Well, like some of you I imagine, I was watching the Play Station event yesterday online and had the shock/supprise of seeing Chris Metzen announce Diablo 3 is coming to the Playstation 3/4.
After the initial shock wore off - it all started making sense.
I know a lot of the people left on this site are pretty much happy with the game and love playing it (more power to you), but for folks like me that spent years devouring development news, looking forward to this game more than any other EVER, and feel let down by it, yesterday provided a bit of an epiphany.
This game shifted during development from being Diablo 3, the sequel to Diablo 2: LoD, to being Diablo 3 for Consoles.
The evidence is so clear. All those late decisions that got dropped on us back during late 2010, and all through 2011 make so much sense now. This game had to be easy and simple to work on a console.
Skill System (runes not itemized)
Runes, which were supposed to be itemized, were changed to be part of the UI. When we finally saw that UI, my first thought was "really? this is a joke right?". The UI and really the whole skill/rune system feels like a port from a console game. Pick your skill, drop down box, pick your rune effect.
(To answe Maffia: As you say, Blizzard chose not to go that route. I wonder why? Consoles. Look at Path of Exile!! The Itemized skills works GREAT in that game. They chose not to address that so that the game could be made for consoles.
6 Skills at once (Thanks Maffia for the pointer forgot they changed it from 7 to 6 - again late in development)
Square, Triangle, Circle, X, Left Shoulder, Right Shoulder, Left Trigger, Right Trigger
6 Skills, two potions. Point is, simple is better. Point is, it makes much more sense to build a game that confines you to 6 choices when you realize its build for a console gamepad.
Linear "Randomness"
If you, like me, were/are very un-impressed by the supposed "randomness" of Diablo 3, than coming to the realization that the game is supposed to be played on a Console makes it all make sense. Its areas are perfectly designed to be walked through on a console, with multi players.
(To Answer Maffia: I'm not "HAHAing" at Console gamers. Its just a simple fact that if you intend for a game to be played split screen with 4 players, the environment needs to be linear.)
Simple Stats
You level up, and have more skills to chose from. Thats it. It always felt to me like just a grose simplification that really had no justification other than "it just makes it more simple". Well, guess what, BINGO. Simple Simple Simple, so you can play it on your couch.
(To Answe Maffia: Late in development, that stats were changed to be more stragithforward, the skill trees were removed, spending points at level up was removed, and we ended up with basically having more "perks" to chose from when you level. Sounds like another Activision game to me..)
Simple Gear
No one wants to use a spread sheet for a console game - so, now we know why the itemization is so straight forward in Diablo 3.
(To answer Maffia: My point is this: in Diablo 3, you don't think about your gear beyond just wanting maor!!. There are no oddball builds that become viable with certain itemization. No number crunching you can do to make a particular weak skill become godly with proper itemzation. Its just, Find primary stats, Health, Crit% and Dam and Attack speed. Do this for every character you have. Simple. Simple because its made for consoles. In a way this is good news for me. I thought the developers were just that bad, that making the items the way they did was just a massive screw up. But it makes sense now)
4 Player's only
We heard it was because there was too much onscreen clutter. Ok.. I don't buy it. It was because 4 Players works on a console.
(To answer Maffia: Oh really? Call of Duty lets more people play than 4? Shock. Guess how many can play on one system though? 4. 4 Player split screen. In the words of Chris himelf "One Couch to Rule them all")
Lack of Game Creation / Game names
Sorry, but it seems to me like the whole "auto join / auto match maker" system was designed specifically for the console crowd. This makes sense now too.
Look, hate on me if you will (I'm sure you will, and thats ok) but when I heard this news.. I just kinda let out a long sigh.. and the lightbulb went off for me.
Call me a hater, tell me to go on my way, tell me to leave this site if I'm done playing.. but you know what? No! I spent 2 years of my life devouring everything about this game. I've earned the right to voice my opinion on here as long as I like.
I still care about the game, I still (for some insane reason) feel like it could get better. Heck, I even enjoyed the game while I played it to a point. But, the fact remains, that I feel like Blizzard pulled the chair out from under me and about a zillion other Diablo fans. Its their game, they can do what they want to with it, but man.. I feel like all the big (and to me annoying) game changes that came late in development were made just to accomodate consoles.
You can think Diablo 3 is a great game. As I said at the start, more power to you! I really am glad you like it. But, to take this IP which I love so Dearly and make it a Console game (at its heart) really bothers me.
I know some people say "You don't know Diablo, if you did you would know that Diablo was already on a Console, so this is no big deal". Well, your right, except that no one knows about that Console Version of Diablo for PS1 because it was SOO bad. And it should have been. Diablo was a pure PC ARPG, trying to put that in a console should never work.
Sadly, the reverse is true with Diablo 3. So, I feel the console version will work quite well. Heck, I'll buy it, I like console ARPGs. It was, after all, built to be a console ARPG.
There's a chance, but this isn't battle.net, so adult, well-reasoned posts without personal attacks that actually discuss the series usually stay up. Sorry.
OP, you wont feel any hate from me. I agree 100%. Still going to play and enjoy any updates that resemble the old D2 type of game, but def disappointed. And I wont pre-buy any more blizz games nor will I hurry and buy a new playstation like I did a new computer to play D3. Lesson Learned.
Yea, delete it becaue the guy with 10 posts says so please.
Never mind me, the guy whos been active on this site since May 2011 - has +138 rep from all my well reasoned, informative and helpfull posts back during develpment.
Any way.. believe me I understand the gut reaction of hating on me for typing this. There was a time when i would have hated on a thread like this too - but that time is gone. I'm not calling people who hate on me Blind. I do believe that many many people love Diablo 3 for what it is. Genuinley love it. As I said above, more power to you.
But that doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a bit of cloak and dagger work that went on late in development of this game.. and for people like me, it didn't turn out that great. It made D3 a simple console game ARPG.
Look, I have a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
I am a pretty hardcore gamer. I devour games that I like. I'm there right now with Path of Exile - its sooo Tasty!
My brother is a very very softcore, casual gamer. One of his favorite games of all time was/is Champions of Norath for Play Station 2.
I like Champions of Norath for PS2. Its a fun game. I really really liked it. But I played it for about a month and was done. My brother (who digs the simplicity of that game) STILL plays it.
