[suggestion] radical reduction of AH influence

  • #21
    Quote from Elendiro

    A person who has flipped, got 1 000 elite kills, 300k dps and mp10 viable.
    vs.
    A person who has played and found items for himself for 200 hours, around 10 000 elite kills, 150k dps and absolutely not mp10 viable...


    A person who aquired quite alot of knowledge about the game and used said knowledge to cleverly trade his way up to the riches
    vs
    somebody who brainlessly grinds monsters for way more time than is good for him

    Yes, the first should be rewarded IMO. But you see, that's just a opinion, The difference is that I dont call for parts of the game to be removed.






    All that complaining about how easy it is to get to super godly level with just a bit of AH flipping... First off you gotta have some starting gold, for which you have to play the game first. Second you have to actually know what you are doing, or you'll just be wasting gold. Then you need the time and the patience and the luck to find the good deals that make you rich, and then you need to find somebody who actually pays the full price for the item.

    All in all, it is not that easy, or we would all be billionaires.

    ( Yes, some use bots for it, which is cheating and totally undefendable. And yes, some throw huge ammounts of money at the game to instabuy their way to the top, but I dont think that that is too many players. Who has a few 10'000 lying around waiting for some pixels ? I dont think that these two cathegories should influence the discussion, one being cheating and forbidden and the other being very rare. )
  • #22
    Quote from Twoflower

    you obviously have not gone trough the hassle of forum trading in older games. It's terrible and having a ingame trading tool is a great thing that we should be greatful for.


    Well, I was there in D2, spend some years with DAoC and during that time Blizz invented the AH in WoW. It was a good idea and still is, I'm not saying otherwise. Like I said, it's not the root of the problem, but it shows us problems, we otherwise might not see.

    The biggest item problem is the overabundance of everything. We have gold sinks and keep getting more of them (like the recently introduced Marquise gems), so gold retains its value. Yet there is no item sink, therefore we get more Mempos every day.
    And it is really disheartening for an average player to find such a fabulous item only to find out it's worthless because there are millions of it already.

    So, KISS (keep it simple stupid) version:
    AH: good,
    flippers: not nice, but somehow natural
    resellability/reuseability of items: very, very bad

    Oh and if you played WoW, you might notice, that the first two aspects are the same there while the third isn't.
  • #23
    The best (but hardest) way to make us less "AH dependant" would be to create an alternate path of progression. This way, items would only be half of the problem and we could make our character better by playing the game. Think about it a little like parangon levels but with a variety of skills/perks/bonuses (many affecting gameplay) chosen along the way.
  • #24
    It doesn't matter if trading would take place outside of the game, in forums. The important part, which you all seem to (conveniently) disregard is this: Blizzard wouldn't balance the game around the existence of those trading forums like they do with the AH. I don't care that people have better gear than me, I don't care that "people would still flip and trade and buy their gear in 3rd party sites". I DO care that my experience when I play the game by.....actually PLAYING the game (alien concept, I know) is being negatively affected (by way of reduced drop rates) to accommodate those that want to spend hours looking at listings in the auction house.
  • #25
    Quote from Twoflower

    A person who aquired quite alot of knowledge about the game and used said knowledge to cleverly trade his way up to the riches
    vs
    somebody who brainlessly grinds monsters for way more time than is good for him

    Yes, the first should be rewarded IMO. But you see, that's just a opinion, The difference is that I dont call for parts of the game to be removed.


    It's your opionion, ok, but I disagree. You're right that it does take some skill to make money on the AH. You can either check out guides to learn, which items and stats are useful (and therefore in demand) for actually playing the game or you could just extract those informations directly from the AH by studying the item/price ratios there. But being good at the trading aspect of the game shouldn't equal being much better in the Diablo killing part of the game. It's like saying you want the best driver to win a chess tournament.

    My point is, playing the AH is not playing Diablo. It's part of it like the toilet is part of an appartment. It's a good place to go for when you need to get rid of something. And for that, it's a vast improvement over medieval outhouses. But I don't want to spend the entire f**ng day there!

