How To Extend The Life Of Your Product For A Billion Years
Diablo is a franchise that would benefit greatly from player generated content. What I think they should do is something that is a good mix between Warcraft 3's map editor/scripting tools and City of Heroes' recently released Architect feature.
The logistics are simple. You can spend countless man-hours developing content for your players (which you should still do, I expect a robust story driven Diablo this time around!), or (also and) you can spend countless man-hours developing the tools for players to develop content for themselves and others. And get headlines like this...
For the sake of simplicity, let's just call this feature Custom Games, like in Warcraft 3. Separate from any ladders or other multiplayer gametypes.
Lets highlight some of the ideal features:
*For reference sake, when I use the term map, it can be assumed that this is refering to outdoor areas, or indoor dungeons.
- Includes a fully featured map editor complete with rich scripting tools and functions
- Player can fully customize monsters by choosing their name, stats, special attributes, and aesthetic by selecting from a range of pre-defined skins and colors.
- Player can edit the loot table of any customized monster, pulling from a list of pre-defined Diablo 3 weapons, armor, and items. To prevent abuse, each monster rarity type will have their own item cap. Each item, depending on it's quality and rarity, will have a scored number value. You may only include items in the monsters loot table until you have hit that value cap. The cap can not be edited, but the rarity of the monster can, consequently increasing the cap. You can only have a certain number of monster rarity types per map area. For instance, the player may not fill their map with 100 unique-rarity monsters.
- Players may import their own skins and models for monsters and npcs, allowing for truly unique denizens on their created maps.
- Players may fully customize npcs by choosing stats, special attributes, and appearance options. Npcs can be made into vendors in which case the player may edit their sellable items. As with monster customization, npcs have an item cap so they cannot be loaded with rare and unique items. Each item has a pre-defined cost based on the quality of the item and stat weights.
- Players may create their own weapons, armor and items using their own imported models and textures or using predefined models and textures. Similar to monster loot tables, weapons cannot be loaded with incredible stats. Each weapon type, depending on the rarity you assign it, is allowed only a set number of stats. Each stat has it's own "weight" which, when added to the weapon, works towards the stat weight cap. You cannot exceed the cap. The cap is defined by the rarity.
- Players may fully edit the environments allowing placement of Diablo 3 assets into their created map.
- Players can control many aspects of the environment and script them to trigger based on events or scenarios. Players can control the lighting of any object, as well as the overall map lightning. This allows for complete control over the atmosphere of the created map. Aiming for that survival-horror feel? Totally possible with the right lighting and level design.
- Players can script events using items, assets, npcs, monsters, areas, time elapsed, and much more.
- Players can create story arcs that branch to and from different player created maps. Let's just call this feature a Tome for now. A Tome consists of all of the player created maps in a given story arc. When players download the Tome they are downloading multiple maps, and when they play the game they are seamlessly loaded between the maps when they entered the user defined areas that allow them to transition to the next map.
I will expand on these ideas a little bit later, I'm short on time right now. You guys can also expand on these areas.
A few things to keep in mind. While we want to have as much freedom as possible with generated content, do not overlook the limits and caps that need to be set in order to prevent players from abusing the creation tools and just making worlds that drop nothing but set items and uniques. This is incredibly detrimental to the online diablo community. Akin to dupe hacking. We all know what that is like, and we all hate it.
Also, while this feature is incredibly ambitious and perhaps so much that it couldn't possibly be fit in Diablo 3 before release, keep in mind there are opportunities for expansions. And content patches. And also dreaming and wishful thinking.
User created content could be a nice addition, just as long as it is isolated. As long as you can't bring in your bnet characters, or if you do, no changes are made to them, to make sure that its not used as a twinking tool... But that tool could add a great deal of replay value like WC3's map editor.
Though I would prefer to see them patch this in so it doesn't hold up release!
Yes, I agree too. Games that allow user created content increases their "survivability" as you said. One negative fact to this is people can plaster the web with useless content, such as in Spore. Where you have to sort through thousands of retarded creatures to find one good one. But a fix to this could be that you just have the user created content rated.
I think this is a great idea. I believe, like Indestructible said, that a 'rating' system would reduce the time required searching for an interesting game, quest, or map to play. I also think this would be a fun way to see how Diablo fans would create their own world. The options are basically endless, you could create PvP style maps or even Capture the Flag and King of the Hill styled games to keep things interesting.
...You shouldn't be able to enter custom maps with your regular characters. It's THE obvious fix. And then you can let the players do whatever the fuck they want, like in Open Bnet.
I suppose they could make it so you can create a copy of your realm character for use in a custom game.
Exactly what I was thinking, I'd like to see the 2nd option allowed though, and not just regular chars, as a lot of player get attached to their main character. Also have it it customizable so that on some maps you have to choose from premade chars, or start new ones.
It would be nice if they didn't limit what you could do in the tools allowing you to create a ton of 'mini' game like in wc3. If you make a map where tons of set items and such drop, then its no big deal, its just if its over the top it probably wont be a fun/popular module.
I think it would be pretty cool. As long as it had its own mode. SC/HC/Custom
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.
-Hunter S. Thompson
More like Ladder/Non-ladder/Custom.
You should be able to do hardcore custom games after all
Good point. I must have been out of the Diablo loop for longer than I thought.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Okay, I think I would rather have them create cool content themselves. But I have to agree that Warcraft 3 was a cool game because of it's customizabiilty. Anyway, rather not in Diablo.
As for what I really wanted to say..
Do you actually think we should be able to enter these maps with our normal characters? Because no matter what limits you put on it, we will be able to get some kind of unfair advantages. Why would you even think about this? It's simple. You shouldn't be able to enter custom maps with your regular characters. It's THE obvious fix. And then you can let the players do whatever the fuck they want, like in Open Bnet.
I suppose they could make it so you can create a copy of your realm character for use in a custom game.
Yeah, I would imagine this feature only to be accessible to open bnet characters. To keep things nice and tidy and in Blizzard's control, server-side realm characters shouldn't be able to access custom content.
However, the option to copy your realm character for use with custom games (essentially copying your realm character to an open bnet character slot) is a good idea. Some people just don't play open bnet. To make it easier for them, so, you know, they don't have to grind up a new character to play some custom games.
The thing that excites me the most about this type of feature is what happened with Warcraft 3. DOTA aside, there were some truly unique and fun gameplay experiences that couldn't possibly be offered in the stand alone Warcraft 3 game. With scripting and creativity, some players were able to do some really incredible things.
Some custom games that come to mind are Dawn of the Dead survival horror games, the Final Fantasy rpg maps, and of course Angel Arena, or Hero Arena, or Ultimate Whatever Arena; it went through a few names. There are of course other great examples of creative and intelligent scripting.
I LOVE this idea! As was stated before it will need a rating system to ensure that crap content gets pushed towards the bottom of the list. Either way, I think this idea should be given a serious push into Blizzard's face. Here are some ideas I have to make it function well within the Diablo universe:
Maintaining a high standard of quality:
> There should be several minimum requirements before custom content can be published on battle.net. These would essentially weed out the super-amateurs and make sure people put some effort into their content before publishing it. People could still make and play their own unfinished adventures, but they couldn't publish them on battle.net unless the simple minimum requirements were met, for example:
--> Minimum map size to prevent 5 minute adventures.
--> Minimum enemy count to make sure the adventure isn't just in design stages.
--> Minimum doodad count to ensure an aesthetically pleasing adventure.
--> Minimum playtest time, something small like 1 hour just to make sure it isn't published with an impossibly tough first enemy or something.
Keep it separate:
> Custom content should be very much separated from Blizzards Diablo 3 universe. Here's how:
--> Custom content should be on neither open nor closed battle.net. It should have it's own separate "realm".
--> Each "adventure" should be able to contain as many levels as the creator wants.
--> To the content creator's discretion, the player should be able to create new characters that persist in the adventure, or be given previously created characters to play with
--> Characters from custom adventures will remain 100% unique to that adventure and can't be taken into a different adventure.
--> In the list of custom adventures there should be some indicator to let people know if an adventure has 3rd party content such as character models or textures. This should just make it easier for people to find Diablo-like adventures vs. totally different adventures.
--> Adventure creators should have the ability to update their adventures whenever they want, but the characters people have created in their adventures should persist no matter what kind of update they're making. In other words they'll have to make sure that any additions are in line with the rest of their adventure. If they want to take the adventure in an entirely different direction they'll have to start over.
If Blizzard did this I would buy Diablo 3, make my own full-fledged adventures, and buy 10 extra copies of the game and make all my friends play my adventures. How can Blizzard say "no" to that kind of promise!
--> To the content creator's discretion, the player should be able to create new characters that persist in the adventure, or be given previously created characters to play with
--> Characters from custom adventures will remain 100% unique to that adventure and can't be taken into a different adventure.
Not a bad idea.
There is a snag though. Considering the amount of custom games players will cycle through, we're potentially looking at hundreds of character slots needed just for custom games.
And then there's open and closed bnet.
It's not impossible, but we'd have to start looking at a completely new character selection front-end for such an implementation. Like... a drop down list, or something lol.
Or it could be context sensitive. Like if you hover over or select a custom game, there could be a pop up that displays the characters you currently have saved for that particular custom game. Or something.
I think your chances of getting this feature implemented is frighteningly small. Blizzard is, as far as I know, not interested in supporting the modding community, which is a shame.
I like the general idea though of user-created content, but you will have to separate these characters from Closed B.net (or the equivalent) which will thin out the internet population and detract from Blizzard's content.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Considering the amount of custom games players will cycle through, we're potentially looking at hundreds of character slots needed just for custom games.
...
Like if you hover over or select a custom game, there could be a pop up that displays the characters you currently have saved for that particular custom game.
I like the solution you've created here. If you're worried about storing the hundreds of characters, I think the file size of those will be very small in comparison to the file size of the custom content. That's probably the limiting factor right now.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
I think your chances of getting this feature implemented is frighteningly small. Blizzard is, as far as I know, not interested in supporting the modding community, which is a shame.
The custom content system we're suggesting is very similar to Starcraft/Warcraft's map editors. Blizzard is very supportive of this kind of custom content creation, and I think the things this community is coming up with would culminate in a very fitting custom content system.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
I like the general idea though of user-created content, but you will have to separate these characters from Closed B.net (or the equivalent) which will thin out the internet population and detract from Blizzard's content.
My other post on this thread illustrates how the custom content should be separated from the normal content.
As for the detraction from Blizzard's content, that's pretty much inevitable, but if you consider the fact that the custom content will keep people interested in the game longer you'll be pulling players from a larger pool. Not to mention that probably less than 5% of the custom content will actually be worth playing, and of that 5% maybe 10% will take more than an hour to complete.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I seriously doubt Blizzard would give each adventure it's own battle.net realm, so online multiplayer would still mostly revolve around Blizzard's official Diablo 3 story. I imagine you'll have to resort to either LAN or TCP/IP connections for multiplayer on the custom content. It would be cool to give each custom adventure its own little realm, but that just seems impossible. I think it's more likely you'd just be able to download the content and play it outside of Battle.net.
The biggest concern I would have in user-generated copies is the cross-over of items and how one would play on these custom maps. I can't really see any mechanics as of now that would really add diversity or customization that the WC3 platform had....
If players were able to create and develop other areas of Sanctuary I think it would be really neat... I just would want it to be exclusive to that content. I wouldn't want people romping around in my Closed Net games with ridiculous gear that was tailored in the customized content.
The custom content system we're suggesting is very similar to Starcraft/Warcraft's map editors. Blizzard is very supportive of this kind of custom content creation, and I think the things this community is coming up with would culminate in a very fitting custom content system.
However the key difference is that both Starcraft and Warcraft more of instantaneous games, meaning there's no saved progression between maps. You play one, you lose, and next time you start from scratch again, just like everyone else. There's no time investment into actual bonuses from the game; time investment only increases your skill and enjoyment.
Diablo however, is a game which is based on linear progression and a needed balance along that path. That's why it can't be incoroprated into B.net, but it's also why Blizzard won't include a map-editor I don't think. The game structure is different, and making maps in D2 of equal value to that of WC3, you'd need more modding capabilites such as custom monsters and animations, custom sound files, custom classes, skills, items and drops. A "map editor" feature probably couldn't provide all that.
Quote from "Number1SuperGuy" »
As for the detraction from Blizzard's content, that's pretty much inevitable, but if you consider the fact that the custom content will keep people interested in the game longer you'll be pulling players from a larger pool. Not to mention that probably less than 5% of the custom content will actually be worth playing, and of that 5% maybe 10% will take more than an hour to complete.
That may actually be true.
Quote from "Number1SuperGuy" »
Another thing worth mentioning is that I seriously doubt Blizzard would give each adventure it's own battle.net realm, so online multiplayer would still mostly revolve around Blizzard's official Diablo 3 story. I imagine you'll have to resort to either LAN or TCP/IP connections for multiplayer on the custom content. It would be cool to give each custom adventure its own little realm, but that just seems impossible. I think it's more likely you'd just be able to download the content and play it outside of Battle.net.
Unfortunately, there is no LAN support in D3. So that's not gonna happen.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
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Diablo is a franchise that would benefit greatly from player generated content. What I think they should do is something that is a good mix between Warcraft 3's map editor/scripting tools and City of Heroes' recently released Architect feature.
The logistics are simple. You can spend countless man-hours developing content for your players (which you should still do, I expect a robust story driven Diablo this time around!), or (also and) you can spend countless man-hours developing the tools for players to develop content for themselves and others. And get headlines like this...
http://kotaku.com/5216590/city-of-heroes-players-create-more-content-than-devs-in-24-hours
For the sake of simplicity, let's just call this feature Custom Games, like in Warcraft 3. Separate from any ladders or other multiplayer gametypes.
Lets highlight some of the ideal features:
*For reference sake, when I use the term map, it can be assumed that this is refering to outdoor areas, or indoor dungeons.
- Includes a fully featured map editor complete with rich scripting tools and functions
- Player can fully customize monsters by choosing their name, stats, special attributes, and aesthetic by selecting from a range of pre-defined skins and colors.
- Player can edit the loot table of any customized monster, pulling from a list of pre-defined Diablo 3 weapons, armor, and items. To prevent abuse, each monster rarity type will have their own item cap. Each item, depending on it's quality and rarity, will have a scored number value. You may only include items in the monsters loot table until you have hit that value cap. The cap can not be edited, but the rarity of the monster can, consequently increasing the cap. You can only have a certain number of monster rarity types per map area. For instance, the player may not fill their map with 100 unique-rarity monsters.
- Players may import their own skins and models for monsters and npcs, allowing for truly unique denizens on their created maps.
- Players may fully customize npcs by choosing stats, special attributes, and appearance options. Npcs can be made into vendors in which case the player may edit their sellable items. As with monster customization, npcs have an item cap so they cannot be loaded with rare and unique items. Each item has a pre-defined cost based on the quality of the item and stat weights.
- Players may create their own weapons, armor and items using their own imported models and textures or using predefined models and textures. Similar to monster loot tables, weapons cannot be loaded with incredible stats. Each weapon type, depending on the rarity you assign it, is allowed only a set number of stats. Each stat has it's own "weight" which, when added to the weapon, works towards the stat weight cap. You cannot exceed the cap. The cap is defined by the rarity.
- Players may fully edit the environments allowing placement of Diablo 3 assets into their created map.
- Players can control many aspects of the environment and script them to trigger based on events or scenarios. Players can control the lighting of any object, as well as the overall map lightning. This allows for complete control over the atmosphere of the created map. Aiming for that survival-horror feel? Totally possible with the right lighting and level design.
- Players can script events using items, assets, npcs, monsters, areas, time elapsed, and much more.
- Players can create story arcs that branch to and from different player created maps. Let's just call this feature a Tome for now. A Tome consists of all of the player created maps in a given story arc. When players download the Tome they are downloading multiple maps, and when they play the game they are seamlessly loaded between the maps when they entered the user defined areas that allow them to transition to the next map.
I will expand on these ideas a little bit later, I'm short on time right now. You guys can also expand on these areas.
A few things to keep in mind. While we want to have as much freedom as possible with generated content, do not overlook the limits and caps that need to be set in order to prevent players from abusing the creation tools and just making worlds that drop nothing but set items and uniques. This is incredibly detrimental to the online diablo community. Akin to dupe hacking. We all know what that is like, and we all hate it.
Also, while this feature is incredibly ambitious and perhaps so much that it couldn't possibly be fit in Diablo 3 before release, keep in mind there are opportunities for expansions. And content patches. And also dreaming and wishful thinking.
Feel free to add to what i've put here.
Though I would prefer to see them patch this in so it doesn't hold up release!
It would be nice if they didn't limit what you could do in the tools allowing you to create a ton of 'mini' game like in wc3. If you make a map where tons of set items and such drop, then its no big deal, its just if its over the top it probably wont be a fun/popular module.
-Hunter S. Thompson
TED . LEAP . Woot . MF
Good point. I must have been out of the Diablo loop for longer than I thought.
-Hunter S. Thompson
TED . LEAP . Woot . MF
Yeah, I would imagine this feature only to be accessible to open bnet characters. To keep things nice and tidy and in Blizzard's control, server-side realm characters shouldn't be able to access custom content.
However, the option to copy your realm character for use with custom games (essentially copying your realm character to an open bnet character slot) is a good idea. Some people just don't play open bnet. To make it easier for them, so, you know, they don't have to grind up a new character to play some custom games.
The thing that excites me the most about this type of feature is what happened with Warcraft 3. DOTA aside, there were some truly unique and fun gameplay experiences that couldn't possibly be offered in the stand alone Warcraft 3 game. With scripting and creativity, some players were able to do some really incredible things.
Some custom games that come to mind are Dawn of the Dead survival horror games, the Final Fantasy rpg maps, and of course Angel Arena, or Hero Arena, or Ultimate Whatever Arena; it went through a few names. There are of course other great examples of creative and intelligent scripting.
I hope not, macro and addons provide an unfair advantage and it is rly rly annoying when updating them.
Maintaining a high standard of quality:
> There should be several minimum requirements before custom content can be published on battle.net. These would essentially weed out the super-amateurs and make sure people put some effort into their content before publishing it. People could still make and play their own unfinished adventures, but they couldn't publish them on battle.net unless the simple minimum requirements were met, for example:
--> Minimum map size to prevent 5 minute adventures.
--> Minimum enemy count to make sure the adventure isn't just in design stages.
--> Minimum doodad count to ensure an aesthetically pleasing adventure.
--> Minimum playtest time, something small like 1 hour just to make sure it isn't published with an impossibly tough first enemy or something.
Keep it separate:
> Custom content should be very much separated from Blizzards Diablo 3 universe. Here's how:
--> Custom content should be on neither open nor closed battle.net. It should have it's own separate "realm".
--> Each "adventure" should be able to contain as many levels as the creator wants.
--> To the content creator's discretion, the player should be able to create new characters that persist in the adventure, or be given previously created characters to play with
--> Characters from custom adventures will remain 100% unique to that adventure and can't be taken into a different adventure.
--> In the list of custom adventures there should be some indicator to let people know if an adventure has 3rd party content such as character models or textures. This should just make it easier for people to find Diablo-like adventures vs. totally different adventures.
--> Adventure creators should have the ability to update their adventures whenever they want, but the characters people have created in their adventures should persist no matter what kind of update they're making. In other words they'll have to make sure that any additions are in line with the rest of their adventure. If they want to take the adventure in an entirely different direction they'll have to start over.
If Blizzard did this I would buy Diablo 3, make my own full-fledged adventures, and buy 10 extra copies of the game and make all my friends play my adventures. How can Blizzard say "no" to that kind of promise!
What advantages?!?!?!?!? anyone can use the macros and addons anyone else does...and how is them being updated annoying>!?!?!
P.S.
Not a bad idea.
There is a snag though. Considering the amount of custom games players will cycle through, we're potentially looking at hundreds of character slots needed just for custom games.
And then there's open and closed bnet.
It's not impossible, but we'd have to start looking at a completely new character selection front-end for such an implementation. Like... a drop down list, or something lol.
Or it could be context sensitive. Like if you hover over or select a custom game, there could be a pop up that displays the characters you currently have saved for that particular custom game. Or something.
I like the general idea though of user-created content, but you will have to separate these characters from Closed B.net (or the equivalent) which will thin out the internet population and detract from Blizzard's content.
The custom content system we're suggesting is very similar to Starcraft/Warcraft's map editors. Blizzard is very supportive of this kind of custom content creation, and I think the things this community is coming up with would culminate in a very fitting custom content system.
My other post on this thread illustrates how the custom content should be separated from the normal content.
As for the detraction from Blizzard's content, that's pretty much inevitable, but if you consider the fact that the custom content will keep people interested in the game longer you'll be pulling players from a larger pool. Not to mention that probably less than 5% of the custom content will actually be worth playing, and of that 5% maybe 10% will take more than an hour to complete.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I seriously doubt Blizzard would give each adventure it's own battle.net realm, so online multiplayer would still mostly revolve around Blizzard's official Diablo 3 story. I imagine you'll have to resort to either LAN or TCP/IP connections for multiplayer on the custom content. It would be cool to give each custom adventure its own little realm, but that just seems impossible. I think it's more likely you'd just be able to download the content and play it outside of Battle.net.
If players were able to create and develop other areas of Sanctuary I think it would be really neat... I just would want it to be exclusive to that content. I wouldn't want people romping around in my Closed Net games with ridiculous gear that was tailored in the customized content.
Diablo however, is a game which is based on linear progression and a needed balance along that path. That's why it can't be incoroprated into B.net, but it's also why Blizzard won't include a map-editor I don't think. The game structure is different, and making maps in D2 of equal value to that of WC3, you'd need more modding capabilites such as custom monsters and animations, custom sound files, custom classes, skills, items and drops. A "map editor" feature probably couldn't provide all that.
That may actually be true.
Unfortunately, there is no LAN support in D3. So that's not gonna happen.