There are older gods then the greek gods. Religion was created to control the population and it allowed the first rulers claim either the gods told him to that or that he is the god on earth until he needs to go and be replaced by the next one in line.
Please don't be so quick to blurt out generic, psychological based statements like this unless you have a strong basis for it. And certainly don't present it as fact because the people who said this in the first place did not present it as fact. There are MANY logical theories on why and how religion was created. This one however, seems to be the easiest for people to blurt out. Avoid sharing just one view.
Turmobil, be very weary of what you say about the cannon and the creation of the bible. There may be people here who actually know a thing or two about it. If your going to say something like that, you better start showing some evidence.
Can we at least try to keep this discussion academic?
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Well the Bible is all these separate books all bunched together.
And the Roman bloke removed a whole bunch of chapters because well, he didn't like them.
I do not wish to read it.
Sounds scary.
Oh, and I think that sexual chapter was called "Garden of Eve".
Actually, the Bible was comprised over thousands of years from all types of people from scholars, shephards, Kings, tax collectors. To have so many types of people from such a huge spand of time to all fit together the way it is supposed to, which the central theme is Jesus, boggles the mind. And the "sex" book is called Song of Songs, or Song of Solomon.
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Did anyone see Dawkins get pwned by Ben Stein in his recent "documentary"?
Dawkins made himself look like a moron.
Thats why nobody should ever formulate an opinion based off of one book. We all need to have a well rounded opinion influenced by others but not solely reflective of one view.
Nektu is that on youtube?
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The first link is as much a conspiracy theory as I've ever heard. Dawkins says: We could have been created by aliens. The aliens would have been created through evolution. If that were the case, we would be made by a designer. But unless Stein accepts aliens, birthed from an evolutionary process themselves, as a God and designer, then he's completely twisting the meaning of Dawkins words.
As for the second clip, I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Increase the information in a genome? Like make it bigger?
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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Don, the problem I have with argument is 1 you chose not to name any counter arguments and 2 you clearly don't have an extensive enough knowledge of the bible and the various interpretations to make a claim like that. I just can't take your opinion seriously because you are clearly forming an opinion on it without having nearly enough information on the topic which in My opinion is a mistake.
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I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. I'm saying your choice to form that opinion is wrong. You approach the argument from a view point that is looking for inaccuracies from the start. As you stated, you only posted that from an argumentative standpoint but you also said that you wanted to learn the views of others. I just can't believe that because posting the way you did makes it sound not as if you want to learn the views of others but rather, you sound as if you simply want to be right.
On the topic of the bible as a piece of history what about King Nebuchadnezzar? For years, those same scholars that you seem to put such faith in believed that he never even existed until one day archeologists proved that he did in fact exist. Scholars chose to view the king as fictional and chose to assess the bible as historically inaccurate and ended up wrong. That's one. Would you like to do another? However remember, I did not say your opinion was wrong, but your approach to it was.
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Ya the hanging gardens is still up in the air. you may not be accessing that the entire bible is of no historical significance but you made it seem that because there was one inconsistency then you should throw out the idea entirely that the bible could be used for history because there would be no way to know whats accurate and what isn't.
At least this is what I inferred, maybe I was wrong but it felt like it. Considering how old the dead sea scrolls are I think we are compelled to look a the texts in terms of historical evidence.
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The metaphors thing bothers me that you present it as fact and are seeming to present things such as the events that are depicted as fact as metaphorical rather than mentioning things like prophecies and visions. You can't state that it's a fact that those events are metaphorical.
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The problem with the Bible is that it is self-contradicting, which rules out literal interpretation. Ranging from contradictions such as the two clashing creation stories to smaller details such as for example the fact that the Bible tells us Hell is actually cooler than Heaven by around a hundred degrees Celsius.
The "two" creation accounts are one. They compliment one another, if you read it carefully. One tells about everything that was created focusing on everything except humanity. The other focuses on humanity. There is no contradiction there.
Hell is actually eternal separation from God. The Jews called this place Sheol. It had two distinct aspects to it. You had Paradise on one side, Torment on the other with a great chasm that separated the two that no one could cross. But the book of Revelation does talk about the Hell of fire and brimstone, which means that this place of Sheol is no longer there or in need. Where there will be gnashing of teeth.
Such contradictions in the small facts can be attributed to knowledge humanity did not possess at the time of writing. However, is the contradiction due to human error in copying the Bible countless times? Did the writer just make it up? Or did he exaggerate?
The historical value of the Bible is also something very flimsy. Maybe the biggest example is the supposed "Roman census" that apparently took place at the time of Jesus' birth. A census the scale of the entire Roman empire would have had a lot of other sources citing it, however no evidence suggests that such a census ever took place, even less at the time of Jesus' birth.
