D3's reward system is the loot. The more ways you have to short-circuit that by getting the rewards without playing the game, the less invested in the game the player is. The less invested the player is, the lower the quality the player perceives the game as having.
But that begs the question as to how people could be "invested" in PoE (or D2, or D1, or TL 2, or TL 1, or Darkstone) and feel that it's a good game.... despite being able to "get the rewards without playing the game." How is it possible in EVERY OTHER ARPG OF CONSEQUENCE, yet remains impossible in D3?
<snip>
I don't understand the argument against trading. All you talk about is bot bot bot. So what if there are bot making money. It does not affect you when you don't trade. So why limit the way how people want to play the game. Not everyone can spend hundred and thousand of hours playing a game. Using D2 for example, I have spent thousand of hours on it and yet still unable to collect all the items they have in game. In D3, the items are much more than D2 so do you expect others spend thousand of hours hunt for that 1 item?
I don't understand the argument against trading. All you talk about is bot bot bot. So what if there are bot making money. It does not affect you when you don't trade. So why limit the way how people want to play the game. Not everyone can spend hundred and thousand of hours playing a game. Using D2 for example, I have spent thousand of hours on it and yet still unable to collect all the items they have in game. In D3, the items are much more than D2 so do you expect others spend thousand of hours hunt for that 1 item?
But that begs the question as to how people could be "invested" in PoE (or D2, or D1, or TL 2, or TL 1, or Darkstone) and feel that it's a good game.... despite being able to "get the rewards without playing the game." How is it possible in EVERY OTHER ARPG OF CONSEQUENCE, yet remains impossible in D3?
Why is D3, literally, the only ARPG of note where some people believe that trading ruins the game? How is D3 so different from every other ARPG that trading is taboo? What about D3 necessitates that trading be eradicated otherwise people can't have fun and why is this not the case in any other ARPG?
I simply don't buy that TRADING is the problem because it's not a problem in other ARPGs (PoE, in fact, is exploring ways to facilitate trading beyond chat/forum spam). PoE also has botters and 3rd party sites, so I don't buy that being a problem either because PoE certainly isn't collapsing inwards despite a F2P system that does, in fact, rely on whales, but that's neither here nor there.
Listen, having read your posts elsewhere I understand that you have an axe to grind when it comes to the trade debate, and that's fine, but you're arguing against a point I'm not making.I never said players can't get invested in a game that has trading. I said that the less a player has to engage with the game to earn progress, the less invested he'll be in the game. That's the maxim. The second paragraph I wrote, which you chose not to quote, actually supports the case that I understand you to be making, that trading on some scales isn't a problem. And for the record, I also think BoA is overkill, I just don't think it'll ruin the game.
The point is that D2 somehow built a game where trading was allowed, but the average player never felt the need to trade. That's EXACTLY what every game should strive for. BoA is just copping to the fact that the developers can't deliver on that... which is disappointing.
Like I said in another thread, when you get a melanoma on your left hand and you go to the doctor you expect him to treat the melanoma, not amputate your arm.
You have to accept that this is your opinion, and while you're entitled to it, you have to accept that not everyone is going to share it and that doesn't make them wrong. Personally, I think the whole trade debate is a waste of time because I have played games with trading and they were good, and I have played games without trading and they were good also. So, just because D3 could be a good game that has trading, doesn't mean it can't be a good game without trading.
Your ability to answer those questions with one, singular, word is really what infuriates me about the "BoA solution." Instead of giving us the real solution that would appeal to many more people (provided they didn't go the Enigma-BiS way with ladder rewards), they give us this terrible band-aid solution that pisses off just as many people as it pleases.
Now, I am not saying this to belittle you in any means, but if you can come to that conclusion... why can't Blizzard? Why can't they give us the proper solution as opposed to the controversial solution? What is to gain from purposely pissing people off and from telling their fans "this is the right way to play the game?"
Free Trade will lead right back to where we are right now. Drops limited because trading makes it too easy to fill every slot with BiS gear. I don't want that at all. Besides, it seems a bit disengenous for someone to on one hand complain about wanting free trade to get better leggies, and then claim to be running a self-found character and finding it lacking in loot 2.0 vs the current situation.
Seems a bit of a situational argument to me, but, w/e floats your boat. Doesn't help the credibility, imo.