    Quote from maka

    I DO care that my experience when I play the game by.....actually PLAYING the game (alien concept, I know) is being negatively affected (by way of reduced drop rates) to accommodate those that want to spend hours looking at listings in the auction house.


    absolutely agree
  • #26
    Quote from Vulmio

    The best (but hardest) way to make us less "AH dependant" would be to create an alternate path of progression. This way, items would only be half of the problem and we could make our character better by playing the game. Think about it a little like parangon levels but with a variety of skills/perks/bonuses (many affecting gameplay) chosen along the way.


    IMO we allready have leveling and paragon leveling, that's enugh progressing trough playing. ( Beside the fact that you probably will still farm from time to time to build up some wealth and to get crafting materials etc... )

    Quote from Solmyr77

    The biggest item problem is the overabundance of everything. We have gold sinks and keep getting more of them (like the recently introduced Marquise gems), so gold retains its value. Yet there is no item sink, therefore we get more Mempos every day.
    And it is really disheartening for an average player to find such a fabulous item only to find out it's worthless because there are millions of it already.


    Ok, few things to think about here imo.

    1 : More mempos every day can be a good thing, specially for people who dont have billions to throw around. As it is atm, low, middle and high class items keep getting cheaper, and only the top end highest best items keep getting more expensive. Which is good IMO, otherwise only the richest players would be wearing good gear.

    2 : We need better and worse items to make the game somewhat interesting. Not everybody should wear a mempo, or they can hand out free mempos rigth at the character creation. And I think that is more motivating than disheartening.

    3 : What do you mean by "average" players ? There is a little bit of a skill factor in this game, but most of the time the quality of your gear is directly related to the time invested. Which again is a good thing IMO. ( Of course not talking about people botting, but I think we all agree that this is so bad that we dont need to talk about it. )
  • #27
    Quote from maka

    It doesn't matter if trading would take place outside of the game, in forums.
    <snip>
    I don't care that people have better gear than me, I don't care that "people would still flip and trade and buy their gear in 3rd party sites".


    I've had sufficient back-and-forth to understand that you truly feel this way. I fully agree with you here, for the record.

    But, the cynic in me simply says that MOST people who whine about the AH (and I'm not calling you a whiner) are really whining about other people's gear. That's why they come up with derogatory phrases like "pay to win" for RMAH users and portray flipping as the downfall of modern societies despite history demonstrating that it has next to no actual effect on anything.

    There's a chasmic difference between someone like you who wants to "just play the game" - which is a COMPLETELY non-controversial position to have - and someone who wants the AH gone so that people who acquired better gear would be penalized. When I read this thread, I can't help but get the feeling that you are the ONLY person who has fallen into the first category. I mean this whole thread is about penalizing flippers (which existed in D2 online and didn't "destroy" the economy) through means that also penalize everyone else.

    Gear is so much more visible, not just because of the AH, but because of diabloprogress and the armory. It's as if people see others gear and, in their head, determine that paper doll DPS is the competitive aspect of the game and that because some hairy, sweaty dude spent six weeks flipping items on the GAH that they've been inherently wronged and are deserving of divine retribution. And, while I completely and totally agree with you that finding items for yourself HAS to be balanced in a way that feels rewarding, enjoyable, and engaging... I just don't agree with the other chuckleheads who take it to the next level and want to go around busting the kneecaps of people who have more gold than they do.

    If some guy wants to sit around all day flipping, well... good for him I guess. It's not my thing, but I'm not going to tell him he can't do it (provided he's not botting, if he's botting he can go to hell). I just want "my" way to feel rewarding too. I don't need 700 billion gold to "win" at this game so I don't really want to bother flipping items. That's my choice, much as engaging in scrolling through lists of items ad infintum is his choice.
    p407 :: 86.3k EK :: 2.40m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
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  • #28
    Quote from Solmyr77

    My point is, playing the AH is not playing Diablo. It's part of it like the toilet is part of an appartment. It's a good place to go for when you need to get rid of something. And for that, it's a vast improvement over medieval outhouses. But I don't want to spend the entire f**ng day there!