In fact quite the contrary, strong evidence is against such a census. The Roman practice was to collect taxes per province, not empire-wide. This is a fact that is cited in numerous sources. In fact collecting the taxes was often outsourced to "Publicans", a fact that is actually stated both in the Bible itself along several other historical sources.
For another example everyone familiar with Christianity knows the story of Herod slaughtering all the innocent babies because the prophecies of a newborn Jewish king questioned his authority. A massacre of the scale that it is depicted in the Bible would've been quite a happening and the wailing stories would've been written down countless times were it to happen.
However, no other historical source outside of the Bible cites this happening, which has led to a number of educated scholars come to an agreement that it is a metaphor, not a historical fact.
Beyond that, the Herod slaughtering the innocents is originally a pagan myth, a quote below:
I could go on and list a large number of similar inaccuracies, but I think I delivered my point. The Bible is largely metaphorical, not a historical source. In fact a lot of themes and events the Bible names predate Jesus as stories. After all, the New Testament was written around a hundred years after Jesus' death, so this could be accounted to that. However, it's some grave food for thought for a thinking individual.
And here is where your argument falls, with me at least. The Gospels have been dated to around 65 AD. Only 30 years after the death of Jesus. And even then there were enough eye witnesses to deny the writings, but they didn't because we have no records of them doing so.
So the Bible is self-contradicting and inaccurate when it comes to history, this rules out the literal interpretation, and leaves only taking it as a metaphor. But then, whose interpretation is correct? Which of the contradicting views is the right one?
So, in that case, since the Koran, which shares a lot of the same Old Testament "stories" such as creation and the such should also be taken as metaphorically? Yet so many Muslims take it just as literal as Christians do with the Bible.
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There is some contradiction in them, too. I do know that they are complementing one another, but there's also some inconsistencies.
Such as in Genesis 1:24-27 it is clearly said that God first made the animals, then man and woman. The second chapter of Genesis contradicts this by saying that man was made before nature. Thus my ice cream and pizza eating order reference.
If you look at Genesis 2:8 it talks about the Garden of Eden God made and that was where man was placed after he was made. Then in 2:9 it goes back before man was made and talks about what was in the garden when it was made. Then in 2:15 it goes forward again after man was placed in the garden for man to work it and eat from the trees. There still doesn't seem to be a contradiction there with me.
I do admit I was a bit ambiguous.
No worries.
Jesus' birth was probably not around year 1, but either a few years back or forwards. First gospel is nigh proven to be Mark, dated around 65-70 CE, John can be debated but it can't be credibly dated later than 125 CE.
I believe that after Jesus' birth the years were counted forward instead of backward. So why were the years counted backward before then?
If John had written his Gospel in 125 AD, he would have been almost 200 years old on the Island of Patmos. I doubt that.
I live in a Christian country, thus my knowledge of the Bible greatly surpasses my knowledge of the Qur'an. Thus I can't credibly argue about it, but I'd say it has a lot of metaphors and historical evidence besides that as well.
Be careful, Muslims love to discuss religion passionately.
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If you look at Genesis 2:8 it talks about the Garden of Eden God made and that was where man was placed after he was made. Then in 2:9 it goes back before man was made and talks about what was in the garden when it was made. Then in 2:15 it goes forward again after man was placed in the garden for man to work it and eat from the trees. There still doesn't seem to be a contradiction there with me.
Note to everyone, Nektu knows wtf he is talking about.
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Note to everyone, Nektu knows wtf he is talking about.
I'm not an all knowing person on the subject. And I'll be the first to let you know I might not have the answer. But, it doesn't mean I won't search for it.
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However, in Genesis 2:4-6 it is said that no plant had yet sprung up, when God created man from dust. It is true that in Genesis 2:8 it is said that Eden was already made.
However it is only in Genesis 2:9 when God makes trees grow in it, after man was placed in there.
This is sometimes called the "second creation story". It starts with a reference to the desolate condition of the Earth (2:4-6), which corresponds to the early part of the third day in the first account (1:9-10), and then gives some details omitted from the first account. From there it proceeds with the story of the Fall of man. It is supplemental to, not in contradiction with, the first account.
A number of modern scholars do not agree that John the Apostle, John the author of the fourth Gospel and John of Patmos were the same person. This is an interpretation I myself find the most plausible. It can be argued about, I agree, but if they were separate people, then the fourth Gospel could indeed have been written in 125 CE.
John had been banished to the Island of Patmos(Rev1:9). This happened, according to apostolic tradition, during the persecution of Christians under Emperor Domitian, around 95 AD. The next year John was released and permitted to return to Ephesus. The use of the past tense "I was on the island of Patmos" may indicate that he saw the visions on Patmos but wrote the book of Revelation after his release and return to Ephesus, around 96 AD. Others believe that John transcribed the visions immediately while on Patmos, in response to Jesus' command to "write" (9:11, 19).
