After playing my latest Martial Arts/Shadow Hybrid Sin on the latest ladder season, I've decided I have made a few mistakes with this controversial build. Why do I say it's controversial? I guess because most Sins worth their salt on Battle.net are either Trapsins or Kicksins. Why still? I've felt a small amount of pressure from time to time to create one of these builds instead of the one I'm so fond of. So to the ones who actually play with me, it is a bit controversial.
But in light of some recent and productive conversation between some buddies of mine, mostly with HnK, I decided that I've learned enough about my build to start a new Sin with some revisions to my previous build. The emphasis on this new build is slight more on the Martial Arts in the Shadow's stead.
The problem I've noticed with the Assassin is the way her skill tree is designed. Maybe it's this way with a few other classes, I don't know. But with the Sin, you have to spend significant amounts of skill points just to develop the skill tree with totally unrelated skills just to get to the ones you want.
For example, the Phoenix Strike (my primary charge up skill). It would be nice if I could just begin with the Fists of Fire, then to Claws of Thunder, then Blades of Ice, and lastly, Phoenix Strike. Those three prerequisites makes sense since they all get synergies from one another. But unfortunately to work your way up to Phoenix Strike, you also have to spend a skill point on both Tiger Strike and Cobra Strike. Why is this unfair? A Necromancers Bone Spirit requires only Teeth and Bone Spear and they all receive synergies from each other. Why should you have to spend on a prerequisite for skills that don't benefit the ones you're ultimately shooting for?
Some may claim this is part of the effort to balance the classes. C'bon. The Martial Arts Sin could easily get more bonuses and still never be nearly as powerful as other class builds I've seen. In fact, overall, this particular build is relatively one of the weakest. I say relatively cause on its own, it can survive in Hell just fine. But it can never kill monsters or duel the way some of the other classes are (it does however offer just a bit more diversity than other builds without sacrificing too much damage).
So now because I'm trying so hard to see the true potential in the Phoenix Strike synergies combined with the Dragon Claw finish, tipped with Venom, I'm making a few cuts in some other places.
The first one is I'm totally scrapping the Shadow Warrior and Master. At first I thought this skill was great for doing Key runs because the Shadow Master uses Mind Blast quite frequently as well as Death Sentry. The Master also has a decent enough amount of life that if you're are in a tight spot, it can take a lot of the monsters damage for you to get away safely. I'm scrapping it though because it simply requires too many prerequisites for what you get out of it. Most bullshit of all is that if you want it you have to spend a point on Psychic Hammer and Cloak of Shadows: two completely useless spells that have no bearing on the Shadow Master whatsoever. I can't figure out why they made these two skill a prerequisite for the Shadow Master. But I've decided it makes having the Shadow Master not worth the payoff. So my solution is merely to have a powerful Act 2 merc with Insight among other rune words if possible. Since my Sin itself doesn't require runewords, I can concentrate my rune collecting efforts on getting the particular runewords just for my merc.
That gives me 3 more skill points to put into the Phoenix synergies and maybe a little more into Venom (Weapon Block is still a good skill but you only need to spend one point on it). The remaining Shadow skill is the Burst of Speed. I think this time around I may spend only a single point on that and see how I manage. With the right equipment, I can easily get that up to 9-12. And once you're up that high with Burst of Speed, anything higher and you really can't tell the difference anyway. Before I was spending up to 4 points on this skill cause it's essential for a Martial Arts sin to be able to attack very rapidly. But with the items giving +1 to this skill, as well as when I get my Jade Talon, I should be just fine there.
Now for Traps. I still feel inclined to build Traps just enough for Death Sentry. Especially since I won't even have a Shadow Master to use it. Having Corpse Explosion in a party always comes in handy no matter what. And to build the skill tree to get to Death Sentry is fairly reasonable compared to the other level 30 skills for the Assassin. The only other skill I'm undecided on is Blade Fury. It really is a good skill since it fires quickly and does 3/4 of the damage of your equipped weapon and most importantly even benefits from the benefits of Claw Mastery. Blade Fury is really good for dealing with Physical Immunes. Or even I'm fighting something that I'd rather not get close to like a Stygian Doll - with a high attack rating I can take out a Hell Stygian Doll easily before it gets close to me using Blade Fury.
The last thing regarding stat points is that I still will put most skill points into Dex. For this type of build, your Dex is basically your Vit. With a high life (and mana) leech combined with a high attack rating, you almost never need to use potions by the time you get to Hell (with the exception of figting skeletons). Using Dragon Claw, you can bring your life from nearly empty to completely full with three rapid uses of this skill as long as you're using all the life leech you can get. Dueling can be fun too because certain classes that melee find it difficult to hit you.
Anyway, that's the revised build that I'll be going with this time. I look forward to getting this Sin up really high so I can get back to anyone who is interested what my final damage stats are and all that. Thanks for reading.
nice siaynoq im glad you found some fixes in your build. and i like that its your build, sorta origional in a sense. and if you need to figure out stuff for your build. have you tryed using hero editor. *SINGLE PLAYER ONLY* so maybe you could put your lvl and stat and skill points in there and try to make a awsome build. instead of making a new one everytime you find something that needs to be revised. just throwing it out there
I wish the Sin's Venom worked more like the Sorc's enchant. It would be really nice to be able to poison other party members' weapons. Not only that, but Venom maxed out lasts around 196 seconds. It goes by pretty quick when you're in the middle of lots of killing. Unlike the Sorc's enchant which maxed out lasts over 600 seconds. I don't know what the point of put such a short time limit on Venom. All it does is annoy the player cause they have to keep reactivating it.
