With an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin on the argument regarding whether DHs have a good amount of EFFECTIVE dps or not when compared to other classes.
I have been playing around I tried some crazy !@#$ these 2 set ups, so far, seems to be the most optimal but I'm still working out the kinks and am open to suggestions but the point remains. DHs don't have enough E-DPS. I could always be more optimal gear-wise (but at that point who cares equal geared class will still out dps DHs)
So what you're saying is that we should be happy we can run low MP's more effectively than... Barbs? Cause that's basically the only class that can't run low MP's as effectively as DH's, however, they can probably do MP5 as effectively as we do MP1-2.
So if that's your logic, then you believe its right for the Demon Hunter to be a class which can't benefit as other classes do to ALL of the new game content. Farming keys on higher MP's so that it can actually drop once in a while, uber bosses (Most DH's arent invited to parties because of the eDPS problem they have), and basically all the new things Blizzard is introducing with the next patch that modifies gameplay experience, like the % boost on Exp and Magic find which is obviously more effective on higher MP's.
That's just like saying its fair that a class exists in a game just to get to lvl 20 when all other classes get to level 100.
Also, I think this game has been on the market long enough for people to still think paper DPS is important, it's not, and the DH is the perfect example, you can have 250k DPS and a Monk, Barb, or any other class basically with half of that will do things faster and more effectively than you, just because your class was made to suck and we just got to "accept" it. Paper DPS only matters if you have the skills to back it up, otherwise its just a nice big number on a sheet that does nothing for you. DPS might be a good reference on other classes, but that's only because their skills do the damage needed for it to be relevant, Id rather have 150k DPS and a 800%+ skill like the Monks Bell for example, than have a huge amount of DPS on paper but a skill that does 1/4 of the damage their's does, or 1/2 of the damage but 3 times the resources.
I'm not saying the other classes are OP, balance exists in this game, it just doesnt include the DH, and no, that's not right, and not one person that likes the DH class should just accept things when people know there's a problem, if you are gonna have 5 classes and one of them limited to low MP's then why have it at all? Blizzarrd is aiming to make the game funner for everyone, aiming to encourage people to play higher MP's, but what they need to do first is adapt this class for higher MP's before releasing content which doesn't affect us, or in fact, just drags us farther from where we should be, along with the other classes being able to do what they do, people that roll a DH dont pay less for the game, so why limit them to half of its content?
Good topic and my DH is indeed not feeling much fun lately as well... but I'll have to move this to the DH forums, where it belongs.
True,
I have had so many friends quit their DHs to go and roll Barbs or CM wizards. I wish blizzard would do something about this to fix this dying class. I have been doing more testing and I also found that my 120m Barb can clear KD2 almost twice as fast as this top 30 dps DH -- If blizzard does not see this as a problem then the DH class is screwed.
I will post a video of my findings when I get some time to make one!
Thanks for the support so far guys, lets get this issue addressed by Blizzard.
-- Here is a thread I made on bnet (1st one got closed by Blizzard for an unknown reason):
Demon hunters are part of the girl classes of diablo 3. On paper there is nothing in this game that can theoretically keep up with a demon hunters damage, and honestly they can't, as long as me monster power is low enough.
Its general perception that "a DH can't do mp10" even tho proHacker has proven this to be false on multiple occasions, but it takes a very specific kind of gear and skill combination which will get easily trumped by barbs, monks and wizards. Its not because you have too little damage but because the fundamental structure of the class favors lower MP running.
Accept what your class does best or rethink your options.
Your whole point is invalid because Blizzard with recent patchs tries to give incentive to play at highers monster powers, DE drops for example are a clear proof of that. A well deisgned game would have classes that play different, but all of them should shine with the right gear on the top difficulties.
Also the resource system of DH put them behind other classes who can just run around facerolling and spamming every skill like no tomorrow, so that need an adjust too IMHO OR, if you dont like DHs getting buffed nerf all the other "OP" classes like barb with the perma cc inmunity or monks retarded dmg because right now the difference its too big.
The problem isnt in the design of the class, the problem is as simply as the current damage of the skills. Making a DH on par with the other classes isn't as hard as you think, you don't need to redesign anything, you just need to tweak the skills damage and test it till our eDPS reflects our paper DPS, like it does on every other class. The monk is where it is because of the change on its skills, no one needed to rewrite the class, the bell jumped from 300 to 800% and that put them back on the map, without mentioning all of the other buffs they got. Again, I'm not saying he is OP, but he is balanced with the other classes now, while we are not. A buff on our skills for example would help us greatly because we would kill things at the same rate that other classes, which has nothing wrong to it. In fact, DH's are supposed to be a DPS class, but currently they have the worst eDPS.
And theres no issue with survivability either, no one is complaining about that, they just believe that a DH's eDPS sucks for a main DPS class, and that our skills right now dont do the required damage to compete with other classes on higher MPs. We don't need simplicity, we need more damage, the class would stay the same, play the same, just do more DPS and therefore kill things faster. I repeat, I don't find it that complicated, we dont need new tools and functions, just the a buff on our damage skills that would place us on the level that other classes are right now.
