Hey guys, old lurker new poster here.
Recently I've been looking at new legendaries, rings specifically, and noticed Skulls Grasp. For those of you unfamiliar with the item it's a ring which, along the usual stats found on rings, can spawn a skill bonus. What interests me however is whether this bonus will stack with other items providing the same bonus, and if it does indeed stack is there a cap to it?
For example: I've got a quiver with +10% to Elemental Arrow damage. Let's say I buy 2 of those rings, which would give me and additional bonus of +20% to Elemental Arrows damage, 10% coming from each ring. Would that leave me with 30% boost to EA?

Edit: I realise that I can't get more then 1 legendary. Let's assume I have a 14% to EA quiver, and buy a 10% to EA ring instead. Will those stack and is there a cap?

I don't have an answer to you question, but is it such a wise idea? Considering you could just get a trinity (IAS/CC/CD) ring (or even binary) which will buff all your attacks by a similar damage amount, not just elemental arrow, the bonuses are more of an after thought than something most people actively seek out.
Also, SoJ for the other hand, you could stack (if it does indeed stack) up to 36% (10% skull grasp, 12% SoJ, 14% quiver).

i think you can stack two skill-related item (eg ring and helm). at least i plan to do it, cause it will reduce casting cost of one of my spells so much that i'll be spamming it constatny

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I assume it stacks, additively as you said. So if you get +10% from one item and +20% from another, you should have +30% total. I don't see any reason it wouldn't stack since everything else does.

I've got another question. How do other +x% damage bonuses come in to play, additive or multiplicative?

For example Steady Aim talent (20%), Elemental Arrow gear bonus (SoJ+Quiver=25%) and Bonus Damage Against Elites gear bonus (SoJ=30%)?

My limited experiments made me believe that these bonuses add up additive and not multiplicative, so my total damage multiplier against elites is 1.75 instead of 1.95.

My test suggested that steady aim (not sure about other direct multipliers like elite bonus, archery with bows, cull the weak etc.) works multiplicatively with normal damage and weapon damage but it does not enhance Skill bonus at all.

My setup was: 13 damage (2-3 damage + 11 minimum damage, you always get the same damage), 1613 dex. Got the following damage numbers:
Without SA:
Evasive Fire + 19%: 345
EF + 10%: 318
EF: 289
Normal shot: 223
With SA:
Evasive Fire + 19%: 402
EF + 10%: 376
EF: 347
Normal shot: 267

Numbers work perfectly if you calculate (Weapon Damage * Skill bonus * Steady Aim bonus) + (Weapon Damage * Dex * Skill bonus * Gear skill bonus)
At 19% this would be (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 1.2) + (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 0.19) = 347,3964 + 55.00443 = 402.40083

Doing this all test setups would show the calculated damage value. Might give it a go with Damage against Elites later.

If I'm reading that right, that makes the skill bonus additive, right? (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 1.2) + (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 0.19) = 13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * (1.2+0.19) so the steady aim bonus and gear skill bonus are adding. I don't know much about DHs so if I misunderstood something I apologize. If it were multiplicative it would be 13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 1.2*1.19 = 413.4, which is a clear difference from your results.

My going theory has been that all bonus damage adds up between skills and gear, including bonus damage to elites, but I haven't tested it yet. This seems like a good method.

Ok, did the other tests with a SoJ (5% poison damage and 22% damage against Elites). Instead of my 1 hand initiate bow I took a bow with 2 minimum damage for Archery. As minimum damage = maximum damage the 5% poison damage should result in a straight 1.05% bonus (IIRC it adds added elemental damage to minimum and maximum damage; as minimum damage = maximum damage we should be able to use the damage bonus directly as a multiplier).

Basically it looks like that bonus skill damage is not enhanced by general multipliers (adds x% to you damage). In case of DHs these are Steady Aim and Bow Archery. All the other tested multipliers (Cull the Weak, Damage against Elites, bonus Damage, Critical Damage, Main Stat) are enhanced by bonus skill damage. Furthermore Steady Aim and Bow Archery work additively not multiplicatively between themselves.

So for DHs you would have:
Damage (+ damage from equip) * Main Stat Bonus * Skill Damage Bonus * Elemental % Bonus * Damage vs Monstertype Bonus * Cull of the Weak * Critical Damage = "Damage"

This is then enhanced by Gear Skill Damage Bonus and Steady Aim/Archery:
"Damage" + ("Damage" * Gear Skill Damage Bonus") + ("Damage" * (Steady Aim + Archery))

At least DHs (who only got 2 generic multipliers, 1 when using a crossbow) benefit greatly from gear skill boni. Only multiplierd of 1.2 or 1.35 seem not to be affected by them.

