With the recent discussion of stat allocation and skill builds, I have been doing some thinking about where character customization comes from. Those who cry out for D2 style stat allocation and skill trees, I believe, are stuck in the defunkt customization paradigm which focuses on the mechanics of a game being the root of customization.
Let me offer an example.
In Heroes of Newerth, each character has 4 skills. There stats are set in stone and increment at a set rate per level. Take the example of the ganking hero, Pyromancer. His four abilities follow:
Phoenix Wave
Pyromancer sends forth a Phoenix that damages enemies in a line.
Level 1: Deals 100 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 2: Deals 170 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 3: Deals 230 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 4: Deals 280 magic damage to each target in a line.
Mana cost 90/105/125/140
Cooldown 9 seconds
Dragonfire
Pyromancer conjures a mighty elemental fire dragon at a target location, damaging and stunning enemies in an area.
Level 1: Deals 90 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 2: Deals 150 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 3: Deals 210 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 4: Deals 280 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Mana cost 90/100/110/125
Cooldown 10 seconds
Fervor
Pyromancer increases his cast, attack, and movement speed after casting while at the same time catching anything he hits with spells or attacks on fire for a short time.
Passive Bonuses
+10/20/30/40 Cast speed
On any spell damage or attack damage done, applies Burning! to the target for 3 seconds.
Burning! Effects
-1/2/3/4 damage per second
After Casting a spell applies Fervor to self for 6 seconds and adds one charge.
+2/3/4/5% Movement speed per charge
+20/30/40/50 Attack speed per charge
Blazing Strike
Using power granted from Sol, Pyromancer hurls a blazing hot fireball at a target enemy, dealing massive damage. This ability is boosted by Staff of the Master.
Level 1: Deals 450 magic damage to a target
Level 2: Deals 675 magic damage to a target
Level 3: Deals 950 magic damage to a target
Mana Cost 280/420/620
Cooldown 150/90/55 seconds
Standard operating procedure for skill builds in this game is to get your stun, then level your nuke. Because Pyromancer is generally played as a "ganker" this is the standard way to build him. You are allocated one skill point per level. So the average player will alternate between the stun (skill 2) and the nuke (skill 1) in order to put out as much damage as possible.
But there are things to consider here. First, Pyromancer's second ability, the stun, has a delay on it. It can be difficult to land if you don't lead your enemy properly and your enemy is skilled at dodging it. Second, his third ability can be strong and can put out a lot of damage if you can keep the enemy locked down long enough to auto attack when it's active. Thirdly, the third ability is a strong harassment tool. In the lane, you can auto attack the enemy hero occasionally and the dot damage from the third ability will annoy the piss out of them and drain their health pool.
The point is this, even though most players will level the first and second skill, then get the fourth skill whenever they can, this is not the only way to play the hero. Lets say you have a hard time landing the stun because either you are not very skilled or your opponent is very skilled at dodging it. As such, you decide to level the first skill and the third skill and save your stun for later, or you decide to level the second skill once and hope ot land it, but focus on your third and first skills because you know you can use them.
Herein lies the point - the customization for how each person plays Pyromancer depends HEAVILY on his or her playstyle, and the role they intend to play on the team. Perhaps you are the only person with a stun on your team and so your team's success demands that you land your stun. Therefore you might put all your skill points into your stun to make it more powerful.
The same can be applied to Diablo 3 and its skill system. Whatever works better for the group that you're in will be what you use. Whatever works better for you as your play style will be what you use. This is the ultimate form of customization and because no two players play the same way, they will ultimately have different skills equipped. And different runes. Yes, there will be a "typical" build much like many players put points into the nuke and the stun with Pyromancer, but you may run into someone who doesn't put any points into the stun, and still dominates the game.
The ultimate form of customization of your character comes from the player, NOT the mechanics of the game. This is the deepest way to customize and the most satisfying way to allow the player freedom.
You may think that this is a moot point given that players can change their skill build at any time, but the truth is that this is not the case. Having played beta I can tell you that the pace of the game makes the 30 second cool down on abilities seem like an eternity. In reality, you will equip your skills before or at the beginning of the run (perhaps coordinating with your group members for optimum teamwork) and then proceed from there without stopping. Any skill changes will require that the entire group stops and discusses what the pros and cons of a skill switch will be. If there is something that you're lacking (aoe, single target, etc.) then the best way to fill that void will be discussed and then carried out. In my opinion, this sounds like way more fun from a strategic and customizable point of view than having a set in stone skill build with zero flexibility that can't change. It also allows for Blizzard to make encounters further along in the game more challenging because they can assume that you have the entire array of your skills to utilize and that there is no situation which you should not be able to handle.
