While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.
While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.
I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.
Furthermore, for those who still want an 'endless grind' experience, the end of the dungeon would have TWO portals - one outside and one that ports to another random side dungeon in the same act. Some kind of bonus should be given for clearing a side dungeon and moving on to another one, perhaps as simple as another neph stack or even gold and exp bonuses that multiply by the number of side dungeons cleared in a row. In my honest opinion, this sounds better and truer to the Diablo style than some procedure-generated cave that just keeps going deeper.
The danger of this would be that the above ground maps might become obsolete. So there should be some thought given on the kind of rewards done by dungeon hopping, and it should be different from that of normal grinds. For example, specific achievements and BoA item rewards, maybe even BoA dungeon-only legendaries and sets, maybe even recipes and mats for new BoA gear. This would make the 'endless dungeons' slightly more geared towards the self-found crowd, while above world and normal grind routes will cater more towards gold, sellable gear, and exp.
It's Diablo, not a roguelike, and I don't ever want it to be some kind of hipster indie game clone. The solution should be dungeon content quality, not quantity.
While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.
While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.
I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.
Unfortunately, all I can give you is +1, but you deserve a +1000. Absolutely 100% my opinion.
Can you provide a link to your post on the official forums? Nvm, found it and +1'd as well.
Honestly i feel mobs at higher levels/further areas should do crazy damage and require tanks. Yes i know the argument comes up of having group comps but it would revive the use of shields. Right now shields are terrible on softcore.
They should also award new legendaries that require paragon level x to use.
I like your idea of the way special mobs etc and ways to continue staying in this realm, but "adding" special gear for this is not good, since it Forces the players to farm these areas.
In general i am up for Endless dungeon and these side dungeons, but no "Special rewards" for going into them = MANDATORY.
Wrong.
Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes. With this design, you'd get less gold than if you ran normal grind routes. The entire idea is that the flavor of the dungeon runs drops more BoA items, ranging from BoA gear itself to BoA mats you can use for new recipes (Besides, you'd need to drop out of the dungeons from time to time anyway to farm real gold-generating items just to pay for the crafting costs).
We're coming into the highly anticipated itemization patch. It should be easy enough to tinker item levels so that the best gear is still found via normal grinding (which is my favored idea, because I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement). So what if BoA gear drops during the dungeon runs, but it maxes out at iLvl 62? Hardly mandatory now, don't you think? And yet it provides undergeared players an option - an OPTION, mind - to get some decent items to help them start doing Ubers and high MP farm runs. At the same time, those players who clamor for more self-found gear and despise the AH have an entire new route open to them.
I don't really understand the difference between an endless dungeon and clearing act 1 to 4. It seems to me that most people that are asking for endless dungeon just want keeps lvl 1/2/3/4/... etc with 2x as many demons as there are now.
I totally agree with you to be honest, but I'm afraid that this whole 'endless dungeon' garbage has acquired a life of its own. To that end, if we're getting something like that anyway, I'd rather it be something that's more Diablo and original than something more... Disgaea.
Honestly i feel mobs at higher levels/further areas should do crazy damage and require tanks. Yes i know the argument comes up of having group comps but it would revive the use of shields. Right now shields are terrible on softcore.
They should also award new legendaries that require paragon level x to use.
Not sure I like the Paragon-required gear idea. The devs have already stated that they don't want Paragon levels to become a requirement, rather than a reward, and having the best gear need P-levels means exactly that.
I'd be fine with an endless dungeon without bonuses that would just drop DE like normal but have a nice stream of elite packs on it. That way, lowly geared players would also be able to "gear up", like i'm doing atm, with crafts. And that works fine already tbh.
Unfortunately, a constant stream of elites is in and of itself a big bonus. If you think it'll help low geared players, imagine what it'll do for the Archon Wizard with 300k 555k dps.
i am just personally against items only dropping in specific location of the game (not counting keys).
Here's something we agree on, actually, as it makes Diablo feel more like one of those Korean MMO farmbotfests. However, the devs have mentioned location/boss-based specific drops before - for example, giving the Butcher an increased chance to drop the two pieces of gear named after him.
I'm throwing out this idea as a way to implement that thought, while still keeping the essential loot randomness that makes Diablo what it is. To clarify, in my idea the dungeon run minibosses can possibly drop a single piece of BoA gear, taken from a GROUP of dungeon BoA's. In other words, killing Boss H doesn't guarantee dropping Phat Lewt H.
EDIT: Ugh, sorry for the double post, I thought I was doing an edit when I was writing this one.
I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement
Really, you don't understand why people like to find their own gear?
I don't understand why people make such a HUGE deal out of it to the point where they try to make the rest of us AH users feel like cheesy gold bots.
It took my LoD werewolf druid 8 years to drop my BiS Windhammer. EIGHT. YEARS. That's right, I dropped the one weapon I needed more than anything in 2009. I did NOT feel a single shred of achievement when I got it. I just kind of looked at it sadly, sighed, slapped a skull on it and equipped it, and went on grinding through Harrogath.
