yeah, shame on you Sol, for supporting something blizzard made...it's not like we're on www.diablofans.com or anyth....oh wait a second yes we are >.<. Btw, how does 35k+ signatures classify as "the majority"...honestly...MILLIONS of people play this game, that's probably not even 1%, and then still, it's all from people who are lazy and just click on the "i agree" button at the end, so it's in no way representative.... damnit you took me off-topic again >.< (so easy)
anyhowz, funny story, but like the first post said, 2 bad it's a bit on the short side
I will not debate the majority issue because you obviously suffer from the fallacy of infallibility.
Also don't imply that I do not support blizzard with there d3 game. Now where in my post have I implied that blizzard does not have my support in making d3. I am a big fan of the diablo franchise.
Biased? That's amusing. I wonder how supporting Blizzard's art direction suddenly equated to 'bias', as if there are sides to choose from. Would I be biased for calling Shakespeare a classical poet?
Yes you would if there was a currently divided debate going on about if he was indeed a classical poet.
Here's 2 definitions
A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.
An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.
I don't see you posting any articles or blogs in support of an artistic change.
Funny article. The link is much appreciated. I don't really see how linking to a funny article about something we all obviously care about could be construed as biased.
I guess my point is this...Blizzard is trying to stay true to the franchise, as much as they can. They want to keep as many Diablo fans as they can. But there is a whole new generation or demographic of gamer they are trying to bring in to the game as well. People that are accustomed to a...for lack of a better phrase...more modern and up to date look. It is a business after all. For every hardcore Diablo fan they lose, and I hope they don'y lose any, there will be three to take their place. Like it or not, Blizzard knows what they are doing or rather, what they want to do. They aren't as successful as they are for nothing.
I don't understand the reasoning for believing that Blizzard is this group of people who don't have the ability to make a mistake. Sure Blizzard is very successful but that doesn't mean they are going to make awesome games every time.
An early post wrote that the original starcraft would have not been as great without fans constructive criticism.
Yes in a way it is. However having the same mood conveyed through out the entire game does not seem appealing to me
I am not asking for the entire game to convey the same mood through out the entire game.
I just want the majority of the game to have the same mood and feeling as the old ones; that is my concern.
I would be fine with the two areas they showed in the game play demo long as the game holds true to the old ones.
The problem is it doesn't seem like it will be from what I have seen so I am voicing(actually writing) my opinion.
yeah in Diablo1, but I'm am going to make a wild assumption that this is simply not the case in this game. I'm also going to make the wild assumption that there will be areas far more sinister than what we were shown.
You assume one way I assume another. Isn't the mood of the game and the way it looks part of the game play?
I can only assume they picked what they thought would be exciting to the fan base and was a good representation of the game. I cant imagine they decided to show only the brightest and most saturated and cheery parts of the game, if they did they are fools. So while you can say that we should "wait and see" because there may be darker sections I can equally say that there might be even more brightly colored fairytale settings than what we have already seen, in which case the earlier people say there is a problem the better.
And has been said before the saturation isn't the only problem anyway. The lack of detail and overall watercolor finish with the semi cell shading is also contributing to its look.
Yes I agree, why would they show the most brightest places of the game first. A good demo shows the over all general feeling of the game.
I am going to go over every one of your claims and proposition logically. My responses are in blue!
"First things first, Art and game design should never turn into some sort of pseudo democracy, this is not presidential elections, the only one who has the right to decide what Diablo 3 looks like is Blizzard, not mindless nostalgia fueled petitions or crazed hard-core fans."
In this first paragraph you claim Art and game design is not a pseudo democracy but offer no evidence to why it is not. So this is invalid due to lack of evidence. Second you use an ad hominem by calling people who want some graphic changes to be mindlessly nostalgic or a crazed hard-core fan. This is your reasoning for why the fans won’t have an affect on the graphics. But if you read this forum, you would have seen that the fans have in fact had an effect on the graphics with starcraft so there is evidence for the opposite.
"I have said countless time that Blizzard justified their changes in the game looks during their Art Panels in WWI, and it makes more sense than the mindless nostalgia fest going on here, anyone with even the slightest artistic sense could see how much hard work has been done on Diablo 3, so it is immature, implotie and rude to just ask them to change it all just because your nostlagia is hurting, if you don't like Diablo 3 as it is just don't buy it or play it, go play the countless gritty clones out there, or make your own company."
