I just wanted to understand your rationale is all. Total x vs total y is still a viable comparison, the break point in DPS will be quite different of course (and class dependent) but I understand what you saying about an inequitable fairness view.
Another way to think of it is that total nominal achievable stat of one versus the other gives a different view to just where a choice need be made. Say for example we wanted to compare effectiveness of primary stat but restricted ourselves to only Shoulders to reduce the complexity, it wouldn't be sensible as Strength gets an unfair advantage in that slot.
I completely agree that it is not a case of only seek one stat, but sadly a lot of people just want someone else to tell them what to do the math for them and blindly follow a popular mantra. You know that better than most as you also had to contend with "just stack LoH, Lifesteal is crap" zealots in previous threads ;-)
That's fine and all but I don't see it as a fair comparison because you're not comparing equally. You're comparing a potential 9+ items vs 4.
You can race my bike in your street car of choice on a track. Is that fair? Then we'll consider the winner the better driver.
Really 9 slots can get LoH? I count 5; 2 weapons, 2 rings and amulet. 959 Is the max weapon proc for LoH, whereas amulets cap out at about 669, and rings cap out at 339. It takes 2 rings to equal 1 amulet, and about 1.5 amulets to equal a weapon as far as max LoH goes. The LoH found on unique items is negligible, none of them have over 100 in slots that don't have the chance to proc LoH, and none of them are really worth using anyways, even when first entering inferno.
If you only want to compare on a weapon, 959/3=320ish LoH per 1% LL. 3265 LoH is the max you can get from gear. A barb can get up to 12% LL with the passive. 3265/12=272 LoH per 1% LL. If anything, the comparison I made is biased towards LL, not LoH and LoH is obviously superior.
Feared/Frozen/Shielded and not enough AR, you get dropped in a second.
I don't see how this changes the situation if you are stacking LoH or LL, either way its a bad situation .
In the case of feared or frozen, or jailed just out of melee range, your spells or aoes that are already up can LL WHILE your CC'd, imo thats the strongest feature of LL.
LoH is best for certain OP skills, like monk's thunderclap, and when you are below a certain dps, in the middle-tier of dps a mix is best, and at top level dps LL pulls ahead.
That's why Bashiok or Jay said ( I forget who ) that this stat would be OP in a few months when everyones DPS started to max out.
That's fine and all but I don't see it as a fair comparison because you're not comparing equally. You're comparing a potential 9+ items vs 4.
You can race my bike in your street car of choice on a track. Is that fair? Then we'll consider the winner the better driver.
Really 9 slots can get LoH? I count 5; 2 weapons, 2 rings and amulet. 959 Is the max weapon proc for LoH, whereas amulets cap out at about 669, and rings cap out at 339. It takes 2 rings to equal 1 amulet, and about 1.5 amulets to equal a weapon as far as max LoH goes. The LoH found on unique items is negligible, none of them have over 100 in slots that don't have the chance to proc LoH, and none of them are really worth using anyways, even when first entering inferno.
If you only want to compare on a weapon, 959/3=320ish LoH per 1% LL. 3265 LoH is the max you can get from gear. A barb can get up to 12% LL with the passive. 3265/12=272 LoH per 1% LL. If anything, the comparison I made is biased towards LL, not LoH and LoH is obviously superior.
In addition to what you stated you can get it on legendary gloves and legendary pants. Also gems.
Btw blackthornes are very underrated pants for a MF set, lots of EHP potential.
Yes, I did read what I quoted. You asked where I got 9 from so I said it. If I didn't read it I wouldn't have mentioned blackthornes because you'd be a moron to not see they compare EHP wise (not counting the LOH) to pants that are 10m+ and they cost like 1m.
You're either comparing max loh vs max life steal or you're comparing single property to single property.You're just trying to make it fit your argument.
You also didn't mention gems so I brought that up. My point is 9 vs 4 is not fair just like 5v4 is not fair. That's it. It's that simple.
Compare stat for stat on slot for slot for stat like an intelligent person would. You don't try to compare X v Y but then throw in Z. You don't see a good scientist attempt something without controlling/limiting the variables as much as possible.
I mean do you build your gear the same way you compare things rather than weighing it against your options for that particular slot? HMMM I need 800 resist 8k armor 1643 loh 3% life steal 72,584 dmg. You probably also think that 175 vit and 80 resist all item is better than 280 vit. (not counting shouts or % life healing)
Besides you already illustrated the point that you didn't do any serious testing with loh vs life steal when you brought up AOE. Because that doesn't change anything unless LOH doesn't proc on that aoe ability. (like sweeping winds) As far as barbs go that isn't the case.
Yes, I did read what I quoted. You asked where I got 9 from so I said it. If I didn't read it I wouldn't have mentioned blackthornes because you'd be a moron to not see they compare EHP wise (not counting the LOH) to pants that are 10m+ and they cost like 1m.
