Primaries are not covering anything, They don't deal too much dmg, They don't generate the resource builds need, They don't give anything more than wasting time casting them.
You've pretty much covered what I think is the main issue with them, and I agree with you on this - the fact that many players think they're just a waste of time.
I think that's exactly the problem I have with them, at the moment. For a skill that's called 'primary', they don't feel like it, and at higher levels of play, they seem extraneous. Now, I might be wrong, but judging from your reply you're completely okay with this state of things, apart from maybe tweaking the resource generation they produce. Which is perfectly valid - I'm not saying my opinion is better than yours in any way.
My take is that fixing resource generation doesn't really help much - that between passives and legendaries, a primary skill can always be replaced with either a dps buff or a damage mitigation skill. If, say, Bolas suddenly generated 10 Hatred a pop tomorrow, I sincerely doubt that Demon Hunters will suddenly replace their Kridershots, remove Prep from their hotbar, or stop using Bats. Because you can't hit with a primary and a spender at the same time, and in the current state of play, the spender will typically win out.
If you view primaries as simply something to be left behind as gear improves, it's certainly a valid argument. However, Blizzard seems to keep trying to find ways to elevate primary skills to higher relevance - see Simplicity's Strength, Depth Diggers, or the recently revamped Thousand Storms. Somewhere, someone in the dev team certainly thinks that primaries should at least be an option at late game play.
Having them generate defense effects is a pretty good idea that I could get behind. Punish is a key example of this, and we haven't even gotten to its built-in synergy with Shield Bash and Blessed Shield. I doubt that people would choose to use primaries simply for this, though, because again, you can replace it with a better and real defense buff. But at the same time, a primary that could realistically compete with, say, Ignore Pain while still dealing damage would be untenable. I keep going back to the spender synergies idea because at the end of the day, everyone has a damage spell (except maybe for ZDps builds, but even Piranhas deal a pretty good chunk of AoE).
Maybe you just don't care for primary skills, and that's all right. I for one though, think they can still be changed to become more interesting and fun to play with. Damage might not be the solution, but I still believe the key to doing that are synergies that occur with spender interaction.
To sum up, the idea of turnig them into a better option is good, the idea of buffing them is wrong.
How would you accomplish this? If by 'buffing them' you mean simply tuning their damage upwards, then I am in complete agreement. Are you saying though, that they shouldn't provide non-dps utility either? If so, then in your opinion, how would you make them better?
Thanks to everyone that supports the idea (and even to everyone that doesn't, because you're keeping the discussion going)!
I wanted to share a few more thoughts on the concept. Originally, the idea was an outgrowth of 'wouldn't it be cool if Monks had stances?' While the Mantras already in game might make that idea seem redundant, the fact is that Mantras were originally an outgrowth of the Paladin Auras concept, not to mention something that affects your allies, which logically a martial art stance wouldn't. It might have been easier to just make it a skill, so you could press a button and go into that stance, but it seems much more interesting gameplay-wise if it involved having to perform a certain number of attacks, first. An obvious source of this concept is Lei Wulong from Tekken (and to a lesser extent, any stancedancing character from any Namco fighting game).
It's entirely possible to just make 'stances' a passive, too, but again this would have high competition from other monk passives, exacerbated by the fact that you have even less passive slots than actives.
A valid and logical objection to this idea is complexity - introducing such an idea to primary skills, which are an integral part of low level play, could intimidate the casual and/or beginning player. On the other hand, I'd argue that the average casual these days are capable of handling such a concept. The usual gamestyle in the beginning is 'generate -> dump' anyway, and the beginning player would be reaping the benefits of the primary rework regardless of if they're doing it consciously. Besides, the typical casual these days is capable of much more advanced gaming concepts than what was possible even 3 years ago - if you don't think they understand resource management, just look at Plants Vs. Zombies or even Clash Of Clans.
Another objection to the idea is power creep. Unlike the previous one, this is a much more reasonable worry. While I believe that keeping the related damage bonuses reasonably lower than that of 'true' damage buffs will mitigate this issue - there are only so many dps skills you can keep on your action bar before survivability becomes a problem - it's a relatively valid concern. Who knows - new legendaries may be built in the future that will throw numbers all out of whack.
I still believe that being forced to choose between the current primaries and a damage buff, a high level D3 player will always come down on the damage buff if he can get away with it. It's less button management, for one thing. Even if this proposed system is implemented, I doubt this will completely change that mindset, but it will at least promote build diversity, which is really all I'm looking for. Wyatt Cheng himself once said that, all the way back in 1.05 vanilla, that one of his goals was to promote diversity.