Lol i helped ur char so much. lol its a nice build though. never really wanted to build a sin. glad u found a use for them other then the traps..... i hate traps >.<
Well if you need any additional help siay, i have built a martial arts sin before with a total of 109k damage after charges. Just let me know and I will dig up my build.
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Those before me shall quiver in my wake as I unleash the fury within!
i'm not sure what your sin is for (and what patch are you in 1.12?)
pve? keyruns.. and mfing? rushing? just everything?
and what gear are you using? just what you find? runewords? what restrictions what do you have access to?
reading over some of the things you took out.. well i'm a hardcore player so i build my characters maybe more defensively.. but to me a shadow master or warrior is a no brainer; no it wont tank for you that much but it lets you control mob movement which is even more important for a melee sin than for a trapper.
(mind blast at one point is also useful for the same reason: controlling mob behavior)
also you say that pyshic hammer and cloak of shadows are wasted points..cloak of shadow is like invaluable for pve.. it completely negates ranged attacks and gets things off of you
so anyway i disagree with you on those two points.
when you talk about melee sins getting a short end of the stick in pve.. yes i agree, but for different reasons.
i've also had a sin that had insane charge up+kick dmg (60k and higher) and it does absolutely nothing to mobs; the calculations seem bugged on the character display screen because you don't do that much dmg. test it on players test it on baal test it on regular mobs. you won't one hit them and it's excruciatingly disappointing.
one point in burst of speed is fine; i wouldn't put more on 99% of builds but it depends on your weapons and gear (if you were unable to hit a breakpoint with weapons/gear you might need to put more but not otherwise)
about blade fury i wouldn't ever put more than one point to it; it's not great for dealing with physical immunes in high player games unless you have high venom or amplify dmg or a million elemental/psn dmg charms. it is however useful for areas that you're afraid to melee in (ones with iron maiden) and as you said for killing things at a distance like dolls
the best success i had with melee sins in pve was using a combination of amplify dmg on a claw or lawbringer for decrep or atmas ammy (or decrep on merc) and tons of crushing blow (venom is also good esp in lower player games)
the crazy numbers you get on the charge up skills and kicks are just numbers.. they're never that impressive in high player games on actual mobs.
if a lightning sorc has 60k lightning baal goes down in 2 hits
if a charge up asn has 60k dragaon tail after charge up baal will take almost negligable dmg.
the elemental damage that the charge ups release can be awesome in single player games or low player games but it just doesn't scale well because they aren't synergized well and you don't have fire mastery/light mastery/cold mastery.
however i've had purely melee sins that could solo ubers and rush 8 player games using fast attack speeds, crushing blow, and amp or decrep
a trick i found for killing things in iron maiden areas is to use goblin toe boots (not upped) so that if you get imed you take low dmg and can otherwise kick away unafraid
so anyway i've never seen a sin using as much lifesteal as you are (and never experimented with it much since hc is my primary mode of play)..it does sound fun, but you might try donning some serious crushing blow gear to see how you like it.
and i'd use death sentry if you have the points for it even though you dislike traps (and i do empathize with that view)
edit: btw you can use +5-6 to death sentry claws on a weapon switch if you don't want to put the points there and aren't going to use a cta but if i were you i'd just skill it
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they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
i'm not sure what your sin is for (and what patch are you in 1.12?)
pve? keyruns and mfing rushing just everything?
and what gear are you using? just what you find? runewords? what restrictions what do you have access to?
I'm in the latest patch, yes. My Sin is primarily for key runs and assisting other players. That second thing may not seem too specific or important, but I like playing in a party with my friends, and fulfilling other roles besides just healing or killing. Such as freezing enemies with Phoenix Strike, exploding corpses during Nihl runs or other difficult combat situations, drawing enemies toward me so other party members can focus on primary targets (such as in Uber Trist, though I can't kill minions very fast, I'll stand between many of them and Mephisto while Meph's minions attack me, and the Smiter and Meph can have it all out), and other things.
My gear is basically Nat's full set wit Jade Talons, Dracs, Ravenfrost, String, and I think I'm using Etlich for its life leech. Any items that give me a large combined life leech is what I'm interested in.
I know Nat's gear is pretty crappy, but I've found for a MA Sin, that it's actually more effective than what say a Trapsin would equip.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
reading over some of the things you took out.. well i'm a hardcore player so i build my characters maybe more defensively.. but to me a shadow master or warrior is a no brainer; no it wont tank for you but it lets you control mob movement which is even more important for a melee sin than for a trapper.
I can certainly understand that sort of logic behind a HC Sin. Dying isn't as bad for me obviously and with what I do now, I can control a crowd fairly well. If I'm going to a crowded place such as Arcane Sanctuary, I'll even just use Dragon Flight since there are so many enemies spread out evenly there, I teleport pretty quickly across the map. It's no substitute for true teleportation, but I'm kind of proud of how I've made it work for me. If I'm in a jam, surrounded by enemies, I just Dragon Flight to one on the outside and then I I can quickly run away from the mob.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
also you say that pyshic hammer and cloak of shadows are wasted points..cloak of shadow is like invaluable for pve.. it completely negates ranged attacks and gets things off of you
My passive Block skill helps surprisingly well with ranged attacks. And my attack rating is so high that I'm either not getting hit much, I'm blocking the ranged attacks, or I'm quickly dispatching the ranged attackers and freezing them anyway.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
i've also had a sin that had insane charge up+kick dmg (60k and higher) and it does absolutely nothing to mobs; the calculations seem bugged on the character display screen because you don't do that much dmg. test it on players test it on baal test it on regular mobs. you won't one hit them and it's excruciatingly disappointing.
