Manticore: up to 100% native crit damage, plus 200% more if you get a 2-socket. Plus 50% for Archery passive
65% on amulet
50% on gloves
35% on each ring (total 70%)
50% on Witching Hour belt
50% native.
635% bonus crit damage possible. The Manticore weapon also hits very hard even on its worst DPS rolls, but read on.
Sharpshooter passive ensures that you get crits on your first two shots
Steady Aim gives an additional 20% damage.
The next technique is the killer: Cluster Arrow (Loaded for Bear) causes 304% fire damage, plus at least one of the bomblets is very likely to hit for an additional 100%. 404%. Let us assume a mediocre 1500 Agility. Assume as well a minimum damage roll on both attacks.699 damage is minimum base plus poison.
699 x 15 x 4.04 x 7.35 x 1.2 x 2 = 747,220 damage in the initial burst, minimum. Assuming that someone serious about PvP will have a minimum of 70% reduction from Armor and Resist, this comes out to 67,250 damage. Even though this assumed perfect crit damage gear, the rest of it was very conservative. More likely, against the theoretical 70-70 player, the damage will come out over 100k (max on a perfect Manticore is 1,958,379 damage for 176,254 after 70-70 mitigation). The build is unlikely to see the light of day despite this, however, due to the possibility of the attack being Dodged and leaving you wide open. The build still warps the meta, which I will discuss below.
All of this is not meant to be gripes about 1-shotting or moaning about how OP a DH is. The intent is actually to focus on the defensive side of things. To rephrase, it's to see what means will be needed to PREVENT a 1-second kill in a dueling situation given that no modifier for damage exists in PvP beyond your own defenses. I know that there is no real basis for these assumptions, but it has to start somewhere.
Every class has some kind of defensive cooldown to use which confers either true or near-invincibility for that burst, the hard part is timing it. The other end is stacking passive defenses, such that you can survive the insane initial burst with greater than, say, 15% life remaining. This means having around 2.5 million EHP, no easy trick if you want to still be able to do damage afterward.
Ironically, the class most vulnerable to this is the DH themselves. They are the only ones not capable of stacking long-term defensive abilities in a pinch and have no native damage reduction. The main defensive Discipline spenders are going to be huge, and timing them will be everything.
Barbarians will almost certainly be forced to use Warcry and Superstition to mitigate this assault, or hit Wrath of the Berserker and pray for a Dodge. This is counting their 30% native reduction.
Witch Doctors are going to be heavily reliant on several stacked passives and skills, though there are plenty to choose from in their lists. Jungle Fortitude, Spirit Vessel, Spirit Walk, and Life Link are just a few of the examples
Wizards can use Energy Armor (Force or Prismatic), possibly also stacking on Archon depending on build to have some TRULY nasty damage reduction to cut through... for a time. They also have several good options for shorter-term defenses, but have to be wary of magnitude (Crystal Shell) or dumb luck (Mirror Image)
Monks probably have it best, due to a wide variety of short invincibility bursts (ranging from Serenity to a well-timed Seven Sided Strike) and the ability to stack passive defenses absurdly high via OWE and StI. Let's not even mention what it would look like if the third passive there was Near-Death Experience.
Though the possibility of a 2-second match exists (or just the 1-shot sacrificial king), its very presence forces players to compensate or risk instant destruction. Its own presence forces its own demise, ironically, because such a build is extremely weak if the initial burst whiffs or at least fails to deal 90% or more of the enemy's health.
EDIT: Fixed a few numbers and some of the math. Though I was a bit over on max crit, I'd forgotten to include Steady Aim, so my numbers actually went up.
That kind of glass cannon should be interesting for Team PvP, albeit limited. I imagine a Barb with Leap/Sprint and Ignore Pain or a Dashing Strike Monk on Serenity should give DHs a whole lot of trouble. CM Wiz with Teleport/Diamond Skin/Force Armor. Come to think of it, WDs with Jaunt, Spirit Vessel and some heavy hitters should also make the DH vault around like crazy.