By this time the Church was only 66 years old. The first imperial persecution of Christians, 30 years before the book of Revelation was written, was instigated by Emperor Nero in 64-67 AD. During the time of Emperor Domitian more than 40,000 Christians were tortured and killed. It was during this time of persecution that the apostle John was banished to the island of Patmos.
In fact when I spoke of metaphors I was referring to the fact that the Qur'an has a number of metaphorical words of wisdom. I've read it only once, so I'm not a credible person to argue about it.
Fair enough.
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True, I think we have to agree it all falls down to interpretation. The contradiction is in small details.
Agreed.
However, nowhere within the Bible itself it is explicitly said that the three Johns were the same person. In fact, in the book of revelation the writer identifies himself as John a number of times, but in the Gospel the writer does not identify himself in such a way. John was a very common name among the early Christians, due to John the Apostle and John the Baptist.
It is a very traditional way, especially Catholic, to interpret the three Johns as one.
However, the gospel of John shows some very advanced theological development when compared to the synoptic Gospels. Could that have happened in 30-some years?
Some modern (especially protestant) scholars argue that the Apostle John couldn't have lived until 96 CE, when all the other Apostles died so much earlier.
The author of the Gospel of John does not identify himself until the end of the book(John 21:20, 24), where he states that he is the "disciple whom Jesus loved" (13:23; 20:2), that is, John the Apostle, the most intimate earthly friend of Jesus. Not in a gay way. Ancient tradition and unbroken subsequent opinion have recognized his authorship, until the rise of modern criticism. The same class of critics who deny the Virgin birth of Jesus, His deity, and His bodily resurrection have concluded that the author was not John the Apostle but another John of Ephesus. They base their hypothesis on an ancient, vague mention of a certain John the presbyter(elder) of Ephesus. this theory, which would undermine the value of the book of John (and the letters and Revelation), as a testimony to the deity of Jesus, is based on such flimsy evidence that it does not deserve serious consideration by Christian believers.
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However, the John 21:24 can be interpreted in such a way, that John did not write the actual Gospel, just some other text the actual Gospel is based on. That passage speaks in third person, after all.
The whole point of the book of John was to put all focus on the main subject, Jesus, not the author, so it was written in such a way. The Gospels are in fact, supposed to be about Jesus, not the ones who wrote them.
The notion of the Johns being the same is based upon the writings of Justin Martyr, which were written some decades after the Gospels. It is debatable whether someone who had never met John had the idea right.
Well, he was a philosopher and early Christian apologist. So, spending his time studying Christianity and then wanting to devote his life to teaching what he felt as true philosophy, even the writings of John. John had a few pupils such as Polycarp, Papias, and Ignatius, who became Bishops of Smyrna, Heirapolis, and Antioch, respectively. We still have writings from all three; and they are the earliest of the so called Church Fathers. I'm pretty sure the teaching didn't stop there and was, and has, been passed ever since then.
I wouldn't put the people debating about the different Johns under the same class of critics that deny the virgin birth of Jesus. After all, the different Johns hypothesis is supported by a number of Christian scholars as well.
By whom?
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Please don't be so quick to blurt out generic, psychological based statements like this unless you have a strong basis for it. And certainly don't present it as fact because the people who said this in the first place did not present it as fact. There are MANY logical theories on why and how religion was created. This one however, seems to be the easiest for people to blurt out. Avoid sharing just one view.
Turmobil, be very weary of what you say about the cannon and the creation of the bible. There may be people here who actually know a thing or two about it. If your going to say something like that, you better start showing some evidence.
Can we at least try to keep this discussion academic?
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-Winged
Actually, the Bible was comprised over thousands of years from all types of people from scholars, shephards, Kings, tax collectors. To have so many types of people from such a huge spand of time to all fit together the way it is supposed to, which the central theme is Jesus, boggles the mind. And the "sex" book is called Song of Songs, or Song of Solomon.
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I could start discussing something here... but pretty much everything I say would just be a reiteration of Dawkins, so why not cut out the middle man?
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Did anyone see Dawkins get pwned by Ben Stein in his recent "documentary"?
Dawkins made himself look like a moron.
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Thats why nobody should ever formulate an opinion based off of one book. We all need to have a well rounded opinion influenced by others but not solely reflective of one view.
Nektu is that on youtube?
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Edit:found it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g
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The first link is as much a conspiracy theory as I've ever heard. Dawkins says: We could have been created by aliens. The aliens would have been created through evolution. If that were the case, we would be made by a designer. But unless Stein accepts aliens, birthed from an evolutionary process themselves, as a God and designer, then he's completely twisting the meaning of Dawkins words.
As for the second clip, I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Increase the information in a genome? Like make it bigger?