Anyway that's what I have to say and I'd like to hear your thoughts. Sorry for the wall of text.
Most items in HoN have abilities and every Hero haves 6 slots for items, in total you will have like 6 abilities some skills are passive and not all items necessary have an ability that you can cast.
In HoN the item choice makes your build unique.
That's correct.
Customization by items is random customization, and that is one of the biggest problems of diablo 3 (for some that dont like random customization). You will play depending of items you have and runes that drop,not of your choice (at least not until you get items you need).
Most items in HoN have abilities and every Hero haves 6 slots for items, in total you will have like 6 abilities some skills are passive and not all items necessary have an ability that you can cast.
In HoN the item choice makes your build unique.
That's correct.
Customization by items is random customization, and that is one of the biggest problems of diablo 3 (for some that dont like random customization). You will play depending of items you have and runes that drop,not of your choice (at least not until you get items you need).
No, this is not correct. Stats like strength, vitality, etc. do not determine your playstyle. The sheer amount of items in game will allow you to pick and choose your stats anyway. Also - you cannot comment on the rate of drops for runes, so you cannot tell me that the "randomness" will create the real customization. This is conjecture at best.
Most items in HoN have abilities and every Hero haves 6 slots for items, in total you will have like 6 abilities some skills are passive and not all items necessary have an ability that you can cast.
In HoN the item choice makes your build unique.
This is only true when it comes to carries. Support/gankers like Pyromancer or Voodoo Jester do not rely on items to be effective and therefore your argument is invalid. At any rate, the items you would get on Pyro/VJ are more akin to runes/skills (like Blink, Staff of the Master).
Even higher tier items like Frostfield Plate, or Guinsoo's give you extra abilities (hex, aoe slow) that are more akin to abilities/runes.
Most items in HoN have abilities and every Hero haves 6 slots for items, in total you will have like 6 abilities some skills are passive and not all items necessary have an ability that you can cast.
In HoN the item choice makes your build unique.
This is only true when it comes to carries. Support/gankers like Pyromancer or Voodoo Jester do not rely on items to be effective and therefore your argument is invalid. At any rate, the items you would get on Pyro/VJ are more akin to runes/skills (like Blink, Staff of the Master).
Even higher tier items like Frostfield Plate, or Guinsoo's give you extra abilities (hex, aoe slow) that are more akin to abilities/runes.
Dude i was not talking about effectiveness were did you get that do you always put words in peoples mouth ?
I was talking about what factors of customization haves HoN and i said items, read before you post shit.
I've seen your other posts, your implied argument was that stat allocation was where the customization comes from as that is your point of view. Don't play dumb.
Let me offer an example.
In Heroes of Newerth, each character has 4 skills. There stats are set in stone and increment at a set rate per level. Take the example of the ganking hero, Pyromancer. His four abilities follow:
Phoenix Wave
Pyromancer sends forth a Phoenix that damages enemies in a line.
Level 1: Deals 100 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 2: Deals 170 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 3: Deals 230 magic damage to each target in a line.
Level 4: Deals 280 magic damage to each target in a line.
Mana cost 90/105/125/140
Cooldown 9 seconds
Dragonfire
Pyromancer conjures a mighty elemental fire dragon at a target location, damaging and stunning enemies in an area.
Level 1: Deals 90 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 2: Deals 150 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 3: Deals 210 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Level 4: Deals 280 magic damage and stuns each target in the radius for 1.6 seconds
Mana cost 90/100/110/125
Cooldown 10 seconds
Fervor
Pyromancer increases his cast, attack, and movement speed after casting while at the same time catching anything he hits with spells or attacks on fire for a short time.
Passive Bonuses
+10/20/30/40 Cast speed
On any spell damage or attack damage done, applies Burning! to the target for 3 seconds.
Burning! Effects
-1/2/3/4 damage per second
After Casting a spell applies Fervor to self for 6 seconds and adds one charge.
