People complained about the game's legendary being crap as hell so blizzard went on and improved all legendary and set items, the exception being Nat's legacy 4 piece bonus which was (correct me if im wrong), the only thing that was better before the legendary upg.
I know that it would'nt be fair to nerf the legacy set since a lot of people spent time/money to own it. On the other hand, now you basically have disparity between DH; the one's with the set and the one's without it. I think it would be fair to bring the old legacy set back in, allow cloaks to have discipline regeneration (maybe up to 1/sec) and rebalancing discipline spenders so that things get right once more.
What do you guys think of this issue? I know it as been discussed a lot but the old set is still seen as op and this is not fair for DH who can't afford it anymore.
Don't you think that it is little bit unfair something to be nerfed only because someone can't afford it ? I can't have two socked manti but I am not crying nerf it. This is clear Blizzard mistake but I don't think that the ouners of the old nat should pay this price. They had time for fixing and they stated this will stay so you need to live with that. Legacy Nat also comes on certain price like 50-100k dps loss depend on the rolls that you got. For me Blizzard should stop makeing patch after patch that completely f**ck players playstile but makeing more ways for playstyle and Legacy Nat should stay like one of this styles. You can manage to get same as Legacy Nat without have it just get 800 ress all and 40k hp this is achivable on same dps loss price and arround same price.
I don't think many people are unhappy with the old Nat set being good, rather the new Nat set being so much worse in comparison. The +20 Disc as supportive of a unique play style like the old one was. Now the new one doesn't necessarily have to copy the old one, but something that was as cool and different as it was.
The old nat 4x bonus is redicilous over powered, and should in no way be added to the game again. In respect of people already invested alot of money in it, the legacy set remains untouched. Then people can choose between a greatly OP 4x bonus or more stats from the new set.
We all spent tons of time and effort getting attack speed early on, for blizzard to semi randomly decide the solution was to, one patch day, cut the effectiveness of the entire stat in half.
I really wouldn't be surprised by anything, nor do I really care at this point.
Looking at people who buyed legacy Nats at the RMAH I think a nerf is a problem, it is like buying a fast car and
than the manufacturer decides that you car is only allowed to drive with half speed.
It is a law problem imo in some regions, you cannot change properties of things backwise.
Or every customer is getting his money back, but this counts for the seller too that he will suffer no loss.
The only way to kick out old Nats is improving new one even more.
Well, legally they inform you when buying stuff that the properties of the items might change due to changes in the game...so they can pretty much nerf all they want..unfortunately.
Yes, because everyone reads TOS you know.
Doesn't matter if you read them or not, it's still there and therefore informed...if you don't care to read, it's up to you but it doesn't change the fact that they're free to use the nerfhammer any time willing.
An extreme (but possible) notion, it seems to me, is that the RMAH admits a line of argument that putting such language in the TOS is not legal. All it would take is a lost court case to have that notion enshrined in law. It would be such a change not only for Diablo 3 and Blizzard but for all games and gaming companies that they would not want to risk it.
Looking at people who buyed legacy Nats at the RMAH I think a nerf is a problem, it is like buying a fast car and
than the manufacturer decides that you car is only allowed to drive with half speed.
It is a law problem imo in some regions, you cannot change properties of things backwise.
Or every customer is getting his money back, but this counts for the seller too that he will suffer no loss.
The only way to kick out old Nats is improving new one even more.
Well, legally they inform you when buying stuff that the properties of the items might change due to changes in the game...so they can pretty much nerf all they want..unfortunately.
Yes, because everyone reads TOS you know.
Doesn't matter if you read them or not, it's still there and therefore informed...if you don't care to read, it's up to you but it doesn't change the fact that they're free to use the nerfhammer any time willing.
An extreme (but possible) notion, it seems to me, is that the RMAH admits a line of argument that putting such language in the TOS is not legal. All it would take is a lost court case to have that notion enshrined in law. It would be such a change not only for Diablo 3 and Blizzard but for all games and gaming companies that they would not want to risk it.
Its their pixels, they can do whatever they want with em. And its purely legal for them to do so. You buying stuff on ah, mainly let you wear and use THEIR pixels but it will be theirs. And you will never own them,
But tomorrow or when 1.0.5 is released everything will change. I've done a lot of testing and such on PTR and what I know for a fact, monster power is the nerf natalya legacy needs. Because when handleing higher monster levels such, you wont have the damage high enough with the lagecy peices. The damage difference between natalya legacy and then new natalya or random peices is such a huge deal. I would gain about 90k+ damage just from taking off my natalya legacy set and put on the other.
Because really what is natalya legacy all about today, everyone you ask it is all about speed/vault. But after the patch? if you play monsterpower 7-10? speed wont really matter because it will be slow enough. You may not even be playing with vault because 24% movement speed will do enough.
