It sounds like you didn't even read my reasoning for WHY blizzard is trying to defer bosses from being a viable source of loot Seluhir.
Bosses are not random, bosses are very static and very specific. It would be a lot easier to make a character tailor suited to take down a specific boss repeatedly. You wouldn’t have to have a flexible character and because of this it would be *better* to just farm bosses as the kill consistency would be higher. This is the primary reason Blizzard is trying to deter boss runs as part of the loot grinding game.
It just feels like the current model is going to make the boss highly anticlimactic
Actually it's quite the opposite. Again, as I said before, the first time boss kills are BY FAR the best source of loot making the quest kill (the only one you are forced to do through story progression) very climactic in regards to loot dropping. If you choose to kill a boss again when you don't have to, the loot drop is adjusted accordingly.
I totally understand the desire to have the most badass fights be the best place to get loot, but it's actually not in the best interest of the game for it to be that way.
@ DarkPhenomenon - I totally understand where you are coming from. But as Blizzard has it now, it makes it -sound- like bosses will be worthless to kill after the initial takedown. The reason being that, people are assuming that in the amount of time it takes to kill a boss, you could kill at LEAST 1 rare/champion (a reasonable assumtion I would say). Rares/champions will also have a HIGHER drop rate than bosses. Thus, it would be much better for loot-per-time-invested to just ignore the boss at the end of an area in favor of killing more rares/champions.
I think a lot of people (at least myself) are angry about this fact. I don't want bosses to be the BEST method of obtaining good loot, but I also don't want to feel any reason to skip them either.
Sure bosses will be "predictable", but getting to them won't nessisarily be easy (and certainly nowhere near as easy in D2, Blizzard has said as much), especially with the loss of Enigma/Teleport.
Fine if Blizzard wants to discourage farming bosses as -the- main source of loot. Shame if Blizzard discourages killing bosses at all (which is what its looking like at the moment).
@ DarkPhenomenon - I totally understand where you are coming from. But as Blizzard has it now, it makes it -sound- like bosses will be worthless to kill after the initial takedown. The reason being that, people are assuming that in the amount of time it takes to kill a boss, you could kill at LEAST 1 rare/champion (a reasonable assumtion I would say). Rares/champions will also have a HIGHER drop rate than bosses. Thus, it would be much better for loot-per-time-invested to just ignore the boss at the end of an area in favor of killing more rares/champions.
I think a lot of people (at least myself) are angry about this fact. I don't want bosses to be the BEST method of obtaining good loot, but I also don't want to feel any reason to skip them either.
Sure bosses will be "predictable", but getting to them won't nessisarily be easy (and certainly nowhere near as easy in D2, Blizzard has said as much), especially with the loss of Enigma/Teleport.
Fine if Blizzard wants to discourage farming bosses as -the- main source of loot. Shame if Blizzard discourages killing bosses at all (which is what its looking like at the moment).
I agree with the most of the previous stated posts except one point.
If you want to grind every moment of every second of D3 good on you, sucks for the boss thing. Me I'll still kill the bosses for fun after I clear an act, I can afford those few precious minutes having fun rather than mindlessly killing champions for six hours.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Fine if Blizzard wants to discourage farming bosses as -the- main source of loot. Shame if Blizzard discourages killing bosses at all (which is what its looking like at the moment).
I can't really argue this point. They may be taking the discouraging of bosses a bit too far but I think that's more a tuning point vs a disagreement with their design philosophies of making the Random champions the best source of loot vs bosses. It's impossible to debate how far tuned this is one way or another since we can't actually play it yet
For the record I do think boss farming should be viable, I just think it should be inferior to random/champ farming due to Blizzard's reasoning among other responses throughout this thread.
- Bosses will have a higher chance to drop better loot than normal mobs.
- Rare/Champions will have a slightly higher chance to drop loot than Bosses.
- Bosses are confirmed everytime a game is created
- Rare/Champions are NOT confirmed everytime a game is created
In D2 I know that Rare/Champions mostly spawned at specific areas in the game and had a chance to spawn. In D3 I would assume and hope that they truly are random in their spawning.
This means if you're lucky enough to have one spawn, why not give them a higher chance of dropping better loot. This isn't something you can farm, its a bonus on your way to the boss.
At least that's the way I understand how things will work.
- Bosses will have a higher chance to drop better loot than normal mobs.
- Rare/Champions will have a slightly higher chance to drop loot than Bosses.
- Bosses are confirmed everytime a game is created
- Rare/Champions are NOT confirmed everytime a game is created
In D2 I know that Rare/Champions mostly spawned at specific areas in the game and had a chance to spawn. In D3 I would assume and hope that they truly are random in their spawning.
This means if you're lucky enough to have one spawn, why not give them a higher chance of dropping better loot. This isn't something you can farm, its a bonus on your way to the boss.
At least that's the way I understand how things will work.
