But yes, corruption is not a problem in relation to capitalism.
It is a problem altogether. Socialist states had a lot more corruption than developed capitalist states have. I totally agree that it should be combated, like I said.
"Real" Socialist States don't exist. In most cases they start like one and end up being a "fancy" dictatorship. Which pretty much requires quite a few corrupt officials to happen.
The problem is that "wealth" is not finite. It is created and destroyed all the time. It is in constant momentum. Therefore the wealth of the rich is not anything away from the poor.
In fact, historically speaking (that's the only data available on these matters), when the rich have been doing well, all the other people have followed and the society as a whole has gotten richer.
Perhaps it used to be like this. Before Globalization hit us. Now people take their money where there's less taxes, meaning less social services for the "not so rich" and less income for the country too. Which can lead to something similar to what's happening in Greece. If you add the corruption of the government.
PS. Germany won't be able to take care of it and keep the European economy up, btw. Germany still owes their loans from shortly after World War II to Greece, aswell as compensation for the casualties. Which is more than Greece owes to the international banks. Yet they refuse to pay. Because probably then they'd have to stop being "smart" saying "Greece should sell their islands" and they'd have to sell Bavaria to get the money needed.
Germany is such a large economy that they can most definitely keep the German banks up. However, the default of PIGS would probably cause havoc elsewhere. The current crisis is more of a crisis of EMU than EU.
Here's a quote, which to the best of my knowledge is true:
German foreign ministry spokesman Andreas Peschke dismissed the comments, adding that "a discussion about the past is not helpful at all to solve [today's] problems."
He said Germany had paid compensation to Greece of some 115 million deutsche marks by 1960 and subsequently made further payments to forced laborers of the Nazi regime.
"I'd like to mention that parallel to this, since 1960 Germany has paid around 33 billion deutsche marks in aid to Greece both bilaterally and in the context of the EU," he said. Germans received roughly one euro for every two deutsche marks when the notes changed over in 2002.
The reason why World War II ignited was because after WW I Germany had been faced with impossible compensatory amounts, mostly due to the demands of France. They would've taken a hundred years to pay back and Germany today would be no different from Romania with that great an economic hindrance.
The winners of WW II realized this and decided that Germany paid for its wrongdoings with the loss of millions and near total annihilation of the entire country by the allied forces. They of course agreed on some compensation, but since almost everyone responsible for the Nazi regime was dead, they agreed on compensation that was partial to the actual damages.
Sad, but reality dictated that so.
With the difference that what Germany paid, wasn't "repaid" per se. It was loans that add to Greece's debts. Those loans right after WWII were never repaid. And as you know, 115 million deutsche Mark back then was worth more than it did 2002. And it's not "i give you this, you pay me back with the same amount when you have it". That's not how loans work.
What's also an issue are companies based in Germany (Siemens was the most recent) buying off greek officials to build on the country's communication network, charging double and triple the amounts they should. And the greek citizens had to pay for it. Again. Not to mention those german submarines the greek navy bought that aren't balanced... and they're not taking back or repairing for any reason...
Ok so how do we fix corruption? It happens everywhere (definitely worse in some countries though). I don't think it can be fixed until some genius comes up with a better government.
human's by nature are selfish therefore united we will fail
No statement could be as wrong as this (ok, perhaps there could be some, but still...).
Humans would never have survived alone in nature because they're weaker than every other predator. We got no claws, no fangs, our sense of smell isn't good enough, same for hearing, our physical strength isn't that much of a strength and our skin is quite soft aswell. Had we not had our brains that allowed us to invent complicated ways to communicate and coordinate with each other, we'd never have survived. Then we went ahead using that brain to invent more and more tools. And that was working in groups. Had it not been this way there wouldn't have been settlements and cities since 20000 b.C.
Ok so how do we fix corruption? It happens everywhere (definitely worse in some countries though). I don't think it can be fixed until some genius comes up with a better government.
Actually we were joking about this with a few friends. If you really overpay (I really mean overpay) the people from the justice department that check everyone for fraud and other illegal activities, you got yourself the only relatively safe way to actually punish those who serve their own agendas.
human's by nature are selfish therefore united we will fail
No statement could be as wrong as this (ok, perhaps there could be some, but still...).
Humans would never have survived alone in nature because they're weaker than every other predator. We got no claws, no fangs, our sense of smell isn't good enough, same for hearing, our physical strength isn't that much of a strength and our skin is quite soft aswell. Had we not had our brains that allowed us to invent complicated ways to communicate and coordinate with each other, we'd never have survived. Then we went ahead using that brain to invent more and more tools. And that was working in groups. Had it not been this way there wouldn't have been settlements and cities since 20000 b.C.
Cooperation is possible even while being greedy and selfish.
In groups it was just shown in inter-group relationships. Archeology has shown that humans fought not just other human groups but the Neanderthals. As hunter/gatherers resources were so limited that sometimes survival of your own group required killing or evicting the other tribe from your area.
Generally selfishness doesn't show as "me me me!" (that's just being antisocial), but favoring oneself and their immediate family, loved ones and friends over perfect strangers. In that form it's definitely a standard characteristic of human nature.
I mean take a poll of a fictional situation where one had two options:
Save your immediate relative (say mother, sibling, loved one)
Save two complete strangers you don't know or haven't met before.
Most humans will choose option 1. I know, it's heartbreaking, but it's perfectly rational.
Actually we were joking about this with a few friends. If you really overpay (I really mean overpay) the people from the justice department that check everyone for fraud and other illegal activities, you got yourself the only relatively safe way to actually punish those who serve their own agendas.
And doing jail when they are caught, of course.
That's not a bad idea. Another one is to build a multi-layered "consciousness" into the justice system. Generally for example police forces have the internal investigation which in a perfectly working system prosecutes the crooked cops out of the system.
Finland (+ other similar countries of low corruption) generally rely on a powerful justice system. Strict rules regarding conflict of interest are necessary. That is, people in places of great official power can't make decisions where they have a personal interest. Breaking that code results in immense public shame and quite often prison time.
So we agree on both parts. What i disagreed on (in the part quoted) was the "united we fail". It's exactly the opposite. We may be gaining benefits ourselves, but we wouldn't have done it by ourselves, that's the point. The quote pretty much describes someone who is antisocial.
Actually we were joking about this with a few friends. If you really overpay (I really mean overpay) the people from the justice department that check everyone for fraud and other illegal activities, you got yourself the only relatively safe way to actually punish those who serve their own agendas.
And doing jail when they are caught, of course.
And then we have overpaid officials taking extra bribes from the corrupt. There's always bad eggs in society and they don't always get caught. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but corruption is always going to rise and adapt to new laws.
On an unrelated note, the power sub-station near my apartment caught on fire after an explosion this morning.
Despite how silly all this is, I have to admit it crossed my mind that maybe these mixed-up revolutionary wannabes actually did something
Then my power came back, because we live in a society where horrible explosions (with enormous smoke plumes I could see from miles off) don't keep people off the internet for more than a few hours
Did you hear what they did to HBGary? Apparently the CEO wanted to destroy Anonymous, so Anonymous hacked the company and released compromising information about the CEO that forced the company to let him go.
Lemme say that again, Anonymous, a loose collection of hackers hacked a tech security company that is employed by the government.
One more time, just to make sure everyone understands, five year olds hacked a tech security company employed by the government.
I was born five years after a decade of state terrorism ended in my country, it was 28 years ago, and this is the longest period of democracy in history of this country. It's truly heart breaking to hear the stories of people running away from the military and leaving their loved ones to die because they took a bullet on the run, or your father talking about hearing bombs and screams in the night and having to walk in the middle of the street and not looking to the sides because he may end killed or tortured if he did. Ten years ago we had such a messed up government that we ended up having seven different presidents in two weeks, three valid pseudo-currencies and half the population living on a barter based economy in XXI century.
And somehow we managed to make it through, when you live history instead of watching it over the news then you can understand the depth and necessity of being united and collective and cooperative action. It's not a matter of capitalism vs socialism or abstract political theories, it's about identity and solidarity.
I don't know if anonymous, lulzsec or any of this groups are going to be good in the long term, but I'm sure it's important for people to remember who the government responds to and that the power of "the people" is the power of all of us as a whole, not just the sum of our individual wills.
The "system" doesn't exist, nobody planned it and it works like it exist because we all respond to it as it was revealed by god, that's BS, but we can only change things for the better if we all become aware of the need of changing things and helping those who don't have it so easy and trying to make it better for all of us, not delegating everything to a bunch of people hoping they'll make things right, that's naive to say the least.
but we can only change things for the better if we all become aware of the need of changing things and helping those who don't have it so easy and trying to make it better for all of us, not delegating everything to a bunch of people hoping they'll make things right, that's naive to say the least.
Exactly nacho and that is exactly why I posted this. It is never a bad thing to research injustices within our society and in the government especially. If you don't agree that is your right and freedom, but knowledge and the pursuit of it is not illegal, it's our right to pursue the truth, no it's our obligation.
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.
The main things I agreed with in the video is to look for injustice, learn to be more self sufficient, and not rely on the government for everything, and personally I do think rights are being infringed upon.
The other parts, well I'm not a hacker so I'm obviously not going to attack government sites. etc.
You're right that brute force and riots will get us no where at this point and time, but civil disobedience and peaceful protest is nothing to be ashamed of or persecute.
Growing your own food is always a good idea. It's 100% organic, and always fresh.
It's generally a good idea to keep track of trends and sell/buy certain things at the right time so that once the "Oh crap!" comes around, you're ready. But that's as much all you can do.
@ Nacho
The system always exists.
The system is composed of people.
Society, essentially, is the system.
While certain societies and justice systems raise one's level of living to a certain extent, it's important to realize why things happen and what problems arise with them. Otherwise, people will stop improving it. And sometimes, it may flow into something like a 1984. As fictional as that scenario may be, a variation of it is not impossible. Sometimes, having good lives ourselves, we forget how others (the poor, for instance), live.
It's very important that there remain people who do not agree with the system and that they're allowed to exist. It's very important, in other words, that there remain people who break the law. Once we lose that, we are in huge trouble.