I don't know about you, but I personally don't care to repeat that experience. As far as I'm concerned, God bless the gold AH. I have zero problems with other people getting luckier than me and dropping trifectas and selling them for better gear. Good for them, I say, they're enjoying the Diablo experience to the fullest. I'm not petty enough to get mad that I can't buy the best gear on the AH, and it bugged the hell out of me in Diablo 2 to drop a great item none of my builds could use, and having to log on one of my millions of mules just to find space to stash it in.
But anyway, this is all rather off topic. I acknowledge the fact that a sizeable group of people WANT more self found gear, and this idea should satisfy them somewhat.
Wrong.
It is if one wants the BiS Gloves or shoulders, and since it's a loot game everyone wants those meaning crafting IS mandatory.
OT: Already posted this in official forums, but be it either survival mode with several waves incoming like the old days of wc3 tower defense or endless dungeon, i hope something is added to the profile, like highest floor achieved or highest wave survived, just below the most gold collected etc.
The rewards could be entirely new stuff, like each floor/wave cleared would give nephalem tokens that could be redeemed from a special vendor in the entrance.
Tokens would buy stuff like a dye that would consume an item (removing it from the economy) and then could be used on another to give it the same look.
Different potions, a potion that absorbs 25k fire/physical etc dmg, shares cooldown but stronger than normal pots although more specific.
Hell even an item to wear your banner on your back like wings would be awesome.
Of course the ammount of tokens and the rewards would have to be balanced, the mobs would drop only gold and legendaries @ same rate of other mobs but not award any xp or low quality items, that way ppl can still farm the game for xp and salvage mats/demonic essences, and farm endless dungeon for chalenge and alternative items.
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Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
It is if u want the best shoulders in the game and/or gloves, and since this is a loot game where everyone strives for the best gear... yeah it is pretty mandatory.
Please include the entire sentence next time.
Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes.
I acknowledge the fact that in the end, if you really want the best dps possible, you'll need to dabble with the BoA recipes. That doesn't mean everyone does them to the exclusion of all else, right from hitting level 60, and even if you did, where did you find the gold and the essences? Everyone is running grind routes when they log in. Not everyone sits and crafts all day. That's not exactly mandatory, especially when you're talking about 2 recipes out of over a hundred.
Besides, the ideas I mentioned above have nothing to do with the Archon Spaulders/Gloves BoA's. I was talking about new mats for BoA type gear and how they should not become the object of mandatory runs, a la Alkaiser.
EDIT: Very technically speaking, you're correct when it comes to gems, as the best ones are BoA. Nevertheless, considering that barely anyone wants a crafted weapon as their endgame item (at least for now), I hardly think that makes crafting absolutely mandatory.
My concern with the endless dungeon is that some people want it to be a separate game mode or something you can quickly access via an NPC, in game object, or even portal. I think this is the wrong way to go about it because this will eliminate desire for the dungeons and a week after the patch the forums will be flooded with "Well those were fun for a week, bye Diablo III" threads.
They should be randomly found in the game just like other dungeon. How the system is designed well I had a suggestion in the news thread and don't want to type it again, it's not really important. I just think how they are found will be the most important part of the feature. I don't want to just go get 5 stacks and talk to an NPC in town. I want to find it. I want it to be random. I want it to be Diablo.
If they go with the design I proposed above or something similar, scaling difficulty along with MF/GF means that the dungeon will be the goto place to farm if and only if you can efficiently farm MP levels greater than currently exist and do this in nonideal zones in terms of monster density. And to reach that point you have to go through the lesser MP levels, which also takes time. And once you've farmed MP11-12 equivalents efficiently (somehow) you then have to go to MP13+ territory and you might not be able to handle that so, again, gg.
Creating a single area that's the "best" farm spot once you hit X DPS is the stupidest thing Blizzard could do.
Why waste time fixing monster density? Why waste time implementing Ubers and Monster Power? Why have anything in the game? No one is looking at it unless they're grinding gold so that they can get enough gear from the AH so they can go to the endless dungeon which is the "real" farming spot. It invalidates 90% of the work they've put into the game thusfar only to appease a group of people who can't engage their brains long enough to understand just how disastrous that kind of idea is.
In a world where they're trying to move us away from the AH the idea that an endless dungeon should be the best farming spot once you have a certain level of gear completely destroys that and sends us back to Day 1 with the Act 2 wall and people being stuffed into the AH to overcome that massive hurdle so that they could get the better gear on the other side of the wall.
The problem with that "what is the best spot to farm" question comes from the fact everything can be dropped anywhere. As long as they don't change their philosophy (and they started a little bit with Key Wardens) it doesn't matter the shape of the content, be it the game as we know it, an endless dungeon or whatever, players will find what gives the most reward/hour and farm that place.
So much THIS.
People can claim that the whole 'MP0-10', 'first 30 minutes' floors of the endless dungeon is the only efficient part, but that does NOTHING to change the fact that you've now created the new Alkaizer mandatory run. I know this for a fact because the MP10 Decaying Crypts run doesn't even take 10 minutes. If people can squeeze the best exp and loot out of the game for only the first ten minutes of the endless dungeon, then by god they'll keep grinding those ten minutes, and screw the rest.