Yup, this is how I understand it as well.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Definitely a good thing. Diablo II's item system before expansion was much the same way and kept the game more unique because the godly items were usually rare. It was much more fun, glad to see it's going to be this way in D III.
If something that spawns in sets of 3-4 has a higher loot droprate than a boss(ie. a champion) that'll be kinda sad really. It'll mean one champion pack will have FOUR TIMES the loot drop chance of a boss.
If something that spawns in sets of 3-4 has a higher loot droprate than a boss(ie. a champion) that'll be kinda sad really. It'll mean one champion pack will have FOUR TIMES the loot drop chance of a boss.
I am sure blizzard is not that dumb...
Obviously they meant that the sum of the drop chances per pack are greater than that of the boss.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
How do you evaluate a 'per pack' droprate? It's not like you only get loot from the last one you kill. Or do you mean that it's a cumulative - in which case how many champions are they assuming? 2, 3, or 4. I've seen packs of 2, 3, and 4 champions in the beta. It's possibly they only spawn in fours later on, but I would find that unlikely since 'random' is the name of the game, and removing options removes randomness. And if they're assuming 2, then 4 is still twice as high. If they're assuming 4, then packs of 2 are much much lower.
From an item point of view, I like this better. Although there is something to being able to easily say I have a +20 Occy versus having to know every single suffix/prefix in the game.
That said, farming is still going to be farming. And even in Inferno, there is going to be one or two areas in the game where there are X number of monsters that are Y difficulty. People will strive to find a location where they can max X and min Y. It's the nature of the beast. So then farming will simply become running that "area" over and over again.
From an item point of view, I like this better. Although there is something to being able to easily say I have a +20 Occy versus having to know every single suffix/prefix in the game.
That said, farming is still going to be farming. And even in Inferno, there is going to be one or two areas in the game where there are X number of monsters that are Y difficulty. People will strive to find a location where they can max X and min Y. It's the nature of the beast. So then farming will simply become running that "area" over and over again.
I think difficulty will be very "density" specific rather than ability specific. D2 has entire zones/areas where you don't see "cold immune" as an example - I think D3 will be much more encounter specific and hopefully there will always be some way to kill any group (even if its slow/inefficient). From what they've said they want all areas of inferno to be meaningful - maybe not to everyone based on art style or whatever but a viable place to hunt.
My only real feeling for finding a place that is "better" will be one that has the monster density I'm looking for - AOE chars want lots of little mobs tightly packed - smaller chance of loot but more chances vs. a heavy hitting char looking for evenly spaced high hp mobs - fewer mobs but better drop chances.
Assuming all areas can spawn champs and minidungeons the above will be my only real criteria.
Boss first kill should have higher drop rates (and I think it works this way right now), after that I'll just explore the world and enter every random dungeon I'll be able to find (and hopefully come out of it alive and happier ).
Rare and uniques are going to be my prey (or will it be the other way round?!? )
People will strive to find a location where they can max X and min Y. It's the nature of the beast. So then farming will simply become running that "area" over and over again.
Yup, and Blizzard has said multiple times that once that "area" has been discovered, Blizzard will adjust it accordingly so that "area" is no longer the go to place to farm. People will look for the new "Area" and Blizzard will repeat the cycle until that "area" doesn't exist anymore.
Boss run farming is boring. You just run around ignore all monsters and kill the boss and restart the game... nothing fun in that. they did the right thing, exploring and killing mobs + finding champions and rares is alot more entertaining. In diablo you could find some of the best items inside a barrel if you're lucky, so it doesn't really matters who drops the best thing. Bosses will still be worth killing because you know where they are, as for champions and rares they will spawn randomly so you have to look for them and you might find none on some games.
I bet Blizz will play with drop rates and try to fine tune it with patches.
This is something they could do quite easily, maybe give bosses higher rates on some stuff and a lower one anything else while keeping champs/rares more balanced.
I mean this is something they can play with ease by hotpatching servers.
They can also made it semi-random, someday bosses will be more keen on dropping uniques, the day after the same boss would be more set-oriented.
Or going extreme they can setup a pool of looting tables and each time a boss spawn its randomly linked to one of such tables.
If it's your lucky day the boss will be linked to a uber-nice looting table.
Boss run farming is boring. You just run around ignore all monsters and kill the boss and restart the game... nothing fun in that. they did the right thing, exploring and killing mobs + finding champions and rares is alot more entertaining. In diablo you could find some of the best items inside a barrel if you're lucky, so it doesn't really matters who drops the best thing. Bosses will still be worth killing because you know where they are, as for champions and rares they will spawn randomly so you have to look for them and you might find none on some games.
As I said, beefing up trash is ok, I like killing everything, did it back in D2 when they didn't have uber loot, HOWEVER I WILL NOT (E M P H A S I S) attempt a single kill on bosses on hell or inferno aside from progression wise and risk my ass for a lower incentive than what den-of-evil-type-zombies have to offer.