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"Real" Socialist States don't exist. In most cases they start like one and end up being a "fancy" dictatorship. Which pretty much requires quite a few corrupt officials to happen.
Perhaps it used to be like this. Before Globalization hit us. Now people take their money where there's less taxes, meaning less social services for the "not so rich" and less income for the country too. Which can lead to something similar to what's happening in Greece. If you add the corruption of the government.
PS. Germany won't be able to take care of it and keep the European economy up, btw. Germany still owes their loans from shortly after World War II to Greece, aswell as compensation for the casualties. Which is more than Greece owes to the international banks. Yet they refuse to pay. Because probably then they'd have to stop being "smart" saying "Greece should sell their islands" and they'd have to sell Bavaria to get the money needed.
Here's how you make them videos-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2AP0P5PVN8
With the difference that what Germany paid, wasn't "repaid" per se. It was loans that add to Greece's debts. Those loans right after WWII were never repaid. And as you know, 115 million deutsche Mark back then was worth more than it did 2002. And it's not "i give you this, you pay me back with the same amount when you have it". That's not how loans work.
What's also an issue are companies based in Germany (Siemens was the most recent) buying off greek officials to build on the country's communication network, charging double and triple the amounts they should. And the greek citizens had to pay for it. Again. Not to mention those german submarines the greek navy bought that aren't balanced... and they're not taking back or repairing for any reason...
There's more behind everything.
No statement could be as wrong as this (ok, perhaps there could be some, but still...).
Humans would never have survived alone in nature because they're weaker than every other predator. We got no claws, no fangs, our sense of smell isn't good enough, same for hearing, our physical strength isn't that much of a strength and our skin is quite soft aswell. Had we not had our brains that allowed us to invent complicated ways to communicate and coordinate with each other, we'd never have survived. Then we went ahead using that brain to invent more and more tools. And that was working in groups. Had it not been this way there wouldn't have been settlements and cities since 20000 b.C.
Actually we were joking about this with a few friends. If you really overpay (I really mean overpay) the people from the justice department that check everyone for fraud and other illegal activities, you got yourself the only relatively safe way to actually punish those who serve their own agendas.
And doing jail when they are caught, of course.
So we agree on both parts. What i disagreed on (in the part quoted) was the "united we fail". It's exactly the opposite. We may be gaining benefits ourselves, but we wouldn't have done it by ourselves, that's the point. The quote pretty much describes someone who is antisocial.
And then we have overpaid officials taking extra bribes from the corrupt. There's always bad eggs in society and they don't always get caught. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but corruption is always going to rise and adapt to new laws.
But the comments are a lot more interesting indeed!
Despite how silly all this is, I have to admit it crossed my mind that maybe these mixed-up revolutionary wannabes actually did something
Then my power came back, because we live in a society where horrible explosions (with enormous smoke plumes I could see from miles off) don't keep people off the internet for more than a few hours
Good luck trying to bring it down, nerds.
Nerds!?!?! Where?
Yup. They don't let people mess with wikileaks.
Lemme say that again, Anonymous, a loose collection of hackers hacked a tech security company that is employed by the government.
One more time, just to make sure everyone understands, five year olds hacked a tech security company employed by the government.
Don't. Fuck. With. Anonymous.
And somehow we managed to make it through, when you live history instead of watching it over the news then you can understand the depth and necessity of being united and collective and cooperative action. It's not a matter of capitalism vs socialism or abstract political theories, it's about identity and solidarity.
I don't know if anonymous, lulzsec or any of this groups are going to be good in the long term, but I'm sure it's important for people to remember who the government responds to and that the power of "the people" is the power of all of us as a whole, not just the sum of our individual wills.
The "system" doesn't exist, nobody planned it and it works like it exist because we all respond to it as it was revealed by god, that's BS, but we can only change things for the better if we all become aware of the need of changing things and helping those who don't have it so easy and trying to make it better for all of us, not delegating everything to a bunch of people hoping they'll make things right, that's naive to say the least.
Exactly nacho and that is exactly why I posted this. It is never a bad thing to research injustices within our society and in the government especially. If you don't agree that is your right and freedom, but knowledge and the pursuit of it is not illegal, it's our right to pursue the truth, no it's our obligation.
The other parts, well I'm not a hacker so I'm obviously not going to attack government sites. etc.
You're right that brute force and riots will get us no where at this point and time, but civil disobedience and peaceful protest is nothing to be ashamed of or persecute.
It's generally a good idea to keep track of trends and sell/buy certain things at the right time so that once the "Oh crap!" comes around, you're ready. But that's as much all you can do.
@ Nacho
The system always exists.
The system is composed of people.
Society, essentially, is the system.
While certain societies and justice systems raise one's level of living to a certain extent, it's important to realize why things happen and what problems arise with them. Otherwise, people will stop improving it. And sometimes, it may flow into something like a 1984. As fictional as that scenario may be, a variation of it is not impossible. Sometimes, having good lives ourselves, we forget how others (the poor, for instance), live.
It's very important that there remain people who do not agree with the system and that they're allowed to exist. It's very important, in other words, that there remain people who break the law. Once we lose that, we are in huge trouble.