a)recycling your old stuff (Is that so important to you? Never seemed to be a problem for me in WoW.)
Good item sinks are an INFINITELY BETTER solution to this as compared to bind to account/equip. Whether or not it's a problem in WoW is completely irrelevent because this is the Diablo franchise, not World of Warcraft. I've been able to "recycle" my old gear in EVERY OTHER DIABLO TITLE SO FAR and it hasn't been a problem. Why is it suddenly such a massive economic problem now that it must be solved in this manner? D2 (online) had a huge amount of "good" items because of dupes. There was still vibrant trading, even with near-infinite supply and complete lack of binding of items.
b)buy stuff only to resell it: That's clearly nowhere near the spirit of an action rpg, do we agree? Not that it is against it, either, but it doesn't have anything at all to do with monster slaying.
You could flip in D2 as well, believe it or not. Some people amassed an absolutely amazing amount of wealth just by shopping the deals. SOME people. They didn't make items bind in D2 because some people were doing this though. The whole idea of flipping NECESSITATES that it's only done by a small portion of the population. The more people who are flipping the fewer the opportunities are to do so.
Changing how the game fundamentally works because of a small segment of the population is a very bad idea. This isn't the RMAH gold dupe exploit where you obviously have to fix the exploit. What you're asking is for the concept of free trade to be completely impinged upon because some people are getting rich due to other people listing items too cheaply.
You want to truly eliminate flipping? Educate people on how to price items. Don't screw over the entire playerbase with binding items over it, though.
Would that not be your choice? You could choose: to be overpowered and sleep through the game, or NOT to be overpowered and sleep through the game.
The game should basically be balanced around people playing on their own (or with family/friends) and some very light trading. You know... your buddy plays a monk, you find a nice Inna's Helm and you offer it to him. The game should not be based on MASS trading. If you engage in mass trading then you're going to "shoot through the ranks" and have to deal with the ramifications.
They shouldn't remove or penalize trading. But they should de-incentivize it by making it plausible for you to effectively play the game without engaging in it.
I've said this before, though probably not in this thread: I use the term "self found" loosely. The way I play is not strictly self found. If my friend says to me: "I was playing yesterday and found this helm, I thought you might want it", then yeah, I'll take it. I found 2 legendaries in the last few days, and gave them both to the friend I was playing with. Conversely, he gave me 2 rares that were good for my dude.
Maybe I should add a disclaimer to my sig.
Just say "never used the AH". But quite frankly, your definition of self-found is that what is most commonly used. It's just common sense. There was even a blue poster the other day who said this is his definition of self-found - you can just quote/link that ;-)
Good item sinks are an INFINITELY BETTER solution to this as compared to bind to account/equip. Whether or not it's a problem in WoW is completely irrelevent because this is the Diablo franchise, not World of Warcraft. I've been able to "recycle" my old gear in EVERY OTHER DIABLO TITLE SO FAR and it hasn't been a problem. Why is it suddenly such a massive economic problem now that it must be solved in this manner? D2 (online) had a huge amount of "good" items because of dupes. There was still vibrant trading, even with near-infinite supply and complete lack of binding of items.
Feel free to propose a better item sink. I'd say taking something good from a game that had years of massive success isn't bad.
I think, we have different opinions about the good times/aspects of D2. To me, the online experience died with the ever-present cheated items. You just couldn't tell, if an item was "legit" or not. And I neither wanted to be relatively weak (I used to think pretty competitively back then) or invent my own excuse for why my Ber-runes (yes, plural) were legit. I'd buy one for someone, who has played at least 2 years, they were that rare. I think, I never saw one actually drop, my best single rune was a Sur. And I've played high end D2 for way more time than I've played D3.
But nevermind, to your question, about why there is suddenly a problem, that did not exist in D2 even though things were almost the same. That reason is the AH. It's not that the AH is bad, it kinda activates and spreads the virus, which is the overabundance of items. Back then it were (cheated) Ber-runes, now let's take Mempos again. This "in your face" accessibilty of the AH really enhances the problem, which at it's core is the same as it was with those Bers. It's true, that you could obtain such a rune just as easily and be overpowered like all the rest. It wasn't just that obvious to everyone and didn't negatively impact players who didn't care about others(=> in D3 there are adjusted drop rates). Those, who thought competitively (ladders..) were at a loss.
You could flip in D2 as well, believe it or not. Some people amassed an absolutely amazing amount of wealth just by shopping the deals. SOME people.
I'm aware of that, I know such people. It's fine, if they take their fun out of that. But, like you said, that's a small group of people and I would turn the argument around to say: We shouldn't keep crap because of a small group of people. The crap being unbinding items. Getting rid of flippers might have sounded like my main interest, but it's not. I wouldn't mind, if they were gone, as they contribute nothing, but that's really just a side effect of this item sink that is binding.