These are the kinds of things that I have no idea about. I've never really made a Kicksin so I've not noticed this bugginess, but it still doesn't surprise me at all.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
one point in burst of speed is fine; i wouldn't put more on 99% of builds but it depends on your weapons and gear (if you were unable to hit a breakpoint with weapons/gear you might need to put more but not otherwise)
Now that I'm a 90 something, I may spend some remaining points on Burst of Speed just so I can get meteors falling faster and ice bolts out quicker. I'm not gonna be able to do that much more damage if I keep spending on the synergies that Blades of Ice and Fists of Fire get me.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
about blade fury i wouldn't ever put more than one point to it; it's not great for dealing with physical immunes unless you have high venom or amplify dmg or a million elemental/psn dmg charms. it is however useful for areas that you're afraid to melee in (ones with iron maiden) and as you said for killing things at a distance like dolls
Yeah, and I didn't even spend on it this time around. I'm still undecided whether I think it's worth it or not in the end.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
the best success i had with melee sins in pve was using a combination of amplify dmg on a claw or lawbringer for decrep or atmas ammy (or decrep on merc) and tons of crushing blow (venom is also good esp in lower player games)
the crazy numbers you get on the charge up skills and kicks are just numbers.. they're never that impressive in high player games on actual mobs.
if a lightning sorc has 60k lightning baal goes down in 2 hits
if a charge up asn has 60k dragaon tail after charge up baal will take almost negligable dmg.
That really is crappy. I wonder why it's all buggy like that. It's simply unfair.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
so anyway i've never seen a sin using as much lifesteal as you are (and never experimented with it much since hc is my primary mode of play)..it does sound fun, but you might try donning some serious crushing blow gear to see how you like it.
I am willing to bet actually I could find some more effective gear than Nats. But another reason I use Nats is because it's pretty cheap, not too hard to get. Otherwise I'd love to try mixing up my gear more.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
and i'd use death sentry if you have the points for it even though you dislike traps (and i do empathize with that view)
Well, I do use Death Sentry. I just don't upgrade it.
my fav charge up sin used something like:
40ias amp fools claws with 3 to cot greatertalons mainhand bered
2 to sin 3 to cot greater talons offhand with res jewels (also had a set with facets: 40ias 2 sockets with light facets and just a plain white greater talon with 3 to cot 3 light facets)
enigma, griffons bered or guilliams ias (if not porting)
crafted sin fcr res ammy, raven frost, bk, goblin toes (upped and nonupped)
crafted ias cb gloves tgods martial arts life charms res/fhr charms
cta and spirit on switch (ported on that side)
and faded for dr
infinity merc
if i were you i'd try using something other than the nats..like lionheart or duress (or shaft for dr) guilliames helm goblin toe boots upped crafted ias cb gloves
those thigns are all relatively easy to get. and then get some greater or runic talons with ias and fools (and maybe amp dmg) on them
for skills if you really enjoy assisting players i still think that 1 point to shadow, mind blast, and cloak of shadows would be very useful both for you and your team.. but of course it depends on your playstyle most of all.
i'd still not put more points to bos i'd use an ias jewel or two and switch claws to hit faster hitting speeds.
switching from nats will really help with that since nats is a scissors suwayah and 0 speed.. it's almost impossible to hit 7 frames using it. try to use greater or runic talons on mainhand always
for death sentry the radius really does matter.. that's why you want more points to it. but i guess not if you aren't having any problems killing.
if you're happy with your build and gear then no need to change of course
edit: oh also with stats
the way i did stats on her was vita and used fools claw and raven frost and high skill lvl for ar (had ~4.2kish life self bo and 92-95% chance to hit all but baal and could use angelics if i needed higher ar)
doing that all your phys dmg is lower but i was trying to rely on elemental damage from skills and crushing blow from gear so i didn't care.. and once again the hc factor probably plays a big role in my choice there
if you stay with your lifesteal stuff i can see why you want high physical damage and so higher str/dex
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they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
hello saiyanoq thnx for the items you gave me. i read the thread and i agree that sins were least in favor of the developers' thought when they came out with ver1.++ patch while all other classes gets an unfair advantage boost which doesn't just tip the scale of a balanced game but topples it over completely. although i haven't been playing long (started since version 1.11 patch) i've build my cc sins just for taking out the uber if not in party then atleast solo. it is ridiculous that the sin tree are design around the class-specific weapon theme yet have such limited weapon choices for that theme. I've given up on the shadow clones and shadow masters on my elemental claw sins ever since never getting pass andariel in hell without watching from the sidelines while other classes easily take her out. Even maxing out key skills and have the best gears i'd still get run over by meager uniques - not end bosses. Maybe its just my build I maybe misunderstood the posted build guides. I don't know if they're going to have another patch but if they do I suggest maybe assigning extra strikes to claw attacks like how it works with dragon talon or druid fury attack. Or better yet allow the sins to duel wield one handed weapons and use them as if they were claws of course limit the one handed weapons to certain types like - daggers, maces, and swords but not axes or hammers. So they aren't just limited to cookie cutter runewords like chaos and/or fury(this word was made for barbs) or the unique claws which hardly add a significant change to the potential of a sin. how do i build my sin?
Maxed Claw Mastery for the AR boost nothing significant to base dmg though.
Maxed Dragon Talon for the Charge up bonus Secondary Attack
Maxed FoF Primary Attack
Maxed Venom for PIs
5-8 points Pheonix Strike for synergie to FoF
Rest of points to pre-req
str 150 so i can wear CoH on Superior Sacred Armor thats after getting items to boost str
dext 150 so to raise dmg and AR
vit Rest of points to raise HP
enr 0
Which boils down to-
Str 278 with items
Dex 341 with items
vit 386 with items
enr 242 mana points
I maybe calculating the dmg incorrectly but so far 12k dmg is the highest she's ever done and thats with poison from venom and fire dmg. thnx for all your help
No worries about the gear, Satoyama. Though really you should probably thank jittabug. He unloaded a ton of gear on me last night so I literally had like 5 Bartucs. LOL
My build is ultimately a failure because I care too much about diversity in skills than greater power in fewer skills. I did best with this build when working with a larger group and helping them in Uber runs and key runs while they still did most of the hard stuff.
I like your idea on charge up skills though. I think I probably should have skipped putting so many points in Phoenix Strike and just gone with maxing out the Fists of Fire or Blades of Ice. Then putting leftover points in Phoenix Strike for the synergies.
Still I can't resist any finishing move other than Dragon Claw because I love claws too much. Blood-doll was right about some of the other claws I should try out. Crushing blow is pretty amazing. I still have a free respec left with my character and I think once I get into the 90's I'll change up my gear a bit and do one last iteration with my charge up skills to be focused more on a single type of elemental damage.
Venom, as I think some pointed out doesn't seem to carry that well into Hell difficulty. And I still hate how short the buff lasts and that you can't give Venom to party members the way you can with Enchant. And still to this day I hate the structure of the Assassin skill tree but it's obviously never going to change. I may still give Venom a shot though and see if I can make it worth putting the points in.
I think to this day I've probably come to the conclusion that a Shadow Master is still good for crowd control. I only wish it used Death Sentry more so I wouldn't have to spend the points to get it. But Death Sentry is a good tactical skill and whether you get it from an item or skill it, it's worth having. And luckily you can't really upgrade the CE on it so just a single point in it is sufficient.
While Fade gives you damage resistance I still prefer Burst of Speed over it. When using charge up skills I really like being able to release that elemental damage as quickly and repeatedly as I can. Though granted you really don't want to put much into Burst because with your plus skill items you can get your attack speed sufficiently fast.
And maybe I've never understood the bonus behind Dragon Talon. Are you saying that adding points to it adds damage to say the Dragon Claw finishing move?
Let's team up sometime at any rate. My account is Siaynoq, so add me.
Hello again siaynoq sorry got your screen name misspelled earlier. Thanks jittabug for the items much appreciated if you are reading this thread. (But i digress) To my understanding so far sins are almost always gear dependent and i focused more of the build around the gears and what i have in mind of the purpose the build is for. I really just want create the highest dmg dealing and swiftess sin (As in AR of 9999999) so i can lay a hit on uber baal at least 3/4 of the time. Uber minions are immune to almost every element and have PI on top of that. So my only option is to have Chaos which is perfect for a claw-claw (cc) build. However I find that having the elemental charge up with dragon talon combo produces the swiftess charge release - in my opion - compared to dragon claw charge release. there seem to be an animation delay even with break point ias between the two claw attacks. and also baal's decrepify curse doesn't effect the attack speed of dragon talon which will be at 6 pfs constantly. u can test this out. i could be mistaken cuz i have a fairly weak laptop computer. and i too love dragon claw and this new build i am working on which finishes at level 86 will focus on FoF, CM and DC. As for venom only about 20% of the monsters are immune to poison. venom also does those dmg in .4 secs which helps with swift kills. I still need to figure a way to increase my min dmg without sacrificing to attack speed and resistance. I hardly ever use fade as its made for trappers and kickers in my opinion. BoS i don't ever put more than 1 point to that. As I said earlier I gave up on Shadow Clone and Shadow Master even in hard core. Mind blast takes care of the crowds much better and with the merc equipped with tomb cryptor poleaxe (i think idk) creates skellies to fight after kills. So I'm stuck between using 2xJade Talon or 2xChaos. There are just no other claws that can do magical dmg besides chaos. As for Dmg Reduc I find that verdungos and CoH compliments well. However with this new build I was eyeing:
Akraine Valor socketed with Um
Arachnid sash or Verdungos
2xJade Talons socketed with Sol for min dmg increase
or 2xChaos for the 200-400 magic dmg each
Shako socketed with Um
Shadow Dancer
raven frost for unfreeze
bulkatho's band for +1 skills and freezing affect
mara's or highlords
and if they exist then some charms to increase my min dmg and faster hit recovery (FHR) but i wouldn't mind getting a few tips and pointers. in fact i'd welcome the idea of improving my build to maximize her dmg and AR i dont know the break point on AR but I'd like to increase it to at least 90% versus Uber Baal. If you are wondering where my ias comes from it will com from BoS 1 point is good enough cuz with anni and torche charm and +1 skill items it'll already be covered. Hopefully we can do Uber runz together to test how we fair. Cuz I want to show all the other classes that a CC MA sin can run with the best of them. Thnx again
id go with coh or fort for armour if u arnt planning on using enigma or nats set (nats set is amazing if u can live with sacrificing mobility). valour has a high str req and also doesnt bring any good mods with it.
u shouldnt worry about magic damage or physical immunes since u do have cot or fof for them, if those skills are too weak, then run away from them :|
or u can get an infinity merc to drop resistances (other than psn)
if u want more venom dmg, id use trangs set gloves
dont know if u know this, but venom is currently bugged by adding psn dmg from other sources, like charms. it messes with the .4sec timer on venom.
it might be more worthwhile to max the charge-up skills and synergies to boost charge dmg instead of maxing the finisher
i dont know the best c/c combo for MA sins, but chaos is usually a wwsin wep. however, malice, fury, bartucs, and jade talon all seem to be great choices. if u want an increase in dmg and AR, there is a very expensive option in fools/cruel modded claws.