Guess what? I.. who was the one obbessed with Diablo 3 pre launch, talked my brother into buying it day 1. he did. HE LOVES DIABLO 3. He can't quit playing.
Also guess what, my brother, NEVER could get into Diablo 2: LoD - I tried so many times. He beat the game on normal once and that was it.
Look I know this is just one example and not evident of every person's expirences. But, for me, my brother's love and addiction to Diablo 3 is a huge example of the fact that Diablo 3 was made for people like him. Console gamers.
There were huge fundamental issues with the implementation Blizzard were proposing with this system, possibly fixable but Blizz went a different way, and frankly menus will be a clunky mess in D3 on consoles anyway, 1 more wouldn't make a difference.
7 Skills at once
There appears to be an issue with basic counting here, you only have 6 skills active at once and you've listed 9 buttons.
Linear "Randomness"
You don't really seem have a point here other then 'haha console gamers are noob idiots'.
Simple Stats
See linear randomness.
Simple Gear
See linear randomness.
4 Player's only
Damn, CoD would be so much better is multiplayer games weren't limied to 4 players, oh wait....consoles handle more than 4 players at a time just fine.
Thanks for the point on the skills - I forgot (its been that long since I played) it was changed to 6 skills down from 7, another late delopment change.
Point is.. less is more (the design choice Blizzard took at nearly EVERY decision) makes alot more sense when you realize it was inteneded to be for Consoles all along.
As far as me making no point with the Items, linearness and simple stats..
Excuse me sir, but making no point is a different thing than you not agreeing with my point.
The POINT, is that simple is the design philosphy behind basiaclly everything in the game.
EDIT** I added responses to all your points in the OP Maffia, thank you for making me want to further clarify all the points for people who may not have been folowing what I meant.
Yeah, this interview only proves that they had no clue about designing for consoles and no console designers at this time, as pointed out here.
@OP: I'm actually as disappointed about the console announcement as you are, see here. But the "evidence" you provide somehow doesn't work out.
-Skill system: I have a hard time imagining how the current skill interface, without significant changes, is "optimized" for consoles/game pads. I have seen a variety of games, in particular RPGs, which are clearly ports of console games to PC, and that bothers me. I did not feel this when I played D3 for the first time (though I didn't like the skill interface for a variety of other reasons, but nothing related to consoles). I didn't feel the urge to pick up my game pad and throw away my keyboard.
-6 skills, yep. Plus a potion. Plus skill interface, inventory, follower, ... just open the key assignment panel, the number of keys you can assign somehow exceeds those of even the craziest game pads I have seen so far.
-Linearity: I've read of this dead horse a couple of times now, but I really don't get where people see "linearity" in Keep 2. In MP games it's virtually impossible to stay together in this madness of dead-end streets.
-Simple stats: what does this have to do with console games? There are more complex games on PC and on console, and there are simpler games on PC and on console. It's a design decision, and it's been made because balancing a few stats is easier than hundred different variables (and even though it's simpler it's still not balanced yet).
-Simple gear: same as stats. Btw, they need to change a lot for the console game by your logic, because D3 right now is all about spread sheets.
-4 players only: It's an arbitrary number they've chosen at some point, I think they even provided reasoning for that; but seriously, what would keep them to just reduce the number of players in the console version of the game? Nothing.
-Lack of game creation/names: Is SC2 also available on consoles right now? Because you don't have game names there, either. And to be honest, I don't miss them. "ONLY PROS PLX NO DL NO NOOBS JOIN DA MASTA" doesn't help me more than joining a random game on the act 3 quest to kill Azmodan. (Not saying the current system is better, but again it's just a different design decision and not one with consoles in mind.)
Battle.net, online-only, no local co-op play, no local storing of files (as necessary by Playstation guidelines as someone mentioned earlier), an interface that completely revolves around mouse use only and not a single thing about the interface that makes me want to pick up a game pad - these are my arguments for why D3 was not designed for a console. Oh, and btw, the proof that Greed1337 thankfully provided, showing that until 15 months ago they didn't even have console developers nor a clue about their direction for a console game.
Thanks for the point on the skills - I forgot (its been that long since I played) it was changed to 6 skills down from 7, another late delopment change.
Point is.. less is more (the design choice Blizzard took at nearly EVERY decision) makes alot more sense when you realize it was inteneded to be for Consoles all along.
As far as me making no point with the Items, linearness and simple stats..
Excuse me sir, but making no point is a different thing than you not agreeing with my point.
The POINT, is that simple is the design philosphy behind basiaclly everything in the game.
Wow...really hard to take such an intelligent post serious with so many spelling errors, but I'll try...
Been a while since you played, huh? Your profile says last week. And nice Monk main, by the way. Love how you say the skill system is basically for simpletons, yet your Monk's skill loadout is cookie cutter to everyone else's Thunderclap/Overawe/Sweeping Wind routine. I'm sure a complex PC gamer like yourself must've taken a long time slotting those skills into their skill bar and feeling about as leet as every other schmuck wearing a Vile Ward, Inna's Helm, Chest and Pants, and Nat's boots.
Oh, and...I highly doubt you FOUND those items...which means you BOUGHT all the best items on the AH, AND are using a cookie cutter build on your main. Well done proving how "good" you are.
This is what happens so often. People insult this game and call it "simple," yet they take the easiest possible route to the end. Yes...anything you do where you take the easiest route to the end is going to look insanely simple. Diablo 2, there wasn't many easy routes, if there were any at all. Then again, you call out D3's "linear randomness" as a problem, yet somehow, Diablo 2's "randomly generated environments" were so much better? Giant squares where paths, objects and enemies were mixed up, and the only way to advance was to find the little opening to the next giant square? Yeah, that was impressive game design. And you do realize how many thousands of people MapHacked D2 so they didn't have to deal with random maps, right? I'm sure you do. Truth is, it's an easy parlor trick, plenty of other games replicated it, and many failed. D2 succeeded because of its solid gameplay and how much players could do with classes to build them.
They say they love how skill trees and stat points offer "permanent" choice. Yeah? And how many D2 players had a million different toons, rerolled and restarted a BILLION other toons? Because they like "permanent" choice? Eh. People power-leveling each other to 60 on a Saturday afternoon really downgraded that whole "permanence" thing.