I still need to reiterate this: I'm not chained to the numbers. If the damage buffs/secondary damage effects can be proven to be excessive when compared to an existing buff (Battle Rage, Breath of Heaven - Blazing Wrath, Wolf Companions, etc.), by all means, remove them. I like the idea of a secondary damage trigger, if only as another source of LoH/effect proc, but again, it doesn't have to be set in stone. If the solution is in improving healing/utility/mitigation/movement synergies with spenders instead of damage, then let's focus on that. Whatever it takes to make primaries much more interesting and relevant to the game than being 'just the resource generator'.
It's an interesting thought. You make some valid points - primaries and spenders do need tweaking, and Mammoth Hydra is a massive outlier in terms of free dps - but I still think gameplay and build diversity is better served with examining and reworking the primaries, which seem to be the foundation for the rest of D3's design.
Everyone likes more legendaries, but I'm afraid that working from that angle would render the pace of change to be glacial, as Blizzard comes out with them every season, it seems like. I also think that using this method, the usage of primary skills would feel much more interesting and fun than they currently are. But you clearly don't seem to agree, and that's perfectly fine.
Final Conclusion: Your assertion that builds using primary skills are underrepresented or underperforming is flawed. They are only underrepresented on a per-class basis at the highest levels of progression within any given class. In reality most classes have both spender and primary builds performing similarly and the primary difference in representation is driven almost entirely by itemization (and some primaries being weak)....
Now if you think having utility on primaries would get them a slot in "spender" builds then actually suggest some utility effects (rather than free damage, which is what every one of the suggestions I read are)...
I don't have the hard data that Blizzard has, and I've be very interested to see your own sources so I can make comparisons. Saying that the highest levels of progression isn't a valid sample doesn't strike me as entirely correct, though. Many people in this game want to progress, and the top performers are an example of the kind of skills and items that make it to the leaderboards. Not everyone will have their gear and skills, but people will want those gear and skills. While the so-called majority of people playing may still use primaries in the traditional way, I've already made the point that it's typically the lower-end or very casual player that does so in my post. By definition, these people would be the majority (at least I haven't seen any data that says something to the effect of "75% of D3 players have all placed in 50+ GRifts").
The secondary effects I made up for the Intelligence classes, if you read them, are mostly utility - life on hit, damage mitigation, immobilize, charm, etc. The Crusader Vows are tied to damage mitigation (i.e. the tank fantasy), while the DH Marks have a movement/attack slow and a damage debuff. Like I said in the post, I'm neither wedded to the numbers and I don't claim the effects are the perfect solution. If removing the damage synergies to spenders would be an improvement, so be it, but it seems to me that whatever button a player would choose over the primary is typically something that enhances DPS anyway. I don't see why, with such a binary choice, giving a player a wider selection is in any way a negative thing.
In any case, I see that you don't like the ideas, which is perfectly fine. Again, I'm just wondering if you have any concrete proposals of your own, which would be interesting to see. Otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'd respectfully disagree on a few key points. I'm using DiabloProgress to take a look at a sample of the builds being used for non-Seasonal, where people have had enough time to build the sets that they want. I don't really look at the Seasonal boards because of the smaller amount of time involved, where more people get "what's good now". The top barb on hardcore does use a Primary skill, but he uses the Frenzy-Vanguard rune, which goes with my argument that people are looking for more utility from primary skills rather than just pure damage output. Meanwhile, on Softcore, there's a grand total of 5 people who aren't Demon Hunters in the top 20, the only 1 of which who uses a primary is a Carnevil doctor who's number 17 as I write this and 8 places below the Primary-less Jade Doctor.
I do agree that the sets coming out, with the possible exception of Thousand Storms, have been spender heavy, as well as resource being much too easy to get these days. However, spenders do seem to be more popular with people, probably because they're much flashier and visually more impressive. This is fine, though, and I'm not arguing that we go back to early vanilla D3 where the idea was to use Primaries half of the time and spenders just as a resource dump. Your mileage may vary, though, and if you don't think that utility is the answer, then what is? Nerf all resource generating non-primary skills? I'm not scoffing at the idea, though, I'm just genuinely curious if you have a concrete proposal.
As an aside, it's interesting that you've brought up Tal Rasha's - my main is a Wizard, and the Triumvirate/Tal set is what gave me the inspiration for this skill rework to begin with.
Thanks! I forgot to mention - I added the Passive skill reworks as well since Intelligence classes have problems with building primary skill-based specs. Things like Mirrorball and Carnevil have fallen by the wayside now that Zunimassa's and Tal Rasha's have been greatly improved.
The current place that primary skills occupy in Diablo 3 is a curious one.Originally, they were meant to generate resource for spenders, or in the case of the Intelligence classes, to be cast while waiting for resources to refill. In the present time, this situation only exists at the lower levels of play, generally for new accounts and/or players.