Once again you try to make your claim by not actually addressing evidence but call people immature, impolite and rude. You may feel that the population is being those things by suggesting changes but it is really up to blizzard to decide not you.
"Reasons for the changes:-
*it has been already 20 years since Diablo 2, more than enough to change the whole look of the world." True, but that doesn’t mean people can’t give constructive criticism of what they have seen in the demo. I could also say that during that 20 years more evil has spread make the world more corrupt. So the 20 years isn’t a very good reason for the whole game to be bright and happy.
"* Stylish, giving Diablo 3 its own character and personality, allowing it to stand out from the crowd of brown and grey games, or 'realistic' (e.g. boring) looking games." In my opinion the changes some ask for, will not take away the character and personality of the game at least the ones I have read.
"* Not monotonous. The use of inviting colours, contours, tones, vibrance, and animations are some of the game's major strengths. Makes the game accessible and playable for a long period of time. "
"* The use of colors allow for a wide variety of settings and locations, away from the mundane worlds of greys and browns."
Just because you say grey and brown worlds are mundane makes it so?
"* Vibrant colors and a wide variety of locations do not prohibit the game from having 'dark gothic' locations within the game. Diablo 2 consisted mainly of vibrant locations, but that didn't prevent the Durance of Hate from being a part of the game. " I agree, change is good and the points you bring make sence for the most part. Although, I don’t see why both the changes for a more gothic, darker, and scarier game and your points can’t both be implemented. "So to set things right i'll try to explain those changes and refute all the baseless nostalgia fueled claims that make no sense."
"1-claim one" "They say Diablo 3 is cartoony and colorful
nonsense, if Diablo 3 is cartoony then real life is loony toons, Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 were more much more colorful and cartoony than Diablo 3, which is 40 times more realistic than both of them."
"What I am just confused to what you are trying to prove? I personally don’t mind the rainbow as long as the game still has some scary dark stuff. Yeah, there was defiantly a lot of color used in D2 and I didn’t like it. (The bright prime colors that is.) -NATURE is VIVID and COLORFUL and that DOESN'T MAKE IT CARTOONY"
"2-claim two" "They say Diablo 3 looks like WoW Not true, Diablo 3 has a slightly stylish look that looks nothing like WoW, Team Fortress has a stylish look, does that mean it looks like WoW or Diablo 3, NO, and also in general not every fantasy stylized 3d game is WoW." Both sides bring up good evidence to support it either being like or not like Wow.
"Proofs: This is the very stylish and low poly look of WoW, you can see it's textures and details are greatly lacking and that the colors are not coherent, both hands and feet are large and anatomy in general is exaggerated."
"BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH FREAKING DARK AND BORING WITH NO MOOD OR AMBIENT COLORS, NO SANE DIABLO FAN WOULD WANT DIABLO 3 to look this GENERIC, BLAND AND SHITTY."
That is exactly why the games you showed are boring because they have no mood. If the mood is scary then the changes some want will defiantly work – in my opinion. 3-claim three "They say Diablo 3 Armor is spiky and large That's hilarious, did you even check how the armor wore by the Barbarian in D2 looked like, seriously !!!!!" I agree that is a good example of the parts of D3 that are not too cartoony or WoWish. "That's all for now"
"And remember i'm not the one how created the current look for Daiblo 3, it is BLIZZARD, the same company that made DIABLO 1 and DIABLO 2 that you keep whining about, THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU."
If you read through the thread you would have seen that the same people who created D1 and D2 are for the most part not in the team working on D3 so blizzard might need some criticism to help with keeping the game to its essence.
"THEY HAD VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THEIR CHANGES, and ALL you WHINE about IS NOSTALGIA, DARKNESS AND BLOOD, quite an argument, an perfectly EMO one."
I could call you names to does that make my points anymore valid? Why don’t you grow up and actually use constructive feedback instead of calling names.
I also don’t doubt that blizzard had good reasons for their changes. The problem is that more than half of this forum community and possibly the future D3 buys disagree with the graphics in some way or another.