You say the gear is simple, and that no one wants to use a spreadsheet on a console...implying that people who play PC games love spreadsheets? I'm sure you love hanging around spreadsheets while wearing a cookie cutter gear build like your Monk has on.
Look...keep underestimating this game and keep justifying its existence by implying it was designed for idiots who play console games. D2 was insanely simple, it was just hard for casuals to succeed at.
One of the reasons many people are "dissatisfied" with D3...because it's mainstream. If it were still an underground guilty pleasure, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. But it's had commercials on TV, much bigger promotion, and many more casuals are trying it out and liking it.
Why do you think so many people play Path of Exile? Because of its "complexity"? Or because they can feel totally hip in the gaming community because they're NOT playing mainstream Diablo?
Copies of Diablo: Battle Chest continue to be sold in retail stores, appearing on the NPD Group's top 10 PC games sales list as recently as 2010.Even more remarkably, the Diablo: Battle Chest was the 19th best selling PC game of 2008– a full seven years after the game's initial release – and 11 million users still play Diablo II and StarCraft over Battle.net.
The two reasons why Diablo sold so much over the years were waves when new information popped up about D3 and people bought the old game (I did so, too) and the game was so cheap that people just bought additional copies for more stash or whatever (I had three accounts, we even used one as a "shared stash" among my friends).
And the 11 million players distributed among D2 and SC were mostly playing SC ;-) Because at this point there was no SC2 yet and SC is the national sport of South Korea.
your point is absolutely valid, D2 was not underground ever ;-) It was only played by a "few" people in the last ~5 years or so compared to D3 now, which is played by many kids and casual players. Well, at least for a while before they quit ;-)
-Skill system: I have a hard time imagining how the current skill interface, without significant changes, is "optimized" for consoles/game pads. I have seen a variety of games, in particular RPGs, which are clearly ports of console games to PC, and that bothers me. I did not feel this when I played D3 for the first time (though I didn't like the skill interface for a variety of other reasons, but nothing related to consoles). I didn't feel the urge to pick up my game pad and throw away my keyboard.
Your press select to open up the menu screen. You use the D pad to move to the "Skills" tab. You plug in active skills into your unlocked slots. Compare this to trying to manage hunreds of varying levels of skill gems like in the original system. Wouldn't have been hard on a PC (play Path of Exile - the skill gems as items is great) but on a console, it would have NEVER worked.
-6 skills, yep. Plus a potion. Plus skill interface, inventory, follower, ... just open the key assignment panel, the number of keys you can assign somehow exceeds those of even the craziest game pads I have seen so far.
You only need to easily use 6 skills in Diablo 3 - if you could build characters like some of my PoE characters that have 10+ active skills it wouldn't work on a Console. The 8 Primary buttons cover all of the instant availablity to use needs (6 skills + 2 Potions). All that other crap you list is available in the menu.. that you open by pressing start or select... its like you have never played a Console Game before? (possible)
-Linearity: I've read of this dead horse a couple of times now, but I really don't get where people see "linearity" in Keep 2. In MP games it's virtually impossible to stay together in this madness of dead-end streets.
Dead Horse? Ok. You think Diablo 3 isn't linear. I do. Fair enough. Different Opinions.
-Simple stats: what does this have to do with console games? There are more complex games on PC and on console, and there are simpler games on PC and on console. It's a design decision, and it's been made because balancing a few stats is easier than hundred different variables (and even though it's simpler it's still not balanced yet).
"Its made because ballancing a few stats is EASIER than a hundred different variables"
Bingo, thank you for re-stating my point. EVERY design choice went the rout of mindless and easy. What do console gamers like (The majority of them - like my brother I mention above)? Easy and simple. Again, my whole point here is that Diablo 3 was made for THESE people. People who like easy and mindless.
-Simple gear: same as stats. Btw, they need to change a lot for the console game by your logic, because D3 right now is all about spread sheets.
Wow.. what game are you playing that you need a spread sheet? There are no choices.. no meaningfull choices that require a spread sheet.
Path of Exile though? I've opened up a spread sheet 10+ times already. How much Mana and Energy Shield will I need to be able to run 5 Auras if I use the Eldritch Battery passive node? Wow thats alot! What level should I stop leveling up my auras so I can still run them with my desired amount of Mana? Questions.. complex questions like these dont exisit in Diablo 3.
-4 players only: It's an arbitrary number they've chosen at some point, I think they even provided reasoning for that; but seriously, what would keep them to just reduce the number of players in the console version of the game? Nothing.
To save development time? Thats whats frustrating to me. THIS feels like a case of: Diabl 3 was being pre-lauched for PC, for the actual console launhc. You are right, they could have left 6 players in the game. I'm saying (sure I could be tinfoil hatting) that this choice had just as much to do with "4 is best for console split screen" as it did with being good for the PC game, Diablo 3. Maybe more.
-Lack of game creation/names: Is SC2 also available on consoles right now? Because you don't have game names there, either. And to be honest, I don't miss them. "ONLY PROS PLX NO DL NO NOOBS JOIN DA MASTA" doesn't help me more than joining a random game on the act 3 quest to kill Azmodan. (Not saying the current system is better, but again it's just a different design decision and not one with consoles in mind.)
You can make games with names in SC2 - custom games!!
This is a Culture thing - does lack of game creating automatically mean bad game? Of course not! Thats what I didn't cry bloody murder in development about this topic. It does show that a certain mindset was present for D3's development, one that didn't have hard core PC gamers in mind.
Hard core PC gamers (the culture) expects certain things.. like being able to create game lobbies.
Battle.net, online-only, no local co-op play, no local storing of files (as necessary by Playstation guidelines as someone mentioned earlier), an interface that completely revolves around mouse use only and not a single thing about the interface that makes me want to pick up a game pad - these are my arguments for why D3 was not designed for a console. Oh, and btw, the proof that Greed1337 thankfully provided, showing that until 15 months ago they didn't even have console developers nor a clue about their direction for a console game.
