For me it has to be the lore and themes most strongly present in the first two games (and imo most strongly in the first). That isn't meant to suggest that three is bad or anything, but it doesn't get certain things about the diablo universe as far as I am concerned. I can still have fun with it but it doesn't have the same meaning.
I would say its very worth it if you want diablo 3 but only plan to play solo or with trusted friends / family. The randoms online can break your game so you can only play with people you know don't cheat (unless you yourself don't care about effectively being a cheater because even if you take nothing from the cheating players they can boost your paragon level very rapidly).
Strongly for the endless paragon system. If change is to come, let it only be to competitive modes (meaning seasons and possibly non-season grifting IF there is an option to do uncapped grifting which can be on a separate leaderboard or non-leaderboard).
Yes paragon is an infinite progression, but you have no choices where to put those points, its just ur main stat, and that is very boring way to progress imho. Same with new upgrades - they will be fun for a short period of time till you max it out and thats all.
I always though that this game is about hunting items, not gaining paragons. Paragons as a side progression are nice, but its problematic when it becomes the only way to go. 2 years ago hitting that 800 paragons and gearing fully wasnt that easy for casual player like me, now getting full ancient set and hitting 800 paragons is in range for anyone, and only thing that left is grinding more main stat from paragons.
Don't get me wrong, im thankfull that they are doing those changes to the game, im just voicing my opinion about lacking some choices at late game porgression.
How exactly do you propose fixing that? Infinitely scaling gear stats so that gear is always the best way to improve your character? As is if you just removed paragon or removed its benefits after a certain point you just have no progression rather than more emphasis on finding gear. People who are running massive amounts of paragon levels are already kitted out in the best or nearly the best gear and that is why paragon matters to them as it is the only progression left that they can continue to build their character with.
I am ok with changes to paragon regarding season or special competitive segments ONLY. It should remain unlimited anywhere else (though I wouldn't mind a bit of a change to make it more interesting than just mainstat after 800).
I don't think seasons are inherently bad or that they should be gone. I do however hate how that is all anyone cares about now and hold it up as being more important than anything else.
This, like several other of the things you (bagstone specifically but it kindof applies to anyone who is in agreement with him) consider to be extremely important does not affect my way of play in the slightest. I feel I need to mention that because you are taking one segment of the community and elevating their importance above all others (by suggesting that this issue, which is primarily an issue in the competitive circle is so important to the game as a whole). Once again, that grouping is the segment that plays the game competitively. If you do not play this game competitively then it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing really. There is no economy for the bots to ruin, and they don't jump into my game and mess it up so what exactly does this do to me? I play entirely solo and just do my own thing. At the moment YOU are more of a threat to me than a million botters because you are proposing changes that limit what I can do in the game because botting affects a portion of the game I don't deal with. This has not been taken into consideration in regards to this issue, nor has it been considered in your campaign against paragon levels. I urge you and anyone else who plays competitive to seek solutions that do not potentially damage aspects of the game outside of competition.
"Yes people should be rewarded for what they put into the game, but this
kind of system just encourages botting and endless grinding."
I find that to be a really weird statement. How else do you compete in diablo? The whole game is one huge grinder (grind levels, grind gear, grind paragon, grind gems). This is kindof the exact same problem that the devs were worried would occur with pvp, that balance would be an issue and they didn't want to have to constantly re-blance things over competition. Well, guess they forgot when adding pve competition. Pretty much everyone was fine with paragon levels until it became an issue when competing on leaderboards. Now we have people attempting to break game systems for competitions sake. Paragon should be left alone (and it seems damage has already been done) and the change should be made to the competition instead since that is the only thing where paragon is a problem. I still say cap it in competitive modes only and leave non-competitive modes untouched.
@veicht: After P2k the exp required for next level remains unchanged. Do you consider its an unbroken mechanic to level up in shorter time from then on?
@azakus87: There is a 4th option: Leave paragon uncapped. Remove the stats bonus after P800 on season only. After season end the players will receive their main stat bonus on non-season. When the expansion hits, scale paragon differently and cap it somewhere.
Yes I consider it unbroken, its not that its less than previous levels its just flat which means that progression speed is based on your efficiency. Is it a bit unorthodox? Depends really, but this isn't the only game that has flat leveling like that after a certain point (and in those cases it is often intentional) so it certainly isn't broken.
As for the 4th option listed above, I support the idea of cap for season play to balance competition.
@veicht: Have you read all posts until now in this thread?
I read the first long op and then the last page (4) pretty much. The reason I ask however is I want to know where YOU consider it broken, I already disagreed with the op points and think that it is more a problem with competition in diablo 3 being broken than with paragon.
@Bagstone: From all con comments I've read until now here, us forums and reddit, the logic of the low paragon player is the following: "I gain 3-4 levels today. I kill mobs faster tomorrow. I get more level. I get more power. I have something to play for." Seems like most of these people don't enjoy experimenting with new chars, setups, builds etc... And I won't blame them. When you know a build is optimal, you don't have to discover it yourself. You just copy it and you farm paragon. And if your only goal is to creep mobs faster, you aren't interested in completing achievements, conquests, pushing leaderboards etc., then you want the current system to stay and you to have fun enjoying it. What these guys don't understand completely is that this current system is broken. And one day or another it is going to be changed. For the good of the game it is better the paragon system to be changed sooner than later. Otherwise Diablo 3 will continue to lose dedicated players.
Can you explain to me how it is broken in your perspective?
The situation is so strange: Low-level paragon players are saying "the system is fine, high-level paragon players should get more power". High- level paragon players are saying "the system is flawed, we should not gain *that* much power". Sigh.
I don't think the problem is merely power but is instead about relative power. I play the game in such a way that nothing anyone else does affects me in any way really. This is really a problem for people who are constantly comparing themselves to other players (meaning mostly people competing on ladders or those who wish to). So to me, your fix is purely nerf and does nothing to enhance my enjoyment of the game (it in fact will result in less enjoyment over the long run as leveling gets further and further away. I like to get something for my time and I never want to hit a point where no matter how much I play or how well I play the next level is nearly out of reach.
I looked at one of your posts on the official forum and the following post is marked down a good bit:
"
or Cap paragon in seasons to 800.
or Cap paragon when doing GR to XXX. (ranked)
or have different brackets when competing for ranked (paragon capped and uncapped)
Changing exp gain won't fix much if anything."
Why? All of those solutions fix the problem of paragon messing up competitive aspects of the game without damaging the system itself. I don't understand why you want to hamper paragon in order to fix something else that can be fixed without touching paragon.
I actually like it this way, and there are a couple reasons for that.
1. I like leveling my characters and an infinite progression system provides good motivation for that. Having the exp curve level out once it gets to a certain point is positive for this because that means it will never get to the point where I just can't level up anymore (really would suck to be farming at 100% efficiency for weeks and weeks to not even get one level).
2. I do not compete in diablo 3 (frankly I feel like it really wasn't the best place for it anyway but thats somewhat besides the point) so I do not care at all about paragon levels and ladder meta. I don't think that everything should be punished for the sake of ladder balance and would rather see something else such as capping paragon benefits in ladder or maybe turning paragon points off in seasons (maybe offer it as an option like hardcore, have a no paragon seasonal section where it could still keep your exp but not give you points until it is roled into non-season).
I really just cannot even believe the approach people have taken with this. Ok, so its named 'kanai' as a tribute to a diablo 3 artist... what does that have to do with writing it into the lore that it is a better version of the horadric cube? Why not say its the kanai forge, or emporium or litterally any other object... why not even kanais' horadric cube? There is litterally NO other reason to write the lore that way other than to specifically highlight that this cube is better. Further, as I said this is not the first instance of this 1up attitude. Why people here want to make extremely poor excuses for why this is impossible is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, it could be that they didn't mean for it to be that way but it is very much within the realm of possibility and it is poorly framed at the very least.
You're not understanding what I'm saying, that is from their OWN description of the item. They describe the Kanai cube as being the powerful origin of the horadric cube. If they wanted to do something different they could have, but instead they chose to do this, why? If its supposed to be a nostalgic pip for fans then why not just call it the horadric cube even with its different function? If its not supposed to be then why make it a clear reference to it and write the lore of having it be a basically more powerful version of it?
0
For me it has to be the lore and themes most strongly present in the first two games (and imo most strongly in the first). That isn't meant to suggest that three is bad or anything, but it doesn't get certain things about the diablo universe as far as I am concerned. I can still have fun with it but it doesn't have the same meaning.
0
I would say its very worth it if you want diablo 3 but only plan to play solo or with trusted friends / family. The randoms online can break your game so you can only play with people you know don't cheat (unless you yourself don't care about effectively being a cheater because even if you take nothing from the cheating players they can boost your paragon level very rapidly).
0
Strongly for the endless paragon system. If change is to come, let it only be to competitive modes (meaning seasons and possibly non-season grifting IF there is an option to do uncapped grifting which can be on a separate leaderboard or non-leaderboard).
1
How exactly do you propose fixing that? Infinitely scaling gear stats so that gear is always the best way to improve your character? As is if you just removed paragon or removed its benefits after a certain point you just have no progression rather than more emphasis on finding gear. People who are running massive amounts of paragon levels are already kitted out in the best or nearly the best gear and that is why paragon matters to them as it is the only progression left that they can continue to build their character with.
I am ok with changes to paragon regarding season or special competitive segments ONLY. It should remain unlimited anywhere else (though I wouldn't mind a bit of a change to make it more interesting than just mainstat after 800).
0
0
I don't think seasons are inherently bad or that they should be gone. I do however hate how that is all anyone cares about now and hold it up as being more important than anything else.
0
This, like several other of the things you (bagstone specifically but it kindof applies to anyone who is in agreement with him) consider to be extremely important does not affect my way of play in the slightest. I feel I need to mention that because you are taking one segment of the community and elevating their importance above all others (by suggesting that this issue, which is primarily an issue in the competitive circle is so important to the game as a whole). Once again, that grouping is the segment that plays the game competitively. If you do not play this game competitively then it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing really. There is no economy for the bots to ruin, and they don't jump into my game and mess it up so what exactly does this do to me? I play entirely solo and just do my own thing. At the moment YOU are more of a threat to me than a million botters because you are proposing changes that limit what I can do in the game because botting affects a portion of the game I don't deal with. This has not been taken into consideration in regards to this issue, nor has it been considered in your campaign against paragon levels. I urge you and anyone else who plays competitive to seek solutions that do not potentially damage aspects of the game outside of competition.
0
"Yes people should be rewarded for what they put into the game, but this
kind of system just encourages botting and endless grinding."
I find that to be a really weird statement. How else do you compete in diablo? The whole game is one huge grinder (grind levels, grind gear, grind paragon, grind gems). This is kindof the exact same problem that the devs were worried would occur with pvp, that balance would be an issue and they didn't want to have to constantly re-blance things over competition. Well, guess they forgot when adding pve competition. Pretty much everyone was fine with paragon levels until it became an issue when competing on leaderboards. Now we have people attempting to break game systems for competitions sake. Paragon should be left alone (and it seems damage has already been done) and the change should be made to the competition instead since that is the only thing where paragon is a problem. I still say cap it in competitive modes only and leave non-competitive modes untouched.
0
Yes I consider it unbroken, its not that its less than previous levels its just flat which means that progression speed is based on your efficiency. Is it a bit unorthodox? Depends really, but this isn't the only game that has flat leveling like that after a certain point (and in those cases it is often intentional) so it certainly isn't broken.
As for the 4th option listed above, I support the idea of cap for season play to balance competition.
0
I read the first long op and then the last page (4) pretty much. The reason I ask however is I want to know where YOU consider it broken, I already disagreed with the op points and think that it is more a problem with competition in diablo 3 being broken than with paragon.
0
Can you explain to me how it is broken in your perspective?
0
I don't think the problem is merely power but is instead about relative power. I play the game in such a way that nothing anyone else does affects me in any way really. This is really a problem for people who are constantly comparing themselves to other players (meaning mostly people competing on ladders or those who wish to). So to me, your fix is purely nerf and does nothing to enhance my enjoyment of the game (it in fact will result in less enjoyment over the long run as leveling gets further and further away. I like to get something for my time and I never want to hit a point where no matter how much I play or how well I play the next level is nearly out of reach.
I looked at one of your posts on the official forum and the following post is marked down a good bit:
"
or Cap paragon in seasons to 800.
or Cap paragon when doing GR to XXX. (ranked)
or have different brackets when competing for ranked (paragon capped and uncapped)
Changing exp gain won't fix much if anything."
Why? All of those solutions fix the problem of paragon messing up competitive aspects of the game without damaging the system itself. I don't understand why you want to hamper paragon in order to fix something else that can be fixed without touching paragon.
0
I actually like it this way, and there are a couple reasons for that.
1. I like leveling my characters and an infinite progression system provides good motivation for that. Having the exp curve level out once it gets to a certain point is positive for this because that means it will never get to the point where I just can't level up anymore (really would suck to be farming at 100% efficiency for weeks and weeks to not even get one level).
2. I do not compete in diablo 3 (frankly I feel like it really wasn't the best place for it anyway but thats somewhat besides the point) so I do not care at all about paragon levels and ladder meta. I don't think that everything should be punished for the sake of ladder balance and would rather see something else such as capping paragon benefits in ladder or maybe turning paragon points off in seasons (maybe offer it as an option like hardcore, have a no paragon seasonal section where it could still keep your exp but not give you points until it is roled into non-season).
0
I really just cannot even believe the approach people have taken with this. Ok, so its named 'kanai' as a tribute to a diablo 3 artist... what does that have to do with writing it into the lore that it is a better version of the horadric cube? Why not say its the kanai forge, or emporium or litterally any other object... why not even kanais' horadric cube? There is litterally NO other reason to write the lore that way other than to specifically highlight that this cube is better. Further, as I said this is not the first instance of this 1up attitude. Why people here want to make extremely poor excuses for why this is impossible is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, it could be that they didn't mean for it to be that way but it is very much within the realm of possibility and it is poorly framed at the very least.
0
You're not understanding what I'm saying, that is from their OWN description of the item. They describe the Kanai cube as being the powerful origin of the horadric cube. If they wanted to do something different they could have, but instead they chose to do this, why? If its supposed to be a nostalgic pip for fans then why not just call it the horadric cube even with its different function? If its not supposed to be then why make it a clear reference to it and write the lore of having it be a basically more powerful version of it?