The affix that says "Adds x% poison damage" or whatever element instead of poison doesn't quite act the way you said. For whatever reason it adds 2*x of your total min physical damage to your weapon damage. Since your min and max are supposed to be the same, I'm not really sure how it would work. Do you get a dps increase when equipping it?

Also, i'm having trouble understanding your results. Are you saying bonus damage to elites is a separate factor from other sources of bonus damage? For that matter are you saying all forms of bonus damage are multiplicative and not additive? I.e., bonus damage to slowed mobs, bonus damage to elites, bonus damage from cold spells, etc.?

Again, I know next to nothing about DHs, but after taking a quick look at the passives list, SA gives 20% increase, CotW gives 15%, Archery (A) gives 15% (wow you DHs have a lot of dps passives compared to us wizards). In your results SA seems to only give around 18% while A gives about 14%, which is a little odd.

Also, I'm concluding that SA and A are additive but multiplicative with respect to other multipliers like CotW and elite damage. Does this sound right? It makes sense to me that SA and A are additive and my wizard buffs are the same that just "increases damage by x%".

Finally, how did you carry out the examination? Use a bow with 2-3 damage, have a piece of jewelery with +11 min damage, and just attack a zombie in Act 1 normal or something? Were all of your damage hits the same or was there some small variety, and did you ignore any crits? I'm not doubting the method, just curious so I can try it with some wizard skills sometime.

I tried something similar when I wanted to test the old Magic Weapon bug several patches ago. I was in Inferno (probably not a good idea because of their higher armor stats vs normal) and used like a 11-22 damage weapon with +11 min damage. My hits weren't the same though, probably because of the higher damage resistance of the mobs at higher difficulty level.

Thanks a lot for the information and methodology. I'm sure I'll find a time in the future I want to test something and it's good to know you can end up with very constant damage.

x% to elemental damage adds 2 * mimimum damage instead 1 * minimum damage + 1 * maximum damage. If you look at the first test (with 10% bonus) you get 318 damage, second test with SoJ (same stats otherwise) results in 334 damage. This is exactly the 1.05% damage increase you would expect if 5% minimum damage would be added to your minimum damage and 5% minimum damage would be added to your maximum damage (instead of 10% to your minimum damage):

If you would calculate a 10% damage increase (2 * minimum damage added to minimum damage) you would get 350.29137 which is way above the observed value. As the Value is the only variable that changed and it works perfectly in any test this way I would assume damage vs. elite works the way I said (though testing maximum damage is a bit more time consuming).

So it sounds like if your min and max damage values are the same, or likely just close enough, it first adds 5% to your min, and then if your min >= max, it adds 5% to your max, otherwise it adds another 5% to your min. At least I'm trying to understand it from a coding/implementation point of view, mostly for curiousity sake since for all practical purposes it will always just add 10% to your min when using high level weapons since they have a significant damage range. I know if your min is much less than your max, say your damage range is 100-200, it just adds 10% to your min, making the new range 110-200. When your max and min are the same, it's obviously not adding 10% just to your min because then your min would be the max, and max would be the min, and you'd probably see some variation of damage values.

What's also interesting is that when you add lots of excess minimum damage, your new min value is also your new max value so you kind of double dip with the excess damage. However, the 5% bonus damage is treated differently and instead of having the full value added to the min and doubling up to make the max and min equal, it seems to just add to both min and max.

Well I have never really looked into the 2 * minimum damage thing (how was it tested?). It might even have something to do with the bugged calculation of physical elemental damage on weapons (or it's just a coding error: instead of maximum damage variables a coder used minimum damage variables, depending on how it was coded this could be just 1 variable that would be pretty easy to be misplaced by a very similar mindam variable).

Assuming that x% to elemental damage adds 2 * minimum damage (instead of minimum and maximum damage) this test implies that the added damage is not added twice on minimum damage (otherwise the observed value should be 10% instead of 5%).

I would assume that the minimum damage bonus is added to minimum and maximum damage then:

So at 100-200 physical damage, 10% poison damage would be:
110 - 210 damage (100 + (100 * 0.1) - 200 + (100 * 0.1)

If mindam = maxdam you would just get:
110 - 110 (instead of 120 - 120 if the bonus is applied twice to minimum damage).