IMO, teams will just go after glass cannons first anyway to keep damage income at the lowest possible, because insane tanks will just take a while to kill.
Manticore: up to 100% native crit damage, plus 200% more if you get a 2-socket. Plus 50% for Archery passive
100% on amulet
50% on gloves
50% on each ring (total 100%)
50% native.
650% bonus crit damage possible.
Sorry but you're wrong. Amulets cap at 65% and rings at 35%. AND you aren't even factoring in Witching Hour legendary belt that can give you another 50%.
Fixed my numbers, thanks aarondf2012. The presence of a Deathmatch style actually strengthens the build to be a much greater threat, since the idea can be to come out swinging and then just dance around distracting them until you either die or have the hatred to do it again, and you can just repeat every time you get ripped apart.
Currently, less than 100 people (sc) have 2.5mill EHP unbuffed, but it still tells a lot.
You can mainly not increase your EHP in such an insane matter that its really going to help, especially not after the nerf of defensive skills.
This is assuming things will hit at the same rate in PVP and PVE. Considering it'll be 3v3, A glass cannon may be able to take one person out, but will go down right after that. If they go DM style for fighting, having a glass cannon DH on your team will just ensure a 1:1 Kill:Death ratio for that player, and really won't help your cause out.
Are there any skills other than cluster arrow that are comparable in damage in a single hit?
Because from my understanding, cluster arrow is a bit slow so it gives players time to cast a defensive spell or dodge.
Same goes for spells like seven sided strike.
Is there any instant attack that does huge amounts of damage?
Are there any skills other than cluster arrow that are comparable in damage in a single hit?
Because from my understanding, cluster arrow is a bit slow so it gives players time to cast a defensive spell or dodge.
Same goes for spells like seven sided strike.
Is there any instant attack that does huge amounts of damage?
Cluster arrow, though not instant, is by no means slow. Comparable attacks include Impale (Grievous Wounds or Chemical Burn), Fan of Knives, and Rain of Vengeance.
Impale deals either slightly less damage at the same speed with Grievous Wounds (though much cheaper), or deals significantly more with Chemical Burn but gives a couple of seconds to use a good defense to mitigate much of it.
Fan of Knives deals less damage, shorter range, and has a cooldown... but is an AoE for much lower cost and slows.
Rain of Vengeance is the move I believe you were thinking about, as it deals incredible amounts of damage but has either poor travel times or deals damage over the course of 5-12 seconds in a given area.
Are there any skills other than cluster arrow that are comparable in damage in a single hit?
Because from my understanding, cluster arrow is a bit slow so it gives players time to cast a defensive spell or dodge.
Same goes for spells like seven sided strike.
Is there any instant attack that does huge amounts of damage?
While I don't know about demon hunters, Archon (Arcane Destruction) for wizards does 1600% weapon damage as arcane instantly to everything in a fairly wide radius.
A stacked Archon Wizard with a 1000 DPS physical damage one hander with 100% crit damage and a socket, a perfect triumvirate, perfect zuni boots, 2000 Int, can have over 50% crit and 485% crit damage and 26% increased damage from elemental, on a baseline of around 1400 average damage per hit. Add in Glass Cannon (15% damage) Force Weapon (15% damage) and Sparkflint (12% damage) and your non-crit damage is: 801,561, with critical hits weighing in at 3.89 million damage.
You only get one shot every 2 minutes before you have to resort to ONLY disintigration wave dealing an average of around 400K damage per second, and 800K crits in a radius around you from arcane blasts.
Disposable, you've just inspired me to work out the Hypercrit builds for each class. Just off the top of my head, Barbarians actually have the biggest problems here, as they are the only class that doesn't have a way to perform it at-range. I'm actually moderately sure that Monks will be in second place behind the Demon Hunter, due to Seven Sided Strike (Sudden Assault).
