They are probably just nerfing some wizard abilities that are availible to you by lv 13, most likely because Wizards are currently scaling too well in the end-game enviroment. It's no big deal.
But even if you take that into consideration, it doesnt matter. This is a PvE game without large scale co-op, so it's completely pointless to cry about your class doing a little less damage then the next guy. It just doesnt matter. If anything, you will be compared to other players playing the same class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
A DH can match a wizards base regen with some gear. Yes, the wizard could take the lead again with +AP on Crit gear though.
A DH can easily make a build without a generator....its much harder to pull that off, signatureless, for a wizard. That alone, kind of tells you who gets to use their spenders more frequently....
However, I favor a build with a generator, because they are actually quite good on a DH.
The wizard will probably also have resource generation gear. A wizard with ap regen gear will be able to cast alot more high cost spells than a demon hunter with resource regen gear.
Also, it's not that hard to make a signatureless build for a wizard, the only problem is that you can't do it in beta because of level restriction.
Puncturing Arrow is obviously better than any Wizard skill in single target.
Magic missile with seeker= 121% damage, Ray of frost does 215% on a single target, with the possibility of costing less than your AP regen rate. Puncturing arrow does 115% damage with 50% chance to pierce. Better than any wizard skill?
there's a lot of things to consider other than just raw dps.. mobility, survivability, benefits of ranged vs. melee during encounters, resource spending and regeneration, the ability to lay down multiple skills at once....
So who would you say has better survivability? Wizard or DH? Because I would argue that the DH has slightly worse survivability. And when you couple low(er) survivability with high(er) damage, you get....the glass cannon.
Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?
Blizzard people said it many times.
And I have to say this again, because apparently some people still don't get it: nobody's saying that the Wizard sucks. The only issue here is that he was presented as a true glass cannon: insane damage (should be the highest of all classes) coupled with (relatively) low survivability. And he's just not it, now.
Maybe the glass cannon aspect will be more obvious with higher level gear. Maybe the average demon hunter gear will give more armor bonus while the average wizard gear will have more dps and less defense. We just don't know.
Where does it says it would be a glass canon btw ?
Blizzard people said it many times.
Actually, I believe they said they want to have multiple viable builds for each class. One of those being, the melee wizard.... and they might actually pull it off if you look at some of the runes for the wizard. You aren't forced to make a glass cannon wizard and that's a great thing! It's incredibly boring to have a class pigeon-holed into a single spec/specialization.
You could make a glass cannon wizard though! If you forgo all of the defensive skills, you could pile on the skill enhancers and make a glass cannon. Sounds like a great system to me.
When I made my first post I guess I hadn't fully considered the topic title.
In that respec I would say yes, Demon Hunter does "appear" to be more of a glass cannon than the wizard in the sense they have less defensive/tanky abilities than the wizard and have some skills that do more damage.
What boggles my mind is why people are so upset about this. It's not like the wizard is lacking damage.
The wizard can pull off all kinds of builds and can do both single target and aoe very well. They can also be built extremely defensive/control oriented or a combination of any of these.
Would you really rather have a class with less defensive/tanky capability that does a little more damage than the demon hunter? I'll bet dollars to donuts that the wizard class will be stronger than the demon hunter in the higher difficulties where this stuff actually matters. I'm not saying the demon hunter won't be a solid performer, but I believe the wizard will have an easier time of it.
I know what a glass cannon is all to well. I played CoH back in the day as a fire/em blaster with no mez protection or any kind of additional defense/damage mitigation and damage alone is not enough when you go up against anything moderately difficult or get put in situations where you will be surrounded and hit, or hit from range even.
I could care less if the demon hunter has more abilities "overall" than the wizard that do higher damage because the wizard still does plenty of damage and imo has the ultimate who does the mostest damage in archon form.
Given the choice of balanced class with tools to handle any scenario and good damage vs crazy damage with little survivability I'll take the former. You're asking for the latter and trust me glass cannon implies high damage/low survivability which SUCKS against anything that presents a real challenge.
