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Quote from italofoca

Less restrictions allow for more diversity.

Bullshit. Things are not that simple.
The automatic stat destribution is an perfect exemple of an restriction that was added in the game to promote more diversity. If people would be able to choose their stats by thenself surely a OP stat build would arise soon, destroying many skill combination possibilities.

The fact that stats were imbalanced in D2 wasn't a systemic issue with personal stat allocation. The problem was that the stats were poorly balanced against one another.

It is entirely possible to create a balanced stat system WITH the feature of personal stat allocation. Blizzard simply executed it poorly.

I fully expect to be able to spec into high dps summons as well as tanky ones, so I do not see summons as some sort of CC spell or survivabilty measure. (I also don't care for the sacrifice skill and won't be using it)

What comes to my mind is a scenario where having to choose between 2 +damage stats punishes hybrid builds by only offering mediocre damage from both sources.

While in stark contrast summon only or spell only builds obtain full damage from all of there skills.

I think that would make hybrid builds non-viable in pvp due to sub par dps output and I don't like that. Mainly because it restricts build choice to a single "school" of skills in order to achieve competitive dps.

Take a second to in vision summons not as just solid tanks, but as having glass cannon variants and everything in between. And where each summon falls on that spectrum being decided by traits and runestones NOT by the summon skill itself.

I do not believe in the existence of weak builds, I desire a game so well designed that there are none.
This would of course be a perfect game.. and none of us will ever see it. However I do believe that weak builds can be relegated to being the minority, by good game design.

I think you underestimate peoples creativity, simply because everyone can have a nice pet doesn't mean they will want one. The WD has plenty of powerful crowd control abilities that can be relied on for survivability, not to mention several traits to make him more beefy. And lets not forget that trait points are extremely limited, much much more so than skill points. We won't have traits to max out your skills, pets and resource management/survivabilty all at once, there simply aren't enough points to go around.

We also need to remember that +pet damage is only a pseudo defensive stat, because it doesn't directly increase your survivablity. Having a dedicated +skill/pet damage stat doesn't give you some magical survivabilty buff, its all damage. With the happy side effect of a possibly tanky little summon. (which might no even hold aggro for all we know)

But how much pet tanking is a factor is something that could swing far one way or the other. It could be really great or totally useless, and I get the feeling that will be not only a function of how much you pumped the summon skill but that your traits will have a huge impact and possibly your defensive stats as well.

Of course until we know base stats and scaling numbers this is all conjecture, and theory will only go so far in proving the viability of different systems as numbers changes can have such a drastic skewing effect on these arguments.

Quote from italofoca

I think a magic mod "increase summon power" should exist. I think the tradeoff between summon strength and spell strength would add a lot of diversity to WD builds.

It's exactly the opposite.
If +spells = +summons (stats wise) then you can have any combination of spells and summons in your build while maintaining the strength of both schools.

If there are separate then you pretty much have to choose which one you want to not suck.

We already have to choose how we allocate points between summon and damage skills, a further stat distinction would create both unnecessary redundancy with skill point allocation and would also be additionally restrictive in build choice.

Not to mention the itemization headaches of having to hunt down even more specific pieces of gear in a completely random loot generation system.

Quote from soulzek

-As far as pure summoner viability, it all depends on if Blizzard believes sitting back and letting your pets do all the work proves for a "fun" game play experience. Now, I can say for me that I would enjoy it because I love playing as a summoner in every RPG I can, but for the general population I would have to say no, Blizzard would not like that. In Diablo II, pure summoner didn't really "work" because your minions didn't do enough damage in hell, but the synergy playstyle with Corpse Explosion (which required player input) made it... work, in a sense.

It's fun for some, not for others. The ones who don't like it don't have to spec into it. Couldn't be much simpler imo.

I disagree about CC being easy to brake. The WD is implemented in the style of a historic archetype that has gone by many names throughout the years. Necromancer, Warlock, Witch Doctor just to name a few.

Typically characterized by fear/horrify themed CC spells and pets undead or otherwise evil in nature. This archetype has most often been weak in melee combat, unable to take much physical damage, and most importantly short on escape spells.

To make up for this they typically have a wide variety of powerful CC abilities. It is important to note that these CC abilities are not "extra" they are often the only or at least the primary way that they stay alive.

WD do not teleport around the battlefield like Wizards, but they are just as frail! Powerful CC spells are a MUST on the Witch Doctor. They have always been pivotal to the archetype, they have always been the means or survival for low mobility casters, they have always been extremely annoying in PvP, they have always been whined about by idiots who do not understand game balance.

In every game I've ever played with such a class it has been (to my everlasting frustration) the primary target of the "omg that class is so OP" bullshit that comes out of the mouths of unskilled nubs who do not bother to learn game mechanics. Let's not start with this nonsense before the game even comes out.

WD is glass cannon + CC, get over it.

A topic more deserving of discussion is depth in CC counters.

I for one am very disappointed to hear from of a Barb skill that is a "one button counters all" CC brake and immunity, PvP trinkets are awful in WoW and they would be equally awful in Diablo.

The game needs counters to one particular type of CC (or perhaps two) like fear/charm and stun/blind. Actual depth and strategy in countering you opponents CC abilities rather than just pressing your unigun counter trinket or skill.