With the patch 1.0.5 the speed will come from how much damage you have, pure damage output. The more damage you have the faster you will farm. It wont be about how fast you can get disc back. So my two cents is. Get as much damage as you can, and stop compareing natalya legacy or not. Because people will soon see what a nerf it is to miss out on the damage you gain from the other gear rather then natalya legacy. And with the buffs to Natalya's embrace i saw in news yesterday, it seems it will get even more dex/vitality, so legacy will stand even less chance. Seems mempo helmet is getting buffed insanely much also.
I see a problem in your reasoning. I agree with the first paragraph as today it really is not about damage but rather how fast you are moving from one pack to another.
It is the later argument I do not agree with. You reason that with higher monster power--7 to 10--you will need more damage to be efficient. However, it is quite obvious that the hp scaling currently in place is so harsh that no amount of additional damage will allow you to maintain same efficiency (understand as kill speed) as in 1.04. This is a point where Natalya's legacy 4P bonus come into play again due to inherent DH mechanics built into D3.
DH is using discipline to fuel all tactical and defensive skills in the game. These skills generally help you to mitigate or avoid damage and keep monsters at distance from the character. Current monsters (1.0.4) have damage and HP values scaled in a way that corresponds with required expenditure of discipline during an encounter. The better is your gear, ie. damage, the faster you kill your enemy and the less discipline you spend on survival or maintaining the distance between you and the enemy. Now consider the changes in 1.0.5 that will introduce monster power that is no longer maintaining the balance between damage required to kill a monster and the expenditure of discipline to survive or keep monster at bay. This is an issue of higher monster powers, lets say 7 to 10, where HP scaling is very harsh. Azmodan can be used as an example: 1.0.4 - 7.7m HP; 1.0.5 - 43,5m HP.
Once you realize that you can not increase your DPS output enough, you will have to resort to increase your longevity, ie. discipline-fueled tactical and defensive skills, in order to succeed. This is where Natalya's legacy 4P will shine again.
I have a character with roughly 110k character sheet DPS (w/o SS). There is only few monsters in 1.0.4 that give me a challange but exactly those monsters are the ones that put hard strain on my discipline usage. Examples are tremors, accursed and the infamous phasebeasts. These monster types require extensive use of traps, smoke screen and/or shadow power in order to be defeated because they are either fast, durable, hard hitting or any combination of those characteristics together. I still kill them now (in 1.0.4) because my damage output is sufficient to dish out enough damage before I run out of discipline. Now fast forward to 1.0.5 when those monsters suddenly have 10x or more HP but your DPS can not be increased anywhere near that amount. This is where superior discipline regeneration from Natalya's legacy 4P bonus will be extremely useful again.
The only good point about this is that Blizzard was smart enough to design monster power in a way that you are not required to play on high MP levels to get the best loot. The loot is the same on MP1 as is on MP10. You get a bonus to MF/GF but the loot is of the same quality. Therefore, you are not forced to play on those high MP levels to inevitably face issues with discipline and be put against impossible option to obtain the unobtainable or fail--obviously you can spend billions of gold to buy legacy Natalya set but since the amount of available pieces is finite now, large portion of DH population will never be able to obtain it.
Both posts make good points. We're really going to have to see how it goes and do some extensive testing, but contrary to Baron's opinion, I think the new set will be better at higher MP levels.
My opinion.... The discipline regen of the old set won't outweigh the stats of the new set +20 additional disc. At higher MP levels, anyone using the old Nat's without high AR will basically be back to the days of glass canon. Even permanent nerfed Gloom won't be able to handle the 300%+ damage increase without resists and this is where the new set shines. Taken as individual pieces, the new set blows the old set away. The ONLY reason to have the legacy set is for the regen and everyone that has, or had, the old set knows they were gimping some of their stats by having it. With the nerfs to Gloom and ToC, they are removing most of the reason of having infinite discipline pools. As Wonsie said, most of the reason for the regen was to increase farming speed and running from elite to elite, which disappears at higher MP levels.
Besides, you can still practically have permanent gloom with the new set if you have +10 on your quiver, chest, or ammy and use Prep. Changing the cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds is a huge impact when you have 60 discipline.
Looking at people who buyed legacy Nats at the RMAH I think a nerf is a problem, it is like buying a fast car and
than the manufacturer decides that you car is only allowed to drive with half speed.
It is a law problem imo in some regions, you cannot change properties of things backwise.
Or every customer is getting his money back, but this counts for the seller too that he will suffer no loss.
The only way to kick out old Nats is improving new one even more.
Well, legally they inform you when buying stuff that the properties of the items might change due to changes in the game...so they can pretty much nerf all they want..unfortunately.
