The +XP stats and bonuses will be almost pointless in 2.4. The level of XP you will get from them will in no way compete with using gear with better stats that allows you to push a higher GRIFT -which will yield comparatively more XP than pushing a lower GRIFT with the XP gear. The only possible exception is if your best gear happens to already have +XP on it, which probably means that you should be on the lookout for an eventual upgrade that makes better use of that secondary stat.
As already stated by others, support builds will probably still be a thing, but not to provide +XP, but rather to provide CC; buffs and debuffs, ultimately resulting in faster and/or higher GRIFT runs. Efficient XP farming is a ratio of how much you earn vs how long it takes you to earn it. With XP bonuses being nerfed into the ground, Blizzard has publicly stated the rationale for the XP nerf is to end the current meta of endless XP buffed grinding, as it makes players feel they are forced to do it if they want to compete on paragon level progress.
^^ watch this post is 100% wrong and everyone will still be using Borns/Cains/Hellfire/Leorics
5% for xp farmers earning over a trillion XP/day means hundreds of billions of XP over the course of days. Again, the changes are relative. So long as xp bonuses exist on gear relative to gear with no bonuses, the % values are equally attractive
The question you need to ask yourself is that is the 5% xp worth it if you can just as easily run 1+ GR levels higher with a different gem, rings, etc...
Because if you can only run one GR higher, then you get more XP than the 5%
but you wouldn't get higher without xp gear. only zDPS supports wear that xp gear. as long as they can have their support legendaries AND the xp equip, there will be no reason not to wear xp equip. it doesn't matter if it only gives 5 or 50%. the value only matters to those who are not using it, since they'll always lose out on xp. it just doesn't feel so punishing with 5%
It does matter if it's 5% or 50%, that statement asssumes nothing can be done with alternatives, or that there are no viable opportunity costs. So many options open up when you remove the mandatory requirement for exp gear. Borns (2) + Cains (2) + Hellfire / Leorics (1-2) + mandatory RoRG (1) open up, which is about 5 - 7 item slots, not to mention the Helm Gem Socket and Weapon Socket. Think of what you can accomplish with this. Supports will be able to add additional utility and toughness to their builds or even do some kind of hybrid support / dps setup. If each support's non-exp gear will help the party do current GRs more than 5% quicker or make one higher GR possible it will be just as good or better than exp gear.
Also, on a different note, I don't see why 4 DPS would ever be viable. Supports offer so much more than exp to the party as others pointed out. Creating mass alone speeds up rifts dramatically
Obviously you never push end game speeds either..... Borns/Cains/Hellfire ring and leorics HELP the group by making supp more tanky to keep group up. They are going NOWHERE, dead game is dead
Cains/Hellfire/Leorics provide 0 benefit to defense that other items would not. Borns does provide 15% life with the 2 set, but that is a very, very small bonus.
Now, in 2.4, we are having 2 very large changes - Only 1/10th of XP bonuses is shared, mob health whenever you are in 1-3 player difficulties have been reduced (To the point that 3 players will be reaching 2 or so GRs higher than 4 players).
The XP bonus change murdered and buried XP zdps. You will no longer use Hellfire/Leorics in serious progression, and Cain's is now a more personal item you sub in for farming to somewhat increase the amount of XP you get.
As for zdps, the primary characteristic of zdps is that they forgo the main set damage bonus in exchange for multiple support pieces. In the era of CC zdps, zdps, rather then grabbing 6/4 piece, would instead grab as many CC pieces as possible. With XP zdps, they would forgo set bonuses entirely and instead grab as many +xp pieces as possible, with a few group support legs (Strongarm, Pride).
I predict that in 2.4, you will not see a SINGLE player at the top leaderboards without their 6 piece, which automatically makes them non-zdps. Instead, you will have certain players in that group who sacrifice, say, 20-30% of their damage to pick up a few group support abilities. Thus, you'll have 2 players doing about 36% of the groups dps each, and one player doing 28% but providing a good 40% or so extra toughness/healing. I also predict that the 4 player leaderboard will be behind the 3 player leaderboard, so people seriously pushing greater rifts will push 3 player GRs, but for xp and such you'll go with 4 player speed runs 20 or so lvls behind your max possible GR lvl.
I hope you're right, in 2.3 people predicted more 'hybrid-dps' builds and less exp-support ones due to the exp 'nerf' of sharing exp around the group, and look what happened...This is a huge nail in the coffin though for at least exp-support.
I'm hoping hybrid toons will be more popular but I'm thinking zdps will remain because to support properly you need to dedicate a whole skill and item build. Look at the new heal monks; it's a very specific item build that requires gear almost as specific as DPSers (secondary resist, secondary health globes, cooldown reduction, life per second, and life on hit are all mandatory almost everywhere you can get it). If a barb gives up marauder's cry that alone reduces damage over 30%, and in order to support properly that barb will likely have to give up more than just that skill.
Anyway, we'll see. I personally like pure support; I wish they made sets to 'support' them.
The question you need to ask yourself is that is the 5% xp worth it if you can just as easily run 1+ GR levels higher with a different gem, rings, etc...
Because if you can only run one GR higher, then you get more XP than the 5%
but you wouldn't get higher without xp gear. only zDPS supports wear that xp gear. as long as they can have their support legendaries AND the xp equip, there will be no reason not to wear xp equip. it doesn't matter if it only gives 5 or 50%. the value only matters to those who are not using it, since they'll always lose out on xp. it just doesn't feel so punishing with 5%
It does matter if it's 5% or 50%, that statement asssumes nothing can be done with alternatives, or that there are no viable opportunity costs. So many options open up when you remove the mandatory requirement for exp gear. Borns (2) + Cains (2) + Hellfire / Leorics (1-2) + mandatory RoRG (1) open up, which is about 5 - 7 item slots, not to mention the Helm Gem Socket and Weapon Socket. Think of what you can accomplish with this. Supports will be able to add additional utility and toughness to their builds or even do some kind of hybrid support / dps setup. If each support's non-exp gear will help the party do current GRs more than 5% quicker or make one higher GR possible it will be just as good or better than exp gear.
Also, on a different note, I don't see why 4 DPS would ever be viable. Supports offer so much more than exp to the party as others pointed out. Creating mass alone speeds up rifts dramatically
Obviously you never push end game speeds either..... Borns/Cains/Hellfire ring and leorics HELP the group by making supp more tanky to keep group up. They are going NOWHERE, dead game is dead
Cains/Hellfire/Leorics provide 0 benefit to defense that other items would not. Borns does provide 15% life with the 2 set, but that is a very, very small bonus.
Now, in 2.4, we are having 2 very large changes - Only 1/10th of XP bonuses is shared, mob health whenever you are in 1-3 player difficulties have been reduced (To the point that 3 players will be reaching 2 or so GRs higher than 4 players).
The XP bonus change murdered and buried XP zdps. You will no longer use Hellfire/Leorics in serious progression, and Cain's is now a more personal item you sub in for farming to somewhat increase the amount of XP you get.
As for zdps, the primary characteristic of zdps is that they forgo the main set damage bonus in exchange for multiple support pieces. In the era of CC zdps, zdps, rather then grabbing 6/4 piece, would instead grab as many CC pieces as possible. With XP zdps, they would forgo set bonuses entirely and instead grab as many +xp pieces as possible, with a few group support legs (Strongarm, Pride).
I predict that in 2.4, you will not see a SINGLE player at the top leaderboards without their 6 piece, which automatically makes them non-zdps. Instead, you will have certain players in that group who sacrifice, say, 20-30% of their damage to pick up a few group support abilities. Thus, you'll have 2 players doing about 36% of the groups dps each, and one player doing 28% but providing a good 40% or so extra toughness/healing. I also predict that the 4 player leaderboard will be behind the 3 player leaderboard, so people seriously pushing greater rifts will push 3 player GRs, but for xp and such you'll go with 4 player speed runs 20 or so lvls behind your max possible GR lvl.
All wrong, damage is done easy as hell in D3 especially in 2.4 with all of the damage buffs and set buffs, everyone will be wearing XP gear but dedicated DPS, same as always. Easy to tell
Umm, no. XP gear results in a huge damage loss, always. XP gear is also greatly nerfed in 2.4 - Its fine solo, but it has practically no purpose in MP. The average is still there, so if you have 200% bonus xp, and in a 2 player rift, your partner has no bonus XP, then both players will have 100%, and THEN you take 1/10th of that and thats your actual bonus XP for multiplayer, which will be 10% bonus XP, in exchange for a HUGE hit to damage.Currently, most builds can go with a Leorics Crown because there are very few competing slots for gear there. In 2.4, blizzard has added a HUGE number of supporting legendaries to virtually ALL builds, so Leorics crown now competes with at least 2 items that will result in either a huge defensive boost (In the range of 50% less damage taken), or a huge offensive boost (25% extra damage done generally).
Using 3 piece Cains/Borns is trash in a group in 2.4. Using Hellfire/Leorics is trash in a group in 2.4. There are SO many additional options that if you use those pieces while grouping, you are essentially dragging the entire group down with NO extra benefit.
Of course, in TX, high-paragon players may continue to use a few +XP gear as their defensive/offensive stats are already so high that things die with one hit even if you use Gems of Ease, so if you are already doing 130% overkill in most situations and you can stand in the middle of the arcane sentry without worrying about dieing, you might as well drop your toughness/damage in half and pick up 10% extra xp bonus (Because in a group, thats all you are gonna get). But speed-running will now be stacking the damage, and speed running GR 65 in 2-3 minutes, rather then stacking XP to run GR 45 in 2-3 minutes.
Umm, no. XP gear results in a huge damage loss, always. XP gear is also greatly nerfed in 2.4 - Its fine solo, but it has practically no purpose in MP. The average is still there, so if you have 200% bonus xp, and in a 2 player rift, your partner has no bonus XP, then both players will have 100%, and THEN you take 1/10th of that and thats your actual bonus XP for multiplayer, which will be 10% bonus XP, in exchange for a HUGE hit to damage.Currently, most builds can go with a Leorics Crown because there are very few competing slots for gear there. In 2.4, blizzard has added a HUGE number of supporting legendaries to virtually ALL builds, so Leorics crown now competes with at least 2 items that will result in either a huge defensive boost (In the range of 50% less damage taken), or a huge offensive boost (25% extra damage done generally).
Using 3 piece Cains/Borns is trash in a group in 2.4. Using Hellfire/Leorics is trash in a group in 2.4. There are SO many additional options that if you use those pieces while grouping, you are essentially dragging the entire group down with NO extra benefit.
Of course, in TX, high-paragon players may continue to use a few +XP gear as their defensive/offensive stats are already so high that things die with one hit even if you use Gems of Ease, so if you are already doing 130% overkill in most situations and you can stand in the middle of the arcane sentry without worrying about dieing, you might as well drop your toughness/damage in half and pick up 10% extra xp bonus (Because in a group, thats all you are gonna get). But speed-running will now be stacking the damage, and speed running GR 65 in 2-3 minutes, rather then stacking XP to run GR 45 in 2-3 minutes.
lol, no. Damage is increasing 50-100% in new patch, making group easier to use XP items instead of tank or dmg items. Just watch
Are you unable to read? XP items require a LARGE loss in damage. Yes, baseline skill damage, AND set damage is increasing by ranges of 30% increased damage in some cases, to increases of roughly 600% in others. However, to pick up XP items will require a loss in key multiplier items - Focus and Restraint provide a 125% damage boost - Essentially, if you are going Hellfire/Leorics instead of F/R, or other damage rings (Oculus has been increased to 80% damage buff, and theres always the good Convention), you are essentially cutting your damage in HALF, in exchange for providing a 4 player group 1.9% more XP! (75%(best XP rolls)/4=18.75%, and that divided by 10 due to the new group XP share mechanics = 1.9% XP for your other partners, in exchange for halving your damage output!
And then we have to take into account the fact that bonus XP isn't multiplicative, its additive - So in a run where you would get 10 million xp, you now get only an extra 19k xp. Thats not even a drop in the bucket! So, its overall worthless. Equiping Cains/Borns, ect puts you in a similar boat. First, you have to drop Oculus, which is basically the default ring to cube for most builds (Convention/Zodiac/RoRG for a very few specific builds), so thats basically a loss of 80% damage from having to go to RoRG. You also lose the ability to go for some of the new smexy specific pieces, such as the new DH helmet that causes Vengeance (Which is mandatory for M6/UH builds, and extremely good for Nats/SW builds) to automatically have its 50% toughness so you could get the 10 hatred/second glyph. Theres examples of supporting legendaries for EVERY build you can't grab if you use Borns/Cains.
So, really, the only XP bonus item people can go for now without gimping their group is Ruby in the helm - And even then you are only providing the group with a 1% XP bonus increase, which, as I've stated, is useless. Its only use is the fact that it boosts yourself, and even then - You'll need a bit over 4k paragon levels to see a SINGLE extra level due to the extra XP it provides you with. Considering that a Diamond/Amethyst will allow you to do an extra GR lvl or two, well, its easy to see that picking those gems and running a slightly higher GR will net you FAR more Plvls then going with a Ruby.
As stated, the ONLY usefulness of XP gear is when you are running Bounties/Rifts, and the damage bonus from your baseline 6 piece is SO high that you have a few hundred % overkill so you can go ahead and lose your rings and swap over to 2 piece cains+RoRG in the cube+Leorics helm in cube w/Ruby. All those bonuses combined will give you 206% extra XP, which is an increase of about 6-10% overall XP gain while running Bounties/Rifts, so you will see a noticable difference.
However, it remains that the amount of XP you gain from running as high GRs as you can run at a decent rate will yield FAR more XP then running TX Rifts/Bounties ever could. With all the extra damage AND toughness coming in 2.4, most players will see themselves able to do GRs 20 lvls higher than before. So, the only point to running Rifts is to get keys for GRifts, and the only point to running Bounties is to get Cubed.
So, no. The current Meta of 2 XP zdps, 2 dps speed running lower lvl GRifts for XP is DEAD. Instead, we will see groups of 3 dps, and 1 support dps who is in the range of 80% of the other 3, running 2-3 minute runs through GRifts 55-75 for farm/XP, with progression being towards 90-100. Rifts/Bounties will be dead for XP gain until Blizzard implements both TX1-TXX(Or higher), AND fixes the XP bonus provided by Torment levels to be equivalent to that of XP bonus provided by the same lvl GR (GR offers higher XP gains per lvl compared to the equivalent Torment lvl at GR 25. GR 45 yields approxmiately 75% extra XP than TX.)
If your non-exp support gear results in your party doing the same GR about 1 minute faster or a higher GR in less than 1 minute total time, your entire party will benefit over full exp support gear. It's pretty simple, like Okakeri and MeatHeadMikhail pointed out, there needs to be a large amount of waste before exp gear actually becomes efficient.
Phillippos, regarding your argument that 'damage is easier', it's baseless because you are not considering opportunity cost for the support. Supports could keep running the exp, but they could also take advantage of the bigger damage, defense, and utility options as well and make the party more efficient.
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Now, in 2.4, we are having 2 very large changes - Only 1/10th of XP bonuses is shared, mob health whenever you are in 1-3 player difficulties have been reduced (To the point that 3 players will be reaching 2 or so GRs higher than 4 players).
The XP bonus change murdered and buried XP zdps. You will no longer use Hellfire/Leorics in serious progression, and Cain's is now a more personal item you sub in for farming to somewhat increase the amount of XP you get.
As for zdps, the primary characteristic of zdps is that they forgo the main set damage bonus in exchange for multiple support pieces. In the era of CC zdps, zdps, rather then grabbing 6/4 piece, would instead grab as many CC pieces as possible. With XP zdps, they would forgo set bonuses entirely and instead grab as many +xp pieces as possible, with a few group support legs (Strongarm, Pride).
I predict that in 2.4, you will not see a SINGLE player at the top leaderboards without their 6 piece, which automatically makes them non-zdps. Instead, you will have certain players in that group who sacrifice, say, 20-30% of their damage to pick up a few group support abilities. Thus, you'll have 2 players doing about 36% of the groups dps each, and one player doing 28% but providing a good 40% or so extra toughness/healing. I also predict that the 4 player leaderboard will be behind the 3 player leaderboard, so people seriously pushing greater rifts will push 3 player GRs, but for xp and such you'll go with 4 player speed runs 20 or so lvls behind your max possible GR lvl.
I hope you're right, in 2.3 people predicted more 'hybrid-dps' builds and less exp-support ones due to the exp 'nerf' of sharing exp around the group, and look what happened...This is a huge nail in the coffin though for at least exp-support.
I'm hoping hybrid toons will be more popular but I'm thinking zdps will remain because to support properly you need to dedicate a whole skill and item build. Look at the new heal monks; it's a very specific item build that requires gear almost as specific as DPSers (secondary resist, secondary health globes, cooldown reduction, life per second, and life on hit are all mandatory almost everywhere you can get it). If a barb gives up marauder's cry that alone reduces damage over 30%, and in order to support properly that barb will likely have to give up more than just that skill.
Anyway, we'll see. I personally like pure support; I wish they made sets to 'support' them.
Umm, no. XP gear results in a huge damage loss, always. XP gear is also greatly nerfed in 2.4 - Its fine solo, but it has practically no purpose in MP. The average is still there, so if you have 200% bonus xp, and in a 2 player rift, your partner has no bonus XP, then both players will have 100%, and THEN you take 1/10th of that and thats your actual bonus XP for multiplayer, which will be 10% bonus XP, in exchange for a HUGE hit to damage.Currently, most builds can go with a Leorics Crown because there are very few competing slots for gear there. In 2.4, blizzard has added a HUGE number of supporting legendaries to virtually ALL builds, so Leorics crown now competes with at least 2 items that will result in either a huge defensive boost (In the range of 50% less damage taken), or a huge offensive boost (25% extra damage done generally).
Using 3 piece Cains/Borns is trash in a group in 2.4. Using Hellfire/Leorics is trash in a group in 2.4. There are SO many additional options that if you use those pieces while grouping, you are essentially dragging the entire group down with NO extra benefit.
Of course, in TX, high-paragon players may continue to use a few +XP gear as their defensive/offensive stats are already so high that things die with one hit even if you use Gems of Ease, so if you are already doing 130% overkill in most situations and you can stand in the middle of the arcane sentry without worrying about dieing, you might as well drop your toughness/damage in half and pick up 10% extra xp bonus (Because in a group, thats all you are gonna get). But speed-running will now be stacking the damage, and speed running GR 65 in 2-3 minutes, rather then stacking XP to run GR 45 in 2-3 minutes.
It's going to be about as useful as magic find now, which is ok. The 3 support speed farming meta is beyond stupid.
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RIP Static Charge
and
RIP exp support meta
Thx Blizzard for that (RIP exp support meta),
Are you unable to read? XP items require a LARGE loss in damage. Yes, baseline skill damage, AND set damage is increasing by ranges of 30% increased damage in some cases, to increases of roughly 600% in others. However, to pick up XP items will require a loss in key multiplier items - Focus and Restraint provide a 125% damage boost - Essentially, if you are going Hellfire/Leorics instead of F/R, or other damage rings (Oculus has been increased to 80% damage buff, and theres always the good Convention), you are essentially cutting your damage in HALF, in exchange for providing a 4 player group 1.9% more XP! (75%(best XP rolls)/4=18.75%, and that divided by 10 due to the new group XP share mechanics = 1.9% XP for your other partners, in exchange for halving your damage output!
And then we have to take into account the fact that bonus XP isn't multiplicative, its additive - So in a run where you would get 10 million xp, you now get only an extra 19k xp. Thats not even a drop in the bucket! So, its overall worthless. Equiping Cains/Borns, ect puts you in a similar boat. First, you have to drop Oculus, which is basically the default ring to cube for most builds (Convention/Zodiac/RoRG for a very few specific builds), so thats basically a loss of 80% damage from having to go to RoRG. You also lose the ability to go for some of the new smexy specific pieces, such as the new DH helmet that causes Vengeance (Which is mandatory for M6/UH builds, and extremely good for Nats/SW builds) to automatically have its 50% toughness so you could get the 10 hatred/second glyph. Theres examples of supporting legendaries for EVERY build you can't grab if you use Borns/Cains.
So, really, the only XP bonus item people can go for now without gimping their group is Ruby in the helm - And even then you are only providing the group with a 1% XP bonus increase, which, as I've stated, is useless. Its only use is the fact that it boosts yourself, and even then - You'll need a bit over 4k paragon levels to see a SINGLE extra level due to the extra XP it provides you with. Considering that a Diamond/Amethyst will allow you to do an extra GR lvl or two, well, its easy to see that picking those gems and running a slightly higher GR will net you FAR more Plvls then going with a Ruby.
As stated, the ONLY usefulness of XP gear is when you are running Bounties/Rifts, and the damage bonus from your baseline 6 piece is SO high that you have a few hundred % overkill so you can go ahead and lose your rings and swap over to 2 piece cains+RoRG in the cube+Leorics helm in cube w/Ruby. All those bonuses combined will give you 206% extra XP, which is an increase of about 6-10% overall XP gain while running Bounties/Rifts, so you will see a noticable difference.
However, it remains that the amount of XP you gain from running as high GRs as you can run at a decent rate will yield FAR more XP then running TX Rifts/Bounties ever could. With all the extra damage AND toughness coming in 2.4, most players will see themselves able to do GRs 20 lvls higher than before. So, the only point to running Rifts is to get keys for GRifts, and the only point to running Bounties is to get Cubed.
So, no. The current Meta of 2 XP zdps, 2 dps speed running lower lvl GRifts for XP is DEAD. Instead, we will see groups of 3 dps, and 1 support dps who is in the range of 80% of the other 3, running 2-3 minute runs through GRifts 55-75 for farm/XP, with progression being towards 90-100. Rifts/Bounties will be dead for XP gain until Blizzard implements both TX1-TXX(Or higher), AND fixes the XP bonus provided by Torment levels to be equivalent to that of XP bonus provided by the same lvl GR (GR offers higher XP gains per lvl compared to the equivalent Torment lvl at GR 25. GR 45 yields approxmiately 75% extra XP than TX.)
Basically in 2.4...
If your non-exp support gear results in your party doing the same GR about 1 minute faster or a higher GR in less than 1 minute total time, your entire party will benefit over full exp support gear. It's pretty simple, like Okakeri and MeatHeadMikhail pointed out, there needs to be a large amount of waste before exp gear actually becomes efficient.
Phillippos, regarding your argument that 'damage is easier', it's baseless because you are not considering opportunity cost for the support. Supports could keep running the exp, but they could also take advantage of the bigger damage, defense, and utility options as well and make the party more efficient.