As you can probably see from the video. Part of making any Class' E-DPS higher is by including skills that do simultaneous DPS while maintaining good enough mitigation to be able to hold your ground in most scenarios.In order to achieve this I used Rain Of Vengeance which is a single cast and I can just let it be and it will do its job, putting down spike traps and in between spike traps stacking Bola shots. The reason other Classes have much higher E-DPS is because:
1) Their Buffs are much better -- I was running Archery, Cull The Weak (Cold Soj+ RoV + Caltrops) , Custom Engineering but those still don't match Tokio and I have discussed this extensively and we have concluded that our buffs are a big part of our problems, our Steady Aim is pretty useless in most situations and usually we lose E-DPS trying to keep ourselves at a distance from monsters so that the buff is active.
2) The skills that other classes have either work off of breakpoints in attack speed and crit chance or just work together very well to do very effective simultaneous DPS thereby boosting their E-DPS (i.e. Sweeping Wind).
3) Because our E-DPS is much lower our survivability is also much lower than say, Tokio's, because he does so much damage extremely fast that 3% life steal is overkill for him and he does not have the 35% mitigation that Gloom gives us DHs. Tokio and I were running at the same level of base EHP, yet even I with perma gloom was unable to coast through as he did (at least in the surviving sense). Point being that, I was running MUCH higher mitigation (because of Gloom of course) than Tokio and MUCH higher life steal% yet HE is able to survive through a lot more because of his huge amount of E-DPS.
With the amount of HP monsters have in high MP levels it's literally impossible to kite. Even if our sheet damage reflected our eDPS we would probably be hitting 800-1200k on our best attacks or maybe 1300k for manticore users, however, mobs in MP10 have a lot more HP than that. (Sure you could kite, but it would take minutes and it's not even fun anymore cause most of the times you end up hitting the portal from where you first arrived to the map).
If you're talking about unfair, we already take 30% more damage than you guys do, some guys on MP10 are unkiteable (most people on high monster powers like myself drop kiting because its a waste of time), and youll also have us deal less damage than you? Being ranged in a game where mobs have a huge amount of hitpoints and the map size might be limited most of the time isnt much of a advantage in my opinion, most DH's tank because that's the way we have to do things on higher monster powers.
Unfair is having all other classes wipe through all the game content while leaving us to enjoy half of it, not making a character who is ranged deal the same damage as melee characters do, I can hit 700k criticals with a 15M witch doctor without focusing solemnly on DPS and getting resists and hp too and wipe MP7-8, can pretty much live forever on MP10 on wiz, and they both have skills that make them get away from nasty situations (Spirit walk, teleport, etc...), but thats okay, I mean, only if you let the DH do that is it unfair.
There is no way to play MP5 as efficiently as other classes as a DH, unless your gear is in the billions. And I find your suggestion humurous, telling us to use traps to 3 shot an elite @ MP5 when that's what decent geared barbs and monks are doing on MP8.
Also, you may not know this, but with the changes last patch added, MP10 is by far the best MP to farm for loot and exp. This is only going to get more evident next patch with NV buffs being multiplicative and with extra exp (also multiplicative) as well extra mf and gf past cap per party member meaning 5 stack MP10 in a party will be the best exp and best loot.
The only reason DHs never openly revolted against being innefective on higher MPs was because they were only less effective at key farming and ubers (however, there have been threads about how DHs eficiency is bad on high MPs for many months now, especially on oficial forums). This is something more in line with what you're trying to say. But now that MP0-1 is no longer the most efficient way to farm loot and exp, wich is this game's primary goal, there simply is no way to ignore how bad DHs now have it.
Buff DHs for great justice.
(EDIT)
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP USING LEGACY NAT AS AN EXCUSE. IT'S A BROKEN SET THAT NO LONGER DROPS, EVEN IF IT WAS THE ABSOLUTE PANACEA, WICH IT ISN'T FOR ANTYHING BUT LOW MP SPEED FARMING OR TO RELEASE A SKILL AND/OR A PASSIVE SLOT FOR NO DPS GAINS, THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH LEGACY NATS FOR EVERY DH OUT THERE.
"Playing mp5 as efficiently as a geared demon hunter does will result in a much greater amount of demonic essences and arguably a similar amount of legendaries with item levels worth identifying. "
its too bad but after they changed/fixed mp10 its not anymore.
Also, legacy nats is nothing that anybody has/could get and with it you will STILL be slower at mp5 then a tornado and even then a hota barb, not to mention an equally geared tempest rush monk that can use fleet footed and still kill packs faster then you as a dh (if the packs wouldnt move at all and stack up nicely in front of you it would, could, be maybe as fast but they dont do it^^).
I swap my gear from monk to dh a lot and i really tried all the builds now and monk is faster, easier, has more options in builds and its less frustrating.
DH is a tiny bit cooler and i enjoy playing calamity dh so i play him sometimes until i sold the calamity overpriced or blizz fixes some stuff. Whatever comes first^^
Again with the pissing contest.. It doesn't matter if you do something on MP5 and another class is forced to a higher monster power because of the functionality if the end result is the same.