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id go with coh or fort for armour if u arnt planning on using enigma or nats set (nats set is amazing if u can live with sacrificing mobility). valour has a high str req and also doesnt bring any good mods with it.
u shouldnt worry about magic damage or physical immunes since u do have cot or fof for them, if those skills are too weak, then run away from them :|
or u can get an infinity merc to drop resistances (other than psn)
if u want more venom dmg, id use trangs set gloves
dont know if u know this, but venom is currently bugged by adding psn dmg from other sources, like charms. it messes with the .4sec timer on venom.
it might be more worthwhile to max the charge-up skills and synergies to boost charge dmg instead of maxing the finisher
i dont know the best c/c combo for MA sins, but chaos is usually a wwsin wep. however, malice, fury, bartucs, and jade talon all seem to be great choices. if u want an increase in dmg and AR, there is a very expensive option in fools/cruel modded claws.
Thnx Apples much appreciated its no wonder that those monsters still stands after taking a direct hit with venom at lvl 36 Thot my build was incorrect all this time. i'll be careful not to carry charms or items that do psn dmg then. Coh sounds really good and thats usually my target armor. I never really considered incorporating fools/cruels modded into the calculation but thats very interesting indeed. i'll create a new sin that will use those suggested items for weapons. Thank you.
as for maxing out finishers i think that has to be necessary because it also contributes to the final tally for AR. cuz with max finisher + max CM + max FoF + AR items it'll only bring me up to 80-83% versus Normal Hell Baal. So that would leave me with about 54-60% versus Uber Baal its close but still shy about 15-20% to hit 3/4 of the time. And for the armor I can never be that wealthy as to afford Enigma right off the bat but i'll do my best to shoot for that. At the mean-time Valor can become a close and cheaper substitute for fort or Enigma or Coh. Infinity is very appealing too only its also expensive Ber Ist Ber Mal - i wouldn't know how to begin to trade for them as the diablo economy - to be honest - isn't my forte. if i get lucky again to get the organs i'd like to invite u to help me take out the ubers. U'll find that without infinity to lower those immunes' resist we cant get anywhere near Uber Baal. His blasted teleporting and tentacles. i think uber baal have conviction aura so my merc might lose his life in a few hits leaving infinity useless after he's taken down. unless i am using DS or WoF to support him but I'm a CC MA that kind of complicates things a little. I just might be kidding myself and trying to do the impossible. I did however took out Uber Baal after 4 hours of excruciating deaths so impossible isn't an option anymore. My account is obiwan_sinobi playing on West battle.net. Thnx again Apple for ur suggestions I'll put it to good use.
The bug apples is referring to affects the duration and damage of your poison charms only. Still sucks, but at least it's not messing with Venom itself. Basically if you have a charm that is 90 poison damage for over 4 seconds, the Venom skill brings that duration to sync with its .4 seconds but apparently would also lower the poison damage to 9. We talk about some of that stuff in this thread here which I meant to refer you to earlier as well.
Hello thnx siaynoq for the link to other thread that was totally awesome of u. And thnx also to Blood-Doll, Sixen and Zhar. Its uber sweet that Blood-Doll has taken on the Ubers with an Assassin. *kneels, bow then chants* All hail to Blood-Doll God of all Assassins.
The build suggestions on both threads have been duly noted and will be put to good use. To my understanding correct me if i'm wrong MA sins are in other words vampires life leeching 80% of all her attacks. So with out any form of LL-ing any other builds would become incomplete and prolly utterly useless. i know that amp dmg can negate PI so that leaves venom as an optional skill. In conclusion i think i have a clear direction of where i can go with this. I'll post my new cc ma sin findings and address the results in my next post.
*grovels at Blood_Doll's feet* thank you thank you thank you thank you o Assassin God...hehehe Uber Baal here I come.
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But in light of some recent and productive conversation between some buddies of mine, mostly with HnK, I decided that I've learned enough about my build to start a new Sin with some revisions to my previous build. The emphasis on this new build is slight more on the Martial Arts in the Shadow's stead.
The problem I've noticed with the Assassin is the way her skill tree is designed. Maybe it's this way with a few other classes, I don't know. But with the Sin, you have to spend significant amounts of skill points just to develop the skill tree with totally unrelated skills just to get to the ones you want.
For example, the Phoenix Strike (my primary charge up skill). It would be nice if I could just begin with the Fists of Fire, then to Claws of Thunder, then Blades of Ice, and lastly, Phoenix Strike. Those three prerequisites makes sense since they all get synergies from one another. But unfortunately to work your way up to Phoenix Strike, you also have to spend a skill point on both Tiger Strike and Cobra Strike. Why is this unfair? A Necromancers Bone Spirit requires only Teeth and Bone Spear and they all receive synergies from each other. Why should you have to spend on a prerequisite for skills that don't benefit the ones you're ultimately shooting for?