At mid-to-endgame levels, the differences between primary skills and spenders become much more pronounced, eventually splitting into two different types of spec: one that focuses on primary skills as a source of damage (via legendaries, Depth Diggers, and the Simplicity's Strength gem) and another, more common type, that focuses on spenders. The second type of spec typically dispenses with primary skills (See Kridershot, Shotgun, Wasteland WW, Firebird's, Jade Doctor, Tempest Rush) and achieves resource regeneration through other sources.
While each type of spec on its own is certainly valid, and certainly fun to play, this state of things ignores the loss of potential build variety. The reason behind it is simple - because of having limited button space, primary skills fight for justifying themselves on a character's action bar. When most people generally build around their spenders, primaries are the first thing to go, for the obvious reason that two active damage skills cannot be cast at the same time. With that mindset, it is much easier and more logical to remove the primary and replace it with another skill that either generates resource, mitigates damage taken, or improves damage output.
Frequently, skills can be found that combines two or more of these, completely rendering primary skills outdated.
Blizzard's response to this has been to increase the damage output of primary skills in some way. In one patch, their baseline damage was raised. In another, legendaries were introduced to further increase it. In yet another, their baseline resource generation was improved.
Unfortunately, this still does not address the true issue, which is that primary skills suffer from too much competition as a damage output skill.
Keeping that in mind, it would seem that a more effective way to make primary skills more relevant is not simply to increase damage or resource generation. Rather, the UTILITY of primary skills should be improved, giving it SYNERGY with resource spenders in the same way Battle Rage or Conviction or Magic Weapon does. While that should be a primary focus, non-dps related utility is also a factor, as the higher levels of GRift now forces players to seriously consider damage mitigation. In a way, movement and healing is also a form of damage mitigation and should be considered in such discussions.
In other words, primary skills should provide more than raw damage output, and should directly synergize with resource spenders in order to keep them as a relevant option in high level play.
Listed below are a number of ideas for changes to primary skills.Keep in mind that the numbers are rough napkin math, and by no means should be taken as a concrete proposal. Nor do I claim that these ideas are perfect and cannot be improved or even changed. However, I do hope that they spark discussion into the idea of improving primary skills in way that goes beyond simply increasing damage numbers.
*****
Barbarian: Each hit with a primary skill grants the Barbarian Anger. The Anger stacks up to 100. Your next Fury Spender has its damage increased by 1% per Anger stack and consumes all stacks. You cannot have more than 1 Anger active at any time.
Bash -
Bul-Kathos' Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 50% increased damage whenever it hits a single target.
Cleave -
Korlic's Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 75% of your area damage whenever it hits 3 or more targets.
Frenzy -
Talic's Anger: Your Fury Spenders refresh your Frenzy duration at its current number of stacks.
Weapon Throw -
Madawc's Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 50% increased damage whenever it hits a target more than 10 yards yards away from you.
*****
Crusader: Each hit with a primary skill grants the Crusader a Vow. The Vow lasts for 5 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 Vow active at any time.
Punish -
Defender's Vow: Your Punish skill increases your Block chance by 15% (This is simply the normal secondary effect of Punish, reworded using the Vow system). Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 200% of your Shield Block chance as weapon damage.
Slash -
Champion's Vow: Your Slash skill increases your melee damage reduction by 10%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 300% of your melee damage reduction as weapon damage to enemies within 15 yards.
Smite -
Militant's Vow: Your Smite skill increases your crowd control reduction by 20%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 250% of your crowd control reduction as weapon damage split between all targets hit.
Justice -
Arbiter's Vow: Your Justice skill increases your ranged damage reduction by 10%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 300% of your ranged damage reduction as weapon damage to enemies further than 15 yards.
*****
Demon Hunter: Each hit with a primary skill Marks a target. This Mark stacks up to 3 times and lasts for 6 seconds (The Mark does not refresh). You cannot have more than 1 of your Marks active on a target at any time.
Hungering Arrow -
Tracker's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to bleed for 75% weapon damage for each Mark.
Entangling Shot -
Constable's Mark: Your Hatred spenders slows the Marked target's movement and attack speed by 15% for each Mark.
Bolas -
Raider's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to deal your area damage to enemies within 5 yards. This range is increased by the number of Marks.
Evasive Fire -
Acrobat's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to miss 10% of its attacks per Mark.
Grenade -
Demolitionist's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to drop one grenade per Mark that deals 50% weapon damage. This grenade is affected by all passive skills and legendary affixes that affect the Grenade primary skill.