I'm sorry - you believe Jay Wilson's interview, and take that link as "proof" they didn't have a console team? Nothing that came out of Blizzard during development turned out to be correct or true. I'm not sure why you believe that. I don't buy that for one second. The powers that be (Bobby!!!) had this is mind for much much much longer than 15 months.
Wow...really hard to take such an intelligent post serious with so many spelling errors, but I'll try...
Thanks for putting forth the effort - I love it when people stoop to grammer insults
I'm a product of the fast paced world of gaming online - where spelling doesnt matter (only comprehension).
Been a while since you played, huh? Your profile says last week. And nice Monk main, by the way. Love how you say the skill system is basically for simpletons, yet your Monk's skill loadout is cookie cutter to everyone else's Thunderclap/Overawe/Sweeping Wind routine. I'm sure a complex PC gamer like yourself must've taken a long time slotting those skills into their skill bar and feeling about as leet as every other schmuck wearing a Vile Ward, Inna's Helm, Chest and Pants, and Nat's boots.
Yes, I did indeed log into see the new patch - quickly realized how pointless that was, and then went back to Path of Exile.
And yes, my monk is Cookie cutter - It wouldn't matter if I explained that my monk was built that way since Launch day, and that my Monk probably was one of the first Monks to use that load out.. so I won't bother. I'm not sure I see what you arguing here?
Are you saying that if I really wanted a more hardcore game I would be using an inferior load out, that requires nothing more than swapping some skills around on my next load up? If you are arguing that then I have nothing to add ..
Except this.. your comments are just doing nothing but backing up what I'm saying. I don't feel any diffeernt than anyother smuck Monk out there. And even if I was different, what would it matter? Some one else can just switch their skills over to mine any way.
Oh, and...I highly doubt you FOUND those items...which means you BOUGHT all the best items on the AH, AND are using a cookie cutter build on your main. Well done proving who "good" you are.
OF COURSE I didn't find those items. Fosh no! I found my Inna's helm if I remeber correctly. The rest I saved gold for and bought. THis is another WHOLE arguement about why I don't like diablo 3 that I won't get in to because I think its off topic. But, the Acution house (Gold one too) is a cancer in Diablo 3. Sucked all the fun out of it for me. Again thanks for making more points for me.
This is what happens so often. People insult this game and call it "simple," yet they take the easiest possible route to the end.
Again, I took this build because its the best (I didnt read about the build, I made the build.. its not hard.. of course its not.. its Diablo 3). I'm not the type of gamer, by the way, do go make a new character on MP10 and use crapy skills just to say i did. At least no in this game. Its just not built that way.
But in a game like Poe!? I have 12 characters already.. all of them different. All of them with different gear needs. All of them unique. Its actualy fun to pick a skill and figure out a way to make it over powered. Why? Because its a complex game. I'm not going to try to jery rig diablo 3 into being complex.. thats a differnt way to play that I'm not interested in.
Yes...anything you do where you take the easiest route to the end is going to look insanely simple. Diablo 2, there wasn't many easy routes, if there were any at all. Then again, you call out D3's "linear randomness" as a problem, yet somehow, Diablo 2's "randomly generated environments" were so much better? Giant squares where paths, objects and enemies were mixed up, and the only way to advance was to find the little opening to the next giant square? Yeah, that was impressive game design. And you do realize how many thousands of people MapHacked D2 so they didn't have to deal with random maps, right? I'm sure you do. Truth is, it's an easy parlor trick, plenty of other games replicated it, and many failed. D2 succeeded because of its solid gameplay and how much players could do with classes to build them.
Here we go.. justifying Diablo 3's short falls by saying "well diablo 2 didn't do that good at all". I'm done with that game. I'm not talking about Diablo 2 - other than I revere it like no other game.
They say they love how skill trees and stat points offer "permanent" choice. Yeah? And how many D2 players had a million different toons, rerolled and restarted a BILLION other toons? Because they like "permanent" choice? Eh. People power-leveling each other to 60 on a Saturday afternoon really downgraded that whole "permanence" thing.
Again.. Look at Path of Exile rather than Diablo 2. Character build Permance (to me - I acknowledge its a prefernce) gives a game massive amounts of replayability.
You say the gear is simple, and that no one wants to use a spreadsheet on a console...implying that people who play PC games love spreadsheets? I'm sure you love hanging around spreadsheets while wearing a cookie cutter gear build like your Monk has on.
LoL.. you don't even read. I never, not once, felt the need to use a spread sheet while playing diablo 3. Yes, i do love to use spread sheets. I do ALOT in path of exile.
Look...keep underestimating this game and keep justifying its existence by implying it was designed for idiots who play console games. D2 was insanely simple, it was just hard for casuals to succeed at.
No.. you have that backwards. I overestimated this game. for 2+ years I overestimated how good it would be. I had faith it would stick to its roots. i had faith it would take thought (somthing my perfect example of a cookie cutter monk shows) to build characters. None of that faith proved warented. So no, I'm finsihed OVERestimating this game. No underestimating going on here. If anything, I still have a shred of hope that the game gets overhauled in an expansion.. that is the truly niave fanboy in my still wishing Blizzard got it right with D3.
One of the reasons many people are "dissatisfied" with D3...because it's mainstream. If it were still an underground guilty pleasure, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. But it's had commercials on TV, much bigger promotion, and many more casuals are trying it out and liking it.
Why do you think so many people play Path of Exile? Because of its "complexity"? Or because they can feel totally hip in the gaming community because they're NOT playing mainstream Diablo?
One of the first things you've said that I agree with. Mainstream is exactly why Im dissatisfied with Diablo 3. But its not simply because its "mainstream" - mainstream isn't bad (Diablo 2 was mainstream!) its because the defination of "mainstream" in this case is "for the masses" - or to get back to my topic point "For console gamers".
I'll take this as an example because you seem to be looking too hard to find anything that might be interpretated as console only design. 6 skills at once is actually pretty ergonomic design if you want to go for a more actiony player experience. Humans only have 5 fingers. Just adding more and more functions that cannot be accessed fast and easily is not good and ergonomic design.
Its like this.. even people who "dont agree with me" (these people like Diablo 3, and are offended by the statement that its deisgned for consoles) say things like this.. that totally back up the fact that its made for a console.
ergonomic design??? Thats what I want in my PC game for sure ..