They shouldn't remove or penalize trading. But they should de-incentivize it by making it plausible for you to effectively play the game without engaging in it.
I kind of agree with this.
I could reduce my suggested item sink to "bind to account on equip", that would be the bare minimum and a pure improvement of the game with no unwarranted penalties to anyone.
That would keep trading and flipping alive and working at full capacity. The problem of this is, that time spent on the AH would remain more rewarding than time spent playing, which is one of the game's biggest issues. Tackling this is important, imo. And via my original suggestion, Blizz could kill those two birds with one stone.
Well, something needs to be done. Items just need to leave the economy, just like in hardcore.
Maybe introducing an idea that uses this concept could work.
I've always liked the idea of Imbue. Basically, players have the option to imbue items at the blacksmith, it can increase the base damage of weapons, as well as the stats of armor. The downside is that is binds it to your account. So, you have the choice, either never imbue anything, and keep the option of trading open, or increase the power of your character by say 20% but never be able to sell. The cost of Imbue would also use a large number of brimstones, so all these lower end set items/legendaries you see on the AH for like 50k gold, would be more valuable in form of a brimstone.
That's a great idea! It's basically BoE plus a brimstone sink, another two birds out
@Snap7: I'm pretty sure that has been brought up before but still - completely agree, great idea. Just don't call it "imbue", people will compare it to D2 imbuing which was essentially just "find white item, level new char, give item to Charsi, done".
I'd rather call it something like... "enchanting". It could be done by some new NPC, for example some kind of old lady... let's call her "Mystic". Could look like that:
Okay, to add something new, I would not simply put an additional affix on an item, but take one affix and change it. So you couldn't just take a crap Mempo and put crit on it, or socket every weapon, but you could take a 4% crit Mempo and hope for 6%. But you might also say the wrong words during the enchanting process and the affix would get reduced to 3% (or disappear). This enchantment would cost some brimstones and other materials, and loads of money - just to finally have one money sink. And if enchanting "fails" you would also remove that item from the economy (a 4% crit Mempo that would lose that stat loses 99% of its value). It wouldn't even need to become BoA.
* I know that "enchanting", "Mystic", and the image are all ideas from the beta, but I have seen so many "suggestion threads" lately that blatantly copy beta ideas without giving any credit... I don't give a damn anymore.
* I know that "enchanting", "Mystic", and the image are all ideas from the beta, but I have seen so many "suggestion threads" lately that blatantly copy beta ideas without giving any credit... I don't give a damn anymore.
Haha, didn't sound like you wanted to take credit. Way too obvious.
I would not support a gold cost though. The item/gold balance is way out of line right now and if we further strengthen cash, strengthening items would lose it's point.
100k gold buys way too much these days, given that you can obtain that during normal mode. My opinion.
I understood it correctly which is why I stated it is unfair. As I've said, the Auction House is a valid form of trading and there is no reason players should be punished for using. I respect those who don't use it whether it be only playing self found or only trading with players via chat channels and forums.
From what I'm gathering from your reply is that there are people who simply believe the Auction House is a problem because it exists and not because of its functionality or consequences. That's also fine however it's irreversible at this point. Diablo III is going to have a functional Auction House for the rest of its existence.
I believe the auction house causes issues because of the way it functions. Basically it's just too powerful you can get the exact item from the auction house that you want and begin using it immediately....why is this an issue? because it far surpasses anything which could ever be achieved in game...it is the ultimate item source if you want an instant upgrade with very little playing of the game involved.
trading should imo not be a more powerful source of acquiring items than the game is-for individuals trading should be supplemental to your in game item finding activities
The main benefits of the auction house are that it grounds the in game currency and mitigates third party item sellers to an extent.
These features are worth preserving as they are the genuine improvements from D2 but these could be preserved without having it be the instantaneous, impersonal incomparably efficient source of items which it is now. thus as well as providing better item sinks etc the auction house should be reformed towards a system that supports and enhances in game trades. This would not punish people who want to trade more rather than less but would limit the efficiency of the auction house in a way that allows the developers to balance in game drops against a realistic trading source rather than an insurmountable one.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
PoE doesn't have an AH, but people still complain that trading >>>>>>> drops.
The only problem that needs to be solved is that playing without the AH needs to feel rewarding. If some people want to shortcut their way to the top and then get bored... who cares? That's not a problem Blizzard should even bother attempting to solve.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
PoE doesn't have an AH, but people still complain that trading >>>>>>> drops.
The only problem that needs to be solved is that playing without the AH needs to feel rewarding. If some people want to shortcut their way to the top and then get bored... who cares? That's not a problem Blizzard should even bother attempting to solve.
Well i would presume that the players who are now bored as a result of short-cutting do care and that blizzard does not want bored players, secondly why should a short-cut exist in the first-place?? its not an intentional short-cut the auction house was not implemented to make the game much much easier but it does....
so yeah i disagree that all that needs to be handled is that playing without the auction house should be satisfying: its an equation as you stated: trading >>>> drops and any change that increases drops quality or quantity as an item source will make the short-cut shorter and even less enjoyable. Therefore i believe the auction house needs to be re-implemented in a way which makes it much less powerful.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
This really got me thinking.
ALL the items in the ah once dropped for somebody. There is no other source for items than having them drop ingame. So when people say "the drops are too bad, look at all the nice items in the AH" they are really saying "MY drops are bad, I am jaelous cause I see that there are people who get better drops".
I wonder if people realize that all the big money items don't even touch the RMAH or GMAH anymore. They are traded and sold outside of that format and have been for some time now. All people do is buy out the suckers who post their GG find at the 2b cap and then they flip it on another site (cough d2jsp) for more.
You either use the AH or you don't its not even in the top 10 things wrong and/or ruining the game at this point. Bigger fish to fry.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
This really got me thinking.
ALL the items in the ah once dropped for somebody. There is no other source for items than having them drop ingame. So when people say "the drops are too bad, look at all the nice items in the AH" they are really saying "MY drops are bad, I am jaelous cause I see that there are people who get better drops".
In my opinion.
Maybe I am wrong. Please enlighten me.
No your totally right every item is originally found by someone(except for duping) but that's not the perspective which we are individually presented with. The AH is just like a giant vendor which allows you to search for any item in the game. That suggestion has been made allot by people( jealousy) but that does not cover the self found trend-people voluntarily choosing to not use the AH at all because they find it ruins their experience with the game, nor does it cover people finding the game too easy or boring as a result of using the AH.
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Good item sinks are an INFINITELY BETTER solution to this as compared to bind to account/equip. Whether or not it's a problem in WoW is completely irrelevent because this is the Diablo franchise, not World of Warcraft. I've been able to "recycle" my old gear in EVERY OTHER DIABLO TITLE SO FAR and it hasn't been a problem. Why is it suddenly such a massive economic problem now that it must be solved in this manner? D2 (online) had a huge amount of "good" items because of dupes. There was still vibrant trading, even with near-infinite supply and complete lack of binding of items.
You could flip in D2 as well, believe it or not. Some people amassed an absolutely amazing amount of wealth just by shopping the deals. SOME people. They didn't make items bind in D2 because some people were doing this though. The whole idea of flipping NECESSITATES that it's only done by a small portion of the population. The more people who are flipping the fewer the opportunities are to do so.
Changing how the game fundamentally works because of a small segment of the population is a very bad idea. This isn't the RMAH gold dupe exploit where you obviously have to fix the exploit. What you're asking is for the concept of free trade to be completely impinged upon because some people are getting rich due to other people listing items too cheaply.
You want to truly eliminate flipping? Educate people on how to price items. Don't screw over the entire playerbase with binding items over it, though.
The game should basically be balanced around people playing on their own (or with family/friends) and some very light trading. You know... your buddy plays a monk, you find a nice Inna's Helm and you offer it to him. The game should not be based on MASS trading. If you engage in mass trading then you're going to "shoot through the ranks" and have to deal with the ramifications.
They shouldn't remove or penalize trading. But they should de-incentivize it by making it plausible for you to effectively play the game without engaging in it.
Just say "never used the AH". But quite frankly, your definition of self-found is that what is most commonly used. It's just common sense. There was even a blue poster the other day who said this is his definition of self-found - you can just quote/link that ;-)
Feel free to propose a better item sink. I'd say taking something good from a game that had years of massive success isn't bad.
I think, we have different opinions about the good times/aspects of D2. To me, the online experience died with the ever-present cheated items. You just couldn't tell, if an item was "legit" or not. And I neither wanted to be relatively weak (I used to think pretty competitively back then) or invent my own excuse for why my Ber-runes (yes, plural) were legit. I'd buy one for someone, who has played at least 2 years, they were that rare. I think, I never saw one actually drop, my best single rune was a Sur. And I've played high end D2 for way more time than I've played D3.
But nevermind, to your question, about why there is suddenly a problem, that did not exist in D2 even though things were almost the same. That reason is the AH. It's not that the AH is bad, it kinda activates and spreads the virus, which is the overabundance of items. Back then it were (cheated) Ber-runes, now let's take Mempos again. This "in your face" accessibilty of the AH really enhances the problem, which at it's core is the same as it was with those Bers. It's true, that you could obtain such a rune just as easily and be overpowered like all the rest. It wasn't just that obvious to everyone and didn't negatively impact players who didn't care about others(=> in D3 there are adjusted drop rates). Those, who thought competitively (ladders..) were at a loss.