Some may claim this is part of the effort to balance the classes. C'bon. The Martial Arts Sin could easily get more bonuses and still never be nearly as powerful as other class builds I've seen. In fact, overall, this particular build is relatively one of the weakest. I say relatively cause on its own, it can survive in Hell just fine. But it can never kill monsters or duel the way some of the other classes are (it does however offer just a bit more diversity than other builds without sacrificing too much damage).
So now because I'm trying so hard to see the true potential in the Phoenix Strike synergies combined with the Dragon Claw finish, tipped with Venom, I'm making a few cuts in some other places.
The first one is I'm totally scrapping the Shadow Warrior and Master. At first I thought this skill was great for doing Key runs because the Shadow Master uses Mind Blast quite frequently as well as Death Sentry. The Master also has a decent enough amount of life that if you're are in a tight spot, it can take a lot of the monsters damage for you to get away safely. I'm scrapping it though because it simply requires too many prerequisites for what you get out of it. Most bullshit of all is that if you want it you have to spend a point on Psychic Hammer and Cloak of Shadows: two completely useless spells that have no bearing on the Shadow Master whatsoever. I can't figure out why they made these two skill a prerequisite for the Shadow Master. But I've decided it makes having the Shadow Master not worth the payoff. So my solution is merely to have a powerful Act 2 merc with Insight among other rune words if possible. Since my Sin itself doesn't require runewords, I can concentrate my rune collecting efforts on getting the particular runewords just for my merc.
That gives me 3 more skill points to put into the Phoenix synergies and maybe a little more into Venom (Weapon Block is still a good skill but you only need to spend one point on it). The remaining Shadow skill is the Burst of Speed. I think this time around I may spend only a single point on that and see how I manage. With the right equipment, I can easily get that up to 9-12. And once you're up that high with Burst of Speed, anything higher and you really can't tell the difference anyway. Before I was spending up to 4 points on this skill cause it's essential for a Martial Arts sin to be able to attack very rapidly. But with the items giving +1 to this skill, as well as when I get my Jade Talon, I should be just fine there.
Now for Traps. I still feel inclined to build Traps just enough for Death Sentry. Especially since I won't even have a Shadow Master to use it. Having Corpse Explosion in a party always comes in handy no matter what. And to build the skill tree to get to Death Sentry is fairly reasonable compared to the other level 30 skills for the Assassin. The only other skill I'm undecided on is Blade Fury. It really is a good skill since it fires quickly and does 3/4 of the damage of your equipped weapon and most importantly even benefits from the benefits of Claw Mastery. Blade Fury is really good for dealing with Physical Immunes. Or even I'm fighting something that I'd rather not get close to like a Stygian Doll - with a high attack rating I can take out a Hell Stygian Doll easily before it gets close to me using Blade Fury.
The last thing regarding stat points is that I still will put most skill points into Dex. For this type of build, your Dex is basically your Vit. With a high life (and mana) leech combined with a high attack rating, you almost never need to use potions by the time you get to Hell (with the exception of figting skeletons). Using Dragon Claw, you can bring your life from nearly empty to completely full with three rapid uses of this skill as long as you're using all the life leech you can get. Dueling can be fun too because certain classes that melee find it difficult to hit you.
Anyway, that's the revised build that I'll be going with this time. I look forward to getting this Sin up really high so I can get back to anyone who is interested what my final damage stats are and all that. Thanks for reading.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
pve? keyruns.. and mfing? rushing? just everything?
and what gear are you using? just what you find? runewords? what restrictions what do you have access to?
reading over some of the things you took out.. well i'm a hardcore player so i build my characters maybe more defensively.. but to me a shadow master or warrior is a no brainer; no it wont tank for you that much but it lets you control mob movement which is even more important for a melee sin than for a trapper.
(mind blast at one point is also useful for the same reason: controlling mob behavior)
also you say that pyshic hammer and cloak of shadows are wasted points..cloak of shadow is like invaluable for pve.. it completely negates ranged attacks and gets things off of you
so anyway i disagree with you on those two points.
when you talk about melee sins getting a short end of the stick in pve.. yes i agree, but for different reasons.
i've also had a sin that had insane charge up+kick dmg (60k and higher) and it does absolutely nothing to mobs; the calculations seem bugged on the character display screen because you don't do that much dmg. test it on players test it on baal test it on regular mobs. you won't one hit them and it's excruciatingly disappointing.
one point in burst of speed is fine; i wouldn't put more on 99% of builds but it depends on your weapons and gear (if you were unable to hit a breakpoint with weapons/gear you might need to put more but not otherwise)
about blade fury i wouldn't ever put more than one point to it; it's not great for dealing with physical immunes in high player games unless you have high venom or amplify dmg or a million elemental/psn dmg charms. it is however useful for areas that you're afraid to melee in (ones with iron maiden) and as you said for killing things at a distance like dolls
the best success i had with melee sins in pve was using a combination of amplify dmg on a claw or lawbringer for decrep or atmas ammy (or decrep on merc) and tons of crushing blow (venom is also good esp in lower player games)
the crazy numbers you get on the charge up skills and kicks are just numbers.. they're never that impressive in high player games on actual mobs.
if a lightning sorc has 60k lightning baal goes down in 2 hits
if a charge up asn has 60k dragaon tail after charge up baal will take almost negligable dmg.
