I sporadically play and am not terribly familiar with the changes in the meta. I see that no top builds in DiabloFans are support based ones except for monk / barb.
What is the most popular group meta now for pushing GRs? Are heal monks and zbarbs pretty much required now or are hybrid (dps / survival) groups more common?
Are any other supports besides monks / barbs popular in this patch?
I can't select ANY Crusader Seeker of the Light set items. I tried making a new build and it still didn't work. I also cannot select Johanna's Argument in the cube nor Hammer Jammers.
I haven't played Diablo III for a while. What supports were the most popular in 2.4.0? Do you think this will change much in 2.4.1?
Also, which supports are the easiest to prep for? I don't have a lot of time so going support is usually the best and easiest way for me to contribute to teams.
If your non-exp support gear results in your party doing the same GR about 1 minute faster or a higher GR in less than 1 minute total time, your entire party will benefit over full exp support gear. It's pretty simple, like Okakeri and MeatHeadMikhail pointed out, there needs to be a large amount of waste before exp gear actually becomes efficient.
Phillippos, regarding your argument that 'damage is easier', it's baseless because you are not considering opportunity cost for the support. Supports could keep running the exp, but they could also take advantage of the bigger damage, defense, and utility options as well and make the party more efficient.
So in short, Gem of Ease and + Exp secondary affix is good for non-GRs as it is multiplied by both difficulty factor + bonus % factor. In GRs, only the bonus % is used, which is negligible compared to the difficulty factor.
Funny how people demand the gem of ease on support characters in GRs; people have left the game and waste time trying to find a different group simply because the support doesn't have a gem of ease in their weapon, as if this is some enormous bonus. It's basically just one monster kill more per GR.
So I take it + Exp will be useless in 2.4 as this also will be nerfed to 10% right?
I hope you're right, in 2.3 people predicted more 'hybrid-dps' builds and less exp-support ones due to the exp 'nerf' of sharing exp around the group, and look what happened...This is a huge nail in the coffin though for at least exp-support.
I'm hoping hybrid toons will be more popular but I'm thinking zdps will remain because to support properly you need to dedicate a whole skill and item build. Look at the new heal monks; it's a very specific item build that requires gear almost as specific as DPSers (secondary resist, secondary health globes, cooldown reduction, life per second, and life on hit are all mandatory almost everywhere you can get it). If a barb gives up marauder's cry that alone reduces damage over 30%, and in order to support properly that barb will likely have to give up more than just that skill.
Anyway, we'll see. I personally like pure support; I wish they made sets to 'support' them.
Its going to be useless at lvl 70 anyways with the 10% reduction ie: cains will give 5% more exp at 70
5% for xp farmers earning over a trillion XP/day means hundreds of billions of XP over the course of days. Again, the changes are relative. So long as xp bonuses exist on gear relative to gear with no bonuses, the % values are equally attractive
The question you need to ask yourself is that is the 5% xp worth it if you can just as easily run 1+ GR levels higher with a different gem, rings, etc...
Because if you can only run one GR higher, then you get more XP than the 5%
but you wouldn't get higher without xp gear. only zDPS supports wear that xp gear. as long as they can have their support legendaries AND the xp equip, there will be no reason not to wear xp equip. it doesn't matter if it only gives 5 or 50%. the value only matters to those who are not using it, since they'll always lose out on xp. it just doesn't feel so punishing with 5%
It does matter if it's 5% or 50%, that statement asssumes nothing can be done with alternatives, or that there are no viable opportunity costs. So many options open up when you remove the mandatory requirement for exp gear. Borns (2) + Cains (2) + Hellfire / Leorics (1-2) + mandatory RoRG (1) open up, which is about 5 - 7 item slots, not to mention the Helm Gem Socket and Weapon Socket. Think of what you can accomplish with this. Supports will be able to add additional utility and toughness to their builds or even do some kind of hybrid support / dps setup. If each support's non-exp gear will help the party do current GRs more than 5% quicker or make one higher GR possible it will be just as good or better than exp gear.
Also, on a different note, I don't see why 4 DPS would ever be viable. Supports offer so much more than exp to the party as others pointed out. Creating mass alone speeds up rifts dramatically
Maybe they'll still be used but for lower GRs because you don't need optimized gear to do it?
Basically if gear will help clear rifts faster or higher rifts, then xp gear will not be very valuable.
If gear will not help clear rifts faster or do higher rifts, then xp gear will still be useful.
The only case I see this for is supports doing a much lower GR than they can normally support, or for super farmed DPSers doing speed rifts and have zero need for the purple gem in helm.
I'm not very familiar with the trends in the 2.4 PTR. Do you guys foresee XP Support gear (Born's, Cain's, Hellfire Ring, Leoric's Ring, Gems of Ease, etc) still being practically mandatory for support builds or is this fading away due to the huge nerfs?
I see a lot of people with socketed Gems of Ease on support characters. Are we positive this is shared with the party like % experience is? Everyone seems to think this but do we have a source? I thought that % experience was the only thing shared with the team, not + Monster Kill Experience.
XP change is great in my opinion because now everyone, including supports, can focus on gear optimization instead of xp and simply try to do higher GRs more efficiently to compensate for the measly few % a xp build will give. Now an xp build of 200% bonus exp will result in 20% which will be divided 4 ways so 5% only per player instead of 50% previously. A ruby in a helm will result in only 1% bonus exp per player now; it's just not worth it anymore. Simply doing one GR higher due to more optimized gear will more than compensate for this change due to the changes in the system.
4 dps seems unlikely except for speed GRs where survivability doesn't matter. Maybe we'll see more hybrid balanced characters pop up. Maybe a standard 1 support / 3 dps or 1 support + 1 balanced + 2 dps or something...
There will always be that one 'best' build in general for each class, but things are not nearly as bad as Quin is saying. The reality is not all of us will get the perfect gear setup so we have to modify the 'best' item build for every class we play along with the skills.
For example, if you look at the Some Page Diablo site for Most Popular Crusader Builds, you'll see that for the #1 build for the top 25% of Crusaders it says "This (skill) build is used by 2.85% of the Top 25% of Crusaders. Including the Build Variants, it is used by 3.55%. The #2 build = 7.56%, the #3 build = 2.92%, the #4 build = 1.75%, and the #5 build = 1.14%. So the top five Softcore Crusader builds for the top 25% of all Softcore Crusaders, including all popular variants, only comes to 16.92%. This means that 83.08% of the top 25% of Softcore Crusaders use other builds and build variants that are not popular enough to get noticed.
I did a little Crusader test a little while ago on my non-season account and pushed the highest rift I could with each of the three sets. I did an old school Akkhan Vacuum build, Shield Bash Roland build, and a few Seeker of the Light variants. All of the gear is more or less similar in quality, mostly ancient with some very nicely rolled normal legendaries in the mix. The results were only three GRs variance, with SotL coming out on top, followed by Roland, followed by Akkhan. This wasn't a hugely scientific study but the differences are there, yes, but not terribly drastic.
So yes, it still matters greatly what actually drops for you. Everyone has to tweak the popular builds with what works for their items' strengths and weaknesses as well as their play style. The stats show that itemization and skill usage has a lot of variance and diversity.
Based on what we currently know, which is subject to change of course, will previous season 'conqueror' achievements contribute to the 10 stash tab maximum? Or will this only affect season 5 onward?
From what I have read, it seems that this is NOT a retroactive change and will only affect season 5 onward 'conqueror' achievements, so it will take another 4 seasons, including season 5, before ANYONE gets 10 stash tabs (6 gold purchased tabs + 1 season 5 + 1 season 6 + 1 season 7 + 1 season 8).
0
I sporadically play and am not terribly familiar with the changes in the meta. I see that no top builds in DiabloFans are support based ones except for monk / barb.
What is the most popular group meta now for pushing GRs? Are heal monks and zbarbs pretty much required now or are hybrid (dps / survival) groups more common?
Are any other supports besides monks / barbs popular in this patch?
Thanks in advance for your insights and feedback!
1
I can't select ANY Crusader Seeker of the Light set items. I tried making a new build and it still didn't work. I also cannot select Johanna's Argument in the cube nor Hammer Jammers.
0
I haven't played Diablo III for a while. What supports were the most popular in 2.4.0? Do you think this will change much in 2.4.1?
Also, which supports are the easiest to prep for? I don't have a lot of time so going support is usually the best and easiest way for me to contribute to teams.
0
Basically in 2.4...
If your non-exp support gear results in your party doing the same GR about 1 minute faster or a higher GR in less than 1 minute total time, your entire party will benefit over full exp support gear. It's pretty simple, like Okakeri and MeatHeadMikhail pointed out, there needs to be a large amount of waste before exp gear actually becomes efficient.
Phillippos, regarding your argument that 'damage is easier', it's baseless because you are not considering opportunity cost for the support. Supports could keep running the exp, but they could also take advantage of the bigger damage, defense, and utility options as well and make the party more efficient.
0
So in short, Gem of Ease and + Exp secondary affix is good for non-GRs as it is multiplied by both difficulty factor + bonus % factor. In GRs, only the bonus % is used, which is negligible compared to the difficulty factor.
Funny how people demand the gem of ease on support characters in GRs; people have left the game and waste time trying to find a different group simply because the support doesn't have a gem of ease in their weapon, as if this is some enormous bonus. It's basically just one monster kill more per GR.
So I take it + Exp will be useless in 2.4 as this also will be nerfed to 10% right?
0
I hope you're right, in 2.3 people predicted more 'hybrid-dps' builds and less exp-support ones due to the exp 'nerf' of sharing exp around the group, and look what happened...This is a huge nail in the coffin though for at least exp-support.
I'm hoping hybrid toons will be more popular but I'm thinking zdps will remain because to support properly you need to dedicate a whole skill and item build. Look at the new heal monks; it's a very specific item build that requires gear almost as specific as DPSers (secondary resist, secondary health globes, cooldown reduction, life per second, and life on hit are all mandatory almost everywhere you can get it). If a barb gives up marauder's cry that alone reduces damage over 30%, and in order to support properly that barb will likely have to give up more than just that skill.
Anyway, we'll see. I personally like pure support; I wish they made sets to 'support' them.
0
Bump....anyone have an answer? Has this been tested or confirmed?
0
It does matter if it's 5% or 50%, that statement asssumes nothing can be done with alternatives, or that there are no viable opportunity costs. So many options open up when you remove the mandatory requirement for exp gear. Borns (2) + Cains (2) + Hellfire / Leorics (1-2) + mandatory RoRG (1) open up, which is about 5 - 7 item slots, not to mention the Helm Gem Socket and Weapon Socket. Think of what you can accomplish with this. Supports will be able to add additional utility and toughness to their builds or even do some kind of hybrid support / dps setup. If each support's non-exp gear will help the party do current GRs more than 5% quicker or make one higher GR possible it will be just as good or better than exp gear.
Also, on a different note, I don't see why 4 DPS would ever be viable. Supports offer so much more than exp to the party as others pointed out. Creating mass alone speeds up rifts dramatically
1
T10 farming % xp isn't multiplicative, only in GRs, so it's nearly worthless getting xp gear for anything but GRs.
0
Maybe they'll still be used but for lower GRs because you don't need optimized gear to do it?
Basically if gear will help clear rifts faster or higher rifts, then xp gear will not be very valuable.
If gear will not help clear rifts faster or do higher rifts, then xp gear will still be useful.
The only case I see this for is supports doing a much lower GR than they can normally support, or for super farmed DPSers doing speed rifts and have zero need for the purple gem in helm.
0
I'm not very familiar with the trends in the 2.4 PTR. Do you guys foresee XP Support gear (Born's, Cain's, Hellfire Ring, Leoric's Ring, Gems of Ease, etc) still being practically mandatory for support builds or is this fading away due to the huge nerfs?
0
I see a lot of people with socketed Gems of Ease on support characters. Are we positive this is shared with the party like % experience is? Everyone seems to think this but do we have a source? I thought that % experience was the only thing shared with the team, not + Monster Kill Experience.
Anyone have an answer?
0
XP change is great in my opinion because now everyone, including supports, can focus on gear optimization instead of xp and simply try to do higher GRs more efficiently to compensate for the measly few % a xp build will give. Now an xp build of 200% bonus exp will result in 20% which will be divided 4 ways so 5% only per player instead of 50% previously. A ruby in a helm will result in only 1% bonus exp per player now; it's just not worth it anymore. Simply doing one GR higher due to more optimized gear will more than compensate for this change due to the changes in the system.
4 dps seems unlikely except for speed GRs where survivability doesn't matter. Maybe we'll see more hybrid balanced characters pop up. Maybe a standard 1 support / 3 dps or 1 support + 1 balanced + 2 dps or something...
0
There will always be that one 'best' build in general for each class, but things are not nearly as bad as Quin is saying. The reality is not all of us will get the perfect gear setup so we have to modify the 'best' item build for every class we play along with the skills.
For example, if you look at the Some Page Diablo site for Most Popular Crusader Builds, you'll see that for the #1 build for the top 25% of Crusaders it says "This (skill) build is used by 2.85% of the Top 25% of Crusaders. Including the Build Variants, it is used by 3.55%. The #2 build = 7.56%, the #3 build = 2.92%, the #4 build = 1.75%, and the #5 build = 1.14%. So the top five Softcore Crusader builds for the top 25% of all Softcore Crusaders, including all popular variants, only comes to 16.92%. This means that 83.08% of the top 25% of Softcore Crusaders use other builds and build variants that are not popular enough to get noticed.
I did a little Crusader test a little while ago on my non-season account and pushed the highest rift I could with each of the three sets. I did an old school Akkhan Vacuum build, Shield Bash Roland build, and a few Seeker of the Light variants. All of the gear is more or less similar in quality, mostly ancient with some very nicely rolled normal legendaries in the mix. The results were only three GRs variance, with SotL coming out on top, followed by Roland, followed by Akkhan. This wasn't a hugely scientific study but the differences are there, yes, but not terribly drastic.
So yes, it still matters greatly what actually drops for you. Everyone has to tweak the popular builds with what works for their items' strengths and weaknesses as well as their play style. The stats show that itemization and skill usage has a lot of variance and diversity.
0
Based on what we currently know, which is subject to change of course, will previous season 'conqueror' achievements contribute to the 10 stash tab maximum? Or will this only affect season 5 onward?
From what I have read, it seems that this is NOT a retroactive change and will only affect season 5 onward 'conqueror' achievements, so it will take another 4 seasons, including season 5, before ANYONE gets 10 stash tabs (6 gold purchased tabs + 1 season 5 + 1 season 6 + 1 season 7 + 1 season 8).
Is this the general understanding at this point?