    You dont have to. Go kill shit all day. You will find stuff to sell, and you will make gold. Nobody is forcing you to play the AH. There are even players who only play selffound. If that's what you want, there is nobody stopping you from doing it.

    Same goes for Maka. But I dont like his attitude.
  • #29
    Quote from maka

    It doesn't matter if trading would take place outside of the game, in forums. The important part, which you all seem to (conveniently) disregard is this: Blizzard wouldn't balance the game around the existence of those trading forums like they do with the AH. I don't care that people have better gear than me, I don't care that "people would still flip and trade and buy their gear in 3rd party sites". I DO care that my experience when I play the game by.....actually PLAYING the game (alien concept, I know) is being negatively affected (by way of reduced drop rates) to accommodate those that want to spend hours looking at listings in the auction house.


    Current itemization sucks, yes. However I don't think there is a conspiracy to force players to use the AH. There has been no changes made to support the theory that the game is balanced around the Auction House. I remember all resist was quite a rarity before the first item changes. Now less than 70 can really hurt the value of an item. The problem is current itemization SUCKS, which makes good items unfairly expensive.

    Hypothetically let's say Lacuni Prowlers in itemization 2.0 always rolled crit and 100+ main stat. It now becomes very inexpensive to buy a "good" pair of Lacunis and always makes self found ones good. I find a couple pairs of lacunis per week and probably brim them all. However if I find 1 pair per month, there is a good chance that the second pair I find are an upgrade, and if not they would probably be good for a friend, an alt, or can be traded via whatever platform I prefer. This is why I strongly believe it is important to wait until itemization 2.0 to see exactly how it works before trying to fix an economy that won't function the same way in 8 months.
  • #30
    the problem with the ah is not the flippers and the prices. it is the low drop rate of good items. in d2 i could find all of the items i needed by simply normal farming. blizzard really made good drops so low that it made ah a valuable part of the game if you want to progress in dps or quicker farming speed. i finally got to the point where a great item cannot be found for weeks or months unless i buy it. so what is the point of farming if you cant find an upgrade regularly?
  • #31
    Quote from Serpenth


    Hypothetically let's say Lacuni Prowlers in itemization 2.0 always rolled crit and 100+ main stat. It now becomes very inexpensive to buy a "good" pair of Lacunis and always makes self found ones good. I find a couple pairs of lacunis per week and probably brim them all. However if I find 1 pair per month, there is a good chance that the second pair I find are an upgrade, and if not they would probably be good for a friend, an alt, or can be traded via whatever platform I prefer. This is why I strongly believe it is important to wait until itemization 2.0 to see exactly how it works before trying to fix an economy that won't function the same way in 8 months.


    In your hypothetical situation there would still be the same ammount of Lacunis, and those that are one or two stat points worse will still be almost worthless and the price for the "perfect" ones will still skyrocket. So overall, it wont change from today except for the few people who actually play totally self found.

    And yes, Blizzard will of course wait and work on fixes that fix everything. It's not like they saw this thread here today and are now pushing to have it done by next friday.
  • #32
    I think just making things BoE created more hurdles and problems than it solves. I really hope the devs will do the right thing before we bash eachother's skulls in here on Diablofans :S
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #33
    Quote from dizphare

    the problem with the ah is not the flippers and the prices. it is the low drop rate of good items. in d2 i could find all of the items i needed by simply normal farming. blizzard really made good drops so low that it made ah a valuable part of the game if you want to progress in dps or quicker farming speed. i finally got to the point where a great item cannot be found for weeks or months unless i buy it. so what is the point of farming if you cant find an upgrade regularly?


    if all good items have high drop rates, where is the point ? YOu play for two weeks, find every good item, then you are bored and play something else. Great game design...

    The real problem is expectations. You can quite easily play trough the entire game ( all 4 difficulties ) with selffound gear. But everybody looks at the very best players, compares his gear with theirs and comes to the conclusion that their gear sucks. The same gear that he cleared inferno with. People just need to get real about their own expectations and we would not have 99% of this discussion.

