I just thought about something... Because gear dropped is exclusive to each player, Blizzard has the capability of adjusting randomness for each player.
In WoW, Blizzard used itemize characters via boss item drops. However, these items were rolled on by everyone and a player could be unlucky. To resolve this issue, Blizzard combined this with a point system that you could use to buy upgrades for your gear, so you can't be exceptionally unlucky.
In Diablo, I doubt they will have a point system for exceptionally unlucky players. However, because gear is dropped exclusively for each player, they could prevent these super unlucky situations with a pseudo-random generator.
For example, lets say I need rubies.... This could happen in a truly random engine:
- Diamond
- Diamond
- Emerald
- Diamond
- Emerald
- Emerald
- Saphire
- Diamond
- Saphire
- Saphire
- Saphire
etc.
In a pseudo-random engine, Blizzard could detect this unluckiness and throw in some rubies. They could do this with boss gear drops as well. The player never knows they are doing it!
What do you think about this? Will they do this? Should they do this?
I don't think they should do this. I think the pure/true randomness of Diablo is what makes it so great. Trading and crafting will make up for the bad luck.
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I don't think they should do this. I think the pure/true randomness of Diablo is what makes it so great. Trading and crafting will make up for the bad luck.
True, but they mentioned having "Soul-bound" items somewhere. That can't be resolved with trading.
Some high level items will be BoE, where once you equip them you can't trade them. So you'll still be able to trade your gems and everything, just not stuff like legendaries or very high level items.
I believe a pure random item drop is the best way to go. While there is a chance that you may not get a ruby out of ten gem drops, there is also the same amount of chance that you will get 5 rubies in a row. Would the psuedo-random generator then detect that you're not getting any of the other gems and stop giving you rubies? I think this in the end would just end up being as random as a random generator. How would the psuedo-random generator know what gem you wanted to socket your item with?
I don't think they will do that. It hurts the spirit of the game. Part of the game is knowing that there are some items you will have to work a lot harder than the odds just because of bad luck. Crafting and trading will do a good enough job at evening things out.
first there is no such thing as true random in a computer program. second if you played dota competitively you would have studied the pseudo random that blizzard implemented in war3. im sure they will do the same with diablo3.
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A Post Concerning The Real-Money Auction House:
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Pure randomness is the best way to go. After all it's that randomness that helps along the economy, or at least is one factor in the economy. As Scyber mentioned crafting and trading will help the truly unlucky players. I myself am rather unlucky, though after taking a statistics class I started to think I'm just haunted.. lmao. Really though for the amount I played, I got nothing from drops.. All my gear came from trading, which sadly and admittedly was fueled by 420s which I got from my friend who got them from who the hell knows where. I hope that isn't the case in D3.. For the love of god Blizzard fix duping.. Anyway lol unluckiness can be over come by trading and crafting.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
second if you played dota competitively you would have studied the pseudo random that blizzard implemented in war3.
Elaborate.
this is copy-pasted from a thread that i saved a while ago. NONE of this was written by me
when we think of percentages of chanced attacks such as maim or critical strike all we know is the percentage, and that is all. For example Mortred’s ultimate has 15% changes to deal 4x damage. But what does that really mean? If it is truly 15% then there is a horrible glitch to the game.
Let’s think of this scenario: Mortred’s critical strike
If we just use the static 15% method, then that would basically mean every time you attack, the computer rolls out a 1~100 number and if that number is below 15 then you get a nice red number flashing behind her. This doesn’t sound too bad right? WRONG !
This could potentially mean that you could never ever cirt in the entire game, or in fact if you are really lucky and crit every time you attack.
Now, I know that will probably not happen but you do see the flaw in the logic there right?
Therefore the smart Blizzard techs developed the pseudo random distribution system.
The advantage of using this pseudo distribution is that you will never "not" have maim and never "always" maim.
The equation for this is distribution is really quite a simple linear equation
P(N) = C * N
P= Probability of occurring an attack modifier
N= Number of attacks, minimum of 1.
C= Is a constant that represents the initial probability of the percentage and how much it increases each time.
P is what we are trying to find so that isn’t need to be explained.
N is also quite simple, it is basically how many attacks you have ordered or received
C is the only one that is tricky.
Basic algebra shows this N value to be equal to 1 / C. The value of C in turn depends on the probability stated in the World Editor for that skill. This effectively means that if we had “infinite” number of attacks the number of attack modifiers divided by the total number of attacks should give us what our “ideal” C equals right?