I'm aware of that, I know such people. It's fine, if they take their fun out of that. But, like you said, that's a small group of people and I would turn the argument around to say: We shouldn't keep crap because of a small group of people. The crap being unbinding items. Getting rid of flippers might have sounded like my main interest, but it's not. I wouldn't mind, if they were gone, as they contribute nothing, but that's really just a side effect of this item sink that is binding.
I kind of agree with this.
I could reduce my suggested item sink to "bind to account on equip", that would be the bare minimum and a pure improvement of the game with no unwarranted penalties to anyone.
That would keep trading and flipping alive and working at full capacity. The problem of this is, that time spent on the AH would remain more rewarding than time spent playing, which is one of the game's biggest issues. Tackling this is important, imo. And via my original suggestion, Blizz could kill those two birds with one stone.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
That's a great idea! It's basically BoE plus a brimstone sink, another two birds out
And yes, paragon and ladder don't match at all.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I'd rather call it something like... "enchanting". It could be done by some new NPC, for example some kind of old lady... let's call her "Mystic". Could look like that:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2m4vker.jpg *
Okay, to add something new, I would not simply put an additional affix on an item, but take one affix and change it. So you couldn't just take a crap Mempo and put crit on it, or socket every weapon, but you could take a 4% crit Mempo and hope for 6%. But you might also say the wrong words during the enchanting process and the affix would get reduced to 3% (or disappear). This enchantment would cost some brimstones and other materials, and loads of money - just to finally have one money sink. And if enchanting "fails" you would also remove that item from the economy (a 4% crit Mempo that would lose that stat loses 99% of its value). It wouldn't even need to become BoA.
* I know that "enchanting", "Mystic", and the image are all ideas from the beta, but I have seen so many "suggestion threads" lately that blatantly copy beta ideas without giving any credit... I don't give a damn anymore.
Haha, didn't sound like you wanted to take credit. Way too obvious.
I would not support a gold cost though. The item/gold balance is way out of line right now and if we further strengthen cash, strengthening items would lose it's point.
100k gold buys way too much these days, given that you can obtain that during normal mode. My opinion.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I believe the auction house causes issues because of the way it functions. Basically it's just too powerful you can get the exact item from the auction house that you want and begin using it immediately....why is this an issue? because it far surpasses anything which could ever be achieved in game...it is the ultimate item source if you want an instant upgrade with very little playing of the game involved.
trading should imo not be a more powerful source of acquiring items than the game is-for individuals trading should be supplemental to your in game item finding activities
The main benefits of the auction house are that it grounds the in game currency and mitigates third party item sellers to an extent.
These features are worth preserving as they are the genuine improvements from D2 but these could be preserved without having it be the instantaneous, impersonal incomparably efficient source of items which it is now. thus as well as providing better item sinks etc the auction house should be reformed towards a system that supports and enhances in game trades. This would not punish people who want to trade more rather than less but would limit the efficiency of the auction house in a way that allows the developers to balance in game drops against a realistic trading source rather than an insurmountable one.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
PoE doesn't have an AH, but people still complain that trading >>>>>>> drops.
The only problem that needs to be solved is that playing without the AH needs to feel rewarding. If some people want to shortcut their way to the top and then get bored... who cares? That's not a problem Blizzard should even bother attempting to solve.
Well i would presume that the players who are now bored as a result of short-cutting do care and that blizzard does not want bored players, secondly why should a short-cut exist in the first-place?? its not an intentional short-cut the auction house was not implemented to make the game much much easier but it does....
so yeah i disagree that all that needs to be handled is that playing without the auction house should be satisfying: its an equation as you stated: trading >>>> drops and any change that increases drops quality or quantity as an item source will make the short-cut shorter and even less enjoyable. Therefore i believe the auction house needs to be re-implemented in a way which makes it much less powerful.
This really got me thinking.
ALL the items in the ah once dropped for somebody. There is no other source for items than having them drop ingame. So when people say "the drops are too bad, look at all the nice items in the AH" they are really saying "MY drops are bad, I am jaelous cause I see that there are people who get better drops".
In my opinion.
Maybe I am wrong. Please enlighten me.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
You either use the AH or you don't its not even in the top 10 things wrong and/or ruining the game at this point. Bigger fish to fry.
No your totally right every item is originally found by someone(except for duping) but that's not the perspective which we are individually presented with. The AH is just like a giant vendor which allows you to search for any item in the game. That suggestion has been made allot by people( jealousy) but that does not cover the self found trend-people voluntarily choosing to not use the AH at all because they find it ruins their experience with the game, nor does it cover people finding the game too easy or boring as a result of using the AH.