Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
It is understandable that you are exhausted addressing this argument, because it isn't mine nor from the others you have addressed to. They are from Blizzard, it's official. I'm not saying that I agree with them, IMO a PVP ladder would be fine, I wouldn't try it, but many people would. That's fine by me.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
Now you are changing the original subject (or what I thought was the original subject), you are NOT asking for more PVP, you are asking for a Custom Game feature, which may or may not be followed by a public map creator just like SC2 and WC3. I think Blizzard already discarded that idea for some reasons I can't remember, search for them if you like, but while I believe the expasions will bring news to the known systems just as improve PVP modes, I don't believe in anything far different from the game focus.
And calm down, my posts contain no arguments, just some quotes from Blizzard and some opinions (which are very well determined when they start and end). I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just trying to make you remember abou some announcements that showed that Blizzard have a different focus for D3.
I'm honestly just disappointed at the lack of imagination in the competition development of this game. The core game is fantastic, but it's really sad to see an extremely strong core engine and design go to waste on finite content that will be rolled through in a couple of months. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Diablo PvM, but it eventually ends. With systems in place that encourage competition, the game literally never ends, and actually begins to coincide synergistically with the PvM hamster-wheel game to achieve stronger and stronger characters to compete with.
For the record, those were just ideas. You basically asked what my I wanted, personally, from Diablo 3. I really don't see how implementing some competition modes into the game could be detrimental at all, or even require that much design time when compared with PvE content development. I actually think it would be extremely beneficial to the game and add new dynamics that would attract a wider player base.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
PvP isn't in the game.
PvP is in the game.
WoW has what i'm talking about.
I'm not talking about WoW.
lafu, i'm simply trying to identify where you're basing your arguments. You're saying that i'm taking your words out of context, but what is the context? What background am I looking at when we're talking about an ARPG with a ladder, half a dozen diffirent pvp modes, etc. Clearly it's not a game currently in production. Clearly it is how you would like D3 to be, but walk me through the thought process you're having.
I think we've established what pvp content is in, for sure. What we need to establish is, of what's "missing," or could be in, where it comes from and why (other than "just because") it should be in to complete part of what's already there and if we know where the ideas come from we can more easily discuss how it would complete D3.
At the most basic level, I'm simply asking for more development for PvP. Some balance between e-sports and unranked, meaningless TDM matches. That should be simple enough logic for most to follow. There is literally infinite amount of detail in between those 2 options. Hopefully the developers of this game dedicate some resources to that development, because it could add some incredible replay value and depth to the game after the dust settles and all the monsters are slain.
Everything else is simply ideas I've thrown out that I think would add some great flavor to the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I really don't see why everyone either classifies themselves as a "PvE" player or a "PvP" player. Surely there must be some like-minded folks out there who agree that a good mix would add some great flavor to the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
There's nothing wrong with some relative imbalance. That's part of what makes PvP in gear-based games fun. "Skill" in gear-based and build oriented games isn't only relegated to "twitch" reactions, it's also based off creating unique builds and finding counters by exploiting weaknesses. It's just a different type of competition than say counterstrike or Halo. In my opinion that's what makes it so fun and it's really a shame to see the competitive potential of Diablo 3 go down the drain with the virtually infinite amount of builds and counter-builds that would arise in a competitive environment.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Will PvP really be that unbalanced the way the game is right now? We don't even know, it could work out that the pvp is fairly fair. ALso PvP leagues will most likely be hosted on fansites and such anyways. I'm not convinced D3 PvP is screwed
remember the string of ears? the belt; it was actually made by blizzard as a sign to show "support" PvP because of all the pvmers complaining about pvp (in which you collect ears, go back to D1). where did this support go? sigh...
games are getting easier nowadays anyways. looking forward to D3!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
casuals doesn't mean stupid.. casuals are just people who don't play so often or don't take it so seriously ... But these people need things to be relatively simple.. Of course..would be possible to change every skill and suit it for PvP..but it would create a lot of confusion and many casuals just don't have time or will to learn zilions of different things.. so they just give up and quit the game..in addition..it would also take a lot of time to design and create this system for developers.. I think current system..that some runes will change skill into PvP skill is perfect..
here, here!
and not just casual gamers but mid-core gamers like me! i think i will try the pvp in d3...
games are getting easier nowadays anyways. looking forward to D3!!
your kidding - games are getting overly complicated... the basic mechanics are the same as they were 20 years ago, just hidden beneath 17 button mouses.