What the patch is changing is monster density in acts and letting Nephalem valor stacks have new multiplicative properties in MULTIPLAYER, MP10 still has the same ups and downs it always has. This however is a discussion about the demon hunter class so don't start confusing people or yourself for that matter by including the shitstorm that forcing everyone to play multiplayer brings.
This whole scam about being able to farm the largest amount of xp and getting the largest amount of loot at the same time has blown up because most players havn't taken the time to analyze it because it seems like this miracle. What these runs lack is the biggest factor in keeping an interest towards the game, significant character progression. Getting to P100 in the process of losing between 4000 and 5000 demonic essences and closer to a 500 million in gold is not worth it. If you think your motivation is low now, just wait until you hit P100 and the only reason you play is because you want to. We can all agree that item level makes a huge difference between the potential quality of the item, and different monsters have a different chance to drop these high level items. What this MP10 trash farming results in is the MOST loot, not the best loot.
Fury is not a naturally generating resource, it actually degenerates after a short time which is the reason why main nukes like Hota require a dousin skills that directly support it while you naturally have to gear towards it. Both monks and barbs basically work this way and you always have to pick a speciality to focus on while a demon hunter will do great all around because of the numerous tools it has that arn't really connected to each other as much as they are connected to the players preferences.
I don't understand what the huge problem is that MP10 is complicated for a class that is designed for lower tiers which comes with great benefits mp10 people completely miss out on. I would even go as far as to argue that the demon hunter is the best class for players who understand how silly it is to think highly of either sheet dps or max monster powers, accept what they're good at and play in a fashion that will keep them interested and progressive for more than a month.
I've been holding back from reading all of your posts but after reading this one and also noticing that you said "dousin"
I do know what you want, you want to play mp10 no matter what the consequences. No reasoning, no thought process, you just WANT.
Very stimulating conversation with colorful comebacks so far guys.
Nah, lets get this straight. I don't want to play for the fact i'm playing MP10. I can play MP10 if I want to, take a lot more time than the other classes, but still be able to clear it.
What I want, and this I do want, is to be able for DH's in general to do ubers on high MP's, solo high MP's, and do them effectively, like every SINGLE class in the game does. You say we are better on lower MP's than other classes, that's frankly not true, let me explain you why. DH's start gearing, and once they have decent DPS and stuff they start playing higher MP's, the reason why DH's can handle MP5 better than say a Barbarian that handles MP5, is because he wasted twice the money that the Barbarian did JUST to be able to play MP5. So in MP5 maybe sheet dps matters, so the Barbarian has half the DPS the DH has, and well, also got it for half, so naturally the DH will do better. But once the Barbarian gears himself up, boom, hes on MP8 while the DH is still on MP5, even if he should be geared enough with his dps and hp to do mp8, have you ever seen a Monk or a Barbarian with end-game gear do low MP's? They can run through it just as we do, and even faster... see where I'm going?
You want us to be satisfied by the fact that our effectiveness will always be lower MP's, well of course its always going to be lower MP's, cause most of the DH's out there cant do higher, HP on mobs scales so much its just stupid to try, so that means we wont be able to do high MP ubers unless we find people we know, cause in a public game the guys will say, "no, youre a DH, we need efficiency, so you cant come. but HEY, remember, go do MP5 cause youll rock at it."
That doesn't make sense, and the fact you think the class was designed to stay at lower MP's amuses me really. Why would blizzard focus the last 3 months of its work on content that aims mostly towards 4 classes and not include the 5th? Its done, its a problem, the class has a problem, and it needs to be fixed, you have a different point of view and Im cool with that, but not only DH's know about this, ive seen monks, barbarians, witch doctors, wizards, basically everyone saying DH cant compete with them because it simply sucks.
I want balance, I want to be able to enjoy the WHOLE game, and not limit myself to lower MPs just cause the class I chose and like is the only one who doesnt pack enough damage to join the other classes on higher MPs, its not fun wasting countless gold on gear to see someone do half the work and have more benefits than we do, it has to be fixed, or the class will die.
Playing a barb or monk forces you into melee range of everything. You could literally have 1 billion DPS but without enough HP and Resistance you couldn't down anything. This is something a demon hunter never has to come to terms with especially with the passive 15% life steal buff. Granting a fast moving smoke screening ranged class the ability to pack the same punch as melees would clearly be unfair.
I can farm MP10 CotA with less than 150k eHP on a Monk, and that's only with like 200k DPS.
The melee classes can kite and avoid damage just fine if you wanted to put effort into doing so. People face tank because it's easier and raises eDPS due to higher DPS up-time. Not because it's required.
^ Decided to just record a quick video of my Monk in "Glass Cannon" gear.
Spent half the time running around since 25k HP and 180 AR is a little low for MP10, and my CotA clear times are still decent compared to what DH are capable of.
my wishlist:
+ ~10% skill dmg to Hatred Generator i.e. Hunger Arrow
+ ~30% skill dmg to Spender ie Elemental Arrow
+ x2 dmg rain of vengence, reduce 15s cooldown
my 280k dps DH with archery only clear act3 mp5 much slower than my 180k dps Monk cos 280k is always stay at 280k while monk can buff and convic mantra to around x2-x3 damage not mentioning in 2 sec u can throw 3 WOL 800% dmg
^ Decided to just record a quick video of my Monk in "Glass Cannon" gear.