You're either comparing max loh vs max life steal or you're comparing single property to single property.You're just trying to make it fit your argument.
You also didn't mention gems so I brought that up. My point is 9 vs 4 is not fair just like 5v4 is not fair. That's it. It's that simple.
Compare stat for stat on slot for slot for stat like an intelligent person would. You don't see a good scientist attempt something without controlling/limiting the variables as much as possible. I mean do you build your gear the same way you compare things rather than weighing it against your options for that particular slot?
YO DAWG MY CHEST HAS MORE STATS THAN MY LEGS FUCK LEGS SUCK.
Besides you already illustrated the point that you didn't do any serious testing with loh vs life steal when you brought up AOE. Because that doesn't change anything unless LOH doesn't proc on that aoe ability. (like sweeping winds) As far as barbs go that isn't the case.
Blackthorne's are ok if you wanna tank, but with the stats we were talking about in the comparison, its unrealistic to think that anyone would chose to use blackthorne's because they have very little contribution to damage. And again, the LoH proc isn't even worth mentioning its so low. I was assuming common sense would be taken into account, my mistake.
Different slots have different stat allocations, you cant make a 1:1 comparison in just one slot. I thought this was obvious but apparently not.
Gems: again, no one is using LoH gems with that amount of LoH already on their gear or high damage (assumed, since LL is worthless in low end gear and then there isn't even an argument to be made here).
An "intelligent" person would know that unless you ran hundreds of permutations, logged the data, and used statistical analysis, just running around and going by what your gut feeling is better is a meaningless conclusion; hence the reason I resorted to math rather than testing to make my case.
Anyways since this has derailed to the point of name-calling there is no point in continuing the discussion. You and I seem to be trying to make separate points, and I think we both got our respective points across.
Blackthorne's are ok if you wanna tank, but with the stats we were talking about in the comparison, its unrealistic to think that anyone would chose to use blackthorne's because they have very little contribution to damage. And again, the LoH proc isn't even worth mentioning its so low. I was assuming common sense would be taken into account, my mistake.
Different slots have different stat allocations, you cant make a 1:1 comparison in just one slot. I thought this was obvious but apparently not.
Gems: again, no one is using LoH gems with that amount of LoH already on their gear or high damage (assumed, since LL is worthless in low end gear and then there isn't even an argument to be made here).
An "intelligent" person would know that unless you ran hundreds of permutations, logged the data, and used statistical analysis, just running around and going by what your gut feeling is better is a meaningless conclusion; hence the reason I resorted to math rather than testing to make my case.
Anyways since this has derailed to the point of name-calling there is no point in continuing the discussion. You and I seem to be trying to make separate points, and I think we both got our respective points across.
Gut feeling? If you look at the thread I linked, I'm pretty sure I used math. I know it's a lot of work to read all of that math which is exactly why I don't want to model damage for barbs. I'd also be willing to bet you didn't even model it.
I'll take my friends word that at his gear level 3% ll = 631 loh per nado per target since apparently his 5 nados are doing 720k dmg a second. He isn't the best geared so it's probably reasonable to expect somebody to obtain gear or already has gear capable of hitting the break point that life steal surpasses loh for a barb. I know it's happened with monks by more than 40k dmg.
I will concede that at that point for pve purposes, you would not need the life on hit or life steal though. Your damage would be so high that health globes and cool downs would suffice.
Oh and I edited the above post before you posted because I knew you would say stat allocations are different even though the only difference is 3 socket vs 2. Unless of course you're saying you can't compare loh vs life steal on a weapon. In which case I don't know what to say. So I'll assume the former.
I don't say hmm X crit is the max crit and crit is good so I'll get that, or hey I'll get 42.39 crit. I say hmm 4.5 crit is max on rings, how much is that in terms of damage? Let's compare it 34 crit dmg, 9ias, Max + dmg. etc. Then I pick the top stats I can obtain for that slot. Completely independent of other slots aside from 1 rule. Take advantage of 300 vit on chest/legs and whatever 2 items are your 300 primary.
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I just wanted to understand your rationale is all. Total x vs total y is still a viable comparison, the break point in DPS will be quite different of course (and class dependent) but I understand what you saying about an inequitable fairness view.
Another way to think of it is that total nominal achievable stat of one versus the other gives a different view to just where a choice need be made. Say for example we wanted to compare effectiveness of primary stat but restricted ourselves to only Shoulders to reduce the complexity, it wouldn't be sensible as Strength gets an unfair advantage in that slot.