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
and they won't, but Bliz will loose out in the long run...
U.S. has about 2 million hardcore gamers compared to 143 million casual (and presumably mid-core, gaymers, girl gamers can fall into this cateigry also) [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_110/1344-The-Future-of-PC-Gaming-Isnt-You]
Note 2: the American Medical Association findings, which described MMORPG players as "somewhat marginalised socially, perhaps experiencing high levels of emotional loneliness and/or difficulty with real-life social interactions." The AMA will reconsider whether it will classify video game addiction as a mental disorder in 2012. - so Bliz is actually doing you a favour [http://asia.gamespot.com/news/6234793/study-hardcore-gamers-not-social-outcasts]
Although I dispute your entire premise that only the most hardcore gamers desire competition, your argument doesn't even follow a logical formula.
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I will most likely be PvPing no matter what. I enjoy bashing and smashing monster just as much as the next guy but I love beating in the skulls of my fellow gamers as well. I'm not super hardcore into anything PvP wise but I have played in the middle range WoW Arenas (1750+) and I was at one time a pretty high end Guild Wars PvPer. I love that Diablo III will have a PvP aspect but that is not exactly why the series thrived for as long as it did. It was casual game that everyone could play and reach a high level with awesome loot at an easy rate.
I hope the PvP isn't too overpowered by one or two classes but I don't expect Blizzard to really change anything dramatically after release. We just can't have the best of both worlds here unless Blizzard does what Guild Wars did after a while by making certain skills change when players entered PvP areas.
...
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
Because I (and I am not alone) would like to participate and compete at an equal level in the pvp arena using the same character I use in the game, i.e. without spending a tonne of additional time (I will already be spending a tonne of time on my game character) developing a different character that is specifically used if I want to play pvp.
I don't know what is involved in developing a pvp game that you and other disappointed gamers want, but I assume it is quite a lot, otherwise we could ALL have best of both worlds. i.e. 1/ normal game, 2/ pvp arena (using same characters as in-game), and 3/ pro-gamer arena (I think this is what you want where you have specific character builds just for pvp?)
...
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
Because I (and I am not alone) would like to participate and compete at an equal level in the pvp arena using the same character I use in the game, i.e. without spending a tonne of additional time (I will already be spending a tonne of time on my game character) developing a different character that is specifically used if I want to play pvp.
I don't know what is involved in developing a pvp game that you and other disappointed gamers want, but I assume it is quite a lot, otherwise we could ALL have best of both worlds. i.e. 1/ normal game, 2/ pvp arena (using same characters as in-game), and 3/ pro-gamer arena (I think this is what you want where you have specific character builds just for pvp?)
Wait.. so you want to exclude any form of competitive PvP because YOU aren't willing to put in the effort to compete? You simply want to be able to take any character into a competitive format without any thought input into choosing abilities that would be effective against other players?
Your statements are completely contradictory. If any given player could take any given character into PvP with no thought or experience and be successful.. there would be no competition and thus the system would be meaningless by definition. Do you understand how ridiculous your statements are?
It sounds like you don't really want to participate in "competitive" PvP, and that's absolutely fine. There should also be non ranked "skirmish" scenarios that would probably be perfect for a gamer like yourself only interested in PvP for entertainment, or killing time.. I don't really understand it, but whatever. For you to suggest that the rest of us don't deserve a respectable form of competition from Diablo 3 because you don't want to compete is just ass-backwards logic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I disagree. I think competitive formats (if done correctly) would attract an overwhelmingly large amount of the player base. I think E-sports style competition is what is relegated to the more hardcore players, and that's perfectly understandable to be honest, but there is SO MUCH potential with other competitive formats. I've talked about them exhaustively in other threads, check out this link if you're interested and bump the thread.
Completely revamping to cater to specific PvP players needs right now, I think, would be counter productive. Although I can see it, somewhat, happening in the distant future with updates and such.