I don't understand how this could be such a surprise for some people. Rumours have been flying around about a console port for Diablo 3 for years.
The fact thats its ported to console isn't what got me.. its the realization that its DEVELOPED for consoles - with an obvsious (IMO) biased to that community over the PC community.
The fact thats its ported to console isn't what got me.. its the realization that its DEVELOPED for consoles - with an obvsious (IMO) biased to that community over the PC community.
The fact that you think D3 was DEVELOPED for consoles is proof that you are severely detached from reality.
Look, I know intellectual laziness is par for the course on the internet, but guilt-by-association just doesn't work as anything other than breathless polemic. If you've got a beef with game mechanics, evaluate them on their own merits.
This idea that simplified game controls or mechanics are inherently bad is just PC-gamer self-congratulation wearing a crayon-lettered name-tag saying "Ima gaem critic, no srsly". Being a PC gamer doesn't make you a member of some exclusive club that gets a free +10 int perk... hell, identifying as a "PC gamer" is, IMO, a red flag. You either love games, or you don't... and if you do, don't be so goddam hipster about it. "Oh ya, I was, like, into Blizzard before they sold out.", "I only game on hand-made artisan PCs with ingredients sourced directly from Cybertron."
. I also can't understand how a console port can change people's opinions of a game they have invested hundreds of hours in.
Oh this didn't change my opinion of the game - I've thought it was not a good game for a loong loong time now. This just made it more clear why. To me any way.
The fact thats its ported to console isn't what got me.. its the realization that its DEVELOPED for consoles - with an obvsious (IMO) biased to that community over the PC community.
The fact that you think D3 was DEVELOPED for consoles is proof that you are severely detached from reality.
Ok. Any more to add there buddy?
I can only comment on the reality I'm seeing play out in front of my eyes. That reality points to Diablo 3 being aimed at simper console gamer's for a long long long time.
Hopefully you're reading my post first and I can save you some time.
The TL;DR on this is just move on. This whole thread is terrible, it contains no evidence, only conjecture and about post 4-5 it starts being something that could have been copy/pasted from the bliz threads.
Look, I know intellectual laziness is par for the course on the internet, but guilt-by-association just doesn't work as anything other than breathless polemic. If you've got a beef with game mechanics, evaluate them on their own merits.
This idea that simplified game controls or mechanics are inherently bad is just PC-gamer self-congratulation wearing a crayon-lettered name-tag saying "Ima gaem critic, no srsly". Being a PC gamer doesn't make you a member of some exclusive club that gets a free +10 int perk... hell, identifying as a "PC gamer" is, IMO, a red flag. You either love games, or you don't... and if you do, don't be so goddam hipster about it. "Oh ya, I was, like, into Blizzard before they sold out.", "I only game on hand-made artisan PCs with ingredients sourced directly from Cybertron."
/puke
I have a PS3, an Xbox, a PS2, had a Dream Cast.. I'm certainly BOTH a console gamer and a PC gamer.
Are there hardcore games on consoles? OF COURSE! (I point to Darksouls or Demon Souls)
But you rambling response doesn't give me anything to take seriously.
Simple of course doesn't automatically = bad. There are simple games that are great! (Tetris anyone?)
But taking what should be a complex game and simplifying it down to what diablo 3 is, isn't good design. it was targeting a larger audience.. one that I argue is console gamers first and foremost.
And - i say again - I gave 2 years of my life to this game (pre launch). I used to joke with my family that I spent more time "thinking about playing" Diablo 3 than I did actualy playing other games during development.
So yes, I feel i have the right, complete with my crayon colored name tag, to comment on how much I think the game failed.
The people slitting their wrists right now over this news need to get a grip: the original Diablo came out for the PSX, and no one gave a rat's ass then ! Oh wait, I forgot, this is Diablo 3: a $60 game that still gets updates, still has a player-base, and ruined some people's lives becasue it wasn't to their standards. Lamesauce for your Lame-steak.
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After the initial shock wore off - it all started making sense.
I know a lot of the people left on this site are pretty much happy with the game and love playing it (more power to you), but for folks like me that spent years devouring development news, looking forward to this game more than any other EVER, and feel let down by it, yesterday provided a bit of an epiphany.
This game shifted during development from being Diablo 3, the sequel to Diablo 2: LoD, to being Diablo 3 for Consoles.
The evidence is so clear. All those late decisions that got dropped on us back during late 2010, and all through 2011 make so much sense now. This game had to be easy and simple to work on a console.
Skill System (runes not itemized)
Runes, which were supposed to be itemized, were changed to be part of the UI. When we finally saw that UI, my first thought was "really? this is a joke right?". The UI and really the whole skill/rune system feels like a port from a console game. Pick your skill, drop down box, pick your rune effect.
(To answe Maffia: As you say, Blizzard chose not to go that route. I wonder why? Consoles. Look at Path of Exile!! The Itemized skills works GREAT in that game. They chose not to address that so that the game could be made for consoles.
6 Skills at once (Thanks Maffia for the pointer forgot they changed it from 7 to 6 - again late in development)
Square, Triangle, Circle, X, Left Shoulder, Right Shoulder, Left Trigger, Right Trigger
6 Skills, two potions. Point is, simple is better. Point is, it makes much more sense to build a game that confines you to 6 choices when you realize its build for a console gamepad.
Linear "Randomness"
If you, like me, were/are very un-impressed by the supposed "randomness" of Diablo 3, than coming to the realization that the game is supposed to be played on a Console makes it all make sense. Its areas are perfectly designed to be walked through on a console, with multi players.
(To Answer Maffia: I'm not "HAHAing" at Console gamers. Its just a simple fact that if you intend for a game to be played split screen with 4 players, the environment needs to be linear.)
Simple Stats
You level up, and have more skills to chose from. Thats it. It always felt to me like just a grose simplification that really had no justification other than "it just makes it more simple". Well, guess what, BINGO. Simple Simple Simple, so you can play it on your couch.
(To Answe Maffia: Late in development, that stats were changed to be more stragithforward, the skill trees were removed, spending points at level up was removed, and we ended up with basically having more "perks" to chose from when you level. Sounds like another Activision game to me..)
