Just to add I made Excel spreadsheet for sentry damage clculation before patch. What I did was: record game play and play it over and over again 100 times. Then I get same numbers I see in video in my excel calculator. That was my main source of information. I spent about one week to figure out what type of buffs are additive and multiplicative. So I think I have good knowledge about basic game mechanics. How much time did you spent on research?
I can't say i spent time on research so to speak but i read forums and discuss with friends. I also play all classes so i'm not the most knowledgable in one specific class (especially not the dh). But that has nothing to do with this. I am telling you that you get 0 hatred issues in trials with a 0dog in group if done right. I tried it and it works, tell me i'm wrong now?
With 1 sentry up you have 200%, when it is 5 you have 600%, with 15% sentry damage you have 500*1.15+100= 675% damage
I wrote: "One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%." and it's the exact same thing. The damage increment is 500%.
@Jamoose So you say when you increase 100% damage with 500% you still get 500%? Explain how. You cant explain that. I used example where you buff 0% damage by 500% just to show you that you are wrong. I talked about gear for GR and not for trials if that is not obvious then I don't know what is.
[quote]This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.
My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.
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One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%.
"almost no one has that" is irrelevant, i was talking about a specific setup and with that setup, you don't run out of hatred in trials, period. I tried it, i got high keys with it and i also tried non 0dog trials and also got high keys with it. 58 was highest without 0dog iirc... didn't do enough trials with 0dog to see if we can break 58 tbh.
This: "0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR" is simply false.
My arguments are 100% valid and i'm talking from self experience. I am not top whatever in solo but i do have high gr clears in groups and on most classes over 40 in solo. Anyway "if you did not know" you can use wd in trials.
"Pretty sure that's not how it works. With 5 sentries out, your damage is boosted by 500%, that's it. You don't deal 100% damage + 500%... You deal 500% of your original damage. Attack speed is the best roll on weapons and gloves when you have a 0dog wd in group and you are doing trials or 4p with a crusader too that can consistently pickup health globes."
I am pretty sure you are wrong.
If you have 0 sentries out you can still fire and do damage that's 100% damage (original damage) I am talking about. For every active sentry you get 100% increased damage. For 5 it is 500% increased damage. If you increase 0 damage by 500% you still get 0. You are increasing your original damage that 100% that I talked about. The only possible question you could have is if that 500% is added or multiplied to/with 100% original damage and I am pretty sure it is additive if it was multiplicative it would be too much.
Now lets take a look at sentry damage. Marauder set increase damage only for your own shots. Sentry shots are not buffed by marauder set bonus so each sentry will fire at 100% original damage unbuffed (you can buff that with %CA/%Sentry on gear but I don't talk about that now). Five sentry will shoot 5*100%=500%.
So it is clear that you do more damage then sentries do.
And about attack speed..... With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon. Also with as many HP globes there you would still run out of hatred. When you use wolf all HP globes are gone for example. On boss you cant spawn that many globes anyway. Now difference between 18 shots *if you use RCR) and 15 shots (if you don't) ( 1 hatred pool, wolf and preparation) is: 15/18 = 0.8333 1-0.8333=0.16666 about 16%.
Damage to elites is better on weapon then AS also.
Still, i think that you are wrong. When you have 0 sentries out you deal 100% of your damage which is the normal damage you deal... You don't deal 0% damage, you deal 100% of your damage... If you take into account CA and sentry damage on gear, the CA benefits both you and the sentries, and sentry damage benefits only sentries, that's why, if the sentries are all shooting at one target, they will deal more damage than you are, to that specific target.
This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.
Discussing Area Damage on shoulders is pretty retarded, tbh. Dex/CDR/AD/Sentry or Dex/RCR/AD/Sentry. Sorry to shut down discussion but why would you pick one or the other when you can have both?
Because you can have dex, cdr, rcr, sentry - which is ideal imo for most setups.
You do more damage then your sentries do. Your own shot is 100% + 500% boost from each sentry placed on the ground. That is 600%. And 5 sentry hit for 5*100%=500%. So out of 1100% total damage you do about 55% and sentries about 45%. Getting CA on the offhand is smart because that way you buff bigger part of your damage and that is your own shots.
Also Attack speed on weapon is nearly useless in almost any type of setup.
Pretty sure that's not how it works. With 5 sentries out, your damage is boosted by 500%, that's it. You don't deal 100% damage + 500%... You deal 500% of your original damage. Attack speed is the best roll on weapons and gloves when you have a 0dog wd in group and you are doing trials or 4p with a crusader too that can consistently pickup health globes.
@Jamoose the reason you don't want sentry dmg on shoulders is because im looking it at a point of view of aoe dmg> single target because that means you will clear faster the trash and the elites. Now because your sentry cant proc area dmg and they also only deal about 40% of ur dmg buffing that 40% by a further 15% is next to nothing compared buffing the other 60%, this is because this 60% dmg can actually cause area dmg which scales really well.
So for instance you have 70% area dmg and say you hit for say around 700M cluster arrow and there are no other mobs around area dmg does nothing as we know but the second there is 2 mobs and your hitting those 2 mobs for 700M and area dmg procs from both mobs that 700M cast goes from a total of 1400M dmg to 2380M dmg. Now lets make it 3 mobs 700M cluster arrow and area dmg procs from the 3 mobs thats 2100M with out area dmg and with area dmg its 5040M.
So this is why area dmg is a very good stat compared to buffing that 40% dmg from sentry, in reality that 40% dmg from sentry isn't actualy 40% is actualy like 20%. but its too hard to explain to people because they don't want to listen or take into account the area dmg affix.