> Does not make any sense whatsoever, wether or not said fans are socalled mindless and immature acording to this idiot is irrelevant.
> Contradicts his statements that there is no change in art, plus makes no sense, again.
> Clueless. Immature/impolite/rude to voice your opinion about a dislike for a change in artstyle? LOL
> Never even heard of Diablo 1.
> Oblivious to the fact Diablo already had its own character and personality. Argument about grey/brown whatever he came up with is a nonargument for the fact that it doesn't argument anything whatsoever, you could just aswell use anything instead of brown or grey or whatever and make asmuch as a retarded nonpoint.
> Nonargument, clueless to the fact Diablo 1 and 2 weren't in black and white and infact made WAY better and smarter use of colors/lightning/contrast, just the fact that not everything bathed in the same pastelcolors says enough he doesn't have the slightest bit of artistical feel or knowledge whatsoever.
> Same as the above, he seems to be completely oblivious to the fact D1 and 2 weren't in black and white, oh wait, apart from his later upped gamma D2 screenshot. Doh. Trying to teach a person like this that colors CAN be used in various ways and it isn't a matter of "color or no color" is a waste of time.
> Nonargument, none has stated there won't be darker locations in the game.
> ROFLMAO
> "If Diablo 3 is cartoony then real-life is loony toons"? Seriously, there isn't a facepalm big enough. Oblivious to what Blizzard stated themselves.
> Did anyone ask for Diablo to become a nature simulator? Nature should be fucking devoured by unspeakable evil, THIS - GUY - IS - CLUELESS.
> Retarded. Who in the fuck cares rainbows are a natural phenomena? Does this dude purposely ignores the meaning of ART DESIGN?
> Oh my lord, is this guy serious?
> So? ART DESIGN, fucken learn the meaning.
> No one said it was you dumbshit retarded moron, meh, if you start throwing out insults for no reason, then i might aswell throw them back with a reason. "Get a life", yea, going about telling people to get a life for no reason whatsoever equates someone with a life. Why not just end your life? Its pathetic.
Pfft, i won't even bother to further quote moronity.
Good logical rebuttal dopple. Wolf is just a troll.
Hmm... I watched the rolling demos, read a few threads here, signed the petition, so I'd now like to share my thoughts on this game. It's actually the only game I'm looking forward to.
The first time I watched the gameplay video I couldn't notice many things as I was like "zomfg.. daiblo tehereee!!!!!11111". But I got the feeling that even though the splatter was satistfyingly forceful, something was wrong. One thing I did notice though was the zoomed-in "chat screen" when the player was talking to Cain. That was totally wrong. Blizzard, please stick with Half-Life's example. Never strip the control from the player in a fairy-tale way like that, even during cutscenes. It totally ruins the atmosphere.
Talking about atmosphere, there are several things in this rolling demo that certainly don't add to it. First is the music. It's totally wrong. It just like a WoW composition on a Diablo melody. Diablo music should be more subtle and more depressing. Then there are the colours, which are to vibrant as most people have noticed. Furthermore, magic weapons with such extravagant visual effects like that flaming maul or whatever it was, remind me of Darkstone, which is not a good thing. Diablo should be all about subtlety, darkness and realism.
Of course the most notable thing gone wrong is the shadows, or their absence to be precise. We definately need the light radius effect. Most game developers try to limit the number of polygons on screen by means of a fog of war, draw distance, etc, so now that the community is actually asking to see less, I think Blizzard has a great opportunity to both improve the gaming experience and free up resources at the same time. Why not partly unload models that fall into the darkest areas of the screen and use less detailed versions, much like Sacrifice did back in its days? The saved polygons could be used to give more detail to the objects in the brighter areas.
And finally some wishes for the outdoor vs indoor areas issue. The two things that Diablo 1 did better than Diablo 2, was the depth of the dungeon and the lack of "silly" monsters, like trees, swarms of mosquitos, frogs and midgets riding on each others' backs. I'd like Diablo 3 to revive Diablo 1's feeling of descending to the depths of hell, with only occasional outdoor areas, that would lighten the tension a little bit (...at first. i'd like to see the outdoor areas darken too gradually) and separate chapters of the story.
To summarize: Blizzard, please give us a true descendant of Diablo 1, not a Darkstone 2, nor a single-player WoW!
