JW said that over a third of the current D3 team consists of people who worked on the previous games.
You list a wall of names no sane person would bother reviewing and wave Google in my face.
You fail.
Yup, a wall of names filled with people that anyone who followed the series would instantly recognize. Why not go for one of the ones that YOU recognize? Like one of the leads who founded the company, or guys like Boos, Huang, Glenn, Huang, who all had interviews posted, the music guy (Uelman), the lead programmer who was the namesake of Lord DeSeis (Seis), the artist who designed the original Diablo (Okamura)... Or are you not familiar with the game at all, really, and did you only discover it after playing WoW :O??
Really? All 5 guys credited with Story and Dialog - Beaver, Shenk, Householder,
Vieira, Hedlund don't exist? That's a big pretty big mistake to make in something as important as credits.
"In 1997, Blizzard Entertainment launched its second major franchise with the role-playing game Diablo. Diablo's fictional universe was created by both Metzen and fellow designer Bill Roper, and Metzen also provided voice acting for some of the game's characters."
"Returning to the Diablo series in 2000 with Diablo II, Metzen worked on the game's story, script and artwork."
So I challenged your idiotic name game and proved that you know shit. My point still remains. You wave names at my face which can not be checked or confirmed, and I offer you a video where Jay Wilson himself states the factual data.
You stated "designed all of the quest lines and dialogues in D1, D2 and the second expansion". Those credits would seem to indicate that a bunch of other people worked on it.
Yes, Metzen still works there. Nope, he never worked at Blizzard North - and that's the studio I'm talking about. Nor did Bill Roper, until after Lord of Destruction shipped. You do know that Blizzard was originally just a publisher for "Diablo" and that Condor was an independent studio in the first year of Diablo's development, right?
Nice try, but you still haven't touched a single one of those 48 names.
I don't see how it matters if the devs were, or were not in Blizzard North.
The thread is about the "original Diablo team". A fair amount of outside contractors and folks from Irvine worked on it, too, and some made great contributions. But the fact remains that Blizzard North was that team, and that those 51 names (or 19 names, if you're talking about the original title) may have had more than a little bit to do with why the game was what it was.
Nice try, but you still haven't touched a single one of those 48 names.
Oh wait, so those 48 names are based on Blizzard North people, or people who exclusively worked on D1, or people who worked on D1 and D2 but not people who worked on D2? Because you seem to only account either of those categories of developers when it seems convenient to you in order to make a point.
I don't give a shit about studio names, what is Blizzard North and what isn't, who is the true developer on the series from your deep philosophical point of view. I simply don't care.
Consider this sentence of mine:
JW said that a third of the D3 team consists of people who worked on the previous games.
It doesn't contain 'Blizzard North' in it. Whatever you say is completely irrelevant unless you are willing to claim that JW is insane or lying for some inconceivable reason. But somehow I can't understand your drive either. Almost each and every one of your posts are in relation to a discussion where you are trying to prove whether or not 'the original Diablo team', whatever that might be in your head, is partly on the Diablo 3 team now.
Go ahead and call JW a liar openly and reveal the troll inside of you so we can end this discussion.
Dime, my statement was "These are the people on the core team (full-time at the Blizzard North offices in the Bay Area as of the release in 2000) that worked on Diablo II:"
Is there something you don't get there? I know your English is quite good, but we're here to help if you have any problems.
This thread is about "the original Diablo team". Let us know if that's a tough concept for you as well.
Nowhere have I made any comment about any statement made by anyone except yourself - though your use of a gentleman as a reference for the subject who arrived at Blizzard almost ten years after "Diablo" shipped is, uh, interesting.
I'm trying to keep the tone polite and sticking to verifiable, linkable facts. Let us know if you'd like to join at any point.
By the way, I like how your qualification has gone from "more than half" to "more than a third" to, now, "a third" as the thread has progressed. You're getting warmer, I guess.