*****
Monk: The third hit of your primary skills causes you to go into a Stance. This Stance lasts for 4 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 Stance active at any time.
Fist of Thunder -
Flowing Serpent Stance: Your Spirit spenders creates a blast of energy that deals 300% weapon damage split among all enemies hit.
Deadly Reach -
Grasping Spider Stance: Your Spirit spenders deal 10% more damage to enemies under movement-impairing effects.
Crippling Wave -
Crashing Tiger Stance: Your Spirit spenders that deal damage to three or more enemies deal your area damage to each. The range of this area damage is increased by your Pickup Radius.
Way of A Hundred Fists -
Thousand Mantis Stance: Your Spirit spenders have 20% increased attack speed.
Passive Skill Change - Combination Strike
Stance Dance: Whenever you change from one stance into another, you deal 10% increased damage for the next 6 seconds.
*****
Witch Doctor: Your Primary skills summon a Fetish Assistant. The Fetish Assistant counts as a Fetish Sycophant for all skills and legendary affixes that affect Fetishes. The Fetish Assistant lasts for 5 seconds. You may only have 1 Fetish Assistant active.
Poison Dart -
Spirit Guide: The Spirit Guide attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Poison Dart. Your Mana spenders cost 10% less while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Corpse Spiders -
Dream Chanter: The Dream Chanter attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Corpse Spiders. Your Mana spenders have a 5% chance to Charm while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Plague of Toads -
Trance Healer: The Trance Healer attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Plague of Toads. Your Mana spenders have 1000 Life On Hit while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Firebomb -
Soul Retriever: The Soul Retriever attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Firebomb. Your Mana spenders have a 5% chance to drop Health Globes while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Passive Skill Change - Vision Quest
When you deal damage with Corpse Spiders, Firebomb, Plague of Toads, or Poison Dart, your Mana regeneration is increased by 30% for 5 seconds. Your primary skills are now considered to be resource generators.
*****
Wizard: Targets hit by your primary skill are affected by Malediction. Malediction lasts for 5 seconds. Targets affected by Malediction that are hit by an Arcane Power spender take 250% weapon damage over 5 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 of your Maledictions active on a target at any time.
Magic Missile -
Mystic Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders have a chance to restore 1 Arcane Power when it hits an affected target.
Shock Pulse -
Boisterous Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders have a chance to immobilize an affected target for 1 second.
Spectral Blade -
Phantom Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders causes the affected target to deal 10% less damage.
Electrocute -
Thunderous Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders causes the affected target to deal your area damage.
Passive Skill Change - Prodigy
When you cast a Signature spell, you gain 5 Arcane Power. Your Signature spells are now considered to be resource generators.
Players looking for a relaxed, mature environment welcome; all classes accepted, mostly doing SC with some seasonal action. Officers are high level and willing to help with leveling and rift runs.
Clan is smallish at the moment because we're in the process of rebuilding, after weeding out the inactives. But the officers are active usually on a daily basis. If you're okay with that, then welcome! PM Lezard#6347 for an invite!
I think that exploding palm now can work really good with cold rune and az'turrasq fist you can do 12,000% dmg for each enemie that dies having the palm over him... So if you grab a mob and use seven strike sides (with madstone) you have around 5-7 palms around you which can turn to a 60,000% weapon damage... Isn't it great?
Maybe it isn't 50% life of the monster at higher grift but it still something usefull.
And now the play style is to grab easy monsters and kill and not to grab hard monsters and kill them, since killing a hard one vs a easy one does the same damage at the explosion.
My post wasn't debating whether the damage changes to EP were good; I was posting about changing the way it targets or works on already affected targets.
Exploding Palm's gone through some interesting changes over the PTR - imo, the switch from monster life to weapon damage is a good one. While it'll largely kill off support monk, it's still better for making Exploding Palm more competitive without making it too strong for Greater Rifts and Leaderboards.
However, the main problem with Exploding Palm hasn't really been its damage output - the main problem is its wonky mechanic that feels out of place in an ARPG.
Exploding Palm is a single target dot with a significant resource cost, even taking the Spirit generation improvements into account. Casting EP on an already affected target only refreshes the duration, which is generally a waste of time and Spirit. Trying to avoid recasting it on the same target requires significant effort, and with the creature density and mobility of D3, is generally a futile one.
IMO, EP should be changed in a way to avoid this pitfall. I have a number of suggestions.
1) QOL improvement - the game should prevent you from reapplying EP until it's within 1 or 2 seconds of expiring. If you're clicking on an already affected monster, it should retarget your EP to the next closest unaffected mob.
2) Mechanic change - Reapplying EP should refund half the spirit cost back, since the only benefit you're getting out of it is refreshing the DoT.