I put together the OP on Demon Hunters for one reason and one reason only: Sharpshooter. Demon Hunters are the only class in the game that can absolutely guarantee those initial crits. For anyone else, Hypercrit builds become a huge throw of the dice to see if that initial burst can deliver one or two. Then again, you've shown that a hyper-HIT build may be feasible as well. I'll have to look into that. My benchmark goal is to be able to dish out two million EHP of damage in the initial two seconds at least half the time. Below this benchmark, and the burst becomes survivable by enough "hard targets" that enemies often won't need to bust a cooldown to survive.
Despite what I say here, I am very sure that these all-or-nothing builds won't become dominant, simply because there are too many ways to blunt their effectiveness, and every class has access to something that will do it. Being able to wipe out five million EHP worth of targets in two seconds is not much good against a Jaunt or Serenity. Heck, I'm personally looking at the unconventionals, and will be posting another "musings" topic as soon as I can go do some math.
When i put on my tank gear on my barb i have ~3.5mil EHP at diablo-progress (thats without the 30% "melee char reduction" + warcry + superstition/armor passives) and iam still dishing out 210k+ dps with battle rage...
When i tank (with iqnore pain if needed) your first shots u better start running..
On the top of that i gonna have 2000+ hp/sec regen (inspiring presence)
While DH has the least passive defensive ability among all classes, it is also the only class that has not only 1, but 2 spammable defensive skills. Smoke screen provides 1.5 sec complete invulnerability out of every 2 seconds, Gloom gives 35% flat damage deduction and 15% life steal for 5 seconds without CD.
Decent geared DH can spam at least 7 of above skills consecutively with Preparation along (not factoring 30% reset CD and Disc regen from Nightstalker). Can anything be more annoying than facing a class that completely immune to any form of cc and damage 10 seconds straight?
Also, Frost Arrow (elemental arrow) plus Cull of The Weak is an excellent alternative to Cluster Arrow.
This is assuming things will hit at the same rate in PVP and PVE. Considering it'll be 3v3, A glass cannon may be able to take one person out, but will go down right after that. If they go DM style for fighting, having a glass cannon DH on your team will just ensure a 1:1 Kill:Death ratio for that player, and really won't help your cause out.
Not to sure why this post was ignored, this has been theorized to death, but I think its safe to ASSUME that player damage won't be 1:1. Lets say 1:10
/thread
or change the discussion of approach for each class... which is basically what is happening already.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
this has been theorized to death, but I think its safe to ASSUME that player damage won't be 1:1. Lets say 1:10
The problem with this assumption is when we consider the vast majority of builds out there. Having their damage output reduced by 90% on top of player mitigation is going to render most builds completely impotent, especially against Monks and Witch Doctors.
Does anyone wonder if crit damage will even be worth anything in PVP?
I constantly hear about DHs super high crit damage and wonder whats the point?
On average players have about 30 000- 50 0000 health. So, crit might be useless, unless you only do 5000 damage.
The DH is the only class that can guarantee a potentially-lethal amount of damage, enough to reliably force a defensive cooldown. Also remember that 30-50k health translates to 61-102k EHP when you have the "weak" 70-70 mitigation I discussed earlier. Crit chance and crit damage are likely to become important in PvP even in moderate amounts, because it makes your damage spiky and unpredictable. If an enemy can predict your damage, they can properly time their defenses. For most, however, it's just a nice perk, not something to be relied upon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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65% on amulet
50% on gloves
35% on each ring (total 70%)
50% on Witching Hour belt
50% native.
635% bonus crit damage possible. The Manticore weapon also hits very hard even on its worst DPS rolls, but read on.
Sharpshooter passive ensures that you get crits on your first two shots
Steady Aim gives an additional 20% damage.
The next technique is the killer: Cluster Arrow (Loaded for Bear) causes 304% fire damage, plus at least one of the bomblets is very likely to hit for an additional 100%. 404%. Let us assume a mediocre 1500 Agility. Assume as well a minimum damage roll on both attacks.699 damage is minimum base plus poison.
