BDF, did you just choose to ignore that I just said that the ONLY Wizard in the top 1000 4's didn't have a single AS item? He was running an AoE build of Black Hole + Blizzard + Hydra. Nobody runs that build that I know of -.-
Comparing AO and Hydra is pointless, you can have both. Hydra is a fire & forget spell.
Problem is, MM + AO + Hydra + Slow Time + Blink + Prismatic Armor, that is 6. So you wouldn't have the 20% from Force Weapon. I believe the damage from Hydra isn't worth the loss of 20%.
You are also assuming groups have tiki docs, that isn't the norm.
No, it definitely is the norm. It is a 100% requirement for high group grifts. Find me a group in the top 100 4-player that doesn't have a witch doctor in it.
The thing is, the bonus from the 6p applies to Arcane Orb also, making it stronger than Hydra.
Yeah, and I say you're wrong. Back up your point with numbers. Account for arcane power expenditure and generation. Account for passives lost to the aforementioned. Account for hydra being able to snapshot Arcane Dynamo and hydra% on gear being a multiplicative buff.
You mention all the buffs/debuffs lost by not using the slow time helm, so the concept of opportunity cost can't be a completely foreign concept to you. Take some time and turn your gaze inward towards your arcane orb build.
Here's the thing, there is no way in hell that a skill would be SO imbalanced, that it beats another skill receiving a 500% buff. To prove my point, check the top 100 Wizards in Solo, you will not find a single one going Tasker and AS builds, simply because Hydra aren't worth it.
And about the top 100 Ladder, you kidding right? You really wanna look at the cookie cutters? Find me a group in the top 1000 that isn't a freaking group of 1 WD, 1 Crusader, 2 DH. There are exactly 3 Barbs, 1 Monk, 1 Wiz in it. And the Wiz? Absolutely 0 items that give attack speed, the only item that increased Hydra is from his Cindercoat, that is because he had to reroll for Sockets. So I guess your point didn't make sense at all.
How about the top 1000 of 3's? 2 Barbs and 2 Monks, that was it. All others were WD, DH, Crusader.
All of those are tryhard groups, that are going with the very best of efficiency, that is not the norm. Most of us play with friends, that will play whatever class they feel like playing, in whatever role they feel like playing, of whatever build they like. That is the norm.
You can opt for Tasker's, 5-piece Delsere + RoRG. You pick the Slow time rune that allows you to place the Slow time where you click. Why pass up the best damage spell in the wizard arsenal? In its current state, the slow time offpiece helm isn't worth passing up tasker. They'll have to rework the slow time runes or change the legendary power of the helm.
And in a group setting, tiki docs lock all the mobs including elites and their affixes, so you can easily take advantage of the APS. In a solo setting, it doesn't matter, it's still the top dps spec, people will play it.
The thing is, the bonus from the 6p applies to Arcane Orb also, making it stronger than Hydra. You are also assuming groups have tiki docs, that isn't the norm. Most cases you will have to be mobile, so having a high amount of AS doesn't help all that much.
For the Time Slow helm, it gives a ton of utility, including +10% AS for allies in it and +10% extra damage to enemies. Plus, it gives stun and huge slow. The stun and slow will help a LOT in GR, since it will allow for great mobility. No, I doubt that Hydra will be part of Opus build, but only time will tell.
Mammoth hydra deals ~3300% dmg/sec per hydra at the 3.06 pet aps breakpoint (4400%/sec at the next one).
Two hydras together deal 6600%dmg/sec with sparker
With mirrorball you deal 4140% per attack with the 6-set, if you're at attack speeds to unlock those hydra breakpoints, that's over 2 APS, so ~8000% wpn dmg/sec
So you have three major sources of damage:
~6600% wpn dmg/sec as Fire from Mammoth
~8000%/sec from magic missile of an as of yet chosen element
~1250%/sec of a fixed element, lets say arcane or just anything but fire.
Are you really gonna let such a small fraction of your damage determine the effect of the rune you choose on your main damage dealer? No you're not. You're gonna choose the least sucky rune and the element that has the best legendary item support. Which is by far Fire with magic missile mirrorball.
Now maybe if you pick any of the other shitty spells listed on the 6-set they'll be dealing damage so low that you need to lean on the 4-set for your damage, but not true with MM-Conflag.
You wouldn't use Hydra in the first place, Arcane Orb would out power Hydra, since you wouldn't opt for Tasker. The Average Wizard has usually only 1.5 AS, but lots of damage. Having a lot of Attack Speed for a MM Build is pointless also, since higher GR you can't stand still to use all that AS.
In the above video my set-up had initially zero buffs/debuffs, 2966 Intel, 344 min damage, and 344 max damage (min=max can be achieved with legacy gear that has +min damage on it). I used magic missile which lands for 230% weapon damage so the equation is:
2.30 * (1 + 2966/100) * (344) = 24,258
I then added a 10% buff from unruned magic weapon:
The fact that each subsequent bonus adds to previous ones within the same set of parenthesis is what I mean when I say a buff is addtive, as opposed to a strictly multiplicative bonus like Bane of the Trapped or Audacity that always increases your actual damage dealt by the exact % listed on their tooltips. And group-wide debuffs on mobs that cause them to take more damage, such as the ones I listed in my other post are definitely additive in the same group as the above tested buffs using the sense of the word I just described.
Wow, talk about counter intuitive... Holy crap -.-
BDF2000 the sentence 'The toxin debuff is additive with simplicity's strength, along with force weapon, strongarm bracers, sparkflint, glass cannon and all of those type of buffs.' is not true. Skills that improve your damage(glass cannon) are additive with each other, skills that increase damage taken by enemies (toxin gem) are not counted with them. The pure dmg that you will do with conflagrate magic missiles and 2 APS to a target inside slow time bubble is 6*(230*3*2+130)+1250 = 10310, exactly the number you gave. After adding skill bonuses, ele bonuses and all the other ones, it looks like my ancient mirrorball will be quite useful ^^ It may (MAY, not sure about that) even outperform arcane orb spamming if no orb-improving item comes to existence.
Yep, especially if you add the 50% of Simplicity's Strength. If we ignore the (potential) Arcane Damage from Bubble and go with the best MM, Conflag, then it will, just with the Gem, do 345% on Hit + 195% over 3 seconds, meaning that even if only 2 balls hit, it still does more damage than an Obliterate. On the other hand, a Furnaced Obliterate will allow us to see an ungodly huge damage XD
And in the future, in general you should really not include buffs/debuffs in your calculations of wpn% dmg dealt other than straight unique multipliers specific to the example you're talking about. In this case that would mean ignoring any and all buffs other than the set bonus itself.
I have to laugh at your less than specific calculations. Also, this is a discussion of potential build, not raw power.
In my case I didn't even consider Simplicity's Strength in my calculation for Mirror Ball + Magic Missile, that would ramp up even more the damage. Plus, mine isn't just about MMMM build, but also Arcane Orb, that will most likely receive an item that will ramp it up followed by this blue answer "@Jonnzz methods to support various arcane orb builds would be awesome. Half cost would be on way to do it but there are many others."
Mine does a bit of roundabout, but gives you the basis of calculation, not only of Pure Weapon Damage gain, but also with basic buffs on it. I won't waste time going in depth since more than likely the set will change when 2.2 comes out.
Still waiting for the lightning themed set. Preferably one that does not include and orb/helm in the set itself... allowing mass electrocute (Camarel+Myken's) and some other spell to be used. Personally, I love my current setup then main thing it lacks is the survivability and single target damage of fire. However, in clearing/controlling packs mass electrocute+pain enhancer, poison, and conduit gems is hard to top. (keep in mind electrocute gets double the benefit from pain enhancer's AS bonus)
Heck, I'd just be happy for an item that gives some defensive worth to storm armor.
But more in line with the topic... has anyone seen what kind of damage the 4pc does? Does it default to arcane, or is it another damage type that matches your highest +elemental damage?
Well, since it's damage from the Slow Time, I'm assuming Arcane, since all Slow Time are Arcane, unless they change that on 2.2
so, is this item set actually in season 2? has anyone been able to get it or at least see any of the pieces? so far i havent seen anything new as far as legendaries or sets go in s2, only whats been shown in screenshots and blue posts.
It's for patch 2.2, it will probably hit close to July.
The set items that were shown at BlizzCon are currently planned for patch 2.2 and as such will not be available in Season 2. Whether or not those sets will be Season-only has yet to be determined though.
There's a high chance that the new sets will be season-only based on this quote. It could go either way, but the fact that they're not sure about it means that they think about making them season-only as a season reward.
Enjoy your new Delsere gameplay in season 4 guys.
I sure hope the Tal'Rasha revamp will be equal or better than Firebird, or else you'll die of boredom before getting your hands on Delsere if you don't plan on playing Seasonal.
People would be REALLY pissed if they gated a 6p Set in Season, so I don't think it will be Season Gated.
For Tal'Rasha, I believe that if Vyr's 4p made Archons spells be ALL elementals, that means they do damage as every single elemental, it would be a great synergy with Tal'Rasha, maybe enough to make it viable.
@Lubsu, Good luck on your long term injuries. If you feel something is hard on your body and you keep doing it, it will take it's toll eventually, and you will deeply regret being stubborn.
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Question, would Mirror Image proc the effect from the 6p and deal a lot of damage also?
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BDF, did you just choose to ignore that I just said that the ONLY Wizard in the top 1000 4's didn't have a single AS item? He was running an AoE build of Black Hole + Blizzard + Hydra. Nobody runs that build that I know of -.-
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Problem is, MM + AO + Hydra + Slow Time + Blink + Prismatic Armor, that is 6. So you wouldn't have the 20% from Force Weapon. I believe the damage from Hydra isn't worth the loss of 20%.
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Here's the thing, there is no way in hell that a skill would be SO imbalanced, that it beats another skill receiving a 500% buff. To prove my point, check the top 100 Wizards in Solo, you will not find a single one going Tasker and AS builds, simply because Hydra aren't worth it.
And about the top 100 Ladder, you kidding right? You really wanna look at the cookie cutters? Find me a group in the top 1000 that isn't a freaking group of 1 WD, 1 Crusader, 2 DH. There are exactly 3 Barbs, 1 Monk, 1 Wiz in it. And the Wiz? Absolutely 0 items that give attack speed, the only item that increased Hydra is from his Cindercoat, that is because he had to reroll for Sockets. So I guess your point didn't make sense at all.
How about the top 1000 of 3's? 2 Barbs and 2 Monks, that was it. All others were WD, DH, Crusader.
All of those are tryhard groups, that are going with the very best of efficiency, that is not the norm. Most of us play with friends, that will play whatever class they feel like playing, in whatever role they feel like playing, of whatever build they like. That is the norm.
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The thing is, the bonus from the 6p applies to Arcane Orb also, making it stronger than Hydra. You are also assuming groups have tiki docs, that isn't the norm. Most cases you will have to be mobile, so having a high amount of AS doesn't help all that much.
For the Time Slow helm, it gives a ton of utility, including +10% AS for allies in it and +10% extra damage to enemies. Plus, it gives stun and huge slow. The stun and slow will help a LOT in GR, since it will allow for great mobility. No, I doubt that Hydra will be part of Opus build, but only time will tell.
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You wouldn't use Hydra in the first place, Arcane Orb would out power Hydra, since you wouldn't opt for Tasker. The Average Wizard has usually only 1.5 AS, but lots of damage. Having a lot of Attack Speed for a MM Build is pointless also, since higher GR you can't stand still to use all that AS.
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1250% dmg a sec is nothing to be skipped, especially if you can get about 60% of that element damage, that will in turn make it 2000% a sec.
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Wow, talk about counter intuitive... Holy crap -.-
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Yep, especially if you add the 50% of Simplicity's Strength. If we ignore the (potential) Arcane Damage from Bubble and go with the best MM, Conflag, then it will, just with the Gem, do 345% on Hit + 195% over 3 seconds, meaning that even if only 2 balls hit, it still does more damage than an Obliterate. On the other hand, a Furnaced Obliterate will allow us to see an ungodly huge damage XD
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I have to laugh at your less than specific calculations. Also, this is a discussion of potential build, not raw power.
In my case I didn't even consider Simplicity's Strength in my calculation for Mirror Ball + Magic Missile, that would ramp up even more the damage. Plus, mine isn't just about MMMM build, but also Arcane Orb, that will most likely receive an item that will ramp it up followed by this blue answer "@Jonnzz methods to support various arcane orb builds would be awesome. Half cost would be on way to do it but there are many others."
Mine does a bit of roundabout, but gives you the basis of calculation, not only of Pure Weapon Damage gain, but also with basic buffs on it. I won't waste time going in depth since more than likely the set will change when 2.2 comes out.
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Good question, but I doubt it will be that bad. The same can be said about most ranged attacks tbh.
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Well, since it's damage from the Slow Time, I'm assuming Arcane, since all Slow Time are Arcane, unless they change that on 2.2
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I'm just hoping 2.2 brings in a lot on new legendary powers, in order to play around with builds.
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It's for patch 2.2, it will probably hit close to July.
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People would be REALLY pissed if they gated a 6p Set in Season, so I don't think it will be Season Gated.
For Tal'Rasha, I believe that if Vyr's 4p made Archons spells be ALL elementals, that means they do damage as every single elemental, it would be a great synergy with Tal'Rasha, maybe enough to make it viable.