3) Rework - When reapplying EP, not only does it refresh the DoT, it immediately deals damage to the target (ONLY the target) equal to, say, 50% of the remaining DoT damage. So if you cast an unruned EP, let it tick for 3 seconds, you would do about 200% weapon damage to the target only. This makes accidentally recasting EP on the same target less punishing, and makes it more effective against single targets, making it more of a true spender.
Does anyone know off the top of their heads how Dex and raw damage correlate? I have a fresh, unmodded Helltrapper on my second DH with mediocre Dex and damage rolls. Which one would be better to reroll?
0
You've pretty much covered what I think is the main issue with them, and I agree with you on this - the fact that many players think they're just a waste of time.
I think that's exactly the problem I have with them, at the moment. For a skill that's called 'primary', they don't feel like it, and at higher levels of play, they seem extraneous. Now, I might be wrong, but judging from your reply you're completely okay with this state of things, apart from maybe tweaking the resource generation they produce. Which is perfectly valid - I'm not saying my opinion is better than yours in any way.
My take is that fixing resource generation doesn't really help much - that between passives and legendaries, a primary skill can always be replaced with either a dps buff or a damage mitigation skill. If, say, Bolas suddenly generated 10 Hatred a pop tomorrow, I sincerely doubt that Demon Hunters will suddenly replace their Kridershots, remove Prep from their hotbar, or stop using Bats. Because you can't hit with a primary and a spender at the same time, and in the current state of play, the spender will typically win out.
If you view primaries as simply something to be left behind as gear improves, it's certainly a valid argument. However, Blizzard seems to keep trying to find ways to elevate primary skills to higher relevance - see Simplicity's Strength, Depth Diggers, or the recently revamped Thousand Storms. Somewhere, someone in the dev team certainly thinks that primaries should at least be an option at late game play.
Having them generate defense effects is a pretty good idea that I could get behind. Punish is a key example of this, and we haven't even gotten to its built-in synergy with Shield Bash and Blessed Shield. I doubt that people would choose to use primaries simply for this, though, because again, you can replace it with a better and real defense buff. But at the same time, a primary that could realistically compete with, say, Ignore Pain while still dealing damage would be untenable. I keep going back to the spender synergies idea because at the end of the day, everyone has a damage spell (except maybe for ZDps builds, but even Piranhas deal a pretty good chunk of AoE).
Maybe you just don't care for primary skills, and that's all right. I for one though, think they can still be changed to become more interesting and fun to play with. Damage might not be the solution, but I still believe the key to doing that are synergies that occur with spender interaction.
0
How would you accomplish this? If by 'buffing them' you mean simply tuning their damage upwards, then I am in complete agreement. Are you saying though, that they shouldn't provide non-dps utility either? If so, then in your opinion, how would you make them better?
0
Thanks to everyone that supports the idea (and even to everyone that doesn't, because you're keeping the discussion going)!
I wanted to share a few more thoughts on the concept. Originally, the idea was an outgrowth of 'wouldn't it be cool if Monks had stances?' While the Mantras already in game might make that idea seem redundant, the fact is that Mantras were originally an outgrowth of the Paladin Auras concept, not to mention something that affects your allies, which logically a martial art stance wouldn't. It might have been easier to just make it a skill, so you could press a button and go into that stance, but it seems much more interesting gameplay-wise if it involved having to perform a certain number of attacks, first. An obvious source of this concept is Lei Wulong from Tekken (and to a lesser extent, any stancedancing character from any Namco fighting game).
It's entirely possible to just make 'stances' a passive, too, but again this would have high competition from other monk passives, exacerbated by the fact that you have even less passive slots than actives.
A valid and logical objection to this idea is complexity - introducing such an idea to primary skills, which are an integral part of low level play, could intimidate the casual and/or beginning player. On the other hand, I'd argue that the average casual these days are capable of handling such a concept. The usual gamestyle in the beginning is 'generate -> dump' anyway, and the beginning player would be reaping the benefits of the primary rework regardless of if they're doing it consciously. Besides, the typical casual these days is capable of much more advanced gaming concepts than what was possible even 3 years ago - if you don't think they understand resource management, just look at Plants Vs. Zombies or even Clash Of Clans.
Another objection to the idea is power creep. Unlike the previous one, this is a much more reasonable worry. While I believe that keeping the related damage bonuses reasonably lower than that of 'true' damage buffs will mitigate this issue - there are only so many dps skills you can keep on your action bar before survivability becomes a problem - it's a relatively valid concern. Who knows - new legendaries may be built in the future that will throw numbers all out of whack.