Cannot clarify this any further.
Making trash worth killing = good.
Making bosses not worth killing = bad. (lol seems i can >.<)
Cannot stress this enough tho.
Just because something have a slightly lower drop rate than something else doesn't mean it's not worth killing (see barrel statement). Good loot can drop from anything in diablo. It makes perfect sense that random spawn rares and champions have a better drop rate than static bosses. They want to avoid boss farming, what part of that you don't understand again? you kill bosses to progress in the game and you progress to get higher level, reach new areas and find better loots... that's incentive for you.
Actually it's quite the opposite. Again, as I said before, the first time boss kills are BY FAR the best source of loot making the quest kill (the only one you are forced to do through story progression) very climactic in regards to loot dropping. If you choose to kill a boss again when you don't have to, the loot drop is adjusted accordingly.
I totally understand the desire to have the most badass fights be the best place to get loot, but it's actually not in the best interest of the game for it to be that way.
I think a lot of people (at least myself) are angry about this fact. I don't want bosses to be the BEST method of obtaining good loot, but I also don't want to feel any reason to skip them either.
Sure bosses will be "predictable", but getting to them won't nessisarily be easy (and certainly nowhere near as easy in D2, Blizzard has said as much), especially with the loss of Enigma/Teleport.
Fine if Blizzard wants to discourage farming bosses as -the- main source of loot. Shame if Blizzard discourages killing bosses at all (which is what its looking like at the moment).
I agree with the most of the previous stated posts except one point.
If you want to grind every moment of every second of D3 good on you, sucks for the boss thing. Me I'll still kill the bosses for fun after I clear an act, I can afford those few precious minutes having fun rather than mindlessly killing champions for six hours.
I can't really argue this point. They may be taking the discouraging of bosses a bit too far but I think that's more a tuning point vs a disagreement with their design philosophies of making the Random champions the best source of loot vs bosses. It's impossible to debate how far tuned this is one way or another since we can't actually play it yet
For the record I do think boss farming should be viable, I just think it should be inferior to random/champ farming due to Blizzard's reasoning among other responses throughout this thread.
- Bosses will have a higher chance to drop better loot than normal mobs.
- Rare/Champions will have a slightly higher chance to drop loot than Bosses.
- Bosses are confirmed everytime a game is created
- Rare/Champions are NOT confirmed everytime a game is created
In D2 I know that Rare/Champions mostly spawned at specific areas in the game and had a chance to spawn. In D3 I would assume and hope that they truly are random in their spawning.
This means if you're lucky enough to have one spawn, why not give them a higher chance of dropping better loot. This isn't something you can farm, its a bonus on your way to the boss.
At least that's the way I understand how things will work.
Yup, this is how I understand it as well.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am sure blizzard is not that dumb...
Obviously they meant that the sum of the drop chances per pack are greater than that of the boss.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
That said, farming is still going to be farming. And even in Inferno, there is going to be one or two areas in the game where there are X number of monsters that are Y difficulty. People will strive to find a location where they can max X and min Y. It's the nature of the beast. So then farming will simply become running that "area" over and over again.
My only real feeling for finding a place that is "better" will be one that has the monster density I'm looking for - AOE chars want lots of little mobs tightly packed - smaller chance of loot but more chances vs. a heavy hitting char looking for evenly spaced high hp mobs - fewer mobs but better drop chances.
Assuming all areas can spawn champs and minidungeons the above will be my only real criteria.
Boss first kill should have higher drop rates (and I think it works this way right now), after that I'll just explore the world and enter every random dungeon I'll be able to find (and hopefully come out of it alive and happier ).
Rare and uniques are going to be my prey (or will it be the other way round?!? )
Yup, and Blizzard has said multiple times that once that "area" has been discovered, Blizzard will adjust it accordingly so that "area" is no longer the go to place to farm. People will look for the new "Area" and Blizzard will repeat the cycle until that "area" doesn't exist anymore.
This is something they could do quite easily, maybe give bosses higher rates on some stuff and a lower one anything else while keeping champs/rares more balanced.
I mean this is something they can play with ease by hotpatching servers.
They can also made it semi-random, someday bosses will be more keen on dropping uniques, the day after the same boss would be more set-oriented.
Or going extreme they can setup a pool of looting tables and each time a boss spawn its randomly linked to one of such tables.
If it's your lucky day the boss will be linked to a uber-nice looting table.
Then you just have to kill it....
Just because something have a slightly lower drop rate than something else doesn't mean it's not worth killing (see barrel statement). Good loot can drop from anything in diablo. It makes perfect sense that random spawn rares and champions have a better drop rate than static bosses. They want to avoid boss farming, what part of that you don't understand again? you kill bosses to progress in the game and you progress to get higher level, reach new areas and find better loots... that's incentive for you.
nah. Not gonna argue with you at this point. all you're making is assumptions and whining about it.