Yes, because everyone reads TOS you know.
Doesn't matter if you read them or not, it's still there and therefore informed...if you don't care to read, it's up to you but it doesn't change the fact that they're free to use the nerfhammer any time willing.
An extreme (but possible) notion, it seems to me, is that the RMAH admits a line of argument that putting such language in the TOS is not legal. All it would take is a lost court case to have that notion enshrined in law. It would be such a change not only for Diablo 3 and Blizzard but for all games and gaming companies that they would not want to risk it.
Its their pixels, they can do whatever they want with em. And its purely legal for them to do so. You buying stuff on ah, mainly let you wear and use THEIR pixels but it will be theirs. And you will never own them,
Not necessarily; Sure it's what they say, it's what the terms of service say and it's how they want you to behave, but there's nothing stopping you from challenging it in court. The fact that there's real money associated with items makes the case for it easier.
Of course there were other reasons that old-Nat's got it's special pass.
If you have legacy Nat's with 120-160 Dex on all the pieces and a good Mark you will have less overall damage compared to the new set, no doubt about it.
I do disagree that having it will be a detriment as with higher MP comes longer fights, more kiting, etc. and the +2 bonus Disc regen is highly valuable to specs and playstyles that can take advantage of that. I've got 11% to spike traps/chest and 14% elem arrow/quiver and I put them to good use. PS SpikeTraps then SS is a great strat for reflect packs, especially Siegemaster with Kunne.
I'm farming in 7 and have been in 10 just to see what it's all about. It's tough but at 193k no SS, 44k health and 50%+ to resists and armor so it's doable. I'm looking for keys so they just get in my way for right now.
I enjoy the changes and look forward to bigger and better things! Thanks Blizz.
I know that it would'nt be fair to nerf the legacy set since a lot of people spent time/money to own it. On the other hand, now you basically have disparity between DH; the one's with the set and the one's without it. I think it would be fair to bring the old legacy set back in, allow cloaks to have discipline regeneration (maybe up to 1/sec) and rebalancing discipline spenders so that things get right once more.
What do you guys think of this issue? I know it as been discussed a lot but the old set is still seen as op and this is not fair for DH who can't afford it anymore.
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
I really wouldn't be surprised by anything, nor do I really care at this point.
An extreme (but possible) notion, it seems to me, is that the RMAH admits a line of argument that putting such language in the TOS is not legal. All it would take is a lost court case to have that notion enshrined in law. It would be such a change not only for Diablo 3 and Blizzard but for all games and gaming companies that they would not want to risk it.
Its their pixels, they can do whatever they want with em. And its purely legal for them to do so. You buying stuff on ah, mainly let you wear and use THEIR pixels but it will be theirs. And you will never own them,
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
Both posts make good points. We're really going to have to see how it goes and do some extensive testing, but contrary to Baron's opinion, I think the new set will be better at higher MP levels.
My opinion.... The discipline regen of the old set won't outweigh the stats of the new set +20 additional disc. At higher MP levels, anyone using the old Nat's without high AR will basically be back to the days of glass canon. Even permanent nerfed Gloom won't be able to handle the 300%+ damage increase without resists and this is where the new set shines. Taken as individual pieces, the new set blows the old set away. The ONLY reason to have the legacy set is for the regen and everyone that has, or had, the old set knows they were gimping some of their stats by having it. With the nerfs to Gloom and ToC, they are removing most of the reason of having infinite discipline pools. As Wonsie said, most of the reason for the regen was to increase farming speed and running from elite to elite, which disappears at higher MP levels.
Besides, you can still practically have permanent gloom with the new set if you have +10 on your quiver, chest, or ammy and use Prep. Changing the cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds is a huge impact when you have 60 discipline.
Not necessarily; Sure it's what they say, it's what the terms of service say and it's how they want you to behave, but there's nothing stopping you from challenging it in court. The fact that there's real money associated with items makes the case for it easier.
Of course there were other reasons that old-Nat's got it's special pass.
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
I do disagree that having it will be a detriment as with higher MP comes longer fights, more kiting, etc. and the +2 bonus Disc regen is highly valuable to specs and playstyles that can take advantage of that. I've got 11% to spike traps/chest and 14% elem arrow/quiver and I put them to good use. PS SpikeTraps then SS is a great strat for reflect packs, especially Siegemaster with Kunne.
I'm farming in 7 and have been in 10 just to see what it's all about. It's tough but at 193k no SS, 44k health and 50%+ to resists and armor so it's doable. I'm looking for keys so they just get in my way for right now.
I enjoy the changes and look forward to bigger and better things! Thanks Blizz.
Conform or be cast out.
My Demon Hunter: http://tinyurl.com/anufqzj Yes, THAT Analogkid- pissing off Hunters since 2007.