    Quote from Elendiro

    I think just making things BoE created more hurdles and problems than it solves. I really hope the devs will do the right thing before we bash eachother's skulls in here on Diablofans :S


    I am very confident that the devs will find a good solution in the end.

    Till then we bash each other in forums, isnt that the gamers favourite past time anyway ? ^^
  • #34
    Quote from Twoflower

    Ok, few things to think about here imo.

    1 : More mempos every day can be a good thing, specially for people who dont have billions to throw around. As it is atm, low, middle and high class items keep getting cheaper, and only the top end highest best items keep getting more expensive. Which is good IMO, otherwise only the richest players would be wearing good gear.

    2 : We need better and worse items to make the game somewhat interesting. Not everybody should wear a mempo, or they can hand out free mempos rigth at the character creation. And I think that is more motivating than disheartening.

    3 : What do you mean by "average" players ? There is a little bit of a skill factor in this game, but most of the time the quality of your gear is directly related to the time invested. Which again is a good thing IMO. ( Of course not talking about people botting, but I think we all agree that this is so bad that we dont need to talk about it. )


    Now I don't agree with your opinion #1, but I like opinion #2, which is the contrary ;)
    It's more rewarding to run around in yellow stuff and be ecstatic when you see that orange glowing helm some day, than it is to get an almost free Mempo handed to you at 60 via the AH for the price of your act 1 normal mode funds.

    By "average" I mean those players, who don't play so much, that they can get 20 legendaries a day, if they feel like it. For the record, I'm one of those who could. But for those average players, like some friends of mine, I feel kind of sad, when they are excited about that one legendary in 3 evenings, which then turns out to be garbage ;)

    Quote from Twoflower

    You dont have to. Go kill shit all day. You will find stuff to sell, and you will make gold. Nobody is forcing you to play the AH. There are even players who only play selffound. If that's what you want, there is nobody stopping you from doing it.


    I don't have to and I don't. But I'm not really making any meaningful money from my drops. I actually got a Mempo yesterday, it's listed at a ludicrous price of 500k and hasn't sold yet. Ludicrous because it's (almost) the best helm one could ever have in the game for a price you could pay after arriving in hell mode for the first time, I think. (edit: haha, I just saw, that I wrote a1 normal before, well ;) )

    That's where my personal gaming experience is influenced. My stuff isn't worth shit because there is just too much stuff.
    And also maka had an important point being that drop rates have been adjusted down because of the AH.

    Quote from shaggy

    I've had sufficient back-and-forth to understand that you truly feel this way. I fully agree with you here, for the record.

    But, the cynic in me simply says that MOST people who whine about the AH (and I'm not calling you a whiner) are really whining about other people's gear.


    I doubt, he's the only one who has valid reasons to complain.

    Quote from dizphare

    in d2 i could find all of the items i needed by simply normal farming. blizzard really made good drops so low that it made ah a valuable part of the game.
    [...]
    so what is the point of farming if you cant find an upgrade regularly?


    That last question pretty much sums up the most basic problem of the game.
    You don't get rewarded (enough) for playing (=farming in the Diablo franchise) the game.
    You can get rewards, but you have to "work" the AH or pay money for them.

    So, to put it as nicely as possible: It's more of a Wall Street sim than an action rpg.
  • #35
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from dizphare

    in d2 i could find all of the items i needed by simply normal farming. blizzard really made good drops so low that it made ah a valuable part of the game.
    [...]
    so what is the point of farming if you cant find an upgrade regularly?


    That last question pretty much sums up the most basic problem of the game.
    You don't get rewarded (enough) for playing (=farming in the Diablo franchise) the game.
    You can get rewards, but you have to "work" the AH or pay money for them.

    So, to put it as nicely as possible: It's more of a Wall Street sim than an action rpg.