Something nearer to the way PvP trinkets worked when they first came out, before the constant cycling of developers began systematically destroying WoW in late TBC.

For those of you who don't know, WoW PvP trinkets used to brake 2 forms of CC and each class had a different one. I was one of the people who studied and memorized what each class could and couldn't brake. And doing so made me significantly more effective.

Then they ungunned all PvP trinkets to brake every kind of CC. This was direct simplification of combat mechanics and a direct nerf to the effectiveness of player skill. Lowering the skill ceiling down to the lowest common denominator.
Exactly the type of ridiculous buggery that has no place in Diablo 3, no matter how "annoying" CC is to fight against.

Frustration on the part of the player, does not constitute imbalance on the part of the game.

Barb.
Beefy Melee fighter is always the lowest skill cap and least interesting archetype in every game I've ever played.

I want a challenge.

But will eventually level a Barb just to have an intimate understanding of Barb mechanics in PvP.

What measures are being taken to make utility skills like the Wizard's Teleport compelling options for pumping to max (even in pvp), so that we don't end up with a system that tends towards boring cookie cutter builds?

e.g. EVERYONE only puts 1-5 points in utility skills because they remain relevant without being maxxed while shield/CC/damage spells require constant pumping to remain viable as targets scale up in Damage/HP/Resistances/CC Resistances.

All about the Witch Doctor and Monk, but will be getting to Wizard before long.

I've always been attracted to the CC/pets type caster /w Fear and various hp to mana mechanics Archetype.
And any other Archetype with a very high skill cap really.

I've never been a fan of classes like the barb who rely on being super tough to cover up there mistakes, I prefer implying my wits to stay alive. The gameplay of the more Fragile, high skill cap Monk seems very appealing.

I also like being Evil, as my sole purpose in rpgs is usually to make other players rage/cry via pvp.
But the holy Monk offers a nice change of pace.

I'm a fan of the old school FF4 style bare fist monk. If there is some sort of barely visible fist weapon likening to iron knuckles then that would be my first choice baring bare fist.

Secondarily I really like the Asian swordsman idea, with a 1h scimitar.

Quote from paroxysm2010

I cant get it to work =/ I guess I don't have excel on my computer anymore

After you download the file, try uploading it to your own google docs account, should work.

Edit: I have now allowed online editing. Everyone is using the same file tho, so please don't change anything but the points unless you download your own copy.

I made a trait calculator for the witch doctor, you can download and play with it if you like via the File Menu by selecting Download As.

Simply delete all the values from the points boxes beneath the box that shows what tier the trait is in and enter your own choices, max ranks per trait are found after the name of the trait (there isn't any data validation in play yet).

The color coding and ordering of traits is 100% arbitrary for my own easy of use, do what you will with it once downloaded.

Google Docs

I should get back to doing actual work now... I'll add a second page for skills eventually and maybe some pivot charts like a pie chart to show how much your invested in each category summons/zombie spells/mana/plagues/ect.

Have fun.

Edit: I made backup and now allow open editing of the original, if you want to "save your build" you still need to make your own copy, but now everyone can play with it online.

I was thinking that perhaps you could get by with using Hex as your CC skill, which is summons a fetish to cast CC for you by turning your enemies into chickens..

I'm not sure about having a nuke/dot or two of your own to cast, and I probably won't be until we know how the Fetish Fire Pit is going to work as it seems like sort of a pseudo summon/nuke to me judging by the description but we haven't seen it yet.

There is one kinda of obscure screen shot that some believe is the Fire Pit skill but it isn't confirmed and from that shot it still isn't clear how it works.

Edited to add more line breaks as usual: I should learn to hit preview.

I was considering Corpse Spiders and Plague of Toads to be summon spells (of the animal type). This video is one of the big reasons why Youtube, Giant Toad. It seems that certain runestones are available to make these pseudo summons more persistent in nature.

My question about scaling is really due to the large amount of summoning spells at the WD disposal, No one could have them all near max by lvl60.. 6 of them lvl10 at best with the 7th skill slot used for melee/wand attack.

So to make a pure summoner some sort of secondary scaling would be a necessity. I'm curious if such a pure summoner build is something we can expect to be viable, because it seems interesting to me.

• Zombie Master
Increases the Witch Doctor's damage done by Zombie skills.

• Plagued
Increases the Witch Doctor's damage done by Animal and Plague skills.

• Fetish Leader
Increases damage done by Fetish skills.

These 3 Traits are also assumed to buff there respective pet types, near as I can tell there 7 total summon spells and each "school" has at least two of them. That is not counting Zombie Wall.

I am just curious as to how essential these will be for summons remaining viable in endgame, was hoping to gleam some clues from the previous games.

I got bored and have begun making spreadsheets with what data I have you see.

I'm curious as to how the various WD summons (Zombie, Fetish, Animal) will scale in D3.

Do they only scale with the level of the skill?

Or do they receive a bonus based on the stats of there summoners?

If so do pets that are obviously summoned through magic receive + to there physical based damage from there summoners +150% spell damage?

Having no experience with previous Diablo games I'm a at a loss for speculation and theory crafting. Could anyone enlighten me as to exactly how D2 summons scaled? I haven't been able to find any specific information on the subject.