Thats an interesting point about the loss of character control with the dialog. It could be done differently but personally it doesn't bother me either way.
I do really like the music they have in the demo though so I disagree with you on that part but I do agree they should defiantly have dark/depressing music.
Yeah D3 should defiantly have the "feeling of descending to the depths of hell"!
I would actually like the game's outside environments to be very bright and beautiful at the start of the game, only to get worse and worse the further in you get. The main concern I have is the dungeon in the trailer, which just doesn't hold that same atmosphere as the ones in Diablo 1 & 2. It needs less green, less light sources and more intimidating features.
I disagree but you have a right to your opinion.
I think the game should set the mood for what lies ahead then lighten up the mood a little bit (or a lot). But I guess thats just a difference of opinion.
I like that picture! Maybe for the people who want more color you could brighten up the reflectiveness of the metal in the shot. I love the color of the environment though.
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I am basing it on the Diablofans own poll and the number of signed petition. Which are not out of thin air.
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I will not debate the majority issue because you obviously suffer from the fallacy of infallibility.
Also don't imply that I do not support blizzard with there d3 game. Now where in my post have I implied that blizzard does not have my support in making d3. I am a big fan of the diablo franchise.
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Yes you would if there was a currently divided debate going on about if he was indeed a classical poet.
Here's 2 definitions
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I thought the article had its funny parts too.
Read my post above you, it should explain.
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So your saying that the two most recent page post you have displayed don't show some bias?
Even though both links are to a blog/article, that share your ideals for the way you think the art in D3 should be?
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Let it go! The majority feel D3 should have little changes made to it to make it more on par with the mood or look of the older games.
Way to be a non-bias staff member. (sarcasm)
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I don't understand the reasoning for believing that Blizzard is this group of people who don't have the ability to make a mistake. Sure Blizzard is very successful but that doesn't mean they are going to make awesome games every time.
An early post wrote that the original starcraft would have not been as great without fans constructive criticism.
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10294&page=52
the post is by alexiskool12345
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I am not asking for the entire game to convey the same mood through out the entire game.
I just want the majority of the game to have the same mood and feeling as the old ones; that is my concern.
I would be fine with the two areas they showed in the game play demo long as the game holds true to the old ones.
The problem is it doesn't seem like it will be from what I have seen so I am voicing(actually writing) my opinion.
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You assume one way I assume another. Isn't the mood of the game and the way it looks part of the game play?
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Yes I agree, why would they show the most brightest places of the game first. A good demo shows the over all general feeling of the game.
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I am going to go over every one of your claims and proposition logically. My responses are in blue!
"First things first, Art and game design should never turn into some sort of pseudo democracy, this is not presidential elections, the only one who has the right to decide what Diablo 3 looks like is Blizzard, not mindless nostalgia fueled petitions or crazed hard-core fans."
In this first paragraph you claim Art and game design is not a pseudo democracy but offer no evidence to why it is not. So this is invalid due to lack of evidence. Second you use an ad hominem by calling people who want some graphic changes to be mindlessly nostalgic or a crazed hard-core fan. This is your reasoning for why the fans won’t have an affect on the graphics. But if you read this forum, you would have seen that the fans have in fact had an effect on the graphics with starcraft so there is evidence for the opposite.
"I have said countless time that Blizzard justified their changes in the game looks during their Art Panels in WWI, and it makes more sense than the mindless nostalgia fest going on here, anyone with even the slightest artistic sense could see how much hard work has been done on Diablo 3, so it is immature, implotie and rude to just ask them to change it all just because your nostlagia is hurting, if you don't like Diablo 3 as it is just don't buy it or play it, go play the countless gritty clones out there, or make your own company."
Once again you try to make your claim by not actually addressing evidence but call people immature, impolite and rude. You may feel that the population is being those things by suggesting changes but it is really up to blizzard to decide not you.
"Reasons for the changes:-
*it has been already 20 years since Diablo 2, more than enough to change the whole look of the world."
True, but that doesn’t mean people can’t give constructive criticism of what they have seen in the demo. I could also say that during that 20 years more evil has spread make the world more corrupt. So the 20 years isn’t a very good reason for the whole game to be bright and happy.