Spent half the time running around since 25k HP and 180 AR is a little low for MP10, and my CotA clear times are still decent compared to what DH are capable of.
Thanks for the Video TianZi -- I think we will need to show blizzard later on once the PTR updates that the Rapid Fire buff is a Joke... lol
my wishlist:
+ ~10% skill dmg to Hatred Generator i.e. Hunger Arrow
+ ~30% skill dmg to Spender ie Elemental Arrow
+ x2 dmg rain of vengence, reduce 15s cooldown
my 280k dps DH with archery only clear act3 mp5 much slower than my 180k dps Monk cos 280k is always stay at 280k while monk can buff and convic mantra to around x2-x3 damage not mentioning in 2 sec u can throw 3 WOL 800% dmg
I like this wishlist haha. I think that they really need to lower the Cooldown on Fan of Knives and make the base radius the radius of the increased radius rune, hail of knives.
There is many DH problems. But 2 of them are dependant on the other, theres 2 routes to fix it.
On one side, spells of DH looks to be doing correct damage coefficients. Some of them just cost way too much. They just have terrible mechanics or next to no practical use in the meta game. Look at cluster arrow, look at how shit that thing is compared to HotA or WoL. It does less damage then either of these, cost more ressource, oh and best of all its radius and way of use is just pure shit.
So if you dont fix the shit ass mechanics, you gotta buff the damage, DH has nothing that stacks togheter like others. The best DH can do is stack Spike traps echoing blast and spam bola shot at the same time. Its still not close to the damage A HotA barb like me can punch up or a good monk, My rend crit ticks for more then a DH bola shot can crit in the same gear. My HotA hits for more then 6 spike traps ever could. Because im buffing myself to 400kpaper dps when im in combat. Even if that DH had straight 400k paper dps he does not get close my my kill speed. I know one of my best friend is a DH. I personnally left the class after they nerfed inferno and farming became so easy, DH was only good to finish inferno in the first week of this game.
Passive like Shaprshooter and Steady aim looks good on paper, but they are just pure shit. There is very little synergy in DH passives unlike every other classes. Even WD has some crazy passive synergy to pump up some massive dps with the correct gear.
The last problem, Healing for DH is an aboslute chore and literally forces every single DH build ever to use Shadow power gloom, you cant have a build without it and farm any high MP. If you do you are an idiot, thats what the game is telling you. Why is that? No its not because Shadow power gloom is OP. Have you ever tried to get Life steal or loh as a demon hunter? DH gets by far the worse coeficient of healing. LS because of the low damage, look at the huge LS from shadow power, i get better life steal tick as a barb or a monk with 6% lol. Dont even get started on LoH, DH spell has the worse coeficient out there. To have any meaningful healing a DH needs 15% LS from gloom, its not possible to survive with anything less.
All of these problems could be fixed with some rebalance, ei: give DH better healing coeficient on spells, change one of the trash passive to LS (Brooding lol, im regenerating 1% of my life per second useful lol!). Reduce hatered cost dramaticly or update the damage to match other classes expensive moves or make their mechanics not suck.
To anyone telling these DH they are not correct to ask for help, get the hell out of here. DH is pretty much the only class that is not optimal to play in groups at high MP. You dont want the DH there at all, hes just slowing you down compeltly. Give me a Sac WD or Zombie bear. Hell next patch give me an archon wizard, anything produce more damage or brings more useful buffs. That is why they need help, if you cant understand that then stop posting in this thread.
There is many DH problems. But 2 of them are dependant on the other, theres 2 routes to fix it.
On one side, spells of DH looks to be doing correct damage coefficients. Some of them just cost way too much. They just have terrible mechanics or next to no practical use in the meta game. Look at cluster arrow, look at how shit that thing is compared to HotA or WoL. It does less damage then either of these, cost more ressource, oh and best of all its radius and way of use is just pure shit.
So if you dont fix the shit ass mechanics, you gotta buff the damage, DH has nothing that stacks togheter like others. The best DH can do is stack Spike traps echoing blast and spam bola shot at the same time. Its still not close to the damage A HotA barb like me can punch up or a good monk, My rend crit ticks for more then a DH bola shot can crit in the same gear. My HotA hits for more then 6 spike traps ever could. Because im buffing myself to 400kpaper dps when im in combat. Even if that DH had straight 400k paper dps he does not get close my my kill speed. I know one of my best friend is a DH. I personnally left the class after they nerfed inferno and farming became so easy, DH was only good to finish inferno in the first week of this game.
Passive like Shaprshooter and Steady aim looks good on paper, but they are just pure shit. There is very little synergy in DH passives unlike every other classes. Even WD has some crazy passive synergy to pump up some massive dps with the correct gear.