Simple Gear
No one wants to use a spread sheet for a console game - so, now we know why the itemization is so straight forward in Diablo 3.
(To answer Maffia: My point is this: in Diablo 3, you don't think about your gear beyond just wanting maor!!. There are no oddball builds that become viable with certain itemization. No number crunching you can do to make a particular weak skill become godly with proper itemzation. Its just, Find primary stats, Health, Crit% and Dam and Attack speed. Do this for every character you have. Simple. Simple because its made for consoles. In a way this is good news for me. I thought the developers were just that bad, that making the items the way they did was just a massive screw up. But it makes sense now)
4 Player's only
We heard it was because there was too much onscreen clutter. Ok.. I don't buy it. It was because 4 Players works on a console.
(To answer Maffia: Oh really? Call of Duty lets more people play than 4? Shock. Guess how many can play on one system though? 4. 4 Player split screen. In the words of Chris himelf "One Couch to Rule them all")
Lack of Game Creation / Game names
Sorry, but it seems to me like the whole "auto join / auto match maker" system was designed specifically for the console crowd. This makes sense now too.
Look, hate on me if you will (I'm sure you will, and thats ok) but when I heard this news.. I just kinda let out a long sigh.. and the lightbulb went off for me.
Call me a hater, tell me to go on my way, tell me to leave this site if I'm done playing.. but you know what? No! I spent 2 years of my life devouring everything about this game. I've earned the right to voice my opinion on here as long as I like.
I still care about the game, I still (for some insane reason) feel like it could get better. Heck, I even enjoyed the game while I played it to a point. But, the fact remains, that I feel like Blizzard pulled the chair out from under me and about a zillion other Diablo fans. Its their game, they can do what they want to with it, but man.. I feel like all the big (and to me annoying) game changes that came late in development were made just to accomodate consoles.
You can think Diablo 3 is a great game. As I said at the start, more power to you! I really am glad you like it. But, to take this IP which I love so Dearly and make it a Console game (at its heart) really bothers me.
I know some people say "You don't know Diablo, if you did you would know that Diablo was already on a Console, so this is no big deal". Well, your right, except that no one knows about that Console Version of Diablo for PS1 because it was SOO bad. And it should have been. Diablo was a pure PC ARPG, trying to put that in a console should never work.
Sadly, the reverse is true with Diablo 3. So, I feel the console version will work quite well. Heck, I'll buy it, I like console ARPGs. It was, after all, built to be a console ARPG.
There's a chance, but this isn't battle.net, so adult, well-reasoned posts without personal attacks that actually discuss the series usually stay up. Sorry.
Yea, delete it becaue the guy with 10 posts says so please.
Never mind me, the guy whos been active on this site since May 2011 - has +138 rep from all my well reasoned, informative and helpfull posts back during develpment.
Any way.. believe me I understand the gut reaction of hating on me for typing this. There was a time when i would have hated on a thread like this too - but that time is gone. I'm not calling people who hate on me Blind. I do believe that many many people love Diablo 3 for what it is. Genuinley love it. As I said above, more power to you.
But that doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a bit of cloak and dagger work that went on late in development of this game.. and for people like me, it didn't turn out that great. It made D3 a simple console game ARPG.
Look, I have a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
I am a pretty hardcore gamer. I devour games that I like. I'm there right now with Path of Exile - its sooo Tasty!
My brother is a very very softcore, casual gamer. One of his favorite games of all time was/is Champions of Norath for Play Station 2.
I like Champions of Norath for PS2. Its a fun game. I really really liked it. But I played it for about a month and was done. My brother (who digs the simplicity of that game) STILL plays it.
Guess what? I.. who was the one obbessed with Diablo 3 pre launch, talked my brother into buying it day 1. he did. HE LOVES DIABLO 3. He can't quit playing.
Also guess what, my brother, NEVER could get into Diablo 2: LoD - I tried so many times. He beat the game on normal once and that was it.
Look I know this is just one example and not evident of every person's expirences. But, for me, my brother's love and addiction to Diablo 3 is a huge example of the fact that Diablo 3 was made for people like him. Console gamers.
There were huge fundamental issues with the implementation Blizzard were proposing with this system, possibly fixable but Blizz went a different way, and frankly menus will be a clunky mess in D3 on consoles anyway, 1 more wouldn't make a difference.
There appears to be an issue with basic counting here, you only have 6 skills active at once and you've listed 9 buttons.
You don't really seem have a point here other then 'haha console gamers are noob idiots'.
See linear randomness.
See linear randomness.
Damn, CoD would be so much better is multiplayer games weren't limied to 4 players, oh wait....consoles handle more than 4 players at a time just fine.
Yes possible easier this way for consoles.
I only regret having played it for so much time, like 150 hours... sigh.
Thanks for the point on the skills - I forgot (its been that long since I played) it was changed to 6 skills down from 7, another late delopment change.
Point is.. less is more (the design choice Blizzard took at nearly EVERY decision) makes alot more sense when you realize it was inteneded to be for Consoles all along.
As far as me making no point with the Items, linearness and simple stats..
Excuse me sir, but making no point is a different thing than you not agreeing with my point.
The POINT, is that simple is the design philosphy behind basiaclly everything in the game.
EDIT** I added responses to all your points in the OP Maffia, thank you for making me want to further clarify all the points for people who may not have been folowing what I meant.
Yeah, this interview only proves that they had no clue about designing for consoles and no console designers at this time, as pointed out here.
@OP: I'm actually as disappointed about the console announcement as you are, see here. But the "evidence" you provide somehow doesn't work out.
-Skill system: I have a hard time imagining how the current skill interface, without significant changes, is "optimized" for consoles/game pads. I have seen a variety of games, in particular RPGs, which are clearly ports of console games to PC, and that bothers me. I did not feel this when I played D3 for the first time (though I didn't like the skill interface for a variety of other reasons, but nothing related to consoles). I didn't feel the urge to pick up my game pad and throw away my keyboard.
-6 skills, yep. Plus a potion. Plus skill interface, inventory, follower, ... just open the key assignment panel, the number of keys you can assign somehow exceeds those of even the craziest game pads I have seen so far.