P(infinite) / N (number of attacks) = C ideal
However we do not have “infinite” and so therefore not possible to get a perfectly exact number for C. Actually according to the Blizzard Techs to even calculate a rounded “C” ever time an attack is issued will eat up so much CPU that we will just be constantly lagging.
Therefore Blizzard has done the work for us. They took the easy way out, instead of calculating the actual value of C every time they simply imbedded a single constant multiple to all of the attack modifying skills.
5%
That’s right, 5% everything is rounded to the nearest 5%.
That is why all these Pseudo Random Distribution skills are rounded to the nearest 5th of a percent. What does that mean for us? Well if we just plug all the numbers in…
Why am I telling you all this? Well basically, the next time you use some hero with this distribution ability, maybe before you go into a battle hit a few creeps first based on the statistics shown above. This might cost you some time, but really if you were someone like Mortred 1 crit can make all the difference.
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A Post Concerning The Real-Money Auction House:
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Interesting. But why do you assume Diablo 3 -will- have this pseudo-randomness? Or that the pseudo-random algorithms would be used for drops? I doubt it.
It can make sense to use it in PvP situations, but I don't see why they would use it for drops, or any other game mechanics.
At the very least, just because they used it in WC3 doesn't mean they intend to use it in Diablo 3.
Yes I can see how it can make sense in PVP situations as well but I don't see it happening in the loot system. Mainly because I think I read somewhere that they are developing D3 as a multi-player experience and that being the case, the probability of drops over the population of all D3 players will balance out. That means you will always have other players to trade with if you don't get what you want. There is also the crafting system for items as well.
Being a generally unlucky fellow I'm still all for a true random loot generator. Because while I may go weeks without seeing something I need, I have been known to get 5 awesome things back to back.
It's probably one of the things that makes Diablo II so addicting, actually, because it's like a form of gambling. Instead of money, however, you're trading minutes of life to have a chance at gaining fake, digital items. hmmm...
I digress. True random is the way to go and Diablo wouldn't be Diablo without it.
really though, there is no true random, and psuedo-random will be used to some extent. Otherwise a certain rune that really isnt the BEST might have an inflated value because it simply didnt drop as much out of FREAK coincidence.
pseudo-random may not be used to give everyone a fair chance at items but it will probably be used to ensure that an even amount of each type of item drops to keep the economy stable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A Post Concerning The Real-Money Auction House:
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
But the thing is that, given enough drops/monsters killed, there will be no freak coincidences. If you just put in percentages for certain items, those percentages will show themselves across millions of players and hours. So you won't have to implement some complicated thing where things that haven't dropped recently have a higher chance to drop.
But the thing is that, given enough drops/monsters killed, there will be no freak coincidences. If you just put in percentages for certain items, those percentages will show themselves across millions of players and hours. So you won't have to implement some complicated thing where things that haven't dropped recently have a higher chance to drop.
but if you flip a coin 10 times you arent for SURE going to get 5heads/5tails. ofcourse over an infinite number of tosses you will average out to 50%/50%. The problem is that if early on things arent equal we are going to have some items that have dropped less be worth MORE, and although this will balance out eventually in our minds it will be a standard for trading with those items. I mean sure this might not happen because of AH/gold standardization but it can still happen. Maybe certain runes will drop less and because of that become the standard of trading?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A Post Concerning The Real-Money Auction House:
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
really though, there is no true random, and psuedo-random will be used to some extent. Otherwise a certain rune that really isnt the BEST might have an inflated value because it simply didnt drop as much out of FREAK coincidence.
pseudo-random may not be used to give everyone a fair chance at items but it will probably be used to ensure that an even amount of each type of item drops to keep the economy stable.
You assume that pure randomness does not do that in the first place.
If there is a 1 chance out of 10000 something will drop, then in the end, it won't be more, or less common. Will there be 20 of X at the Auction House (if thats the system they use) instead of 60 some day? Yes.
But probabilities dictates that it evens itself out eventually. Even if a computer can't make "true random", its still too close to true randomness to matter.
In the end, if there's a 5% chance for an item to drop, then all the players together will see 5% of it drop. Some day it might be 4%, some day it might be 6%. But the variation will make no major difference.
but if you flip a coin 10 times you arent for SURE going to get 5heads/5tails. ofcourse over an infinite number of tosses you will average out to 50%/50%. The problem is that if early on things arent equal we are going to have some items that have dropped less be worth MORE, and although this will balance out eventually in our minds it will be a standard for trading with those items. I mean sure this might not happen because of AH/gold standardization but it can still happen. Maybe certain runes will drop less and because of that become the standard of trading?
What do you mean? The standards will change. Thats a crazy argument. It wouldn't even last a week.
What do you mean? The standards will change. Thats a crazy argument. It wouldn't even last a week.
well if you understand the argument enough to say its crazy, and then refute it then why are you asking what it means?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A Post Concerning The Real-Money Auction House:
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Yes, there is no such thing as "true" random(when it comes to electronics), but whether it is pseudo-random drops(which most of us are calling pure random) or altering the randomized results to prevent "infinity" from happening, it will, in the end, balance itself out at some point in time. In my opinion, you definitely could alter a drop system to drop loot more evenly across players or even to individual players, but that won't solve the problem of inflation or deflation of any particular drop because you cannot predict to WHOM those items are dropped to.
Example: There have only been 20 Top-Tier Unique Item#1 that dropped in USWest today, and 40 Top-Tier Unique Item#2. Even if the system recognizes that Item#1 needs to be dropped more often, what if the increased drops went to players that like to hoard and/or decided to never trade them? The market would more or less be in the same condition if you didn't have an assisted prevention of "infinity".
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In WoW, Blizzard used itemize characters via boss item drops. However, these items were rolled on by everyone and a player could be unlucky. To resolve this issue, Blizzard combined this with a point system that you could use to buy upgrades for your gear, so you can't be exceptionally unlucky.
In Diablo, I doubt they will have a point system for exceptionally unlucky players. However, because gear is dropped exclusively for each player, they could prevent these super unlucky situations with a pseudo-random generator.
For example, lets say I need rubies.... This could happen in a truly random engine:
- Diamond
- Diamond
- Emerald
- Diamond
- Emerald
- Emerald
- Saphire
- Diamond
- Saphire
- Saphire
- Saphire
etc.
In a pseudo-random engine, Blizzard could detect this unluckiness and throw in some rubies. They could do this with boss gear drops as well. The player never knows they are doing it!
What do you think about this? Will they do this? Should they do this?
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
True, but they mentioned having "Soul-bound" items somewhere. That can't be resolved with trading.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the news team.
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"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Elaborate.
this is copy-pasted from a thread that i saved a while ago. NONE of this was written by me
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Interesting. But why do you assume Diablo 3 -will- have this pseudo-randomness? Or that the pseudo-random algorithms would be used for drops? I doubt it.
It can make sense to use it in PvP situations, but I don't see why they would use it for drops, or any other game mechanics.
At the very least, just because they used it in WC3 doesn't mean they intend to use it in Diablo 3.
It's probably one of the things that makes Diablo II so addicting, actually, because it's like a form of gambling. Instead of money, however, you're trading minutes of life to have a chance at gaining fake, digital items. hmmm...
I digress. True random is the way to go and Diablo wouldn't be Diablo without it.
pseudo-random may not be used to give everyone a fair chance at items but it will probably be used to ensure that an even amount of each type of item drops to keep the economy stable.
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the news team.
DiabloFans: Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Live Chat
but if you flip a coin 10 times you arent for SURE going to get 5heads/5tails. ofcourse over an infinite number of tosses you will average out to 50%/50%. The problem is that if early on things arent equal we are going to have some items that have dropped less be worth MORE, and although this will balance out eventually in our minds it will be a standard for trading with those items. I mean sure this might not happen because of AH/gold standardization but it can still happen. Maybe certain runes will drop less and because of that become the standard of trading?
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
If there is a 1 chance out of 10000 something will drop, then in the end, it won't be more, or less common. Will there be 20 of X at the Auction House (if thats the system they use) instead of 60 some day? Yes.
But probabilities dictates that it evens itself out eventually. Even if a computer can't make "true random", its still too close to true randomness to matter.
In the end, if there's a 5% chance for an item to drop, then all the players together will see 5% of it drop. Some day it might be 4%, some day it might be 6%. But the variation will make no major difference.
What do you mean? The standards will change. Thats a crazy argument. It wouldn't even last a week.
well if you understand the argument enough to say its crazy, and then refute it then why are you asking what it means?
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Example: There have only been 20 Top-Tier Unique Item#1 that dropped in USWest today, and 40 Top-Tier Unique Item#2. Even if the system recognizes that Item#1 needs to be dropped more often, what if the increased drops went to players that like to hoard and/or decided to never trade them? The market would more or less be in the same condition if you didn't have an assisted prevention of "infinity".