The last problem, Healing for DH is an aboslute chore and literally forces every single DH build ever to use Shadow power gloom, you cant have a build without it and farm any high MP. If you do you are an idiot, thats what the game is telling you. Why is that? No its not because Shadow power gloom is OP. Have you ever tried to get Life steal or loh as a demon hunter? DH gets by far the worse coeficient of healing. LS because of the low damage, look at the huge LS from shadow power, i get better life steal tick as a barb or a monk with 6% lol. Dont even get started on LoH, DH spell has the worse coeficient out there. To have any meaningful healing a DH needs 15% LS from gloom, its not possible to survive with anything less.
All of these problems could be fixed with some rebalance, ei: give DH better healing coeficient on spells, change one of the trash passive to LS (Brooding lol, im regenerating 1% of my life per second useful lol!). Reduce hatered cost dramaticly or update the damage to match other classes expensive moves or make their mechanics not suck.
To anyone telling these DH they are not correct to ask for help, get the hell out of here. DH is pretty much the only class that is not optimal to play in groups at high MP. You dont want the DH there at all, hes just slowing you down compeltly. Give me a Sac WD or Zombie bear. Hell next patch give me an archon wizard, anything produce more damage or brings more useful buffs. That is why they need help, if you cant understand that then stop posting in this thread.
Some great points here and thanks for posting, and its good to have an outside-class perspective that is not completely clueless about the class' problems.
With that said, I'd like to add that the main problem with LS% for DHs comes from our weapons.
We simply cannot get a top tier dps weapon with life steal a 1300 dps 2 sock dex manticore cannot roll Life Steal -- Its that simple.
This automatically gimps us and says "you have to run SP to do anything"
While Windforce can roll life steal% it still leaves a huge damage hole, not to mention that our mitigation/survivability given by life steal% for DHs is super low because our effective DPS is super low. If we did a lot more actual TRUE DAMAGE PER SECONDlower life steal% would be required to keep us alive.
The fact that we need 15% life steal AND 35% dmg reduction in order to barely survive means that our damage is waaaay too low as those #s are extremely overpowered if taken at face value.
If you look at the videos I made you will see that even with that large amount of life steal/mitigation given by gloom I still have a chance to die. While TOKIO running with exact same gear with only 3% life steal (or less not exactly sure if his weapon even has 3% I just know he does not run 2 life steal weapons) and exact same BASE EHP (resist, lower HP than my DH because of quiver difference, armor) has no problem surviving what so ever because of his extremely high E-DPS eventhough hes running WAY lower life steal% and WAY lower mitigation (since I am perma gloomed).
DH CotA runs. Inefficient even when hitting a non-moving elite that has marked for death on it. The third clip where my monk with a 22.5k gold non-LS Skorn clears MP10 CotA faster than my DH is kind of sad and funny at the same time.
-----
Tried to find some various other threads on DH issues as well to link on the Blizzard forums.
^ Seems pretty clear that we've got some issues with various things aside from just eDPS. Things like DW have been broken since 1.0.4 with no attempts by Blizard to fix it. I've done tests on elites (WR/CotA), THEDONACE has done test on bosses (Ghom), and various other forum members have done tests on things like DE farming. DH is falling short in ALL of those categories.
There is many DH problems. But 2 of them are dependant on the other, theres 2 routes to fix it.
On one side, spells of DH looks to be doing correct damage coefficients. Some of them just cost way too much. They just have terrible mechanics or next to no practical use in the meta game. Look at cluster arrow, look at how shit that thing is compared to HotA or WoL. It does less damage then either of these, cost more ressource, oh and best of all its radius and way of use is just pure shit.
So if you dont fix the shit ass mechanics, you gotta buff the damage, DH has nothing that stacks togheter like others. The best DH can do is stack Spike traps echoing blast and spam bola shot at the same time. Its still not close to the damage A HotA barb like me can punch up or a good monk, My rend crit ticks for more then a DH bola shot can crit in the same gear. My HotA hits for more then 6 spike traps ever could. Because im buffing myself to 400kpaper dps when im in combat. Even if that DH had straight 400k paper dps he does not get close my my kill speed. I know one of my best friend is a DH. I personnally left the class after they nerfed inferno and farming became so easy, DH was only good to finish inferno in the first week of this game.
Passive like Shaprshooter and Steady aim looks good on paper, but they are just pure shit. There is very little synergy in DH passives unlike every other classes. Even WD has some crazy passive synergy to pump up some massive dps with the correct gear.
The last problem, Healing for DH is an aboslute chore and literally forces every single DH build ever to use Shadow power gloom, you cant have a build without it and farm any high MP. If you do you are an idiot, thats what the game is telling you. Why is that? No its not because Shadow power gloom is OP. Have you ever tried to get Life steal or loh as a demon hunter? DH gets by far the worse coeficient of healing. LS because of the low damage, look at the huge LS from shadow power, i get better life steal tick as a barb or a monk with 6% lol. Dont even get started on LoH, DH spell has the worse coeficient out there. To have any meaningful healing a DH needs 15% LS from gloom, its not possible to survive with anything less.
All of these problems could be fixed with some rebalance, ei: give DH better healing coeficient on spells, change one of the trash passive to LS (Brooding lol, im regenerating 1% of my life per second useful lol!). Reduce hatered cost dramaticly or update the damage to match other classes expensive moves or make their mechanics not suck.
To anyone telling these DH they are not correct to ask for help, get the hell out of here. DH is pretty much the only class that is not optimal to play in groups at high MP. You dont want the DH there at all, hes just slowing you down compeltly. Give me a Sac WD or Zombie bear. Hell next patch give me an archon wizard, anything produce more damage or brings more useful buffs. That is why they need help, if you cant understand that then stop posting in this thread.
At last, someone who doesn't main a DH who actually sees the issue with neutral eyes.
With an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin on the argument regarding whether DHs have a good amount of EFFECTIVE dps or not when compared to other classes.
-- Here we have myself with Tokio's Gear --
Video: ---> http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace/c/2140237
I have been playing around I tried some crazy !@#$ these 2 set ups, so far, seems to be the most optimal but I'm still working out the kinks and am open to suggestions but the point remains. DHs don't have enough E-DPS. I could always be more optimal gear-wise (but at that point who cares equal geared class will still out dps DHs)
I was running 402k Unbuffed WITH soj.
1st Attempt: 47 secs
2nd Attempt: death lolz
3rd Attempt: 45 secs
Now here is is Tokio (running 362k with an soj) accomplishing this feat in 19 Seconds:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/91239-hey-guys-tokio-here/
Okay guys, hope this gets some attention and Blizzard takes action sooner rather than later.
===========================
TheDonAce@D2JSP
http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
===========================
Ha. Bagstone.
So what you're saying is that we should be happy we can run low MP's more effectively than... Barbs? Cause that's basically the only class that can't run low MP's as effectively as DH's, however, they can probably do MP5 as effectively as we do MP1-2.
So if that's your logic, then you believe its right for the Demon Hunter to be a class which can't benefit as other classes do to ALL of the new game content. Farming keys on higher MP's so that it can actually drop once in a while, uber bosses (Most DH's arent invited to parties because of the eDPS problem they have), and basically all the new things Blizzard is introducing with the next patch that modifies gameplay experience, like the % boost on Exp and Magic find which is obviously more effective on higher MP's.
That's just like saying its fair that a class exists in a game just to get to lvl 20 when all other classes get to level 100.
Also, I think this game has been on the market long enough for people to still think paper DPS is important, it's not, and the DH is the perfect example, you can have 250k DPS and a Monk, Barb, or any other class basically with half of that will do things faster and more effectively than you, just because your class was made to suck and we just got to "accept" it. Paper DPS only matters if you have the skills to back it up, otherwise its just a nice big number on a sheet that does nothing for you. DPS might be a good reference on other classes, but that's only because their skills do the damage needed for it to be relevant, Id rather have 150k DPS and a 800%+ skill like the Monks Bell for example, than have a huge amount of DPS on paper but a skill that does 1/4 of the damage their's does, or 1/2 of the damage but 3 times the resources.
I'm not saying the other classes are OP, balance exists in this game, it just doesnt include the DH, and no, that's not right, and not one person that likes the DH class should just accept things when people know there's a problem, if you are gonna have 5 classes and one of them limited to low MP's then why have it at all? Blizzarrd is aiming to make the game funner for everyone, aiming to encourage people to play higher MP's, but what they need to do first is adapt this class for higher MP's before releasing content which doesn't affect us, or in fact, just drags us farther from where we should be, along with the other classes being able to do what they do, people that roll a DH dont pay less for the game, so why limit them to half of its content?
True,
I have had so many friends quit their DHs to go and roll Barbs or CM wizards. I wish blizzard would do something about this to fix this dying class. I have been doing more testing and I also found that my 120m Barb can clear KD2 almost twice as fast as this top 30 dps DH -- If blizzard does not see this as a problem then the DH class is screwed.
I will post a video of my findings when I get some time to make one!
Thanks for the support so far guys, lets get this issue addressed by Blizzard.
-- Here is a thread I made on bnet (1st one got closed by Blizzard for an unknown reason):
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988889
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TheDonAce@D2JSP
http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
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Your whole point is invalid because Blizzard with recent patchs tries to give incentive to play at highers monster powers, DE drops for example are a clear proof of that. A well deisgned game would have classes that play different, but all of them should shine with the right gear on the top difficulties.
Also the resource system of DH put them behind other classes who can just run around facerolling and spamming every skill like no tomorrow, so that need an adjust too IMHO OR, if you dont like DHs getting buffed nerf all the other "OP" classes like barb with the perma cc inmunity or monks retarded dmg because right now the difference its too big.
And theres no issue with survivability either, no one is complaining about that, they just believe that a DH's eDPS sucks for a main DPS class, and that our skills right now dont do the required damage to compete with other classes on higher MPs. We don't need simplicity, we need more damage, the class would stay the same, play the same, just do more DPS and therefore kill things faster. I repeat, I don't find it that complicated, we dont need new tools and functions, just the a buff on our damage skills that would place us on the level that other classes are right now.