"* Stylish, giving Diablo 3 its own character and personality, allowing it to stand out from the crowd of brown and grey games, or 'realistic' (e.g. boring) looking games."
In my opinion the changes some ask for, will not take away the character and personality of the game at least the ones I have read.
"* Not monotonous. The use of inviting colours, contours, tones, vibrance, and animations are some of the game's major strengths. Makes the game accessible and playable for a long period of time. "
"* The use of colors allow for a wide variety of settings and locations, away from the mundane worlds of greys and browns."
Just because you say grey and brown worlds are mundane makes it so?
"* Vibrant colors and a wide variety of locations do not prohibit the game from having 'dark gothic' locations within the game. Diablo 2 consisted mainly of vibrant locations, but that didn't prevent the Durance of Hate from being a part of the game. "
I agree, change is good and the points you bring make sence for the most part. Although, I don’t see why both the changes for a more gothic, darker, and scarier game and your points can’t both be implemented.
"So to set things right i'll try to explain those changes and refute all the baseless nostalgia fueled claims that make no sense."
"1-claim one"
"They say Diablo 3 is cartoony and colorful
nonsense, if Diablo 3 is cartoony then real life is loony toons, Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 were more much more colorful and cartoony than Diablo 3, which is 40 times more realistic than both of them."
"What I am just confused to what you are trying to prove? I personally don’t mind the rainbow as long as the game still has some scary dark stuff. Yeah, there was defiantly a lot of color used in D2 and I didn’t like it. (The bright prime colors that is.) -NATURE is VIVID and COLORFUL and that DOESN'T MAKE IT CARTOONY"
"2-claim two"
"They say Diablo 3 looks like WoW
Not true, Diablo 3 has a slightly stylish look that looks nothing like WoW, Team Fortress has a stylish look, does that mean it looks like WoW or Diablo 3, NO, and also in general not every fantasy stylized 3d game is WoW."
Both sides bring up good evidence to support it either being like or not like Wow.
"Proofs:
This is the very stylish and low poly look of WoW, you can see it's textures and details are greatly lacking and that the colors are not coherent, both hands and feet are large and anatomy in general is exaggerated."
"BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH FREAKING DARK AND BORING WITH NO MOOD OR AMBIENT COLORS, NO SANE DIABLO FAN WOULD WANT DIABLO 3 to look this GENERIC, BLAND AND SHITTY."
That is exactly why the games you showed are boring because they have no mood. If the mood is scary then the changes some want will defiantly work – in my opinion.
3-claim three
"They say Diablo 3 Armor is spiky and large
That's hilarious, did you even check how the armor wore by the Barbarian in D2 looked like, seriously !!!!!"
I agree that is a good example of the parts of D3 that are not too cartoony or WoWish.
"That's all for now"
"And remember i'm not the one how created the current look for Daiblo 3, it is BLIZZARD, the same company that made DIABLO 1 and DIABLO 2 that you keep whining about, THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU."
If you read through the thread you would have seen that the same people who created D1 and D2 are for the most part not in the team working on D3 so blizzard might need some criticism to help with keeping the game to its essence.
"THEY HAD VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THEIR CHANGES, and ALL you WHINE about IS NOSTALGIA, DARKNESS AND BLOOD, quite an argument, an perfectly EMO one."
I could call you names to does that make my points anymore valid? Why don’t you grow up and actually use constructive feedback instead of calling names.
I also don’t doubt that blizzard had good reasons for their changes. The problem is that more than half of this forum community and possibly the future D3 buys disagree with the graphics in some way or another.
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Good logical rebuttal dopple. Wolf is just a troll.
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Thats an interesting point about the loss of character control with the dialog. It could be done differently but personally it doesn't bother me either way.
I do really like the music they have in the demo though so I disagree with you on that part but I do agree they should defiantly have dark/depressing music.
Yeah D3 should defiantly have the "feeling of descending to the depths of hell"!
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I disagree but you have a right to your opinion.
I think the game should set the mood for what lies ahead then lighten up the mood a little bit (or a lot). But I guess thats just a difference of opinion.
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I like that picture! Maybe for the people who want more color you could brighten up the reflectiveness of the metal in the shot. I love the color of the environment though.