the elemental damage that the charge ups release can be awesome in single player games or low player games but it just doesn't scale well because they aren't synergized well and you don't have fire mastery/light mastery/cold mastery.
however i've had purely melee sins that could solo ubers and rush 8 player games using fast attack speeds, crushing blow, and amp or decrep
a trick i found for killing things in iron maiden areas is to use goblin toe boots (not upped) so that if you get imed you take low dmg and can otherwise kick away unafraid
so anyway i've never seen a sin using as much lifesteal as you are (and never experimented with it much since hc is my primary mode of play)..it does sound fun, but you might try donning some serious crushing blow gear to see how you like it.
and i'd use death sentry if you have the points for it even though you dislike traps (and i do empathize with that view)
edit: btw you can use +5-6 to death sentry claws on a weapon switch if you don't want to put the points there and aren't going to use a cta but if i were you i'd just skill it
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
My gear is basically Nat's full set wit Jade Talons, Dracs, Ravenfrost, String, and I think I'm using Etlich for its life leech. Any items that give me a large combined life leech is what I'm interested in.
I know Nat's gear is pretty crappy, but I've found for a MA Sin, that it's actually more effective than what say a Trapsin would equip.
I can certainly understand that sort of logic behind a HC Sin. Dying isn't as bad for me obviously and with what I do now, I can control a crowd fairly well. If I'm going to a crowded place such as Arcane Sanctuary, I'll even just use Dragon Flight since there are so many enemies spread out evenly there, I teleport pretty quickly across the map. It's no substitute for true teleportation, but I'm kind of proud of how I've made it work for me. If I'm in a jam, surrounded by enemies, I just Dragon Flight to one on the outside and then I I can quickly run away from the mob.
My passive Block skill helps surprisingly well with ranged attacks. And my attack rating is so high that I'm either not getting hit much, I'm blocking the ranged attacks, or I'm quickly dispatching the ranged attackers and freezing them anyway.
These are the kinds of things that I have no idea about. I've never really made a Kicksin so I've not noticed this bugginess, but it still doesn't surprise me at all.
Now that I'm a 90 something, I may spend some remaining points on Burst of Speed just so I can get meteors falling faster and ice bolts out quicker. I'm not gonna be able to do that much more damage if I keep spending on the synergies that Blades of Ice and Fists of Fire get me.
Yeah, and I didn't even spend on it this time around. I'm still undecided whether I think it's worth it or not in the end.
That really is crappy. I wonder why it's all buggy like that. It's simply unfair.
I am willing to bet actually I could find some more effective gear than Nats. But another reason I use Nats is because it's pretty cheap, not too hard to get. Otherwise I'd love to try mixing up my gear more.
Well, I do use Death Sentry. I just don't upgrade it.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
40ias amp fools claws with 3 to cot greatertalons mainhand bered
2 to sin 3 to cot greater talons offhand with res jewels (also had a set with facets: 40ias 2 sockets with light facets and just a plain white greater talon with 3 to cot 3 light facets)
enigma, griffons bered or guilliams ias (if not porting)
crafted sin fcr res ammy, raven frost, bk, goblin toes (upped and nonupped)
crafted ias cb gloves tgods martial arts life charms res/fhr charms
cta and spirit on switch (ported on that side)
and faded for dr
infinity merc
if i were you i'd try using something other than the nats..like lionheart or duress (or shaft for dr) guilliames helm goblin toe boots upped crafted ias cb gloves
those thigns are all relatively easy to get. and then get some greater or runic talons with ias and fools (and maybe amp dmg) on them
for skills if you really enjoy assisting players i still think that 1 point to shadow, mind blast, and cloak of shadows would be very useful both for you and your team.. but of course it depends on your playstyle most of all.
i'd still not put more points to bos i'd use an ias jewel or two and switch claws to hit faster hitting speeds.
switching from nats will really help with that since nats is a scissors suwayah and 0 speed.. it's almost impossible to hit 7 frames using it. try to use greater or runic talons on mainhand always
for death sentry the radius really does matter.. that's why you want more points to it. but i guess not if you aren't having any problems killing.
if you're happy with your build and gear then no need to change of course
edit: oh also with stats
the way i did stats on her was vita and used fools claw and raven frost and high skill lvl for ar (had ~4.2kish life self bo and 92-95% chance to hit all but baal and could use angelics if i needed higher ar)
doing that all your phys dmg is lower but i was trying to rely on elemental damage from skills and crushing blow from gear so i didn't care.. and once again the hc factor probably plays a big role in my choice there
if you stay with your lifesteal stuff i can see why you want high physical damage and so higher str/dex
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
Maxed Claw Mastery for the AR boost nothing significant to base dmg though.
Maxed Dragon Talon for the Charge up bonus Secondary Attack
Maxed FoF Primary Attack
Maxed Venom for PIs
5-8 points Pheonix Strike for synergie to FoF
Rest of points to pre-req
str 150 so i can wear CoH on Superior Sacred Armor thats after getting items to boost str
dext 150 so to raise dmg and AR
vit Rest of points to raise HP
enr 0
Which boils down to-
Str 278 with items
Dex 341 with items
vit 386 with items
enr 242 mana points
I maybe calculating the dmg incorrectly but so far 12k dmg is the highest she's ever done and thats with poison from venom and fire dmg. thnx for all your help
My build is ultimately a failure because I care too much about diversity in skills than greater power in fewer skills. I did best with this build when working with a larger group and helping them in Uber runs and key runs while they still did most of the hard stuff.