I have no idea how they figured out that it is 2x*min damage added, but it is easy to confirm in game, which I have done so I could implement it in my dps spreadsheet. I suspect it's a coding error and is meant to be 2x average damage, which would explain why it's multiplied by 2. It could even be a display bug in the DPS/Damage Number calculation but used correctly when actually dealing damage, though that seems like it would be quite difficult to test. There was a recent blue post about the affix and I think the person writing the post didn't actually realize it's min damage used and not average, which I found kind of funny. Then again, in its current state, it really doesn't make any sense as to why it works the way it does.

Not depending on the DPS display it could actually be very time consuming to test. I did a test today and I just can't make anything out of the results:

1587 Dex, 74% Crit Damage, Bow with 2-9 damage. I just shot at monsters in normal (those respawning act 1 flythingies in the woods) at looked at the maximum damage.

If the 5% damage bonus to maximum damage would be applied based on minimum damage the highest damage observed should be:
(9 * 16.87) + (2 * 16.87 * 0,05) = 153.517 or 154
Crit hits should be 153.517 * 1.74 = 267.11958 or 267

If the 5% damage bonus is applied based on maximum damage it should be:
9 * 16.87 * 1.05 = 159.4215 or 159
Crit hits should be 159.4215 * 1.74 = 277.39341 or 277

Now the weird thing is that my highest observed damage was 162 for normal hits and 283 for crit hits. Clearly above the maximum damage you would expect if minimum damage is added to maximum damage but even slightly above the expected maximum damage if the bonus would work as expected (raising minimum and maximum damage by 5%).

Testing damage with more potent weapons might be really time consuming if the game does calculate damage using 2 digits (2.00 to 3.00 would be 100 different possible values; 100.00 to 200.00 would be 10000 possible values).

I just did another test with the initiate crossbow and this test did imply that maximum damage is enhance by a percentage of minimum damage (1590 dex thanks to Paragon now; 52 damage and 91 crit damage observed; if maximum damage would have been enhanced it should have been 53 and 92 max damage value; at least this would suggest that maximum damage is enhanced :))

Those are some interesting results. Have you tried any tests without the 5% damage ring, to get a baseline? If you see hits above your expected max while not using the ring it would explain why you see hits with the ring.

Also, did you look at any of the min damage hits? Since the in game DPS value applies the 5% damage only to your min damage, I would expect that looking at the min damage would yield some good information.

If I can find some time, I'll try testing it a little myself on my wiz since I have a pair of Zunimassa boots that have the bonus damage affix.

Nevermind, someone on another thread posted that on the ptr the damage calculation is fixed to add the percent to both min and max damage, instead of 2x min.

I've seen another thread about adding to min/max as well, but so far I haven't seen anything lining out test setups and results. I usually take this with a grain of salt as anyone could just post something on the interwebs.

So far I only looked for maximum damage and did not test the setup without a SoJ. Looking for minimum damage as well is a bit tricky as long as you aren't looking for damage below a certain treshold (it's quite easy to look out for number above or below a certain treshold, but when it comes to minimum without that treshold it gets more complicated without recording the numbers which is more time consuming especially when you aim at getting at least 1k shots).

The person who posted about the changes that I saw is the same one who informed me of the current mechanics, so I'm pretty inclined to believe it. Honestly I wouldn't be suprised if it was always that way and was just a tooltip error, but I don't think we'll know for sure outside of testing now, and it's not worth it to me to check since a change is coming, whenever the patch gets released.

Recently I've been looking at new legendaries, rings specifically, and noticed Skulls Grasp. For those of you unfamiliar with the item it's a ring which, along the usual stats found on rings, can spawn a skill bonus. What interests me however is whether this bonus will stack with other items providing the same bonus, and if it does indeed stack is there a cap to it?

For example: I've got a quiver with +10% to Elemental Arrow damage. Let's say I buy 2 of those rings, which would give me and additional bonus of +20% to Elemental Arrows damage, 10% coming from each ring. Would that leave me with 30% boost to EA?

Edit: I realise that I can't get more then 1 legendary. Let's assume I have a 14% to EA quiver, and buy a 10% to EA ring instead. Will those stack and is there a cap?Also, SoJ for the other hand, you could stack (if it does indeed stack) up to 36% (10% skull grasp, 12% SoJ, 14% quiver).

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Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

For example Steady Aim talent (20%), Elemental Arrow gear bonus (SoJ+Quiver=25%) and Bonus Damage Against Elites gear bonus (SoJ=30%)?