I wouldn't even really call the demon hunter a glass cannon because it can be built extremely mobile and has tools to completely drop aggro for short periods of time AND it has slows etc. Basically it does have utility and defensive capabilities so I don't feel it can be classified under the term glass cannon.
ROFL OP. Wizard is probably the strongest class against the Skeleton King next to a warrior. Arcane orb + Obliteration rune and use the electricity for 3x 110% damage i think it is? SK will drop quickly.
I think such things are gonna get balanced at release. Blizzard hasn't disappointed me yet in this domain.
you clearly didn't play a priest for the first 6 months of cataclysm... a blunder bad enough that left the class so abysmal that hydra, arguably the best disc priest in the world straight up refused to play the game, and WoW was removed from MLG.
This will pass, changes will be made. Some other class will be nerfed and every one will rush to a different class. It's just how games work lol. I'm sticking to my wizard.
I totally agree that DH is the new glass cannon. Great evasive skills with soft CC and no durability buffs, vs wizard's multiple buffs, hard CC and poor mobility. And all of wizard's flashy effects can't match a very simple looking Impale for single target damage.
I'm not convinced that DH has the better AoE capabilities though, that can be a tricky thing to calculate, and needs a more sophisticated approach than what's been done here so far.
But look at Bola Shot (imminent Doom) = 182% on initial target with 154% in 7 yard area. That is damn near comparable to say Arcane orb at 175% in 10 yard area.
So yah, the DH has single target and AoE generators on par with the wizards spenders
I see all these arguments back and forth about class damage abilities and AoEs. etc... and it seems everyone disregards potential circumstances and behaviors of the spells and simply looks at raw damage numbers.
People need to remember how they really act within the game. You have to consider stuff like...
* missile speed :: Arcane Orb travels slower than others like Bola Shot, requiring more timing and targeting ability by the player
* missile collision :: Arcane Orb is a direct path and explodes at first collision, whereas numerous other spells are targeted or "lob" style
* effective Area damage :: combined with the collision notes above, the effective radius of Arcane Orb could be inferior to targeted/lob spells
Sure outliers are possible, we can merely only calculate the average, but why would you only be interested in outliers?
Maybe, you should actually read some more of the thread, and not the lol "this" comments.
because the 'outliers' aren't truly outliers in proportion in a action game? I hate having to keep mentioning WoW, but even in that game where outliers are more like outliers, theorycrafters have always mentioned how they have to see how certain datamined set bonuses and proc effects [that aren't the generic calculable 'x' stat for 'y' second on a 'z' second cooldown] play out in actual gameplay to measure it's true value. and there's no way that shit in diablo will be more predictable[thus calculable] than in WoW.
I'm not trying to devalue theorycrafting itself. I did my own share and found alot of help in EJ. it's just that serious theorycrafters tend to lean too heavily on their precious numbers and take them for indisputable facts, which is what I was trying to point out.
Where in anything that Blizzard released did they say that the wizard class would be a glass cannon?
I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?
If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.
In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.
I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.
Where in anything that Blizzard released did they say that the wizard class would be a glass cannon?
I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?
If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.
In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.
I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.
But even if you take that into consideration, it doesnt matter. This is a PvE game without large scale co-op, so it's completely pointless to cry about your class doing a little less damage then the next guy. It just doesnt matter. If anything, you will be compared to other players playing the same class.
The wizard will probably also have resource generation gear. A wizard with ap regen gear will be able to cast alot more high cost spells than a demon hunter with resource regen gear.
Also, it's not that hard to make a signatureless build for a wizard, the only problem is that you can't do it in beta because of level restriction.
Magic missile with seeker= 121% damage, Ray of frost does 215% on a single target, with the possibility of costing less than your AP regen rate. Puncturing arrow does 115% damage with 50% chance to pierce. Better than any wizard skill?