699 x 15 x 4.04 x 7.35 x 1.2 x 2 = 747,220 damage in the initial burst, minimum. Assuming that someone serious about PvP will have a minimum of 70% reduction from Armor and Resist, this comes out to 67,250 damage. Even though this assumed perfect crit damage gear, the rest of it was very conservative. More likely, against the theoretical 70-70 player, the damage will come out over 100k (max on a perfect Manticore is 1,958,379 damage for 176,254 after 70-70 mitigation). The build is unlikely to see the light of day despite this, however, due to the possibility of the attack being Dodged and leaving you wide open. The build still warps the meta, which I will discuss below.
All of this is not meant to be gripes about 1-shotting or moaning about how OP a DH is. The intent is actually to focus on the defensive side of things. To rephrase, it's to see what means will be needed to PREVENT a 1-second kill in a dueling situation given that no modifier for damage exists in PvP beyond your own defenses. I know that there is no real basis for these assumptions, but it has to start somewhere.
Every class has some kind of defensive cooldown to use which confers either true or near-invincibility for that burst, the hard part is timing it. The other end is stacking passive defenses, such that you can survive the insane initial burst with greater than, say, 15% life remaining. This means having around 2.5 million EHP, no easy trick if you want to still be able to do damage afterward.
Ironically, the class most vulnerable to this is the DH themselves. They are the only ones not capable of stacking long-term defensive abilities in a pinch and have no native damage reduction. The main defensive Discipline spenders are going to be huge, and timing them will be everything.
Barbarians will almost certainly be forced to use Warcry and Superstition to mitigate this assault, or hit Wrath of the Berserker and pray for a Dodge. This is counting their 30% native reduction.
Witch Doctors are going to be heavily reliant on several stacked passives and skills, though there are plenty to choose from in their lists. Jungle Fortitude, Spirit Vessel, Spirit Walk, and Life Link are just a few of the examples
Wizards can use Energy Armor (Force or Prismatic), possibly also stacking on Archon depending on build to have some TRULY nasty damage reduction to cut through... for a time. They also have several good options for shorter-term defenses, but have to be wary of magnitude (Crystal Shell) or dumb luck (Mirror Image)
Monks probably have it best, due to a wide variety of short invincibility bursts (ranging from Serenity to a well-timed Seven Sided Strike) and the ability to stack passive defenses absurdly high via OWE and StI. Let's not even mention what it would look like if the third passive there was Near-Death Experience.
Though the possibility of a 2-second match exists (or just the 1-shot sacrificial king), its very presence forces players to compensate or risk instant destruction. Its own presence forces its own demise, ironically, because such a build is extremely weak if the initial burst whiffs or at least fails to deal 90% or more of the enemy's health.
Thanks for sticking with me this far if you're still here, and feel free to add any thoughts to my random musings. The build I'm temporarily working from is http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPXdSV!TYe!YcZcZY
EDIT: Fixed a few numbers and some of the math. Though I was a bit over on max crit, I'd forgotten to include Steady Aim, so my numbers actually went up.
IMO, teams will just go after glass cannons first anyway to keep damage income at the lowest possible, because insane tanks will just take a while to kill.
Sorry but you're wrong. Amulets cap at 65% and rings at 35%. AND you aren't even factoring in Witching Hour legendary belt that can give you another 50%.
You can mainly not increase your EHP in such an insane matter that its really going to help, especially not after the nerf of defensive skills.
Because from my understanding, cluster arrow is a bit slow so it gives players time to cast a defensive spell or dodge.
Same goes for spells like seven sided strike.
Is there any instant attack that does huge amounts of damage?
Cluster arrow, though not instant, is by no means slow. Comparable attacks include Impale (Grievous Wounds or Chemical Burn), Fan of Knives, and Rain of Vengeance.