I still believe that being forced to choose between the current primaries and a damage buff, a high level D3 player will always come down on the damage buff if he can get away with it. It's less button management, for one thing. Even if this proposed system is implemented, I doubt this will completely change that mindset, but it will at least promote build diversity, which is really all I'm looking for. Wyatt Cheng himself once said that, all the way back in 1.05 vanilla, that one of his goals was to promote diversity.
I still need to reiterate this: I'm not chained to the numbers. If the damage buffs/secondary damage effects can be proven to be excessive when compared to an existing buff (Battle Rage, Breath of Heaven - Blazing Wrath, Wolf Companions, etc.), by all means, remove them. I like the idea of a secondary damage trigger, if only as another source of LoH/effect proc, but again, it doesn't have to be set in stone. If the solution is in improving healing/utility/mitigation/movement synergies with spenders instead of damage, then let's focus on that. Whatever it takes to make primaries much more interesting and relevant to the game than being 'just the resource generator'.
0
It's an interesting thought. You make some valid points - primaries and spenders do need tweaking, and Mammoth Hydra is a massive outlier in terms of free dps - but I still think gameplay and build diversity is better served with examining and reworking the primaries, which seem to be the foundation for the rest of D3's design.
Everyone likes more legendaries, but I'm afraid that working from that angle would render the pace of change to be glacial, as Blizzard comes out with them every season, it seems like. I also think that using this method, the usage of primary skills would feel much more interesting and fun than they currently are. But you clearly don't seem to agree, and that's perfectly fine.
0
I don't have the hard data that Blizzard has, and I've be very interested to see your own sources so I can make comparisons. Saying that the highest levels of progression isn't a valid sample doesn't strike me as entirely correct, though. Many people in this game want to progress, and the top performers are an example of the kind of skills and items that make it to the leaderboards. Not everyone will have their gear and skills, but people will want those gear and skills. While the so-called majority of people playing may still use primaries in the traditional way, I've already made the point that it's typically the lower-end or very casual player that does so in my post. By definition, these people would be the majority (at least I haven't seen any data that says something to the effect of "75% of D3 players have all placed in 50+ GRifts").
The secondary effects I made up for the Intelligence classes, if you read them, are mostly utility - life on hit, damage mitigation, immobilize, charm, etc. The Crusader Vows are tied to damage mitigation (i.e. the tank fantasy), while the DH Marks have a movement/attack slow and a damage debuff. Like I said in the post, I'm neither wedded to the numbers and I don't claim the effects are the perfect solution. If removing the damage synergies to spenders would be an improvement, so be it, but it seems to me that whatever button a player would choose over the primary is typically something that enhances DPS anyway. I don't see why, with such a binary choice, giving a player a wider selection is in any way a negative thing.
In any case, I see that you don't like the ideas, which is perfectly fine. Again, I'm just wondering if you have any concrete proposals of your own, which would be interesting to see. Otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
2
I'd respectfully disagree on a few key points. I'm using DiabloProgress to take a look at a sample of the builds being used for non-Seasonal, where people have had enough time to build the sets that they want. I don't really look at the Seasonal boards because of the smaller amount of time involved, where more people get "what's good now". The top barb on hardcore does use a Primary skill, but he uses the Frenzy-Vanguard rune, which goes with my argument that people are looking for more utility from primary skills rather than just pure damage output. Meanwhile, on Softcore, there's a grand total of 5 people who aren't Demon Hunters in the top 20, the only 1 of which who uses a primary is a Carnevil doctor who's number 17 as I write this and 8 places below the Primary-less Jade Doctor.
I do agree that the sets coming out, with the possible exception of Thousand Storms, have been spender heavy, as well as resource being much too easy to get these days. However, spenders do seem to be more popular with people, probably because they're much flashier and visually more impressive. This is fine, though, and I'm not arguing that we go back to early vanilla D3 where the idea was to use Primaries half of the time and spenders just as a resource dump. Your mileage may vary, though, and if you don't think that utility is the answer, then what is? Nerf all resource generating non-primary skills? I'm not scoffing at the idea, though, I'm just genuinely curious if you have a concrete proposal.
As an aside, it's interesting that you've brought up Tal Rasha's - my main is a Wizard, and the Triumvirate/Tal set is what gave me the inspiration for this skill rework to begin with.
0
Thanks! I forgot to mention - I added the Passive skill reworks as well since Intelligence classes have problems with building primary skill-based specs. Things like Mirrorball and Carnevil have fallen by the wayside now that Zunimassa's and Tal Rasha's have been greatly improved.
4
This post is originally taken from my blog - http://archmagelezard.blogspot.com/2015/05/primary-skills-reboot-idea.html
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Primary Skills Rework Idea
The current place that primary skills occupy in Diablo 3 is a curious one. Originally, they were meant to generate resource for spenders, or in the case of the Intelligence classes, to be cast while waiting for resources to refill. In the present time, this situation only exists at the lower levels of play, generally for new accounts and/or players.
At mid-to-endgame levels, the differences between primary skills and spenders become much more pronounced, eventually splitting into two different types of spec: one that focuses on primary skills as a source of damage (via legendaries, Depth Diggers, and the Simplicity's Strength gem) and another, more common type, that focuses on spenders. The second type of spec typically dispenses with primary skills (See Kridershot, Shotgun, Wasteland WW, Firebird's, Jade Doctor, Tempest Rush) and achieves resource regeneration through other sources.
While each type of spec on its own is certainly valid, and certainly fun to play, this state of things ignores the loss of potential build variety. The reason behind it is simple - because of having limited button space, primary skills fight for justifying themselves on a character's action bar. When most people generally build around their spenders, primaries are the first thing to go, for the obvious reason that two active damage skills cannot be cast at the same time. With that mindset, it is much easier and more logical to remove the primary and replace it with another skill that either generates resource, mitigates damage taken, or improves damage output.
Frequently, skills can be found that combines two or more of these, completely rendering primary skills outdated.
Blizzard's response to this has been to increase the damage output of primary skills in some way. In one patch, their baseline damage was raised. In another, legendaries were introduced to further increase it. In yet another, their baseline resource generation was improved.
Unfortunately, this still does not address the true issue, which is that primary skills suffer from too much competition as a damage output skill.
Keeping that in mind, it would seem that a more effective way to make primary skills more relevant is not simply to increase damage or resource generation. Rather, the UTILITY of primary skills should be improved, giving it SYNERGY with resource spenders in the same way Battle Rage or Conviction or Magic Weapon does. While that should be a primary focus, non-dps related utility is also a factor, as the higher levels of GRift now forces players to seriously consider damage mitigation. In a way, movement and healing is also a form of damage mitigation and should be considered in such discussions.
In other words, primary skills should provide more than raw damage output, and should directly synergize with resource spenders in order to keep them as a relevant option in high level play.
Listed below are a number of ideas for changes to primary skills. Keep in mind that the numbers are rough napkin math, and by no means should be taken as a concrete proposal. Nor do I claim that these ideas are perfect and cannot be improved or even changed. However, I do hope that they spark discussion into the idea of improving primary skills in way that goes beyond simply increasing damage numbers.
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Barbarian: Each hit with a primary skill grants the Barbarian Anger. The Anger stacks up to 100. Your next Fury Spender has its damage increased by 1% per Anger stack and consumes all stacks. You cannot have more than 1 Anger active at any time.
Bash -
Bul-Kathos' Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 50% increased damage whenever it hits a single target.
Cleave -
Korlic's Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 75% of your area damage whenever it hits 3 or more targets.
Frenzy -
Talic's Anger: Your Fury Spenders refresh your Frenzy duration at its current number of stacks.
Weapon Throw -
Madawc's Anger: Your Fury Spenders deal 50% increased damage whenever it hits a target more than 10 yards yards away from you.
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Crusader: Each hit with a primary skill grants the Crusader a Vow. The Vow lasts for 5 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 Vow active at any time.
Punish -
Defender's Vow: Your Punish skill increases your Block chance by 15% (This is simply the normal secondary effect of Punish, reworded using the Vow system). Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 200% of your Shield Block chance as weapon damage.
Slash -
Champion's Vow: Your Slash skill increases your melee damage reduction by 10%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 300% of your melee damage reduction as weapon damage to enemies within 15 yards.
Smite -
Militant's Vow: Your Smite skill increases your crowd control reduction by 20%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 250% of your crowd control reduction as weapon damage split between all targets hit.
Justice -
Arbiter's Vow: Your Justice skill increases your ranged damage reduction by 10%. Your Wrath Spenders deal an additional 300% of your ranged damage reduction as weapon damage to enemies further than 15 yards.
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Demon Hunter: Each hit with a primary skill Marks a target. This Mark stacks up to 3 times and lasts for 6 seconds (The Mark does not refresh). You cannot have more than 1 of your Marks active on a target at any time.
Hungering Arrow -
Tracker's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to bleed for 75% weapon damage for each Mark.
Entangling Shot -
Constable's Mark: Your Hatred spenders slows the Marked target's movement and attack speed by 15% for each Mark.
Bolas -
Raider's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to deal your area damage to enemies within 5 yards. This range is increased by the number of Marks.
Evasive Fire -
Acrobat's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to miss 10% of its attacks per Mark.