Maybe the glass cannon aspect will be more obvious with higher level gear. Maybe the average demon hunter gear will give more armor bonus while the average wizard gear will have more dps and less defense. We just don't know.
Actually, I believe they said they want to have multiple viable builds for each class. One of those being, the melee wizard.... and they might actually pull it off if you look at some of the runes for the wizard. You aren't forced to make a glass cannon wizard and that's a great thing! It's incredibly boring to have a class pigeon-holed into a single spec/specialization.
You could make a glass cannon wizard though! If you forgo all of the defensive skills, you could pile on the skill enhancers and make a glass cannon. Sounds like a great system to me.
In that respec I would say yes, Demon Hunter does "appear" to be more of a glass cannon than the wizard in the sense they have less defensive/tanky abilities than the wizard and have some skills that do more damage.
What boggles my mind is why people are so upset about this. It's not like the wizard is lacking damage.
The wizard can pull off all kinds of builds and can do both single target and aoe very well. They can also be built extremely defensive/control oriented or a combination of any of these.
Would you really rather have a class with less defensive/tanky capability that does a little more damage than the demon hunter? I'll bet dollars to donuts that the wizard class will be stronger than the demon hunter in the higher difficulties where this stuff actually matters. I'm not saying the demon hunter won't be a solid performer, but I believe the wizard will have an easier time of it.
I know what a glass cannon is all to well. I played CoH back in the day as a fire/em blaster with no mez protection or any kind of additional defense/damage mitigation and damage alone is not enough when you go up against anything moderately difficult or get put in situations where you will be surrounded and hit, or hit from range even.
I could care less if the demon hunter has more abilities "overall" than the wizard that do higher damage because the wizard still does plenty of damage and imo has the ultimate who does the mostest damage in archon form.
Given the choice of balanced class with tools to handle any scenario and good damage vs crazy damage with little survivability I'll take the former. You're asking for the latter and trust me glass cannon implies high damage/low survivability which SUCKS against anything that presents a real challenge.
I wouldn't even really call the demon hunter a glass cannon because it can be built extremely mobile and has tools to completely drop aggro for short periods of time AND it has slows etc. Basically it does have utility and defensive capabilities so I don't feel it can be classified under the term glass cannon.
you clearly didn't play a priest for the first 6 months of cataclysm... a blunder bad enough that left the class so abysmal that hydra, arguably the best disc priest in the world straight up refused to play the game, and WoW was removed from MLG.
I'm not convinced that DH has the better AoE capabilities though, that can be a tricky thing to calculate, and needs a more sophisticated approach than what's been done here so far.
I mean, look at that, that's just embarrassing.
Glass Cannon?
People need to remember how they really act within the game. You have to consider stuff like...
* missile speed :: Arcane Orb travels slower than others like Bola Shot, requiring more timing and targeting ability by the player
* missile collision :: Arcane Orb is a direct path and explodes at first collision, whereas numerous other spells are targeted or "lob" style
* effective Area damage :: combined with the collision notes above, the effective radius of Arcane Orb could be inferior to targeted/lob spells
I guess when you compare the game to how D2 use to be (and other RPG games), the wizard does seem to be lacking that traditional face melting power.
because the 'outliers' aren't truly outliers in proportion in a action game? I hate having to keep mentioning WoW, but even in that game where outliers are more like outliers, theorycrafters have always mentioned how they have to see how certain datamined set bonuses and proc effects [that aren't the generic calculable 'x' stat for 'y' second on a 'z' second cooldown] play out in actual gameplay to measure it's true value. and there's no way that shit in diablo will be more predictable[thus calculable] than in WoW.
I'm not trying to devalue theorycrafting itself. I did my own share and found alot of help in EJ. it's just that serious theorycrafters tend to lean too heavily on their precious numbers and take them for indisputable facts, which is what I was trying to point out.
I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?
If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.
In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.
I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.
Glass Cannon is being used by the OP as a class concept. You referred to the passive also called Glass Cannon. They have no relation whatsoever.