Impale deals either slightly less damage at the same speed with Grievous Wounds (though much cheaper), or deals significantly more with Chemical Burn but gives a couple of seconds to use a good defense to mitigate much of it.
Fan of Knives deals less damage, shorter range, and has a cooldown... but is an AoE for much lower cost and slows.
Rain of Vengeance is the move I believe you were thinking about, as it deals incredible amounts of damage but has either poor travel times or deals damage over the course of 5-12 seconds in a given area.
A stacked Archon Wizard with a 1000 DPS physical damage one hander with 100% crit damage and a socket, a perfect triumvirate, perfect zuni boots, 2000 Int, can have over 50% crit and 485% crit damage and 26% increased damage from elemental, on a baseline of around 1400 average damage per hit. Add in Glass Cannon (15% damage) Force Weapon (15% damage) and Sparkflint (12% damage) and your non-crit damage is: 801,561, with critical hits weighing in at 3.89 million damage.
You only get one shot every 2 minutes before you have to resort to ONLY disintigration wave dealing an average of around 400K damage per second, and 800K crits in a radius around you from arcane blasts.
I put together the OP on Demon Hunters for one reason and one reason only: Sharpshooter. Demon Hunters are the only class in the game that can absolutely guarantee those initial crits. For anyone else, Hypercrit builds become a huge throw of the dice to see if that initial burst can deliver one or two. Then again, you've shown that a hyper-HIT build may be feasible as well. I'll have to look into that. My benchmark goal is to be able to dish out two million EHP of damage in the initial two seconds at least half the time. Below this benchmark, and the burst becomes survivable by enough "hard targets" that enemies often won't need to bust a cooldown to survive.
Despite what I say here, I am very sure that these all-or-nothing builds won't become dominant, simply because there are too many ways to blunt their effectiveness, and every class has access to something that will do it. Being able to wipe out five million EHP worth of targets in two seconds is not much good against a Jaunt or Serenity. Heck, I'm personally looking at the unconventionals, and will be posting another "musings" topic as soon as I can go do some math.
When i put on my tank gear on my barb i have ~3.5mil EHP at diablo-progress (thats without the 30% "melee char reduction" + warcry + superstition/armor passives) and iam still dishing out 210k+ dps with battle rage...
When i tank (with iqnore pain if needed) your first shots u better start running..
On the top of that i gonna have 2000+ hp/sec regen (inspiring presence)
My profile = http://www.diablopro...ayer/det0x-2856
Ingame stats = http://i.imgur.com/UN0Pt.jpg (battle rage + warcry)
*edit*
Normally i play a ranged barb, thats why i have those skills.
Decent geared DH can spam at least 7 of above skills consecutively with Preparation along (not factoring 30% reset CD and Disc regen from Nightstalker). Can anything be more annoying than facing a class that completely immune to any form of cc and damage 10 seconds straight?
Also, Frost Arrow (elemental arrow) plus Cull of The Weak is an excellent alternative to Cluster Arrow.
Not to sure why this post was ignored, this has been theorized to death, but I think its safe to ASSUME that player damage won't be 1:1. Lets say 1:10
/thread
or change the discussion of approach for each class... which is basically what is happening already.
I constantly hear about DHs super high crit damage and wonder whats the point?
On average players have about 30 000- 50 0000 health. So, crit might be useless, unless you only do 5000 damage.
The problem with this assumption is when we consider the vast majority of builds out there. Having their damage output reduced by 90% on top of player mitigation is going to render most builds completely impotent, especially against Monks and Witch Doctors.
The DH is the only class that can guarantee a potentially-lethal amount of damage, enough to reliably force a defensive cooldown. Also remember that 30-50k health translates to 61-102k EHP when you have the "weak" 70-70 mitigation I discussed earlier. Crit chance and crit damage are likely to become important in PvP even in moderate amounts, because it makes your damage spiky and unpredictable. If an enemy can predict your damage, they can properly time their defenses. For most, however, it's just a nice perk, not something to be relied upon.