1) Their Buffs are much better -- I was running Archery, Cull The Weak (Cold Soj+ RoV + Caltrops) , Custom Engineering but those still don't match
Tokio and I have discussed this extensively and we have concluded that our buffs are a big part of our problems, our Steady Aim is pretty useless in most situations and usually we lose E-DPS trying to keep ourselves at a distance from monsters so that the buff is active.
2) The skills that other classes have either work off of breakpoints in attack speed and crit chance or just work together very well to do very effective simultaneous DPS thereby boosting their E-DPS (i.e. Sweeping Wind).
3) Because our E-DPS is much lower our survivability is also much lower than say, Tokio's, because he does so much damage extremely fast that 3% life steal is overkill for him and he does not have the 35% mitigation that Gloom gives us DHs. Tokio and I were running at the same level of base EHP, yet even I with perma gloom was unable to coast through as he did (at least in the surviving sense). Point being that, I was running MUCH higher mitigation (because of Gloom of course) than Tokio and MUCH higher life steal% yet HE is able to survive through a lot more because of his huge amount of E-DPS.
With the amount of HP monsters have in high MP levels it's literally impossible to kite. Even if our sheet damage reflected our eDPS we would probably be hitting 800-1200k on our best attacks or maybe 1300k for manticore users, however, mobs in MP10 have a lot more HP than that. (Sure you could kite, but it would take minutes and it's not even fun anymore cause most of the times you end up hitting the portal from where you first arrived to the map).
If you're talking about unfair, we already take 30% more damage than you guys do, some guys on MP10 are unkiteable (most people on high monster powers like myself drop kiting because its a waste of time), and youll also have us deal less damage than you? Being ranged in a game where mobs have a huge amount of hitpoints and the map size might be limited most of the time isnt much of a advantage in my opinion, most DH's tank because that's the way we have to do things on higher monster powers.
Unfair is having all other classes wipe through all the game content while leaving us to enjoy half of it, not making a character who is ranged deal the same damage as melee characters do, I can hit 700k criticals with a 15M witch doctor without focusing solemnly on DPS and getting resists and hp too and wipe MP7-8, can pretty much live forever on MP10 on wiz, and they both have skills that make them get away from nasty situations (Spirit walk, teleport, etc...), but thats okay, I mean, only if you let the DH do that is it unfair.
I've been holding back from reading all of your posts but after reading this one and also noticing that you said "dousin"
I have been forced to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
Nah, lets get this straight. I don't want to play for the fact i'm playing MP10. I can play MP10 if I want to, take a lot more time than the other classes, but still be able to clear it.
What I want, and this I do want, is to be able for DH's in general to do ubers on high MP's, solo high MP's, and do them effectively, like every SINGLE class in the game does. You say we are better on lower MP's than other classes, that's frankly not true, let me explain you why. DH's start gearing, and once they have decent DPS and stuff they start playing higher MP's, the reason why DH's can handle MP5 better than say a Barbarian that handles MP5, is because he wasted twice the money that the Barbarian did JUST to be able to play MP5. So in MP5 maybe sheet dps matters, so the Barbarian has half the DPS the DH has, and well, also got it for half, so naturally the DH will do better. But once the Barbarian gears himself up, boom, hes on MP8 while the DH is still on MP5, even if he should be geared enough with his dps and hp to do mp8, have you ever seen a Monk or a Barbarian with end-game gear do low MP's? They can run through it just as we do, and even faster... see where I'm going?
You want us to be satisfied by the fact that our effectiveness will always be lower MP's, well of course its always going to be lower MP's, cause most of the DH's out there cant do higher, HP on mobs scales so much its just stupid to try, so that means we wont be able to do high MP ubers unless we find people we know, cause in a public game the guys will say, "no, youre a DH, we need efficiency, so you cant come. but HEY, remember, go do MP5 cause youll rock at it."
That doesn't make sense, and the fact you think the class was designed to stay at lower MP's amuses me really. Why would blizzard focus the last 3 months of its work on content that aims mostly towards 4 classes and not include the 5th? Its done, its a problem, the class has a problem, and it needs to be fixed, you have a different point of view and Im cool with that, but not only DH's know about this, ive seen monks, barbarians, witch doctors, wizards, basically everyone saying DH cant compete with them because it simply sucks.
I want balance, I want to be able to enjoy the WHOLE game, and not limit myself to lower MPs just cause the class I chose and like is the only one who doesnt pack enough damage to join the other classes on higher MPs, its not fun wasting countless gold on gear to see someone do half the work and have more benefits than we do, it has to be fixed, or the class will die.
I can farm MP10 CotA with less than 150k eHP on a Monk, and that's only with like 200k DPS.
The melee classes can kite and avoid damage just fine if you wanted to put effort into doing so. People face tank because it's easier and raises eDPS due to higher DPS up-time. Not because it's required.
^ Decided to just record a quick video of my Monk in "Glass Cannon" gear.
Spent half the time running around since 25k HP and 180 AR is a little low for MP10, and my CotA clear times are still decent compared to what DH are capable of.
+ ~10% skill dmg to Hatred Generator i.e. Hunger Arrow
+ ~30% skill dmg to Spender ie Elemental Arrow
+ x2 dmg rain of vengence, reduce 15s cooldown
my 280k dps DH with archery only clear act3 mp5 much slower than my 180k dps Monk cos 280k is always stay at 280k while monk can buff and convic mantra to around x2-x3 damage not mentioning in 2 sec u can throw 3 WOL 800% dmg
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/I82-6462/
Thanks for the Video TianZi -- I think we will need to show blizzard later on once the PTR updates that the Rapid Fire buff is a Joke... lol
I like this wishlist haha. I think that they really need to lower the Cooldown on Fan of Knives and make the base radius the radius of the increased radius rune, hail of knives.
On one side, spells of DH looks to be doing correct damage coefficients. Some of them just cost way too much. They just have terrible mechanics or next to no practical use in the meta game. Look at cluster arrow, look at how shit that thing is compared to HotA or WoL. It does less damage then either of these, cost more ressource, oh and best of all its radius and way of use is just pure shit.
So if you dont fix the shit ass mechanics, you gotta buff the damage, DH has nothing that stacks togheter like others. The best DH can do is stack Spike traps echoing blast and spam bola shot at the same time. Its still not close to the damage A HotA barb like me can punch up or a good monk, My rend crit ticks for more then a DH bola shot can crit in the same gear. My HotA hits for more then 6 spike traps ever could. Because im buffing myself to 400kpaper dps when im in combat. Even if that DH had straight 400k paper dps he does not get close my my kill speed. I know one of my best friend is a DH. I personnally left the class after they nerfed inferno and farming became so easy, DH was only good to finish inferno in the first week of this game.
Passive like Shaprshooter and Steady aim looks good on paper, but they are just pure shit. There is very little synergy in DH passives unlike every other classes. Even WD has some crazy passive synergy to pump up some massive dps with the correct gear.
The last problem, Healing for DH is an aboslute chore and literally forces every single DH build ever to use Shadow power gloom, you cant have a build without it and farm any high MP. If you do you are an idiot, thats what the game is telling you. Why is that? No its not because Shadow power gloom is OP. Have you ever tried to get Life steal or loh as a demon hunter? DH gets by far the worse coeficient of healing. LS because of the low damage, look at the huge LS from shadow power, i get better life steal tick as a barb or a monk with 6% lol. Dont even get started on LoH, DH spell has the worse coeficient out there. To have any meaningful healing a DH needs 15% LS from gloom, its not possible to survive with anything less.
All of these problems could be fixed with some rebalance, ei: give DH better healing coeficient on spells, change one of the trash passive to LS (Brooding lol, im regenerating 1% of my life per second useful lol!). Reduce hatered cost dramaticly or update the damage to match other classes expensive moves or make their mechanics not suck.
To anyone telling these DH they are not correct to ask for help, get the hell out of here. DH is pretty much the only class that is not optimal to play in groups at high MP. You dont want the DH there at all, hes just slowing you down compeltly. Give me a Sac WD or Zombie bear. Hell next patch give me an archon wizard, anything produce more damage or brings more useful buffs. That is why they need help, if you cant understand that then stop posting in this thread.
Some great points here and thanks for posting, and its good to have an outside-class perspective that is not completely clueless about the class' problems.
With that said, I'd like to add that the main problem with LS% for DHs comes from our weapons.
We simply cannot get a top tier dps weapon with life steal a 1300 dps 2 sock dex manticore cannot roll Life Steal -- Its that simple.
This automatically gimps us and says "you have to run SP to do anything"
While Windforce can roll life steal% it still leaves a huge damage hole, not to mention that our mitigation/survivability given by life steal% for DHs is super low because our effective DPS is super low. If we did a lot more actual TRUE DAMAGE PER SECOND lower life steal% would be required to keep us alive.
The fact that we need 15% life steal AND 35% dmg reduction in order to barely survive means that our damage is waaaay too low as those #s are extremely overpowered if taken at face value.
If you look at the videos I made you will see that even with that large amount of life steal/mitigation given by gloom I still have a chance to die. While TOKIO running with exact same gear with only 3% life steal (or less not exactly sure if his weapon even has 3% I just know he does not run 2 life steal weapons) and exact same BASE EHP (resist, lower HP than my DH because of quiver difference, armor) has no problem surviving what so ever because of his extremely high E-DPS eventhough hes running WAY lower life steal% and WAY lower mitigation (since I am perma gloomed).
DH CotA runs. Inefficient even when hitting a non-moving elite that has marked for death on it. The third clip where my monk with a 22.5k gold non-LS Skorn clears MP10 CotA faster than my DH is kind of sad and funny at the same time.
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Tried to find some various other threads on DH issues as well to link on the Blizzard forums.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569859805
^ Seems pretty clear that we've got some issues with various things aside from just eDPS. Things like DW have been broken since 1.0.4 with no attempts by Blizard to fix it. I've done tests on elites (WR/CotA), THEDONACE has done test on bosses (Ghom), and various other forum members have done tests on things like DE farming. DH is falling short in ALL of those categories.
At last, someone who doesn't main a DH who actually sees the issue with neutral eyes.
+1