+2/3/4/5% Movement speed per charge
+20/30/40/50 Attack speed per charge
Blazing Strike
Using power granted from Sol, Pyromancer hurls a blazing hot fireball at a target enemy, dealing massive damage. This ability is boosted by Staff of the Master.
Level 1: Deals 450 magic damage to a target
Level 2: Deals 675 magic damage to a target
Level 3: Deals 950 magic damage to a target
Mana Cost 280/420/620
Cooldown 150/90/55 seconds
Standard operating procedure for skill builds in this game is to get your stun, then level your nuke. Because Pyromancer is generally played as a "ganker" this is the standard way to build him. You are allocated one skill point per level. So the average player will alternate between the stun (skill 2) and the nuke (skill 1) in order to put out as much damage as possible.
But there are things to consider here. First, Pyromancer's second ability, the stun, has a delay on it. It can be difficult to land if you don't lead your enemy properly and your enemy is skilled at dodging it. Second, his third ability can be strong and can put out a lot of damage if you can keep the enemy locked down long enough to auto attack when it's active. Thirdly, the third ability is a strong harassment tool. In the lane, you can auto attack the enemy hero occasionally and the dot damage from the third ability will annoy the piss out of them and drain their health pool.
The point is this, even though most players will level the first and second skill, then get the fourth skill whenever they can, this is not the only way to play the hero. Lets say you have a hard time landing the stun because either you are not very skilled or your opponent is very skilled at dodging it. As such, you decide to level the first skill and the third skill and save your stun for later, or you decide to level the second skill once and hope ot land it, but focus on your third and first skills because you know you can use them.
Herein lies the point - the customization for how each person plays Pyromancer depends HEAVILY on his or her playstyle, and the role they intend to play on the team. Perhaps you are the only person with a stun on your team and so your team's success demands that you land your stun. Therefore you might put all your skill points into your stun to make it more powerful.
The same can be applied to Diablo 3 and its skill system. Whatever works better for the group that you're in will be what you use. Whatever works better for you as your play style will be what you use. This is the ultimate form of customization and because no two players play the same way, they will ultimately have different skills equipped. And different runes. Yes, there will be a "typical" build much like many players put points into the nuke and the stun with Pyromancer, but you may run into someone who doesn't put any points into the stun, and still dominates the game.
The ultimate form of customization of your character comes from the player, NOT the mechanics of the game. This is the deepest way to customize and the most satisfying way to allow the player freedom.
You may think that this is a moot point given that players can change their skill build at any time, but the truth is that this is not the case. Having played beta I can tell you that the pace of the game makes the 30 second cool down on abilities seem like an eternity. In reality, you will equip your skills before or at the beginning of the run (perhaps coordinating with your group members for optimum teamwork) and then proceed from there without stopping. Any skill changes will require that the entire group stops and discusses what the pros and cons of a skill switch will be. If there is something that you're lacking (aoe, single target, etc.) then the best way to fill that void will be discussed and then carried out. In my opinion, this sounds like way more fun from a strategic and customizable point of view than having a set in stone skill build with zero flexibility that can't change. It also allows for Blizzard to make encounters further along in the game more challenging because they can assume that you have the entire array of your skills to utilize and that there is no situation which you should not be able to handle.
Anyway that's what I have to say and I'd like to hear your thoughts. Sorry for the wall of text.
I always felt that this was the case for D3. Your play-style determines "customization."
Good read.
Customization by items is random customization, and that is one of the biggest problems of diablo 3 (for some that dont like random customization). You will play depending of items you have and runes that drop,not of your choice (at least not until you get items you need).
No, this is not correct. Stats like strength, vitality, etc. do not determine your playstyle. The sheer amount of items in game will allow you to pick and choose your stats anyway. Also - you cannot comment on the rate of drops for runes, so you cannot tell me that the "randomness" will create the real customization. This is conjecture at best.
This is only true when it comes to carries. Support/gankers like Pyromancer or Voodoo Jester do not rely on items to be effective and therefore your argument is invalid. At any rate, the items you would get on Pyro/VJ are more akin to runes/skills (like Blink, Staff of the Master).
Even higher tier items like Frostfield Plate, or Guinsoo's give you extra abilities (hex, aoe slow) that are more akin to abilities/runes.
I've seen your other posts, your implied argument was that stat allocation was where the customization comes from as that is your point of view. Don't play dumb.