If your numbers are correct, then it still means that sentry damage is better for the RG. Which means that your statement "means you will clear faster the trash and the elites" is wrong. In high gr the biggest obstacles are elites and the RG and often times you are left with just that one big elite with 20% hp after everything around it already died, this is a scenario where sentry damage will beat area damage by a 100 to 0...
It's off topic but i was talking about when you have a 0dog wd in group, you can give up on rcr on shoulders and go for area damage (also on quiver). According to a psot Shinna made where he tested what's better, ias or area damage, it is concluded that going for ias on gloves + weapon is better than area damage.
So in summary, sentry damage is more consistent throughout the rift including on single elites and the RG. Aread damage is an awesome dps stat roll but there are simply other stats that are too valuable for you to give up on in favor of area damage, that's why you usually don't see many people running it. It's not because "they don't want to listen or take into account the area dmg affix." but mainly because it's hard to get perfect quivers and on shoulders (in solo mainly) you really want both the rcr and cdr...
just a small tip its a higher DPS gain to get area dmg on shoulders as your casted Cluster arrow hits for about 1 billion compared to like 50M from the sentry so getting sentry dmg on the shoulders is a dps/dmg loss.
1 billion compared to like 50m? That has to be wrong. the sentries deal the same damage as you are if they are all hitting the same target. Sentry damage is still very useful and required for optimizing dps output.
Area damage is useful when you have a 0dog wd in group and you don't really need the RCR anymore so you go for area damage instead of RCR on shoulders and quiver only. On crossbow and gloves you go for attack speed.
Generally speaking though, all of this is unrelated to the OP. You want sentry damage on chest + shoulders. You want CA/MS damage on quiver, boots and helm. %Sentry damage boosts all of the damage done by your sentries.
The only reason why CA dmg is better than sentry damage is because for your own CA shot, you can accurately aim where you want it to hit and spam it, actively bringing down specific mobs. Sentry damage will only work that way if there is exactly one mob and all of the sentries are in range, shooting it. It can also work similarly if a group of mobs is bunched up together, as long as they are all inside the range of the CA shot which is about 15 yards afaik... When there are multiple monsters on your screen, the sentry damage becomes scattered and not as reliable as your direct CA shots.
In short, %sentry damage will boost all damage done by your sentries so that includes spenders too. Sentries will deal 50% of your total damage output if they are all hitting the same mob so %sentry damage is a good roll to go for on shoulders and chest.
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I can't say i spent time on research so to speak but i read forums and discuss with friends. I also play all classes so i'm not the most knowledgable in one specific class (especially not the dh). But that has nothing to do with this. I am telling you that you get 0 hatred issues in trials with a 0dog in group if done right. I tried it and it works, tell me i'm wrong now?
I wrote: "One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%." and it's the exact same thing. The damage increment is 500%.
My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.
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One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%.
"almost no one has that" is irrelevant, i was talking about a specific setup and with that setup, you don't run out of hatred in trials, period. I tried it, i got high keys with it and i also tried non 0dog trials and also got high keys with it. 58 was highest without 0dog iirc... didn't do enough trials with 0dog to see if we can break 58 tbh.
This: "0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR" is simply false.
My arguments are 100% valid and i'm talking from self experience. I am not top whatever in solo but i do have high gr clears in groups and on most classes over 40 in solo. Anyway "if you did not know" you can use wd in trials.
This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.
If your numbers are correct, then it still means that sentry damage is better for the RG. Which means that your statement "means you will clear faster the trash and the elites" is wrong. In high gr the biggest obstacles are elites and the RG and often times you are left with just that one big elite with 20% hp after everything around it already died, this is a scenario where sentry damage will beat area damage by a 100 to 0...
It's off topic but i was talking about when you have a 0dog wd in group, you can give up on rcr on shoulders and go for area damage (also on quiver). According to a psot Shinna made where he tested what's better, ias or area damage, it is concluded that going for ias on gloves + weapon is better than area damage.
So in summary, sentry damage is more consistent throughout the rift including on single elites and the RG. Aread damage is an awesome dps stat roll but there are simply other stats that are too valuable for you to give up on in favor of area damage, that's why you usually don't see many people running it. It's not because "they don't want to listen or take into account the area dmg affix." but mainly because it's hard to get perfect quivers and on shoulders (in solo mainly) you really want both the rcr and cdr...
Area damage is useful when you have a 0dog wd in group and you don't really need the RCR anymore so you go for area damage instead of RCR on shoulders and quiver only. On crossbow and gloves you go for attack speed.
Generally speaking though, all of this is unrelated to the OP. You want sentry damage on chest + shoulders. You want CA/MS damage on quiver, boots and helm. %Sentry damage boosts all of the damage done by your sentries.
The only reason why CA dmg is better than sentry damage is because for your own CA shot, you can accurately aim where you want it to hit and spam it, actively bringing down specific mobs. Sentry damage will only work that way if there is exactly one mob and all of the sentries are in range, shooting it. It can also work similarly if a group of mobs is bunched up together, as long as they are all inside the range of the CA shot which is about 15 yards afaik... When there are multiple monsters on your screen, the sentry damage becomes scattered and not as reliable as your direct CA shots.
In short, %sentry damage will boost all damage done by your sentries so that includes spenders too. Sentries will deal 50% of your total damage output if they are all hitting the same mob so %sentry damage is a good roll to go for on shoulders and chest.