My limited experiments made me believe that these bonuses add up additive and not multiplicative, so my total damage multiplier against elites is 1.75 instead of 1.95.

If I'm reading that right, that makes the skill bonus additive, right? (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 1.2) + (13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 0.19) = 13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * (1.2+0.19) so the steady aim bonus and gear skill bonus are adding. I don't know much about DHs so if I misunderstood something I apologize. If it were multiplicative it would be 13 * 17.13 * 1.3 * 1.2*1.19 = 413.4, which is a clear difference from your results.

My going theory has been that all bonus damage adds up between skills and gear, including bonus damage to elites, but I haven't tested it yet. This seems like a good method.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

The affix that says "Adds x% poison damage" or whatever element instead of poison doesn't quite act the way you said. For whatever reason it adds 2*x of your total min physical damage to your weapon damage. Since your min and max are supposed to be the same, I'm not really sure how it would work. Do you get a dps increase when equipping it?

Also, i'm having trouble understanding your results. Are you saying bonus damage to elites is a separate factor from other sources of bonus damage? For that matter are you saying all forms of bonus damage are multiplicative and not additive? I.e., bonus damage to slowed mobs, bonus damage to elites, bonus damage from cold spells, etc.?

Again, I know next to nothing about DHs, but after taking a quick look at the passives list, SA gives 20% increase, CotW gives 15%, Archery (A) gives 15% (wow you DHs have a lot of dps passives compared to us wizards). In your results SA seems to only give around 18% while A gives about 14%, which is a little odd.

Also, I'm concluding that SA and A are additive but multiplicative with respect to other multipliers like CotW and elite damage. Does this sound right? It makes sense to me that SA and A are additive and my wizard buffs are the same that just "increases damage by x%".

Finally, how did you carry out the examination? Use a bow with 2-3 damage, have a piece of jewelery with +11 min damage, and just attack a zombie in Act 1 normal or something? Were all of your damage hits the same or was there some small variety, and did you ignore any crits? I'm not doubting the method, just curious so I can try it with some wizard skills sometime.

I tried something similar when I wanted to test the old Magic Weapon bug several patches ago. I was in Inferno (probably not a good idea because of their higher armor stats vs normal) and used like a 11-22 damage weapon with +11 min damage. My hits weren't the same though, probably because of the higher damage resistance of the mobs at higher difficulty level.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

One small comment:

So it sounds like if your min and max damage values are the same, or likely just close enough, it first adds 5% to your min, and then if your min >= max, it adds 5% to your max, otherwise it adds another 5% to your min. At least I'm trying to understand it from a coding/implementation point of view, mostly for curiousity sake since for all practical purposes it will always just add 10% to your min when using high level weapons since they have a significant damage range. I know if your min is much less than your max, say your damage range is 100-200, it just adds 10% to your min, making the new range 110-200. When your max and min are the same, it's obviously not adding 10% just to your min because then your min would be the max, and max would be the min, and you'd probably see some variation of damage values.

What's also interesting is that when you add lots of excess minimum damage, your new min value is also your new max value so you kind of double dip with the excess damage. However, the 5% bonus damage is treated differently and instead of having the full value added to the min and doubling up to make the max and min equal, it seems to just add to both min and max.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

I have no idea how they figured out that it is 2x*min damage added, but it is easy to confirm in game, which I have done so I could implement it in my dps spreadsheet. I suspect it's a coding error and is meant to be 2x average damage, which would explain why it's multiplied by 2. It could even be a display bug in the DPS/Damage Number calculation but used correctly when actually dealing damage, though that seems like it would be quite difficult to test. There was a recent blue post about the affix and I think the person writing the post didn't actually realize it's min damage used and not average, which I found kind of funny. Then again, in its current state, it really doesn't make any sense as to why it works the way it does.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

Those are some interesting results. Have you tried any tests without the 5% damage ring, to get a baseline? If you see hits above your expected max while not using the ring it would explain why you see hits with the ring.

Also, did you look at any of the min damage hits? Since the in game DPS value applies the 5% damage only to your min damage, I would expect that looking at the min damage would yield some good information.

If I can find some time, I'll try testing it a little myself on my wiz since I have a pair of Zunimassa boots that have the bonus damage affix.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

The person who posted about the changes that I saw is the same one who informed me of the current mechanics, so I'm pretty inclined to believe it. Honestly I wouldn't be suprised if it was always that way and was just a tooltip error, but I don't think we'll know for sure outside of testing now, and it's not worth it to me to check since a change is coming, whenever the patch gets released.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

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