Grenade -
Demolitionist's Mark: Your Hatred spenders causes the Marked target to drop one grenade per Mark that deals 50% weapon damage. This grenade is affected by all passive skills and legendary affixes that affect the Grenade primary skill.
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Monk: The third hit of your primary skills causes you to go into a Stance. This Stance lasts for 4 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 Stance active at any time.
Fist of Thunder -
Flowing Serpent Stance: Your Spirit spenders creates a blast of energy that deals 300% weapon damage split among all enemies hit.
Deadly Reach -
Grasping Spider Stance: Your Spirit spenders deal 10% more damage to enemies under movement-impairing effects.
Crippling Wave -
Crashing Tiger Stance: Your Spirit spenders that deal damage to three or more enemies deal your area damage to each. The range of this area damage is increased by your Pickup Radius.
Way of A Hundred Fists -
Thousand Mantis Stance: Your Spirit spenders have 20% increased attack speed.
Passive Skill Change - Combination Strike
Stance Dance: Whenever you change from one stance into another, you deal 10% increased damage for the next 6 seconds.
*****
Witch Doctor: Your Primary skills summon a Fetish Assistant. The Fetish Assistant counts as a Fetish Sycophant for all skills and legendary affixes that affect Fetishes. The Fetish Assistant lasts for 5 seconds. You may only have 1 Fetish Assistant active.
Poison Dart -
Spirit Guide: The Spirit Guide attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Poison Dart. Your Mana spenders cost 10% less while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Corpse Spiders -
Dream Chanter: The Dream Chanter attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Corpse Spiders. Your Mana spenders have a 5% chance to Charm while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Plague of Toads -
Trance Healer: The Trance Healer attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Plague of Toads. Your Mana spenders have 1000 Life On Hit while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Firebomb -
Soul Retriever: The Soul Retriever attacks targets hit by your Mana spenders with Firebomb. Your Mana spenders have a 5% chance to drop Health Globes while your Fetish Assistant is active.
Passive Skill Change - Vision Quest
When you deal damage with Corpse Spiders, Firebomb, Plague of Toads, or Poison Dart, your Mana regeneration is increased by 30% for 5 seconds. Your primary skills are now considered to be resource generators.
*****
Wizard: Targets hit by your primary skill are affected by Malediction. Malediction lasts for 5 seconds. Targets affected by Malediction that are hit by an Arcane Power spender take 250% weapon damage over 5 seconds. You cannot have more than 1 of your Maledictions active on a target at any time.
Magic Missile -
Mystic Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders have a chance to restore 1 Arcane Power when it hits an affected target.
Shock Pulse -
Boisterous Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders have a chance to immobilize an affected target for 1 second.
Spectral Blade -
Phantom Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders causes the affected target to deal 10% less damage.
Electrocute -
Thunderous Malediction: Your Arcane Power spenders causes the affected target to deal your area damage.
Passive Skill Change - Prodigy
When you cast a Signature spell, you gain 5 Arcane Power. Your Signature spells are now considered to be resource generators.
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Clan is smallish at the moment because we're in the process of rebuilding, after weeding out the inactives. But the officers are active usually on a daily basis. If you're okay with that, then welcome! PM Lezard#6347 for an invite!
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Exploding Palm's gone through some interesting changes over the PTR - imo, the switch from monster life to weapon damage is a good one. While it'll largely kill off support monk, it's still better for making Exploding Palm more competitive without making it too strong for Greater Rifts and Leaderboards.
However, the main problem with Exploding Palm hasn't really been its damage output - the main problem is its wonky mechanic that feels out of place in an ARPG.
Exploding Palm is a single target dot with a significant resource cost, even taking the Spirit generation improvements into account. Casting EP on an already affected target only refreshes the duration, which is generally a waste of time and Spirit. Trying to avoid recasting it on the same target requires significant effort, and with the creature density and mobility of D3, is generally a futile one.
IMO, EP should be changed in a way to avoid this pitfall. I have a number of suggestions.
1) QOL improvement - the game should prevent you from reapplying EP until it's within 1 or 2 seconds of expiring. If you're clicking on an already affected monster, it should retarget your EP to the next closest unaffected mob.
2) Mechanic change - Reapplying EP should refund half the spirit cost back, since the only benefit you're getting out of it is refreshing the DoT.
3) Rework - When reapplying EP, not only does it refresh the DoT, it immediately deals damage to the target (ONLY the target) equal to, say, 50% of the remaining DoT damage. So if you cast an unruned EP, let it tick for 3 seconds, you would do about 200% weapon damage to the target only. This makes accidentally recasting EP on the same target less punishing, and makes it more effective against single targets, making it more of a true spender.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Lezard-6347/hero/26536852
Thanks kindly in advance!
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