I completely agree that it is not a case of only seek one stat, but sadly a lot of people just want someone else to tell them what to do the math for them and blindly follow a popular mantra. You know that better than most as you also had to contend with "just stack LoH, Lifesteal is crap" zealots in previous threads ;-)
Really 9 slots can get LoH? I count 5; 2 weapons, 2 rings and amulet. 959 Is the max weapon proc for LoH, whereas amulets cap out at about 669, and rings cap out at 339. It takes 2 rings to equal 1 amulet, and about 1.5 amulets to equal a weapon as far as max LoH goes. The LoH found on unique items is negligible, none of them have over 100 in slots that don't have the chance to proc LoH, and none of them are really worth using anyways, even when first entering inferno.
If you only want to compare on a weapon, 959/3=320ish LoH per 1% LL. 3265 LoH is the max you can get from gear. A barb can get up to 12% LL with the passive. 3265/12=272 LoH per 1% LL. If anything, the comparison I made is biased towards LL, not LoH and LoH is obviously superior.
In the case of feared or frozen, or jailed just out of melee range, your spells or aoes that are already up can LL WHILE your CC'd, imo thats the strongest feature of LL.
LoH is best for certain OP skills, like monk's thunderclap, and when you are below a certain dps, in the middle-tier of dps a mix is best, and at top level dps LL pulls ahead.
That's why Bashiok or Jay said ( I forget who ) that this stat would be OP in a few months when everyones DPS started to max out.
I still don't see where u are going with this, as they can also proc LoH...
Where as LL is based off ANY damage you do.
In addition to what you stated you can get it on legendary gloves and legendary pants. Also gems.
Btw blackthornes are very underrated pants for a MF set, lots of EHP potential.
Yes, I did read what I quoted. You asked where I got 9 from so I said it. If I didn't read it I wouldn't have mentioned blackthornes because you'd be a moron to not see they compare EHP wise (not counting the LOH) to pants that are 10m+ and they cost like 1m.
You're either comparing max loh vs max life steal or you're comparing single property to single property.You're just trying to make it fit your argument.
You also didn't mention gems so I brought that up. My point is 9 vs 4 is not fair just like 5v4 is not fair. That's it. It's that simple.
Compare stat for stat on slot for slot for stat like an intelligent person would. You don't try to compare X v Y but then throw in Z. You don't see a good scientist attempt something without controlling/limiting the variables as much as possible.
I mean do you build your gear the same way you compare things rather than weighing it against your options for that particular slot? HMMM I need 800 resist 8k armor 1643 loh 3% life steal 72,584 dmg. You probably also think that 175 vit and 80 resist all item is better than 280 vit. (not counting shouts or % life healing)
Besides you already illustrated the point that you didn't do any serious testing with loh vs life steal when you brought up AOE. Because that doesn't change anything unless LOH doesn't proc on that aoe ability. (like sweeping winds) As far as barbs go that isn't the case.
Blackthorne's are ok if you wanna tank, but with the stats we were talking about in the comparison, its unrealistic to think that anyone would chose to use blackthorne's because they have very little contribution to damage. And again, the LoH proc isn't even worth mentioning its so low. I was assuming common sense would be taken into account, my mistake.
Different slots have different stat allocations, you cant make a 1:1 comparison in just one slot. I thought this was obvious but apparently not.
Gems: again, no one is using LoH gems with that amount of LoH already on their gear or high damage (assumed, since LL is worthless in low end gear and then there isn't even an argument to be made here).
An "intelligent" person would know that unless you ran hundreds of permutations, logged the data, and used statistical analysis, just running around and going by what your gut feeling is better is a meaningless conclusion; hence the reason I resorted to math rather than testing to make my case.
Anyways since this has derailed to the point of name-calling there is no point in continuing the discussion. You and I seem to be trying to make separate points, and I think we both got our respective points across.
Gut feeling? If you look at the thread I linked, I'm pretty sure I used math. I know it's a lot of work to read all of that math which is exactly why I don't want to model damage for barbs. I'd also be willing to bet you didn't even model it.
I'll take my friends word that at his gear level 3% ll = 631 loh per nado per target since apparently his 5 nados are doing 720k dmg a second. He isn't the best geared so it's probably reasonable to expect somebody to obtain gear or already has gear capable of hitting the break point that life steal surpasses loh for a barb. I know it's happened with monks by more than 40k dmg.
I will concede that at that point for pve purposes, you would not need the life on hit or life steal though. Your damage would be so high that health globes and cool downs would suffice.
Oh and I edited the above post before you posted because I knew you would say stat allocations are different even though the only difference is 3 socket vs 2. Unless of course you're saying you can't compare loh vs life steal on a weapon. In which case I don't know what to say. So I'll assume the former.
I don't say hmm X crit is the max crit and crit is good so I'll get that, or hey I'll get 42.39 crit. I say hmm 4.5 crit is max on rings, how much is that in terms of damage? Let's compare it 34 crit dmg, 9ias, Max + dmg. etc. Then I pick the top stats I can obtain for that slot. Completely independent of other slots aside from 1 rule. Take advantage of 300 vit on chest/legs and whatever 2 items are your 300 primary.