I like your idea on charge up skills though. I think I probably should have skipped putting so many points in Phoenix Strike and just gone with maxing out the Fists of Fire or Blades of Ice. Then putting leftover points in Phoenix Strike for the synergies.
Still I can't resist any finishing move other than Dragon Claw because I love claws too much. Blood-doll was right about some of the other claws I should try out. Crushing blow is pretty amazing. I still have a free respec left with my character and I think once I get into the 90's I'll change up my gear a bit and do one last iteration with my charge up skills to be focused more on a single type of elemental damage.
Venom, as I think some pointed out doesn't seem to carry that well into Hell difficulty. And I still hate how short the buff lasts and that you can't give Venom to party members the way you can with Enchant. And still to this day I hate the structure of the Assassin skill tree but it's obviously never going to change. I may still give Venom a shot though and see if I can make it worth putting the points in.
I think to this day I've probably come to the conclusion that a Shadow Master is still good for crowd control. I only wish it used Death Sentry more so I wouldn't have to spend the points to get it. But Death Sentry is a good tactical skill and whether you get it from an item or skill it, it's worth having. And luckily you can't really upgrade the CE on it so just a single point in it is sufficient.
While Fade gives you damage resistance I still prefer Burst of Speed over it. When using charge up skills I really like being able to release that elemental damage as quickly and repeatedly as I can. Though granted you really don't want to put much into Burst because with your plus skill items you can get your attack speed sufficiently fast.
And maybe I've never understood the bonus behind Dragon Talon. Are you saying that adding points to it adds damage to say the Dragon Claw finishing move?
Let's team up sometime at any rate. My account is Siaynoq, so add me.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Akraine Valor socketed with Um
Arachnid sash or Verdungos
2xJade Talons socketed with Sol for min dmg increase
or 2xChaos for the 200-400 magic dmg each
Shako socketed with Um
Shadow Dancer
raven frost for unfreeze
bulkatho's band for +1 skills and freezing affect
mara's or highlords
and if they exist then some charms to increase my min dmg and faster hit recovery (FHR) but i wouldn't mind getting a few tips and pointers. in fact i'd welcome the idea of improving my build to maximize her dmg and AR i dont know the break point on AR but I'd like to increase it to at least 90% versus Uber Baal. If you are wondering where my ias comes from it will com from BoS 1 point is good enough cuz with anni and torche charm and +1 skill items it'll already be covered. Hopefully we can do Uber runz together to test how we fair. Cuz I want to show all the other classes that a CC MA sin can run with the best of them. Thnx again
u shouldnt worry about magic damage or physical immunes since u do have cot or fof for them, if those skills are too weak, then run away from them :|
or u can get an infinity merc to drop resistances (other than psn)
if u want more venom dmg, id use trangs set gloves
dont know if u know this, but venom is currently bugged by adding psn dmg from other sources, like charms. it messes with the .4sec timer on venom.
it might be more worthwhile to max the charge-up skills and synergies to boost charge dmg instead of maxing the finisher
i dont know the best c/c combo for MA sins, but chaos is usually a wwsin wep. however, malice, fury, bartucs, and jade talon all seem to be great choices. if u want an increase in dmg and AR, there is a very expensive option in fools/cruel modded claws.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Thnx Apples much appreciated its no wonder that those monsters still stands after taking a direct hit with venom at lvl 36 Thot my build was incorrect all this time. i'll be careful not to carry charms or items that do psn dmg then. Coh sounds really good and thats usually my target armor. I never really considered incorporating fools/cruels modded into the calculation but thats very interesting indeed. i'll create a new sin that will use those suggested items for weapons. Thank you.
as for maxing out finishers i think that has to be necessary because it also contributes to the final tally for AR. cuz with max finisher + max CM + max FoF + AR items it'll only bring me up to 80-83% versus Normal Hell Baal. So that would leave me with about 54-60% versus Uber Baal its close but still shy about 15-20% to hit 3/4 of the time. And for the armor I can never be that wealthy as to afford Enigma right off the bat but i'll do my best to shoot for that. At the mean-time Valor can become a close and cheaper substitute for fort or Enigma or Coh. Infinity is very appealing too only its also expensive Ber Ist Ber Mal - i wouldn't know how to begin to trade for them as the diablo economy - to be honest - isn't my forte. if i get lucky again to get the organs i'd like to invite u to help me take out the ubers. U'll find that without infinity to lower those immunes' resist we cant get anywhere near Uber Baal. His blasted teleporting and tentacles. i think uber baal have conviction aura so my merc might lose his life in a few hits leaving infinity useless after he's taken down. unless i am using DS or WoF to support him but I'm a CC MA that kind of complicates things a little. I just might be kidding myself and trying to do the impossible. I did however took out Uber Baal after 4 hours of excruciating deaths so impossible isn't an option anymore. My account is obiwan_sinobi playing on West battle.net. Thnx again Apple for ur suggestions I'll put it to good use.
Also, jittabug says you're welcome for the gear.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
The build suggestions on both threads have been duly noted and will be put to good use. To my understanding correct me if i'm wrong MA sins are in other words vampires life leeching 80% of all her attacks. So with out any form of LL-ing any other builds would become incomplete and prolly utterly useless. i know that amp dmg can negate PI so that leaves venom as an optional skill. In conclusion i think i have a clear direction of where i can go with this. I'll post my new cc ma sin findings and address the results in my next post.
*grovels at Blood_Doll's feet* thank you thank you thank you thank you o Assassin God...hehehe Uber Baal here I come.