-Linearity: I've read of this dead horse a couple of times now, but I really don't get where people see "linearity" in Keep 2. In MP games it's virtually impossible to stay together in this madness of dead-end streets.
-Simple stats: what does this have to do with console games? There are more complex games on PC and on console, and there are simpler games on PC and on console. It's a design decision, and it's been made because balancing a few stats is easier than hundred different variables (and even though it's simpler it's still not balanced yet).
-Simple gear: same as stats. Btw, they need to change a lot for the console game by your logic, because D3 right now is all about spread sheets.
-4 players only: It's an arbitrary number they've chosen at some point, I think they even provided reasoning for that; but seriously, what would keep them to just reduce the number of players in the console version of the game? Nothing.
-Lack of game creation/names: Is SC2 also available on consoles right now? Because you don't have game names there, either. And to be honest, I don't miss them. "ONLY PROS PLX NO DL NO NOOBS JOIN DA MASTA" doesn't help me more than joining a random game on the act 3 quest to kill Azmodan. (Not saying the current system is better, but again it's just a different design decision and not one with consoles in mind.)
Battle.net, online-only, no local co-op play, no local storing of files (as necessary by Playstation guidelines as someone mentioned earlier), an interface that completely revolves around mouse use only and not a single thing about the interface that makes me want to pick up a game pad - these are my arguments for why D3 was not designed for a console. Oh, and btw, the proof that Greed1337 thankfully provided, showing that until 15 months ago they didn't even have console developers nor a clue about their direction for a console game.
Wow...really hard to take such an intelligent post serious with so many spelling errors, but I'll try...
Been a while since you played, huh? Your profile says last week. And nice Monk main, by the way. Love how you say the skill system is basically for simpletons, yet your Monk's skill loadout is cookie cutter to everyone else's Thunderclap/Overawe/Sweeping Wind routine. I'm sure a complex PC gamer like yourself must've taken a long time slotting those skills into their skill bar and feeling about as leet as every other schmuck wearing a Vile Ward, Inna's Helm, Chest and Pants, and Nat's boots.
Oh, and...I highly doubt you FOUND those items...which means you BOUGHT all the best items on the AH, AND are using a cookie cutter build on your main. Well done proving how "good" you are.
This is what happens so often. People insult this game and call it "simple," yet they take the easiest possible route to the end. Yes...anything you do where you take the easiest route to the end is going to look insanely simple. Diablo 2, there wasn't many easy routes, if there were any at all. Then again, you call out D3's "linear randomness" as a problem, yet somehow, Diablo 2's "randomly generated environments" were so much better? Giant squares where paths, objects and enemies were mixed up, and the only way to advance was to find the little opening to the next giant square? Yeah, that was impressive game design. And you do realize how many thousands of people MapHacked D2 so they didn't have to deal with random maps, right? I'm sure you do. Truth is, it's an easy parlor trick, plenty of other games replicated it, and many failed. D2 succeeded because of its solid gameplay and how much players could do with classes to build them.
They say they love how skill trees and stat points offer "permanent" choice. Yeah? And how many D2 players had a million different toons, rerolled and restarted a BILLION other toons? Because they like "permanent" choice? Eh. People power-leveling each other to 60 on a Saturday afternoon really downgraded that whole "permanence" thing.
You say the gear is simple, and that no one wants to use a spreadsheet on a console...implying that people who play PC games love spreadsheets? I'm sure you love hanging around spreadsheets while wearing a cookie cutter gear build like your Monk has on.
Look...keep underestimating this game and keep justifying its existence by implying it was designed for idiots who play console games. D2 was insanely simple, it was just hard for casuals to succeed at.
One of the reasons many people are "dissatisfied" with D3...because it's mainstream. If it were still an underground guilty pleasure, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. But it's had commercials on TV, much bigger promotion, and many more casuals are trying it out and liking it.
Why do you think so many people play Path of Exile? Because of its "complexity"? Or because they can feel totally hip in the gaming community because they're NOT playing mainstream Diablo?
The two reasons why Diablo sold so much over the years were waves when new information popped up about D3 and people bought the old game (I did so, too) and the game was so cheap that people just bought additional copies for more stash or whatever (I had three accounts, we even used one as a "shared stash" among my friends).
And the 11 million players distributed among D2 and SC were mostly playing SC ;-) Because at this point there was no SC2 yet and SC is the national sport of South Korea.
BUT... please don't rage, because:
your point is absolutely valid, D2 was not underground ever ;-) It was only played by a "few" people in the last ~5 years or so compared to D3 now, which is played by many kids and casual players. Well, at least for a while before they quit ;-)
Your press select to open up the menu screen. You use the D pad to move to the "Skills" tab. You plug in active skills into your unlocked slots. Compare this to trying to manage hunreds of varying levels of skill gems like in the original system. Wouldn't have been hard on a PC (play Path of Exile - the skill gems as items is great) but on a console, it would have NEVER worked.
You only need to easily use 6 skills in Diablo 3 - if you could build characters like some of my PoE characters that have 10+ active skills it wouldn't work on a Console. The 8 Primary buttons cover all of the instant availablity to use needs (6 skills + 2 Potions). All that other crap you list is available in the menu.. that you open by pressing start or select... its like you have never played a Console Game before? (possible)
Dead Horse? Ok. You think Diablo 3 isn't linear. I do. Fair enough. Different Opinions.
"Its made because ballancing a few stats is EASIER than a hundred different variables"
Bingo, thank you for re-stating my point. EVERY design choice went the rout of mindless and easy. What do console gamers like (The majority of them - like my brother I mention above)? Easy and simple. Again, my whole point here is that Diablo 3 was made for THESE people. People who like easy and mindless.
Wow.. what game are you playing that you need a spread sheet? There are no choices.. no meaningfull choices that require a spread sheet.
Path of Exile though? I've opened up a spread sheet 10+ times already. How much Mana and Energy Shield will I need to be able to run 5 Auras if I use the Eldritch Battery passive node? Wow thats alot! What level should I stop leveling up my auras so I can still run them with my desired amount of Mana? Questions.. complex questions like these dont exisit in Diablo 3.