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On the topic of the bible as a piece of history what about King Nebuchadnezzar? For years, those same scholars that you seem to put such faith in believed that he never even existed until one day archeologists proved that he did in fact exist. Scholars chose to view the king as fictional and chose to assess the bible as historically inaccurate and ended up wrong. That's one. Would you like to do another? However remember, I did not say your opinion was wrong, but your approach to it was.
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At least this is what I inferred, maybe I was wrong but it felt like it. Considering how old the dead sea scrolls are I think we are compelled to look a the texts in terms of historical evidence.
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The "two" creation accounts are one. They compliment one another, if you read it carefully. One tells about everything that was created focusing on everything except humanity. The other focuses on humanity. There is no contradiction there.
Hell is actually eternal separation from God. The Jews called this place Sheol. It had two distinct aspects to it. You had Paradise on one side, Torment on the other with a great chasm that separated the two that no one could cross. But the book of Revelation does talk about the Hell of fire and brimstone, which means that this place of Sheol is no longer there or in need. Where there will be gnashing of teeth.
And here is where your argument falls, with me at least. The Gospels have been dated to around 65 AD. Only 30 years after the death of Jesus. And even then there were enough eye witnesses to deny the writings, but they didn't because we have no records of them doing so.
So, in that case, since the Koran, which shares a lot of the same Old Testament "stories" such as creation and the such should also be taken as metaphorically? Yet so many Muslims take it just as literal as Christians do with the Bible.
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If you look at Genesis 2:8 it talks about the Garden of Eden God made and that was where man was placed after he was made. Then in 2:9 it goes back before man was made and talks about what was in the garden when it was made. Then in 2:15 it goes forward again after man was placed in the garden for man to work it and eat from the trees. There still doesn't seem to be a contradiction there with me.
No worries.
I believe that after Jesus' birth the years were counted forward instead of backward. So why were the years counted backward before then?
If John had written his Gospel in 125 AD, he would have been almost 200 years old on the Island of Patmos. I doubt that.
Be careful, Muslims love to discuss religion passionately.
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Note to everyone, Nektu knows wtf he is talking about.
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I'm not an all knowing person on the subject. And I'll be the first to let you know I might not have the answer. But, it doesn't mean I won't search for it.
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This is sometimes called the "second creation story". It starts with a reference to the desolate condition of the Earth (2:4-6), which corresponds to the early part of the third day in the first account (1:9-10), and then gives some details omitted from the first account. From there it proceeds with the story of the Fall of man. It is supplemental to, not in contradiction with, the first account.
John had been banished to the Island of Patmos(Rev1:9). This happened, according to apostolic tradition, during the persecution of Christians under Emperor Domitian, around 95 AD. The next year John was released and permitted to return to Ephesus. The use of the past tense "I was on the island of Patmos" may indicate that he saw the visions on Patmos but wrote the book of Revelation after his release and return to Ephesus, around 96 AD. Others believe that John transcribed the visions immediately while on Patmos, in response to Jesus' command to "write" (9:11, 19).
By this time the Church was only 66 years old. The first imperial persecution of Christians, 30 years before the book of Revelation was written, was instigated by Emperor Nero in 64-67 AD. During the time of Emperor Domitian more than 40,000 Christians were tortured and killed. It was during this time of persecution that the apostle John was banished to the island of Patmos.
Fair enough.
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Uh, Judaism?
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Agreed.
The author of the Gospel of John does not identify himself until the end of the book(John 21:20, 24), where he states that he is the "disciple whom Jesus loved" (13:23; 20:2), that is, John the Apostle, the most intimate earthly friend of Jesus. Not in a gay way. Ancient tradition and unbroken subsequent opinion have recognized his authorship, until the rise of modern criticism. The same class of critics who deny the Virgin birth of Jesus, His deity, and His bodily resurrection have concluded that the author was not John the Apostle but another John of Ephesus. They base their hypothesis on an ancient, vague mention of a certain John the presbyter(elder) of Ephesus. this theory, which would undermine the value of the book of John (and the letters and Revelation), as a testimony to the deity of Jesus, is based on such flimsy evidence that it does not deserve serious consideration by Christian believers.
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The whole point of the book of John was to put all focus on the main subject, Jesus, not the author, so it was written in such a way. The Gospels are in fact, supposed to be about Jesus, not the ones who wrote them.
Well, he was a philosopher and early Christian apologist. So, spending his time studying Christianity and then wanting to devote his life to teaching what he felt as true philosophy, even the writings of John. John had a few pupils such as Polycarp, Papias, and Ignatius, who became Bishops of Smyrna, Heirapolis, and Antioch, respectively. We still have writings from all three; and they are the earliest of the so called Church Fathers. I'm pretty sure the teaching didn't stop there and was, and has, been passed ever since then.
By whom?
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