*claps*
Your ability to answer those questions with one, singular, word is really what infuriates me about the "BoA solution." Instead of giving us the real solution that would appeal to many more people (provided they didn't go the Enigma-BiS way with ladder rewards), they give us this terrible band-aid solution that pisses off just as many people as it pleases.
Now, I am not saying this to belittle you in any means, but if you can come to that conclusion... why can't Blizzard? Why can't they give us the proper solution as opposed to the controversial solution? What is to gain from purposely pissing people off and from telling their fans "this is the right way to play the game?"
Well I thought about your question of how was D2 (among other games) intriguing even though RMT and botting was rampant, and ladder is what I came up with. Because without being forced to start new every great while, I wouldn't have played the game very much at all. The best items were easily bought and so were high level characters, so ladder was literally the only reason I played, and my absolute favorite time of my entire D2 career was those first few weeks into a fresh ladder, where even when I wanted to I couldn't just drop $10 and be moderately decked out. It was where when I got a drop it mattered, and I got excited.
WHICH, is why in the argument I side with Boa, with the asterisk of *a ladder needs to be included*. I personally, and please understand I'm not forcing my opinion on others, LOVE the BoA. But I think we can all agree we need some sort of competitiveness in the game besides just gear. A new-age ladder could be just what we need; Timed dungeons, endless hordes, paragon leveling can all be apart of it, with leaderboards that reset once every say 3 months. I'd also personally like a classic ladder as well; brand new characters each time, with a CL (classic ladder) account paragon level reset.
Wouldn't it be cool if softcore (HC too, but It'l just be a mirror of this) was split into two for "ladder": Every 3 months the ladders would reset. On regular softcore, you'd keep your characters, your Plvl and your items, and only the leaderboards for all the previously mentioned challenges would be wiped, as well as (hopfully) different dungeons / layouts would be implemented for the next season.
But on 'classic' softcore (just a working name) you'd get the regular softcore wipe PLUS the character / plvl / items wipe. To participate you'd simply make a character and check the ladder box just like before, but this 'split' *should* please both sides; Those that don't want to lose all their hard earned gear and levels but still want to participate, and those who want a full wipe.
But anyway (damn it shaggy) sorry for the long post. What I'm trying to say is I really think even with BoA this game still has the potential to please almost everyone, but a ladder / leaderboard needs to be implemented along with specific challenges for those leaderboards. That way while you're farming for your BoA items, a 'reason' to farm is to gear up and try your skill at challenges, ect.
Edit; Completely forgot to add; I think the whole BoA movement by Blizzard is just half of their solution, with what I described above as the other half, and they simply just haven't had the time to finish and polish ladders / challenges yet.
I can hope damn it.
Free trade without a an AH with underpriced gear shoved on your face won't make easy to get bis gear at all.
If drop rates are decent enough to have good drops once in a while, because we don't have a shop where we can insta buy everything we need, trading will be an option for those that really wants to barter. If they get the best gear in no time, that's their problem. The problem is in D3V where we have terrible loot, terrible drop rates and a terrible difficulty curve, all developed with the AH in mind.
Free trade without a an AH with underpriced gear shoved on your face won't make easy to get bis gear at all.
If drop rates are decent enough to have good drops once in a while, because we don't have a shop where we can insta buy everything we need, trading will be an option for those that really wants to barter. If they get the best gear in no time, that's their problem. The problem is in D3V where we have terrible loot, terrible drop rates and a terrible difficulty curve, all developed with the AH in mind.
Very true that D3V had just horrible itemization and drops.
But, I do take issue with your first statement; with free trade, RMT + bot sites will become commonplace, and once again near - BiS items will sell for cheap, and high end items for even cheaper.
Very true that D3V had just horrible itemization and drops.
But, I do take issue with your first statement; with free trade, RMT + bot sites will become commonplace, and once again near - BiS items will sell for cheap, and high end items for even cheaper.
And as Shaggy said earlier, to fight third parties and RMT they are gutting the whole trading. If Blizzard was a doctor, i wouldn't go there if i had a cold.
Trading is a hassle, be it via chat, forum or third party sites and i'm sure a lot less people would go for trading when they can just play a good game with good rewards like.... D2?. The outcry we had during D3V was because we were forced to farm gold to gain gear then it escalated in some sort of "Trading is bad! Remove trading!" because a vocal minority doesn't want to see other players getting gear faster than them.