I completely agree if it delays the game's release. Having said that, this content has too much potential to be ignored for future development, and it can't hurt to let the developers know that there is support behind these ideas.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I'm honestly just disappointed at the lack of imagination in the competition development of this game. The core game is fantastic, but it's really sad to see an extremely strong core engine and design go to waste on finite content that will be rolled through in a couple of months. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Diablo PvM, but it eventually ends. With systems in place that encourage competition, the game literally never ends, and actually begins to coincide synergistically with the PvM hamster-wheel game to achieve stronger and stronger characters to compete with.
For the record, those were just ideas. You basically asked what my I wanted, personally, from Diablo 3. I really don't see how implementing some competition modes into the game could be detrimental at all, or even require that much design time when compared with PvE content development. I actually think it would be extremely beneficial to the game and add new dynamics that would attract a wider player base.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
PvP isn't in the game.
PvP is in the game.
WoW has what i'm talking about.
I'm not talking about WoW.
lafu, i'm simply trying to identify where you're basing your arguments. You're saying that i'm taking your words out of context, but what is the context? What background am I looking at when we're talking about an ARPG with a ladder, half a dozen diffirent pvp modes, etc. Clearly it's not a game currently in production. Clearly it is how you would like D3 to be, but walk me through the thought process you're having.
I think we've established what pvp content is in, for sure. What we need to establish is, of what's "missing," or could be in, where it comes from and why (other than "just because") it should be in to complete part of what's already there and if we know where the ideas come from we can more easily discuss how it would complete D3.
Everything else is simply ideas I've thrown out that I think would add some great flavor to the game.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
remember the string of ears? the belt; it was actually made by blizzard as a sign to show "support" PvP because of all the pvmers complaining about pvp (in which you collect ears, go back to D1). where did this support go? sigh...
games are getting easier nowadays anyways. looking forward to D3!!
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
here, here!
and not just casual gamers but mid-core gamers like me! i think i will try the pvp in d3...
your kidding - games are getting overly complicated... the basic mechanics are the same as they were 20 years ago, just hidden beneath 17 button mouses.
and they won't, but Bliz will loose out in the long run...
U.S. has about 2 million hardcore gamers compared to 143 million casual (and presumably mid-core, gaymers, girl gamers can fall into this cateigry also) [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_110/1344-The-Future-of-PC-Gaming-Isnt-You]
Note 2: the American Medical Association findings, which described MMORPG players as "somewhat marginalised socially, perhaps experiencing high levels of emotional loneliness and/or difficulty with real-life social interactions." The AMA will reconsider whether it will classify video game addiction as a mental disorder in 2012. - so Bliz is actually doing you a favour [http://asia.gamespot.com/news/6234793/study-hardcore-gamers-not-social-outcasts]
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I hope the PvP isn't too overpowered by one or two classes but I don't expect Blizzard to really change anything dramatically after release. We just can't have the best of both worlds here unless Blizzard does what Guild Wars did after a while by making certain skills change when players entered PvP areas.
Because I (and I am not alone) would like to participate and compete at an equal level in the pvp arena using the same character I use in the game, i.e. without spending a tonne of additional time (I will already be spending a tonne of time on my game character) developing a different character that is specifically used if I want to play pvp.
I don't know what is involved in developing a pvp game that you and other disappointed gamers want, but I assume it is quite a lot, otherwise we could ALL have best of both worlds. i.e. 1/ normal game, 2/ pvp arena (using same characters as in-game), and 3/ pro-gamer arena (I think this is what you want where you have specific character builds just for pvp?)
Wait.. so you want to exclude any form of competitive PvP because YOU aren't willing to put in the effort to compete? You simply want to be able to take any character into a competitive format without any thought input into choosing abilities that would be effective against other players?
Your statements are completely contradictory. If any given player could take any given character into PvP with no thought or experience and be successful.. there would be no competition and thus the system would be meaningless by definition. Do you understand how ridiculous your statements are?
It sounds like you don't really want to participate in "competitive" PvP, and that's absolutely fine. There should also be non ranked "skirmish" scenarios that would probably be perfect for a gamer like yourself only interested in PvP for entertainment, or killing time.. I don't really understand it, but whatever. For you to suggest that the rest of us don't deserve a respectable form of competition from Diablo 3 because you don't want to compete is just ass-backwards logic.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3182738500
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.