A fair amount of outside contractors and folks from Irvine worked on it, too, and some made great contributions. But the fact remains that Blizzard North was that team
Besides Blizzard North, there was also Blizzard... and, yes, those contributors do matter, if you ask me.
Quote from "Felthuzad_The_Unclean"" »
I know your English is quite good, but we're here to help if you have any problems.
Can you cut that out, please? It annoys ME, and has nothing to do with this discussion.
Let us know if that's a tough concept for you as well.
Ah. You are now either referring to yourself in plural or perhaps labouring under the illusion that anyone else present here gives a shit about studio names. Perhaps you should take another look at the thread title and learn the horrific truth that Blizzard North is not mentioned in it.
I could have said that there's sixteen times more original developers working on Diablo 3 now. That doesn't change the factual situation neither as your demagogy relating to the definition of 'original team' and 'the studio I am talking about'. The actual wording on the video is something I can't confirm at the moment but I believe it is more than a third. Compared to your claims that it is 1 or 0 'names' or something, I am still much warmer.
and, yes, those contributors do matter, if you ask me.
Yup, the QA, voice work from NPCs, and cinematics were all consistently excellent, and I'm sure the corporate side did great stuff too in terms of logistics, marketing, etc. And let's not forget all of those folks in the payroll department, the localization guys who helped eventually release the games in many, many languages and the guy who delivered the snacks and water bottles, etc. The "thank you" list and QA credits reflect this. Literally hundreds, if not thousands of peoples' work goes into a title, especially a big one like "Diablo II". But that's not what the thread is about, is it?
Yet somehow, in some weird kind of way you are still hellbent on proving your claims D3's team does in fact consist out of many Blizzard North.....
Blizzard North? No, I was never trying to prove or would I even know that information precisely. I do not care about how many Blizzard North people are working on Diablo 3. I was just trying to shed light on the subject where someone enthusiastically manipulates information in order to obscure the truth about how many of the current Diablo 3 people have worked on the previous two games. Some people take pleasure in spreading those lies, and that is when I attempt to bring about a fistful of truth and common sense.
That's great, Dime. Too bad the internet records statements like "more than half of D2 people are there to work on D3 now".
Maybe if you put a little of that effort into researching and less into attacking other posters, the results would be different.
"Some people take pleasure in spreading those lies"
I don't think you take pleasure in spreading lies - you're being a little hard on yourself. You're just a little lazy with the facts and too eager to parrot off-the-cuff statements without much research. But we expect better things from you in the future.
Yup, the QA, voice work from NPCs, and cinematics were all consistently excellent, and I'm sure the corporate side did great stuff too in terms of logistics, marketing, etc. And let's not forget all of those folks in the payroll department, the localization guys who helped eventually release the games in many, many languages and the guy who delivered the snacks and water bottles, etc. The "thank you" list and QA credits reflect this. Literally hundreds, if not thousands of peoples' work goes into a title, especially a big one like "Diablo II". But that's not what the thread is about, is it?
Yes, thousands. Quite a lot of people work on projects. And some of those people are not heard of, because they didn't make a "huge contribution". Or maybe someone just didn't want to mention them like PF didn't like mentioning Parsons. That doesn't change the fact that those people did, indeed, exist, work on the project, and may have stayed to work on Diablo III. To say that "nobody of the original devs is working on DIII" would also mean to exclude all those other people as well, something you cannot humanely do.
Behind a big company and a big list of big names there's always a larger list of small names who have actually made the game.
And if you think that little details often done by those very unheard of, unpopular people, think again. A good game differs from a masterpiece by all the little details. Someone models that gargoyle statue, after all.
A good game differs from a masterpiece by all the little details. Someone models that gargoyle statue, after all.
Couldn't agree more, and losing all of the Background and UI artists as well as layout guys from the D2 team may well be the biggest loss. Those guys did truly awesome work on what have been a really challenging engine in terms of randomness etc.
