Well, for me, the thing about free will is this: If there is anything in nature that occurs randomly, free will should exist in reality.
Whether it be the in between of physics and quantum physics or the location of an electron. If there is any randomness at all within the universe, then the argument for free will remains open. Or, the idea of randomness is nothing more than a paradoxical concept that doesn't actually exist in this universe which means time is irrelevant even on a human level and the idea that we are anything but a product of our environment is false. Who knows...
Either way, perception is still reality. So if you believe you have choice, then you do. After all, without our species a thing called a "word", a sound wave we make with our mouths that means something that is symbolic for something else, has no meaning.Because without us, the word "word" has no meaning. Or rather, without some conscious creature to understand it, it has no meaning. So, the idea of free will, without us doesn't matter either. So, being human, the one with a perception to understand the concept of free will defines what it is. We define what we choose to be and do.
And one of the main arguments I can think of with the above statement would be to target this sentence: "So if you believe you have choice, then you do."
And then respond with something like "What you believe doesn't define reality" and give an example like "If you were raised to believe the world was made of peanut butter and believed it with all your heart, it doesn't change the fact that you are 100% wrong."
And I would respond with: "To who? To who is that wrong? To someone else? Does someone else matter? To believe to have knowledge is the same thing as having knowledge by the perception of the individual with the belief. If you want to get into belief versus truth, then you are now dipping your foot into nothing but philosophy and metaphysics which will eventually lead you to the same answer I just provided."
And that's why I believe that the argument of whether we have free will or not is a bit irrelevant to "truth". Now, maybe you can come up with something else to argue the existence of free will. I'm sure something will be said for the sake of discussion. But as far as I can see( which isn't very far), it doesn't really matter. What is or is not free will, what is right or wrong, what does or does not "matter" doesn't matter. But if it does matter to you, then it does matter.
And with that I say CHEERS. Drunk Philosoraptor OUT.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Presumably we don't have to know, it's just designed to unfold.
Unfortunately, that's a fairly hard nail in the coffin of free-will. If everything operates on predetermined parameters, nobody is actually choosing to do anything and only exudes the illusion of free will as they "choose," the programmed response each and every time.
Figured we were due for another Umpa relativist drive-by.
Maintaining a persona is hard work. Gotta make the rounds.
But in all seriousness, normally I wouldn't have posted that because I know those ideas don't really interest you...but alcohol makes me social.
I donno...I just can't really shake these philosophies. I can't help but think things like that. It's how I view the world. From my point of view, whether free will is or is not an idea with a directly applicable "real" example doesn't matter.
And to be completely honest( and to give new light to the argument) the idea of "free will" is VERY philosophical in nature. Especially when you start to question it's nature and relativity to what REALLY is or is not existing. "Do we really choose things or is it just matter playing out what started at the big bang".
Your initial statement Proletaria was a statement suggesting that when all of the facts are analyzed, the nature of free will doesn't seem to exist.
And when I hear something like that, all I can think is "Exist? What IS existing?" Of course you can laugh this off and present my argument as a cliche philosophical over-examination. Hell, it can even be said I'm just some young college idiot exploring ideas that have already been explored for hundreds of years.
But to that, I can't help but think that we simply are not addressing the full scope of an idea like free will and what it really entails both as an existing or non existing thing in the universe that humans labeled, and as an idea that is completely imprisoned by our perception of it as it's creator.
Most peoples arguments refuting the worth in things like skepticism, to me seem like a giant ad hominem. Our presumed knowledge is held up by an incredibly strong infrastructure. Since recorded history, all of humanity almost works like one, giant brain. Past, recorded experiences solidify what they presume to be knowledge through both a sense of knowing via senses and a reassurance and reaffirmation of their senses through the perceived senses of others that they were told about and that they heard...via their senses.
Of course there is the age old question "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Which, with an real evaluation hints at my point. But, to do it one better:
If no creature is left to perceive an idea, is it an idea at all?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Vans is the original action sports footwear company grounded in youth, authenticity and individual style. Vans has been getting more and more popular, the last years. It is originally a skateboarding brand, but now anyone wears them. They are a real must have for sneaker freaks! Is there a color combination that you like, but is not available? Just design your own pair of Vans! Vans doesn’t ship outside the US but FromUS2EU can order them for you and gets it delivered at your doorstep. Don’t forget to order a pair of ‘Canoodle’ socks, they are just perfect for in your Vans!
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
i just dont think you understand the concept of free will. and its not just the christian god either, its any religion that empowers those traits on a deity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
i just dont think you understand the concept of free will. and its not just the christian god either, its any religion that empowers those traits on a deity.
Then explain to me how omnipotence and omnipresence without beneficence or any other factor affects the concept of a person's free will in any way.
Then explain to me how omnipotence and omnipresence without beneficence or any other factor affects the concept of a person's free will in any way.