The AH is too convenient because you have all the gear, even if not perfect, on sale. Diablofans' homepage was full of "Budget <insert class here> guide" because no one wanted to deal with the gamebreaking experience that's D3V's loot. The problem became even bigger when they added Paragon and MPs. At that point if you wanted more chances to have a good loot, you had to level up as fast as possible at the highest difficulty as possible. Yeah, good luck without using the AH. I consider Paragon and MP a band aid fix for those that flipped the crap out of the AH to give them something to do while sitting on their super equipped characters. At that point everyone that was fed up with the horrible experience of farming jumped on the "Super Fast Paragon Level" train to see finally those orange items dropping on the floor. (i'm guilty of this).
All this rant to just say that if you remove the convenience of easy trading and make the item hunt fun, we will see a lot less players buying their gear instead of playing the game. I played D2 on Bnet without trading, and i could farm Baal, Mephisto and Pindleskin without problems. I played PoE without trading and reached level 70 (then died by desync.... ffs) and i never traded and i could play in Merciless with the gear i found and crafted. Those games are working because the loot you get can carry you and if you are in trouble, you can just dedicate a bit of your time to farm and get decent items that can help you.
With a good system, trading will be an option for those that are willing to put the effort into it but not mandatory for everyone.
I can agree with your opinion on Ladder, and i think it's needed for RoS sooner or later, because a reset once in a while will be refreshing and a new economy will fix inflation.
srry about the title, and thanks for not deleting the good discussion we got going here.
@rest
I think everyone makes a lot of good points both for PRO and CON.
I would literate everything I talked about while on stream today in regards to the case for PRO BOA and PRO FREE TRADE, but trying to fix my site up proper.
Here is a petition and voting I started on my site (got banned from bnet so made my own site lol)
vote has been getting attacked by some PRO BOA supporters early on because the %s were heavily skewed for free trade, but overall it shows a distinct difference in opinion in the community at an almost even level.
similar poll have been floating around with similar results.
Still early to really say that the community favors one or the other, but I think it's safe to say that the community is divided on the subject and that a solution that caters to both groups of players must be integrated into ROS to truly keep everyone happy.
You have to accept that this is your opinion, and while you're entitled to it, you have to accept that not everyone is going to share it and that doesn't make them wrong. Personally, I think the whole trade debate is a waste of time because I have played games with trading and they were good, and I have played games without trading and they were good also. So, just because D3 could be a good game that has trading, doesn't mean it can't be a good game without trading.
*claps*
Your ability to answer those questions with one, singular, word is really what infuriates me about the "BoA solution." Instead of giving us the real solution that would appeal to many more people (provided they didn't go the Enigma-BiS way with ladder rewards), they give us this terrible band-aid solution that pisses off just as many people as it pleases.
Now, I am not saying this to belittle you in any means, but if you can come to that conclusion... why can't Blizzard? Why can't they give us the proper solution as opposed to the controversial solution? What is to gain from purposely pissing people off and from telling their fans "this is the right way to play the game?"
Free trade without a an AH with underpriced gear shoved on your face won't make easy to get bis gear at all.
If drop rates are decent enough to have good drops once in a while, because we don't have a shop where we can insta buy everything we need, trading will be an option for those that really wants to barter. If they get the best gear in no time, that's their problem. The problem is in D3V where we have terrible loot, terrible drop rates and a terrible difficulty curve, all developed with the AH in mind.
@overneathe
srry about the title, and thanks for not deleting the good discussion we got going here.
@rest
I think everyone makes a lot of good points both for PRO and CON.
I would literate everything I talked about while on stream today in regards to the case for PRO BOA and PRO FREE TRADE, but trying to fix my site up proper.
Here is a petition and voting I started on my site (got banned from bnet so made my own site lol)
http://mannercookie.com/vote-and-petition.html
vote has been getting attacked by some PRO BOA supporters early on because the %s were heavily skewed for free trade, but overall it shows a distinct difference in opinion in the community at an almost even level.
similar poll have been floating around with similar results.
Still early to really say that the community favors one or the other, but I think it's safe to say that the community is divided on the subject and that a solution that caters to both groups of players must be integrated into ROS to truly keep everyone happy.
LADDER(BOA) AND FREE TRADE(NO BOA)
perhaps this?
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie