Wizard is no longer the Glass Cannon!

  • #121
    Quote from bluestorm355

    Quote from Antirepublican

    I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
    50 Hatred for cluster arrow
    60 Arcane power for Meteor

    Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
    4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.




    No. If a DH get ressource generation from his gear and skills, the wizard can get it too.

    Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.


    The wizard does not work the same way as the demon hunter. The wizard resource generation mechanic does not work with abilities. The AP just regenerate itself really fast. You (normally) don't use a signature spell to gain arcane power, you use it because you need something to do while your arcane power regenerate. The demon hunter, on the other hand, is FORCED to use his hatred generators. Technically a wizard with good AP regen gear could rune some abilities to cost less AP, and do not use signature spells at all.

    A DH can match a wizards base regen with some gear. Yes, the wizard could take the lead again with +AP on Crit gear though.

    A DH can easily make a build without a generator....its much harder to pull that off, signatureless, for a wizard. That alone, kind of tells you who gets to use their spenders more frequently....

    However, I favor a build with a generator, because they are actually quite good on a DH.

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  • #122
    Ok I just found another skill that makes a great comparison.

    http://d3db.com/tool...or/demon-hunter

    Puncturing Arrow is obviously better than any Wizard skill in single target.

    But look at Bola Shot (imminent Doom) = 182% on initial target with 154% in 7 yard area. That is damn near comparable to say Arcane orb at 175% in 10 yard area.

    So yah, the DH has single target and AoE generators on par with the wizards spenders, and you guys still think you are the glass cannon? No, not even close.

    I guess you could argue that she does specialize in AoE, but only in the same way you can say a bad mechanic specializes in automobile repair. Its all they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are very good at it.
    Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
    "Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
  • #123
    Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?
  • #124
    They are probably just nerfing some wizard abilities that are availible to you by lv 13, most likely because Wizards are currently scaling too well in the end-game enviroment. It's no big deal.

    But even if you take that into consideration, it doesnt matter. This is a PvE game without large scale co-op, so it's completely pointless to cry about your class doing a little less damage then the next guy. It just doesnt matter. If anything, you will be compared to other players playing the same class.
    Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
  • #125
    Quote from Mysticjbyrd


    A DH can match a wizards base regen with some gear. Yes, the wizard could take the lead again with +AP on Crit gear though.

    A DH can easily make a build without a generator....its much harder to pull that off, signatureless, for a wizard. That alone, kind of tells you who gets to use their spenders more frequently....

    However, I favor a build with a generator, because they are actually quite good on a DH.



    The wizard will probably also have resource generation gear. A wizard with ap regen gear will be able to cast alot more high cost spells than a demon hunter with resource regen gear.

    Also, it's not that hard to make a signatureless build for a wizard, the only problem is that you can't do it in beta because of level restriction.

    Puncturing Arrow is obviously better than any Wizard skill in single target.


    Magic missile with seeker= 121% damage, Ray of frost does 215% on a single target, with the possibility of costing less than your AP regen rate. Puncturing arrow does 115% damage with 50% chance to pierce. Better than any wizard skill?
  • #126
    Quote from Glitterpony

    there's a lot of things to consider other than just raw dps.. mobility, survivability, benefits of ranged vs. melee during encounters, resource spending and regeneration, the ability to lay down multiple skills at once....

    So who would you say has better survivability? Wizard or DH? Because I would argue that the DH has slightly worse survivability. And when you couple low(er) survivability with high(er) damage, you get....the glass cannon.

    Quote from Ayr

    Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?

    Blizzard people said it many times.

    And I have to say this again, because apparently some people still don't get it: nobody's saying that the Wizard sucks. The only issue here is that he was presented as a true glass cannon: insane damage (should be the highest of all classes) coupled with (relatively) low survivability. And he's just not it, now.
  • #127
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Glitterpony

    there's a lot of things to consider other than just raw dps.. mobility, survivability, benefits of ranged vs. melee during encounters, resource spending and regeneration, the ability to lay down multiple skills at once....

    So who would you say has better survivability? Wizard or DH? Because I would argue that the DH has slightly worse survivability. And when you couple low(er) survivability with high(er) damage, you get....the glass cannon.

    Quote from Ayr

    Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?

    Blizzard people said it many times.

    And I have to say this again, because apparently some people still don't get it: nobody's saying that the Wizard sucks. The only issue here is that he was presented as a true glass cannon: insane damage (should be the highest of all classes) coupled with (relatively) low survivability. And he's just not it, now.


    Maybe the glass cannon aspect will be more obvious with higher level gear. Maybe the average demon hunter gear will give more armor bonus while the average wizard gear will have more dps and less defense. We just don't know.
  • #128
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Ayr

    Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?

    Blizzard people said it many times.


    Actually, I believe they said they want to have multiple viable builds for each class. One of those being, the melee wizard.... and they might actually pull it off if you look at some of the runes for the wizard. You aren't forced to make a glass cannon wizard and that's a great thing! It's incredibly boring to have a class pigeon-holed into a single spec/specialization.

    You could make a glass cannon wizard though! If you forgo all of the defensive skills, you could pile on the skill enhancers and make a glass cannon. Sounds like a great system to me.
  • #129
    Quote from bluestorm355

    Maybe the glass cannon aspect will be more obvious with higher level gear. Maybe the average demon hunter gear will give more armor bonus while the average wizard gear will have more dps and less defense. We just don't know.

    Maybe, who knows. As far as DH gear giving more armour, I doubt it, since every class (I believe) gets the same armour from items (some classes have armour enhancing passives, but I don't think the DH is one of them).

    Quote from Ruppgu

    You could make a glass cannon wizard though! If you forgo all of the defensive skills, you could pile on the skill enhancers and make a glass cannon. Sounds like a great system to me.

    Yeah, and you could also make a glass cannon DH. Where does that leave us? I'll tell you: it leaves us saying that the Wizard is no longer the glass cannon.
  • #130
    When I made my first post I guess I hadn't fully considered the topic title.

    In that respec I would say yes, Demon Hunter does "appear" to be more of a glass cannon than the wizard in the sense they have less defensive/tanky abilities than the wizard and have some skills that do more damage.

    What boggles my mind is why people are so upset about this. It's not like the wizard is lacking damage.

    The wizard can pull off all kinds of builds and can do both single target and aoe very well. They can also be built extremely defensive/control oriented or a combination of any of these.

    Would you really rather have a class with less defensive/tanky capability that does a little more damage than the demon hunter? I'll bet dollars to donuts that the wizard class will be stronger than the demon hunter in the higher difficulties where this stuff actually matters. I'm not saying the demon hunter won't be a solid performer, but I believe the wizard will have an easier time of it.

    I know what a glass cannon is all to well. I played CoH back in the day as a fire/em blaster with no mez protection or any kind of additional defense/damage mitigation and damage alone is not enough when you go up against anything moderately difficult or get put in situations where you will be surrounded and hit, or hit from range even.

    I could care less if the demon hunter has more abilities "overall" than the wizard that do higher damage because the wizard still does plenty of damage and imo has the ultimate who does the mostest damage in archon form.

    Given the choice of balanced class with tools to handle any scenario and good damage vs crazy damage with little survivability I'll take the former. You're asking for the latter and trust me glass cannon implies high damage/low survivability which SUCKS against anything that presents a real challenge.

    I wouldn't even really call the demon hunter a glass cannon because it can be built extremely mobile and has tools to completely drop aggro for short periods of time AND it has slows etc. Basically it does have utility and defensive capabilities so I don't feel it can be classified under the term glass cannon.
  • #131
    ROFL OP. Wizard is probably the strongest class against the Skeleton King next to a warrior. Arcane orb + Obliteration rune and use the electricity for 3x 110% damage i think it is? SK will drop quickly.
  • #132
    boohoo I want to play wizard AND I want it to be THE glass canon.

    boohoo me so sad.

    boohoo Blizzard is mean and I won't buy the game if it stays like that.

    oh, and I must add (in case I'm attacked on this topic for whatever reason) that I'm VERY grown up and I'm not capricious.
  • #133
    Quote from Gryzorz

    boohoo I want to play wizard AND I want it to be THE glass canon.

    boohoo me so sad.

    boohoo Blizzard is mean and I won't buy the game if it stays like that.

    oh, and I must add (in case I'm attacked on this topic for whatever reason) that I'm VERY grown up and I'm not capricious.

    Could've fooled me.
  • #134
    Quote from RaidenFreeman

    I think such things are gonna get balanced at release. Blizzard hasn't disappointed me yet in this domain.


    you clearly didn't play a priest for the first 6 months of cataclysm... a blunder bad enough that left the class so abysmal that hydra, arguably the best disc priest in the world straight up refused to play the game, and WoW was removed from MLG.
  • #135
    This will pass, changes will be made. Some other class will be nerfed and every one will rush to a different class. It's just how games work lol. I'm sticking to my wizard.
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  • #136
    I totally agree that DH is the new glass cannon. Great evasive skills with soft CC and no durability buffs, vs wizard's multiple buffs, hard CC and poor mobility. And all of wizard's flashy effects can't match a very simple looking Impale for single target damage.

    I'm not convinced that DH has the better AoE capabilities though, that can be a tricky thing to calculate, and needs a more sophisticated approach than what's been done here so far.

    Quote from Mysticjbyrd

    But look at Bola Shot (imminent Doom) = 182% on initial target with 154% in 7 yard area. That is damn near comparable to say Arcane orb at 175% in 10 yard area.

    So yah, the DH has single target and AoE generators on par with the wizards spenders


    I mean, look at that, that's just embarrassing.
  • #137
    Beta patch 16, Wizard. 53 dps compared to my mates Barbarian's 52 dps, we kill SK in about the same time. He might be 1-4 seconds faster.
    "Those born with the dawn, do not lose sight of it!"
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  • #138
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#aZXVcm!YXU!abaZYa

    Glass Cannon?
    Jellyfish are the one and only true Wizards
  • #139
    Yes, yes, we all know that he can be a glass cannon. He's just not the glass cannon. The DH is as much of a glass cannon as he is, maybe even more.
  • #140
    I see all these arguments back and forth about class damage abilities and AoEs. etc... and it seems everyone disregards potential circumstances and behaviors of the spells and simply looks at raw damage numbers.

    People need to remember how they really act within the game. You have to consider stuff like...

    * missile speed :: Arcane Orb travels slower than others like Bola Shot, requiring more timing and targeting ability by the player
    * missile collision :: Arcane Orb is a direct path and explodes at first collision, whereas numerous other spells are targeted or "lob" style
    * effective Area damage :: combined with the collision notes above, the effective radius of Arcane Orb could be inferior to targeted/lob spells
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