Omnipotence. All powerful. They can do anything they want.
Omnipresence. Everywhere. They are everywhere all the time.
Either the deity cares and because he or she is all powerful, will make you do as they want, or they don't give a shit and it doesn't matter to us one way or the other if they exist.
(Or they care but are too damn lazy to do anything.)
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
i just dont think you understand the concept of free will. and its not just the christian god either, its any religion that empowers those traits on a deity.
Then explain to me how omnipotence and omnipresence without beneficence or any other factor affects the concept of a person's free will in any way.
the effect is inherent in the belief of an supreme being. if he is all knowing then he knows what you will experience in life. the god knows your future and what decisions you will already make - thus, leaving free will only an illusion to you since you cannot know your own future. and if he is not all knowing, then he is not a god that is all powerful - thus, he is not God.
5-0 gd.
whether you chose to believe in such a thing hardly matters to me since i prescribe to the belief that as humans, we dont really know what we want.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Neither in the definition of omnipotence or omnipresence suggest the idea of one who is "all-knowing," unless said being inherently wants to have that ability (being omnipotent) but as a lesser beings we can never know that now can we?
Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?
Neither in the definition of omnipotence or omnipresence suggest the idea of one who is "all-knowing," unless said being inherently wants to have that ability (being omnipotent) but as a lesser beings we can never know that now can we?
Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?
with omnipresence comes omniscience. either way, both are attributes of an omnipotent God.
and, if he does not know what path you will chose, then he is not a god, just an observer with limited power. im sure the catholic church, or any denomination by that matter, would not like to hear that about their alpha and omega.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Neither in the definition of omnipotence or omnipresence suggest the idea of one who is "all-knowing," unless said being inherently wants to have that ability (being omnipotent) but as a lesser beings we can never know that now can we?
Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?
with omnipresence comes omniscience. either way, both are attributes of an omnipotent God.
and, if he does not know what path you will chose, then he is not a god, just an observer with limited power. im sure the catholic church, or any denomination by that matter, would not like to hear that about their alpha and omega.
Or still has omnipotence but is apathetic for whatever reason, this also ties in with the "grand plan" mentioned earlier
There are possibilities. But until there is absolute proof that a supernatural force exists, one must assume that there is no God. There is no denying that it is an option, but everyone is at the same level until then.
There is no absolute proof that you yourself exists. To believe to know anything is a farce.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Neither in the definition of omnipotence or omnipresence suggest the idea of one who is "all-knowing," unless said being inherently wants to have that ability (being omnipotent) but as a lesser beings we can never know that now can we?
Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?
with omnipresence comes omniscience. either way, both are attributes of an omnipotent God.
and, if he does not know what path you will chose, then he is not a god, just an observer with limited power. im sure the catholic church, or any denomination by that matter, would not like to hear that about their alpha and omega.
Or still has omnipotence but is apathetic for whatever reason, this also ties in with the "grand plan" mentioned earlier
but apathy has no effect on omnipresence and omniscience. he still knows.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
I used to be obsessed about this whole subject but for now I realized that philosophizing about this is pretty much pointless. No matter how long you talk to yourself or with people, everyone is still at the same position about this deity figure. He can be all loving or a complete asshole. No one knows.
Until then, we are at the same level as accepting possibilities about deities but we must assume that there is not.
We are not forced to make any assumptions. We can do and believe in whatever we desire.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
We are not forced to make any assumptions. We can do and believe in whatever we desire.
So do so. I don't care. You can believe that Red Skull coughed up dyslexic NASCAR drivers that shitted out the universe. But if you honestly want to believe that, be prepared to not be taken seriously in the academic field.
Haha. Oh the prestige of the academic world. If only I could attain such a level of knowledge.
And for the record, any assumptions are looked down upon in the ACADEMIC FIELD. You can do nothing but claim ignorance as Proletaria pointed out. To assume anything is a miscalculation.
First is to acknowledge that you have no knowledge. Then, for conventional purposes, choose to believe in the material world and accept that evidence of anything will only lead to more questions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Whether it be the in between of physics and quantum physics or the location of an electron. If there is any randomness at all within the universe, then the argument for free will remains open. Or, the idea of randomness is nothing more than a paradoxical concept that doesn't actually exist in this universe which means time is irrelevant even on a human level and the idea that we are anything but a product of our environment is false. Who knows...
Either way, perception is still reality. So if you believe you have choice, then you do. After all, without our species a thing called a "word", a sound wave we make with our mouths that means something that is symbolic for something else, has no meaning.Because without us, the word "word" has no meaning. Or rather, without some conscious creature to understand it, it has no meaning. So, the idea of free will, without us doesn't matter either. So, being human, the one with a perception to understand the concept of free will defines what it is. We define what we choose to be and do.
And one of the main arguments I can think of with the above statement would be to target this sentence: "So if you believe you have choice, then you do."
