series. They're not the same type of game so it almost doesn't matter.
The following would be much more accurate:
More people watch Judge Judy than Judge Joe Brown, therefore Judge Judy is a better show.
They are the same genre, both available on basic cable, and would largely be expected to have a very similar audience. Now, more viewership may not outright prove that Judge Judy is a better show, but it certainly is a major component of the discussion because people are voting on which they like more with their viewership.
Using another analogy... independent movies and small studio movies that win major awards are considered by most to be "better" movies than so-called "summer blockbusters". Just because Transformers 3 blew away some indie flick at the box office doesn't mean it's a "better" movie. It simply appeals to a wider audience and doesn't take as much intelligence or thought to enjoy.
This, in my opinion, describes WoW perfectly. It was designed and marketed to appeal to the large casual gamer market. It's financial success is unquestionable, but that still doesn't mean that it was the best game ever released.
To take it further... D3 sold over 7 million copies and broke records at launch, but that doesn't mean it was better than many other games.
It goes without saying that things like indie movie and game studios cannot afford to mass-market games and that some people simply will never know about their games and that doesn't, by default, make their games bad. But, in the same breath it's ridiculously ignorant to say that WoW maintaining 10-12 million subscriptions for the better part of almost 8 years now isn't indicative that they are producing a quality game that has large appeal.
They both matter (along with other factors too, I'm sure). I simply took issue with you saying that subscription numbers don't matter at all. If that's now how you intended that statement then I apologize for misinterpretation.
EDIT
I also take issue with the idea that somehow people who play WoW are inherently stupider than those who play an indie title, or that people who went to the movies to enjoy a simple action flick with explosions, like Transformers, are inherently less intelligent than people who went to the Cannes Film Festival and drank cappicunos on the veranda while wearing a beret.
Entertainment is entertainment and not everyone wants to come home from work and watch something that requires a lot of attention like Tree of Life. One of my favorite movies is Memento, but I'll be honest with you, I don't always feel like watching a movie like that, sometimes I just want something I can veg out to. Memento requiring more mental acuity to "get" than Transformers does not, in any way, make it a better product.
It'd also be super-nice if this discussion didn't turn into the typical "indie is better because it's indie and mainstream sucks because you're all lemmings with low IQs" snobbery.
Because heroic raid progression, high ranking arena, and high ranking RBGs are totally based on casual game play. So tired of this kind of stupidity. If you think Rift is a better game then why did it go on sale within 5 months of release for 5 dollars? Why did they start consolidating servers in their first year? Why did they send out million of emails to lost people offering them another free month after releasing new content and fixing bugs? If you are too stupid to see rift as nothing more than another WoW clone then that is your problem. Saying it is a better game is simply ludicrous. You can say you like it more than WoW and to YOU it is a better game. But do not try to speak for everyone. You try to say sub numbers don't matter? That is the measure of success and the better game is the one with more success. Pull your head out of your ass and think before you start spewing such stupidity. WoW is the more successful game, end of story.
But w/e. I guess any game that has an average of 10 million subs over a 7 tear period must be worse than Rift because Rift has to basically beg people to play its game.
1.) Can run on machines from 2000.
2.) It's easy.
3.) By far the greatest Add on support in an MMO.
People make forum arguments all day about how good the raid content in this game or that expansion is better than that game or this expansion when it's never really mattered to begin with. The biggest mistake WoW made with Cata was taking a step backward in accessibility. They went back to the BC style of dungeons when the growing population was already comfortable with the WOTLK model. After a 600k subscription loss and the rise of League of Legends playing WoW had become taboo. There are idiots who quit because they didn't want to play a "dying" game. Then people quit cause they were going to "wait for TOR".
Reading comprehension is your friend.... I never said that Rift was a good name... never played it, in fact. I did say that EQ2 was a better game and I also specified that it was better AT LAUNCH. Now, pull YOUR head out of your ass before you start spouting off next time.
Bad choice of words on my part. I'm not much of an indie fan, either. And I've never worn a beret in my life.
Understood, and appreciated. I just wanted to make sure we weren't getting into that "mainstream is horrible, you're all lemmings" discussion.
One of my favorite games ever was an overhead shooter called Raptor which probably was considered an indie release, although there were a LOT of games in the early-to-mid 90s which would have been considered "indie" I suppose. I certainly don't hate indie games. They're typically not my cup of tea, but there have been some that really make me enjoy time behind my computer/console.
Atm im kinda stuck in Diablo3 and just farming farming farming and waiting for the next patch with new legendary's. So the future looks nice
+ Rep Me if I've helped!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128252\
YES! GO JAY GO!!!!
Except for the fact that Guild Wars 1 was pretty decent. So I doubt it will fail.