To save development time? Thats whats frustrating to me. THIS feels like a case of: Diabl 3 was being pre-lauched for PC, for the actual console launhc. You are right, they could have left 6 players in the game. I'm saying (sure I could be tinfoil hatting) that this choice had just as much to do with "4 is best for console split screen" as it did with being good for the PC game, Diablo 3. Maybe more.
You can make games with names in SC2 - custom games!!
This is a Culture thing - does lack of game creating automatically mean bad game? Of course not! Thats what I didn't cry bloody murder in development about this topic. It does show that a certain mindset was present for D3's development, one that didn't have hard core PC gamers in mind.
Hard core PC gamers (the culture) expects certain things.. like being able to create game lobbies.
I'm sorry - you believe Jay Wilson's interview, and take that link as "proof" they didn't have a console team? Nothing that came out of Blizzard during development turned out to be correct or true. I'm not sure why you believe that. I don't buy that for one second. The powers that be (Bobby!!!) had this is mind for much much much longer than 15 months.
Thanks for putting forth the effort - I love it when people stoop to grammer insults
I'm a product of the fast paced world of gaming online - where spelling doesnt matter (only comprehension).
Yes, I did indeed log into see the new patch - quickly realized how pointless that was, and then went back to Path of Exile.
And yes, my monk is Cookie cutter - It wouldn't matter if I explained that my monk was built that way since Launch day, and that my Monk probably was one of the first Monks to use that load out.. so I won't bother. I'm not sure I see what you arguing here?
Are you saying that if I really wanted a more hardcore game I would be using an inferior load out, that requires nothing more than swapping some skills around on my next load up? If you are arguing that then I have nothing to add ..
Except this.. your comments are just doing nothing but backing up what I'm saying. I don't feel any diffeernt than anyother smuck Monk out there. And even if I was different, what would it matter? Some one else can just switch their skills over to mine any way.
OF COURSE I didn't find those items. Fosh no! I found my Inna's helm if I remeber correctly. The rest I saved gold for and bought. THis is another WHOLE arguement about why I don't like diablo 3 that I won't get in to because I think its off topic. But, the Acution house (Gold one too) is a cancer in Diablo 3. Sucked all the fun out of it for me. Again thanks for making more points for me.
Again, I took this build because its the best (I didnt read about the build, I made the build.. its not hard.. of course its not.. its Diablo 3). I'm not the type of gamer, by the way, do go make a new character on MP10 and use crapy skills just to say i did. At least no in this game. Its just not built that way.
But in a game like Poe!? I have 12 characters already.. all of them different. All of them with different gear needs. All of them unique. Its actualy fun to pick a skill and figure out a way to make it over powered. Why? Because its a complex game. I'm not going to try to jery rig diablo 3 into being complex.. thats a differnt way to play that I'm not interested in.
Here we go.. justifying Diablo 3's short falls by saying "well diablo 2 didn't do that good at all". I'm done with that game. I'm not talking about Diablo 2 - other than I revere it like no other game.
Again.. Look at Path of Exile rather than Diablo 2. Character build Permance (to me - I acknowledge its a prefernce) gives a game massive amounts of replayability.
LoL.. you don't even read. I never, not once, felt the need to use a spread sheet while playing diablo 3. Yes, i do love to use spread sheets. I do ALOT in path of exile.
No.. you have that backwards. I overestimated this game. for 2+ years I overestimated how good it would be. I had faith it would stick to its roots. i had faith it would take thought (somthing my perfect example of a cookie cutter monk shows) to build characters. None of that faith proved warented. So no, I'm finsihed OVERestimating this game. No underestimating going on here. If anything, I still have a shred of hope that the game gets overhauled in an expansion.. that is the truly niave fanboy in my still wishing Blizzard got it right with D3.
One of the first things you've said that I agree with. Mainstream is exactly why Im dissatisfied with Diablo 3. But its not simply because its "mainstream" - mainstream isn't bad (Diablo 2 was mainstream!) its because the defination of "mainstream" in this case is "for the masses" - or to get back to my topic point "For console gamers".
Argh.. makes me sick.
Its like this.. even people who "dont agree with me" (these people like Diablo 3, and are offended by the statement that its deisgned for consoles) say things like this.. that totally back up the fact that its made for a console.
ergonomic design??? Thats what I want in my PC game for sure ..
The fact thats its ported to console isn't what got me.. its the realization that its DEVELOPED for consoles - with an obvsious (IMO) biased to that community over the PC community.
The fact that you think D3 was DEVELOPED for consoles is proof that you are severely detached from reality.
This idea that simplified game controls or mechanics are inherently bad is just PC-gamer self-congratulation wearing a crayon-lettered name-tag saying "Ima gaem critic, no srsly". Being a PC gamer doesn't make you a member of some exclusive club that gets a free +10 int perk... hell, identifying as a "PC gamer" is, IMO, a red flag. You either love games, or you don't... and if you do, don't be so goddam hipster about it. "Oh ya, I was, like, into Blizzard before they sold out.", "I only game on hand-made artisan PCs with ingredients sourced directly from Cybertron."
/puke
Oh this didn't change my opinion of the game - I've thought it was not a good game for a loong loong time now. This just made it more clear why. To me any way.
Ok. Any more to add there buddy?
I can only comment on the reality I'm seeing play out in front of my eyes. That reality points to Diablo 3 being aimed at simper console gamer's for a long long long time.
I'm just calling it like I see it.
The TL;DR on this is just move on. This whole thread is terrible, it contains no evidence, only conjecture and about post 4-5 it starts being something that could have been copy/pasted from the bliz threads.
I have a PS3, an Xbox, a PS2, had a Dream Cast.. I'm certainly BOTH a console gamer and a PC gamer.
Are there hardcore games on consoles? OF COURSE! (I point to Darksouls or Demon Souls)
But you rambling response doesn't give me anything to take seriously.
Simple of course doesn't automatically = bad. There are simple games that are great! (Tetris anyone?)
But taking what should be a complex game and simplifying it down to what diablo 3 is, isn't good design. it was targeting a larger audience.. one that I argue is console gamers first and foremost.
And - i say again - I gave 2 years of my life to this game (pre launch). I used to joke with my family that I spent more time "thinking about playing" Diablo 3 than I did actualy playing other games during development.
So yes, I feel i have the right, complete with my crayon colored name tag, to comment on how much I think the game failed.