Background and UI artists are useful to a 3D game how, exactly? Well, I mean, they are helpful to do all the 2D images and stuff, but you don't need them anywhere near as much now as you did in the 2D era.
The artwork looks fine to me.
The DII randomization program sucked ass. See DII. We need something better.
The Diablo team changed, but so did Diablo, and so did the time it will be made in.
Did the CGI team leave? The DIII CGI looks fine to me.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Those are utter lies Equinox, the core of the game, what makes the game stand out or fail is entirely up to a few, maybe even a single person, no matter how big budget or whatever the product is.
I did not lie anywhere. What I posted is mostly an opinion from experience.
A programmer is more important than his manager. His manager is usually and idiot who understands nothing while the program is being written on the programmer's enthusiasm, if written at all. A good manager produces better results. Yet, a good manager is nothing without a good programmer, he is trash.
Any product depends on its engineers first and foremost. Programmers, artists. Not the manager. "One person" is a manager. He does not matter.
That's my opinion here. If managers are gone, they can be replaced by new managers...
As for whether or not D2 "sucked" in any major aspect, I'd just remind you that it is the #7 most played game by hours over 100 months after being released. I'd also remind folks that that team may have had flaws, but they released Diablo, D2, and LoD in the space of 4.5 years. It has been about twice that time since D2 was released, and...?
I'm quite speecheless... I thought these boards were civil.
Unfortunately, I've had quite a wake-up call. Towards Dimebog, this Unclean guy, and anyone else who has been posting this stupid ass "NUH-UH... WATER BOTTLE DELIVERY COUNTS..." and "1/3rd, 2/3rd's" bullshit, shut up.
I mean, honestly, I asked to know the fucking raw statistic of WHO IS LEFT FROM DIABLO 1 AND DIABLO 2 AND DIABLO 2 LOD. I don't care about percent. I don't care about fractions. I need the NUMBER of people left out of the current team.
If that number DOES NOT EXIST, simply SAY THAT. Do not go back and forth ARGUING about who is right, because, quite frankly, if the exact number existed in plain sight, it -wouldn't- be arguable. So, it's clear to me now that the number does not exist...
Since it does not exist, how about someone does some research, instead of posting long lists of names and videos that mention NOTHING about the original Diablo team in them. That G4 video was 5 minutes of stupid shit I've already heard, and as for that list of names, wow, 3 people dissapeared from one list to the other. Big whoop. This proves nothing, nor does it tell me anything of use. You may say "WELL, OBVIOUSLY, ONLY 3 PEOPLE ARE LEFT" but I'm not buying that list just because it has some Diablo 2 dev's on it, which, I am familiar with, yes.
Let's not waste time on banter folks, and, to be honest, I don't think I've seen insults towards someone being from another country this heavily from anyone other than trolls who are seeking arguments towards someone with no facts. I'm not saying anyone's done that, but, the comparative conversational level this has degraded to is not helping anyone find any real facts, all this is telling me is that no one knows, so SAY that, if no one knows, just SAYING that would be much easier than throwing around names, videos, percentages and random fractions that consistently change from each post by everyone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have then given views to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities"
I asked to know the fucking raw statistic of WHO IS LEFT FROM DIABLO 1 AND DIABLO 2 AND DIABLO 2 LOD.
If you define the team as being people full-time at Blizzard North when those games were released, the answer is 0, 3, 3. If you want a broader answer, it is obviously a little different.
The source of the confusion was an off-the-cuff remark by a interview with a guy currently on the team, and a reflex reaction from a poster or two who desperately want to believe every word for some reason. That confusion was also based on the fact that Blizzard North was closed down over four years after LOD was released - so someone could theoretically be "Blizzard North" and not have a credit on one of those titles.
Define your question in a better way and get a better answer - garbage in, garbage out.
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You list a wall of names no sane person would bother reviewing and wave Google in my face.
You fail.
Yup, a wall of names filled with people that anyone who followed the series would instantly recognize. Why not go for one of the ones that YOU recognize? Like one of the leads who founded the company, or guys like Boos, Huang, Glenn, Huang, who all had interviews posted, the music guy (Uelman), the lead programmer who was the namesake of Lord DeSeis (Seis), the artist who designed the original Diablo (Okamura)... Or are you not familiar with the game at all, really, and did you only discover it after playing WoW :O??
Your babble in response to my saying that the creator of the storyline who worked on the lore, quests and dialogue since D1 is still on the team:
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Metzen
"In 1997, Blizzard Entertainment launched its second major franchise with the role-playing game Diablo. Diablo's fictional universe was created by both Metzen and fellow designer Bill Roper, and Metzen also provided voice acting for some of the game's characters."
"Returning to the Diablo series in 2000 with Diablo II, Metzen worked on the game's story, script and artwork."
So I challenged your idiotic name game and proved that you know shit. My point still remains. You wave names at my face which can not be checked or confirmed, and I offer you a video where Jay Wilson himself states the factual data.
Bottom line: you fail.
Yes, Metzen still works there. Nope, he never worked at Blizzard North - and that's the studio I'm talking about. Nor did Bill Roper, until after Lord of Destruction shipped. You do know that Blizzard was originally just a publisher for "Diablo" and that Condor was an independent studio in the first year of Diablo's development, right?
Nice try, but you still haven't touched a single one of those 48 names.
The thread is about the "original Diablo team". A fair amount of outside contractors and folks from Irvine worked on it, too, and some made great contributions. But the fact remains that Blizzard North was that team, and that those 51 names (or 19 names, if you're talking about the original title) may have had more than a little bit to do with why the game was what it was.
I don't give a shit about studio names, what is Blizzard North and what isn't, who is the true developer on the series from your deep philosophical point of view. I simply don't care.
Consider this sentence of mine:
JW said that a third of the D3 team consists of people who worked on the previous games.
It doesn't contain 'Blizzard North' in it. Whatever you say is completely irrelevant unless you are willing to claim that JW is insane or lying for some inconceivable reason. But somehow I can't understand your drive either. Almost each and every one of your posts are in relation to a discussion where you are trying to prove whether or not 'the original Diablo team', whatever that might be in your head, is partly on the Diablo 3 team now.
Go ahead and call JW a liar openly and reveal the troll inside of you so we can end this discussion.
Is there something you don't get there? I know your English is quite good, but we're here to help if you have any problems.
This thread is about "the original Diablo team". Let us know if that's a tough concept for you as well.
Nowhere have I made any comment about any statement made by anyone except yourself - though your use of a gentleman as a reference for the subject who arrived at Blizzard almost ten years after "Diablo" shipped is, uh, interesting.
I'm trying to keep the tone polite and sticking to verifiable, linkable facts. Let us know if you'd like to join at any point.
By the way, I like how your qualification has gone from "more than half" to "more than a third" to, now, "a third" as the thread has progressed. You're getting warmer, I guess.
I could have said that there's sixteen times more original developers working on Diablo 3 now. That doesn't change the factual situation neither as your demagogy relating to the definition of 'original team' and 'the studio I am talking about'. The actual wording on the video is something I can't confirm at the moment but I believe it is more than a third. Compared to your claims that it is 1 or 0 'names' or something, I am still much warmer.
Yup, the QA, voice work from NPCs, and cinematics were all consistently excellent, and I'm sure the corporate side did great stuff too in terms of logistics, marketing, etc. And let's not forget all of those folks in the payroll department, the localization guys who helped eventually release the games in many, many languages and the guy who delivered the snacks and water bottles, etc. The "thank you" list and QA credits reflect this. Literally hundreds, if not thousands of peoples' work goes into a title, especially a big one like "Diablo II". But that's not what the thread is about, is it?
Maybe if you put a little of that effort into researching and less into attacking other posters, the results would be different.
"Some people take pleasure in spreading those lies"
I don't think you take pleasure in spreading lies - you're being a little hard on yourself. You're just a little lazy with the facts and too eager to parrot off-the-cuff statements without much research. But we expect better things from you in the future.
Behind a big company and a big list of big names there's always a larger list of small names who have actually made the game.
And if you think that little details often done by those very unheard of, unpopular people, think again. A good game differs from a masterpiece by all the little details. Someone models that gargoyle statue, after all.
Couldn't agree more, and losing all of the Background and UI artists as well as layout guys from the D2 team may well be the biggest loss. Those guys did truly awesome work on what have been a really challenging engine in terms of randomness etc.
The artwork looks fine to me.
The DII randomization program sucked ass. See DII. We need something better.
The Diablo team changed, but so did Diablo, and so did the time it will be made in.
Did the CGI team leave? The DIII CGI looks fine to me. I did not lie anywhere. What I posted is mostly an opinion from experience.
A programmer is more important than his manager. His manager is usually and idiot who understands nothing while the program is being written on the programmer's enthusiasm, if written at all. A good manager produces better results. Yet, a good manager is nothing without a good programmer, he is trash.
Any product depends on its engineers first and foremost. Programmers, artists. Not the manager. "One person" is a manager. He does not matter.
That's my opinion here. If managers are gone, they can be replaced by new managers...
As for whether or not D2 "sucked" in any major aspect, I'd just remind you that it is the #7 most played game by hours over 100 months after being released. I'd also remind folks that that team may have had flaws, but they released Diablo, D2, and LoD in the space of 4.5 years. It has been about twice that time since D2 was released, and...?
The Neilsen play hour numbers that just came out would seem to back that up!
I'm quite speecheless... I thought these boards were civil.
Unfortunately, I've had quite a wake-up call. Towards Dimebog, this Unclean guy, and anyone else who has been posting this stupid ass "NUH-UH... WATER BOTTLE DELIVERY COUNTS..." and "1/3rd, 2/3rd's" bullshit, shut up.
I mean, honestly, I asked to know the fucking raw statistic of WHO IS LEFT FROM DIABLO 1 AND DIABLO 2 AND DIABLO 2 LOD. I don't care about percent. I don't care about fractions. I need the NUMBER of people left out of the current team.
If that number DOES NOT EXIST, simply SAY THAT. Do not go back and forth ARGUING about who is right, because, quite frankly, if the exact number existed in plain sight, it -wouldn't- be arguable. So, it's clear to me now that the number does not exist...
Since it does not exist, how about someone does some research, instead of posting long lists of names and videos that mention NOTHING about the original Diablo team in them. That G4 video was 5 minutes of stupid shit I've already heard, and as for that list of names, wow, 3 people dissapeared from one list to the other. Big whoop. This proves nothing, nor does it tell me anything of use. You may say "WELL, OBVIOUSLY, ONLY 3 PEOPLE ARE LEFT" but I'm not buying that list just because it has some Diablo 2 dev's on it, which, I am familiar with, yes.
Let's not waste time on banter folks, and, to be honest, I don't think I've seen insults towards someone being from another country this heavily from anyone other than trolls who are seeking arguments towards someone with no facts. I'm not saying anyone's done that, but, the comparative conversational level this has degraded to is not helping anyone find any real facts, all this is telling me is that no one knows, so SAY that, if no one knows, just SAYING that would be much easier than throwing around names, videos, percentages and random fractions that consistently change from each post by everyone.
If you define the team as being people full-time at Blizzard North when those games were released, the answer is 0, 3, 3. If you want a broader answer, it is obviously a little different.
The source of the confusion was an off-the-cuff remark by a interview with a guy currently on the team, and a reflex reaction from a poster or two who desperately want to believe every word for some reason. That confusion was also based on the fact that Blizzard North was closed down over four years after LOD was released - so someone could theoretically be "Blizzard North" and not have a credit on one of those titles.
Define your question in a better way and get a better answer - garbage in, garbage out.