And then respond with something like "What you believe doesn't define reality" and give an example like "If you were raised to believe the world was made of peanut butter and believed it with all your heart, it doesn't change the fact that you are 100% wrong."
And I would respond with: "To who? To who is that wrong? To someone else? Does someone else matter? To believe to have knowledge is the same thing as having knowledge by the perception of the individual with the belief. If you want to get into belief versus truth, then you are now dipping your foot into nothing but philosophy and metaphysics which will eventually lead you to the same answer I just provided."
And that's why I believe that the argument of whether we have free will or not is a bit irrelevant to "truth". Now, maybe you can come up with something else to argue the existence of free will. I'm sure something will be said for the sake of discussion. But as far as I can see( which isn't very far), it doesn't really matter. What is or is not free will, what is right or wrong, what does or does not "matter" doesn't matter. But if it does matter to you, then it does matter.
And with that I say CHEERS. Drunk Philosoraptor OUT.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I was trying to bring her around to this.
Maintaining a persona is hard work. Gotta make the rounds.
But in all seriousness, normally I wouldn't have posted that because I know those ideas don't really interest you...but alcohol makes me social.
I donno...I just can't really shake these philosophies. I can't help but think things like that. It's how I view the world. From my point of view, whether free will is or is not an idea with a directly applicable "real" example doesn't matter.
And to be completely honest( and to give new light to the argument) the idea of "free will" is VERY philosophical in nature. Especially when you start to question it's nature and relativity to what REALLY is or is not existing. "Do we really choose things or is it just matter playing out what started at the big bang".
Your initial statement Proletaria was a statement suggesting that when all of the facts are analyzed, the nature of free will doesn't seem to exist.
And when I hear something like that, all I can think is "Exist? What IS existing?" Of course you can laugh this off and present my argument as a cliche philosophical over-examination. Hell, it can even be said I'm just some young college idiot exploring ideas that have already been explored for hundreds of years.
But to that, I can't help but think that we simply are not addressing the full scope of an idea like free will and what it really entails both as an existing or non existing thing in the universe that humans labeled, and as an idea that is completely imprisoned by our perception of it as it's creator.
Most peoples arguments refuting the worth in things like skepticism, to me seem like a giant ad hominem. Our presumed knowledge is held up by an incredibly strong infrastructure. Since recorded history, all of humanity almost works like one, giant brain. Past, recorded experiences solidify what they presume to be knowledge through both a sense of knowing via senses and a reassurance and reaffirmation of their senses through the perceived senses of others that they were told about and that they heard...via their senses.
Of course there is the age old question "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Which, with an real evaluation hints at my point. But, to do it one better:
If no creature is left to perceive an idea, is it an idea at all?
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Then explain to me how omnipotence and omnipresence without beneficence or any other factor affects the concept of a person's free will in any way.
Omnipotence. All powerful. They can do anything they want.
Omnipresence. Everywhere. They are everywhere all the time.
Either the deity cares and because he or she is all powerful, will make you do as they want, or they don't give a shit and it doesn't matter to us one way or the other if they exist.
(Or they care but are too damn lazy to do anything.)
the effect is inherent in the belief of an supreme being. if he is all knowing then he knows what you will experience in life. the god knows your future and what decisions you will already make - thus, leaving free will only an illusion to you since you cannot know your own future. and if he is not all knowing, then he is not a god that is all powerful - thus, he is not God.
5-0 gd.
whether you chose to believe in such a thing hardly matters to me since i prescribe to the belief that as humans, we dont really know what we want.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?
and, if he does not know what path you will chose, then he is not a god, just an observer with limited power. im sure the catholic church, or any denomination by that matter, would not like to hear that about their alpha and omega.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Or still has omnipotence but is apathetic for whatever reason, this also ties in with the "grand plan" mentioned earlier
Thank you.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
I would rather not take the cognitive leap to either side and simply pronounce my ignorance.
I used to be obsessed about this whole subject but for now I realized that philosophizing about this is pretty much pointless. No matter how long you talk to yourself or with people, everyone is still at the same position about this deity figure. He can be all loving or a complete asshole. No one knows.
Until then, we are at the same level as accepting possibilities about deities but we must assume that there is not.
Cheers,
Irrational
We are not forced to make any assumptions. We can do and believe in whatever we desire.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
So do so. I don't care. You can believe that Red Skull coughed up dyslexic NASCAR drivers that shitted out the universe. But if you honestly want to believe that, be prepared to not be taken seriously in the academic field.
And for the record, any assumptions are looked down upon in the ACADEMIC FIELD. You can do nothing but claim ignorance as Proletaria pointed out. To assume anything is a miscalculation.
First is to acknowledge that you have no knowledge. Then, for conventional purposes, choose to believe in the material world and accept that evidence of anything will only lead to more questions.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged