PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
You can take the variables sequentially from the user so it is easier to put them in, but then just line them up like that in your output. I think you'd have to do formatting on each 'level' cell if you wanted to change the font size or something for emphasis.
While it would increase readability for 1024 viewers, I think it would have a deteriorating effect for all other resolutions, as they effectively would have to scroll, while at present that is not necessary.
Of course you could always split that into two columns as well, but then that's no better than what we currently have.
Quote from "Rousse" »
On images, how are you guys getting the skill icon & tab files? Are you pulling them out of the game files? If so is there a naming convention for them? I have an MPQ viewier/extractor, but uh, some of Blizz's naming conventions are a bit hard to fiigure out (unless i'm looking in the wrong place)
Well I think Seth screenshots the tabs, but that's a guess.
I extract all images from the game files. And yes, there is a naming convention. I recommend you use Dr Tester however, it's located in the zip file in this thread unless I mistake myself: http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17818
It allows you to view images directly before extracting them. Skill icons have to be converted from .gif files however, as all icons for one class are stored in one .gif image.
Quote from "Absolut" »
I was able to find those pics of a clean screenshot with the class name for each class. I hope that is helpful and something you consider keeping.
What pictures exacly?
Quote from "Seth" »
Holy crap, Phrozen, that new Hydra page is a lot more informative. I like that a lot. It's also laid out very clearly and logically.
Thanks. So are we basically happy with the structure now?
The one thing missing is a breakpoint notice for the max level, but I think it will do itself better as a piece of text in the necessary articles instead of being a part of the ksill template itself.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
You put up the wrong link, though. You need to link in that bracket as well.
God damn it!
Quote from "Zhar" »
Btw, dunno if this has been suggested or not, but perhaps we could use that image of the skill tree as the main article for fire skills, then link the skill pages to their respective icons?
It was suggested by zhuge actually, and it is possible in wikipedia with an extension installed as far as I understand. Will see if we can't get that into the wiki.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Your link has a paren missing from the end of the URL. But that page looks sweet, that will definitely work. That is just a "how it looks" page right? Are you going to make a template with variables to fill in, or should we just copy the template and fill it in as needed?
Yes, this is what it will typically look like when it's filled out, all the fields will be filled out by variable parameters.
Quote from "Rousse" »
I think I have an idea how to do a vertical table with variables, but there really is no point, I think this way looks fine.
Well it's your call, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.
Quote from "Rousse" »
Side notes: did you change the formatting for sections? I don't recall having a horizontal line accompany each section before, but I could be wrong.
That was a changed by DoranM at my request yes. I felt it was hard to differentiate between 2 a 3 level headings, and it was indeed supposed to look like this originally.
Quote from "Rousse" »
Is there a method for searching the uploaded file list that works better than the default? I've just been been looking at the list in 500 file segments and using browser-find lol.
Added synergies, had completely forgotten about that. Currently all data has to be added manually, so it takes a while to complete.
I also utilized the citation system that w actually have, and included Seth's annotation as a source, but expanded a bit upon it.
Currently the table supports up to six pre-req skills (only Lower Resist has that many as far as I know) and up to four different variables. Mana cost and damage are always there, the others have to be specified. If the skills doesn't do any damage damage won't display. I couldn't have added all possible stats, as it would have required thousands of extra lines, so this is a much better solution. Check the code of the hydra page and the template if you wish
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I think it works quite well. Tested it for 1152x864 and it looks good, only 1024x78 gets a little tight. Still, I don't really know how to implement a verttical idea in a good way, so unless yo give me an idea there I don't really know what to do.
Tell me if you have any gripes with this setup so we can get to implementing the skill pages finally.
Quote from "Rousse" »
*Edit* just came across something else. The skill tree pages. I don't think we need a template, Seth's example with the sorc skills works very well. http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Cold_Spells
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I created a test using my Sandbox that shows what molten boulder would look like using 2 10 level tables, and all the exact formatting phrozen had in the original, except I changed the text to center aligned. Its kinda big, kinda bulky, but every skill is there, and easy to find. I think it works, but the table is bigger than the rest of the info, looks a bit odd.
I see what you mean. It looks a little moshed up, but perhaps if the levels were emphasized more it would look better? Altenratively we could also skip the second header that says level 11-20, that could perhaps make it a little less bulky.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Possible solutions to skill boxes are to list only odd skills 1-19, or do two 10 skill layers. This could be bad for skills with 4 variables though, would look kinda bulky. You could also try to decrease the cell width, but thats probably a bad idea since some skills will be xxx-xxx damage.
Well the browser automatically just sizes things down. I think I have some cell padding in there still, and with 20+ cells, that's got to add upp. It still won't fix it for one row though.
Can't two rows would out better though somehow? I think I might experiment with that, see how it will look at least.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
ah will it work if you embed a scroll bar into it so it shows only half of it at the beggining and you can scroll right to see other half (assuming that looks good and acceptable)
Yeah that kind of obstructs the design I think. Then you can't overview everything at once with a glance, you'll have to go in and click back and forth.
There are two solutions that I can think of. Either we split it into two rows, one with 10 skills each, or, we move the skills further down so the image to the right doesn't obstruct the line. The second solution will still be problematic for lower resolutions, however it won't be impossible as it is currently.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
theres a way you may be able to do it using the picture
having each skill icon link to the specific page
That's not what I meant.
I meant listing 20 levels of damage, range and duration increments on one row won't work for smaller resolutions. How much damage hydra does level 1, level 2, level 3, level 4 etc. It's going to look really bad and mashed up.
On another note though, I was thinking of linking to articles through the skill tab procided on the page. It requires installing a plugin for the wiki software first however, so I'll need to check if we can do that.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking it would be better to leave off class specific item bonuses from the skill pages, IE like wands giving potential bonuses to skeletons. With the exception of skills like Holy Shield, that only appear very rarely on items, I think that might deserve a small note. I don't know if there are any other skills that do that, HS is the only one I know of off the top of my head.
That seems sensible. Listing all items with +skeletons just for the necromancer would perhaps be a bit redundant.
But oskills will be included. Good, that gives us a pretty nice list of what is to appear as of now:
Name
Class
Prerequisite skills
Skill details for 20 levels
Skill detail for level where deminishing skills max.
Large image to the right to show where it is positionend in the skill tree.
Skill description
Synergies
Links to oskill items with that particular skill
Anything else?
I'd really like to create a comprehensive template for all of this, but I won't be home again until sunday, so I don't know if I'll be able to do anything about it before then.
Template isn't done, but that's what I've come up with so far.
First obvioius problem, there's no way we'll be able to fit 20 skills on one row for smaller resolutions, and I don't know how it will look on larger yet. The monitor I'm on at the moment (;)) can't display anything bigger than 1024x768, so I'm a bit limited at the moment.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I threw together a test/sample table in a few mins on my Talk Page (Wasn't sure where to do a test/sample page.)
You can crete your own sandbox for that. On you user page, create a link saying [[/Sandbox]]. Follow the link and create your own personal page to use for testing. That's how I usually test large templates without messing around with the rest of the wiki.
Quote from "Rousse" »
Obviously color standards would help, but I don't think it looks half-bad. Can maybe split it into two groups of 10 like Seth has on the older Hydra page, but I don't think that's necessary. If it goes towards the bottom of the skill page, the long 20 table shouldn't interfere with anything.
It depends, perhaps lower resolutions could mess perhaps mess it up. We'll have to test it.
Quote from "Rousse" »
Phrozen, for the +skills items, do you mean things like Enigma adding to teleport or Bloodletter adding to sword mastery & whirlwind? It might be good for the few skills that can cross classes via runewords to have a special note signifying this, with the item page linked of course.
I meant that if I go to the Sorceress teleport page and look at it, there will be a list at the bottom showing what items come with teleport on them (in this case, that's just enigma). Likewise if I go to Summon Skeleton, I will find a complete list of all unique, set and runeword items that have +to Summon skeleton. That way you can easily see what items will benefit your build.
Quote from "Rousse" »
The only other thing I can think of, is if you're doing a template is to include fields for whether a skill is Active or Passive, and the damage school. (School is actually already used on the new hydra page.)
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
What constitutes a diminishing return cap for a skill page though? For conviction it is easy because it hard locks at 150, but most other skills continue to increase at much lower rates.
For example, critical strike, every point below 7 increases the value at least 3 percent, between 7 and 13 is 2-3 percent, and every point after 13 is 1 or less. For all practical purposes, the skill caps out at 77% at level 42. What parts of this information should be on the wiki? For this skill it seems to have 2 split points, through the second is much harsher.
Well the actual limit for critical strike is 80% it appears. There are no calculations present in skills.txt however. I'll need to look around and see if I can find the actual calculations somewhere. It seems they are natural logarithms though.
As for what to put up, I'm thinking for skills that do have these diminishing increases, we'll simply put in the top value, and the amount of skills points required to get there. Of course that may well be outside of the 20 range, but since we will definately include a table listing all levels up to 20, it shouldn't be that hard for a reader to figure out that if 20 points give 68% while 60 points give 80%, there's no need to spend all that much on it if you have +skill items. The first 20 levels are the most important anyway.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Oh, yes, I see... Hm. Where would we get information on the diminishing return caps for skills, though? Would that just be analytical work?
Well that might prove trickier than I though. It's definatel in the files, but I coulnd't say for certain why the cutoffs are where they are. But they seem to be 70% for lower resist and 150 for Conviction.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
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Of course you could always split that into two columns as well, but then that's no better than what we currently have.
Well I think Seth screenshots the tabs, but that's a guess.
I extract all images from the game files. And yes, there is a naming convention. I recommend you use Dr Tester however, it's located in the zip file in this thread unless I mistake myself: http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17818
It allows you to view images directly before extracting them. Skill icons have to be converted from .gif files however, as all icons for one class are stored in one .gif image.
What pictures exacly?
Thanks. So are we basically happy with the structure now?
The one thing missing is a breakpoint notice for the max level, but I think it will do itself better as a piece of text in the necessary articles instead of being a part of the ksill template itself.
It was suggested by zhuge actually, and it is possible in wikipedia with an extension installed as far as I understand. Will see if we can't get that into the wiki.
Well it's your call, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.
That was a changed by DoranM at my request yes. I felt it was hard to differentiate between 2 a 3 level headings, and it was indeed supposed to look like this originally.
Yes. Check out the Category:Browse and look under images. Originally almost all images were uncategorized, but back in June I think I organized almost all of them. The ones that aren't yet in a category are visible here http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Special:UncategorizedImages
EDIT:
Ok, remade the page into a template and reformatted the Hydra page with it: http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Hydra_(Diablo_II)
Added synergies, had completely forgotten about that. Currently all data has to be added manually, so it takes a while to complete.
I also utilized the citation system that w actually have, and included Seth's annotation as a source, but expanded a bit upon it.
Currently the table supports up to six pre-req skills (only Lower Resist has that many as far as I know) and up to four different variables. Mana cost and damage are always there, the others have to be specified. If the skills doesn't do any damage damage won't display. I couldn't have added all possible stats, as it would have required thousands of extra lines, so this is a much better solution. Check the code of the hydra page and the template if you wish
http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Hydra_(Diablo_II)
http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Template:Infobox_Skills_(Diablo_II)
I think it works quite well. Tested it for 1152x864 and it looks good, only 1024x78 gets a little tight. Still, I don't really know how to implement a verttical idea in a good way, so unless yo give me an idea there I don't really know what to do.
Tell me if you have any gripes with this setup so we can get to implementing the skill pages finally.
That definately looks good. We can go with that.
Though as of now, that's no good either, since you can't clearly see where the levels row is either.
I see what you mean. It looks a little moshed up, but perhaps if the levels were emphasized more it would look better? Altenratively we could also skip the second header that says level 11-20, that could perhaps make it a little less bulky.
Can't two rows would out better though somehow? I think I might experiment with that, see how it will look at least.
There are two solutions that I can think of. Either we split it into two rows, one with 10 skills each, or, we move the skills further down so the image to the right doesn't obstruct the line. The second solution will still be problematic for lower resolutions, however it won't be impossible as it is currently.
I meant listing 20 levels of damage, range and duration increments on one row won't work for smaller resolutions. How much damage hydra does level 1, level 2, level 3, level 4 etc. It's going to look really bad and mashed up.
On another note though, I was thinking of linking to articles through the skill tab procided on the page. It requires installing a plugin for the wiki software first however, so I'll need to check if we can do that.
But oskills will be included. Good, that gives us a pretty nice list of what is to appear as of now:
Name
Class
Prerequisite skills
Skill details for 20 levels
Skill detail for level where deminishing skills max.
Large image to the right to show where it is positionend in the skill tree.
Skill description
Synergies
Links to oskill items with that particular skill
Anything else?
I'd really like to create a comprehensive template for all of this, but I won't be home again until sunday, so I don't know if I'll be able to do anything about it before then.
EDIT:
http://wiki.diablofans.com/index.php/Template:Infobox_Skills_%28Diablo_II%29
Template isn't done, but that's what I've come up with so far.
First obvioius problem, there's no way we'll be able to fit 20 skills on one row for smaller resolutions, and I don't know how it will look on larger yet. The monitor I'm on at the moment (;)) can't display anything bigger than 1024x768, so I'm a bit limited at the moment.
It depends, perhaps lower resolutions could mess perhaps mess it up. We'll have to test it.
I meant that if I go to the Sorceress teleport page and look at it, there will be a list at the bottom showing what items come with teleport on them (in this case, that's just enigma). Likewise if I go to Summon Skeleton, I will find a complete list of all unique, set and runeword items that have +to Summon skeleton. That way you can easily see what items will benefit your build.
Definately, those are good suggestions.
As for what to put up, I'm thinking for skills that do have these diminishing increases, we'll simply put in the top value, and the amount of skills points required to get there. Of course that may well be outside of the 20 range, but since we will definately include a table listing all levels up to 20, it shouldn't be that hard for a reader to figure out that if 20 points give 68% while 60 points give 80%, there's no need to spend all that much on it if you have +skill items. The first 20 levels are the most important anyway.