    You can just farm the game and get upgrades "regularely". Of course the rate of upgrades will decline as your gear gets better and better, just as the price for upgrades increases as you gear gets better if you go the ah way. You can't keep getting upgrades at the rate of the early game cause that would lead to insane inflation.

    And about comparing to d2 : d2 is incredibly easy, one of the things I am very glad they changed in d3. At least in d3 you can set your own difficulty and it takes a while before you can beat the hardest one. D2 has been cleared with naked hc chars over and over again. I dont want my gaming experience watered down that much just that some people can play selffound.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    By "average" I mean those players, who don't play so much, that they can get 20 legendaries a day, if they feel like it. For the record, I'm one of those who could. But for those average players, like some friends of mine, I feel kind of sad, when they are excited about that one legendary in 3 evenings, which then turns out to be garbage ;)


    For the record, the gear you see in my profile is all collected trough playing, and while I dont own MP10 like it's nothing, I can kinda hold my ground in up to mp8-ish and do a satisfying lot of damage. By playing I mean selling stuff I find to buy upgrades, but not playing the AH.

    And if your friends still get excited about every leg that drops then they are not very familiar with the drop tables and the chances for the random attributes to be useful :D
  • #36
    Quote from Twoflower

    And if your friends still get excited about every leg that drops then they are not very familiar with the drop tables and the chances for the random attributes to be useful :D


    'Nuff said. Smart ass is smart ass.

    I though we were here to discuss the game, not laugh at "how noobish those noobs are".

    Btw, nice job not addressing this:

    Quote from maka

    The important part, which you all seem to (conveniently) disregard is this: Blizzard wouldn't balance the game around the existence of those trading forums like they do with the AH.


    Or, put another way: the game is balanced around using the AH.
  • #37
    Quote from maka

    'Nuff said. Smart ass is smart ass.


    Enugh of this "hi pot, meet kettle".

    Quote from maka

    The important part, which you all seem to (conveniently) disregard is this: Blizzard wouldn't balance the game around the existence of those trading forums like they do with the AH.


    So you think that the vast majority who wants to keep the AH should be forced out of it just so you can have your dropchances tweaked a few % when you play selffound ?
  • #38
    Quote from Twoflower


    For the record, the gear you see in my profile is all collected trough playing, and while I dont own MP10 like it's nothing, I can kinda hold my ground in up to mp8-ish and do a satisfying lot of damage. By playing I mean selling stuff I find to buy upgrades, but not playing the AH.

    And if your friends still get excited about every leg that drops then they are not very familiar with the drop tables and the chances for the random attributes to be useful :D


    You brag about gear on your profile because you have collected it yourself? You collected it yourself from the Auction house...

    :boom:

    People just don't get how much more rewarding the game is when you can find upgrades for yourself without the AH ruining the game for ya'. I know what you find rewarding, I do. Jokes aside. Everybody benefits from less loot on the floor and items with higher quality. The reason for the shitty quality and the mountains of trash loot is the AH.
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #39
    Quote from Elendiro


    You brag about gear on your profile because you have collected it yourself? You collected it yourself from the Auction house...

    People just don't get how much more rewarding the game is when you can find upgrades for yourself without the AH ruining the game for ya'. I know what you find rewarding, I do. Jokes aside. Everybody benefits from less loot on the floor and items with higher quality. The reason for the shitty quality and the mountains of trash loot is the AH.


    There is not much to brag about with my gear. And how i collected it is quite clearly explained in my last post.

    Now I am playing hc though, with pretty much selffound gear cause I have no gold...

    The loot fountains is a part of the diablo game. It was the same in d2. Loot is always flying around in huge quantities and that has nothign to do with the AH.

    How do you benefit from less loot in better quality? That sound to me like you get the same ratio of usable items.

    Please dont put words into my mouth and dont tell me how I played the game before or how I am enjoying it now. You clearly dont know much about that.
  • #40
    I have more forum post and more elite kills than you. I clearly "know much about that". That makes me better than you and my opinions and arguments more valuable. :Thumbs Up:
    Make your peace...Quickly!
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