I still hold that best solution would be not to create an endless dungeon. Barring that, use existing dungeons and tie them together to give them an 'endless run' feeling, and make sure that the rewards are not exactly the same as for grinding normally.
Otherwise, if all you really want is epeen bragging rights, make it so that the endless dungeon drops NOTHING except for health globes and potions. No gold, no experience, no white drops, no easter egg blue item named after an obscure 1980's Amiga only computer game, NOTHING else.
Implement that, and I'll bet you half the people asking for the endless dungeon will drop the idea, showing that their true intent was just an easy, mindless place to farm.
It would be the 'best' for about 30 minutes of gameplay. To get there you'd have to spend over 60 minutes of gameplay. After those 30 minutes, because the dungeon scales, the gear to farm it efficiently would not exist. Pretty simple concept, no?
I'll just make it a bit clearer. Imagine a character that has MAX DPS (ie every piece of gear perfectly rolled). That character can efficiently farm up to (nonexistent as of now) Monster Power 12 (remember, Blizzard sets the numbers, they can make sure that MP12 but not MP13 is efficient at MAX DPS gearlevel) . So he is farming at more efficiency than the regular game when he's playing at MP11 and MP12.
To get there, he'd have to wade through MP0-MP10 of the dungeon, which Blizzard can make sure takes, say 60minutes. Then he farms the MP11-MP12 area for, say, 30 minutes and then hits MP13, where he's, again, inefficient.
That guy just wasted his time if all he wanted was efficient farming. Another player looking for a challenge and also a bit of a reward in the end, did not waste his time (because he replaced efficiency with 'looking for a challenge').
Still not clear?
So, I have to ask....
Why would we waste Blizzard's time implementing something that is OBVIOUSLY inefficient? Do people's ePeens hurt that hard for distinction that we need this mode?
The "endgame" of Diablo has always been farming for better and better gear. Designing a purposely-inefficient mode seems completely counterproductive in that manner. Going down that road just to bolster 20,000 people's ePeens, to me, is a complete waste of resources.
I'd rather see Blizzard focus on things that apply to a much broader swath of the playerbase. A lot of people tout PoEs races. Only 25% of the players even did one race in season one. Less than 5% of the players did 10 or more races. I think that is almost alienating 95% of the playerbase by focusing so heavily on a system that they really aren't interested in. Something that's "just for ePeen" is not a very good reason to include it.
I think that D3, with millions of players, going down that road would be disastrous. I'd rather see Blizzard focus on giving us meaningful PvP (even though I don't PvP and probably wouldn't use it) because I know there are a LOT of people out there who really want that particular feature. It is broad. It's something a LOT of people did in D2 and brawling is a first step, but it's not the ultimate solution on that front.
The reality of the situation is that if an endless dungeon isn't a competitive farming spot then it is relegated to underuse. But if it's too good of a farming spot then the rest of the world, which they've sunk a lot of time into making equitable and enjoyable, becomes something that no one touches. To me, it seems that the heart of the problem is that there's an assumption that we NEED an endless dungeon, when that very feature is the only thing that creates these problems to begin with.
well i would like to hear what you guys think about my idea. most likely alot of you have the same in mind but mine is slightly different and hope it balances it out a bit more between fun and efficient
Hmm interesting.
I have an idea:
First of how to get there. You need 5 neph stacks, you then need to proceed to kill then end boss of that act (difference in what monsters you fight inside) When you then get back to the encampment near the mercs a red portal opens you can enter (short rp by your mercs about holy !@#$ what is that etc)
When you get inside there is two ways with a sign that show what way. (left is endless dungeon and right is endless tower) Left has a blue ring on the ground and right has a green. when you step on one the other disappear. and a portal appear.
"Endless Dungeon" In here you keep getting waves and waves of mobs which becomes increasingly tougher over time. Mobs is based on the act you are in. (every 4 wave is blue mobs, every 5th wave yellow, every 6th horde(100-200 low health mobs) When you die you get kicked out and can't enter it in that session anymore. There will be a online ranking based on how far you came. To make certain it does not become main farm place due to massive amount of mobs they should have 1/3 of the drop chance/gold dropped compared to outside. and normal mobs can only drop gold. Every 50th wave is boss level and grants a guaranteed legendary drops the guy who has come the furthest in (americas, europe and asia) gets a unigue name/color/picture and he glows with a golden glow ingame.
"Endless Tower" In here you enter a dungeon each level corresponds to a normal dungeon outside it has 2-3 blue yellow mobs packs. and around 20-40 packs of normal mobs drop chance shall we 50% of whats outside and yet again normal mobs can only drop gold. Every 50th level there is a boss room and grants a guaranteed legendary As with Endless dungeon the guy who has come the furthest in (americas, europe and asia) gets a unigue name/color/picture and he glows with a golden glow ingame. And also have an online ranking.
If playing on hardcore...... well don't know I guess that after each wave you have chance to leave the area. On softcore you can't leave the area without dying. if you leave with escape you loose your progress. and teleport does not work. Also you can't res other people inside. When they die their progress gets updated if they beat the old record and then are left in the encampment without a way to get back inside.
Also every 100th wave spawns a uber boss that drops parts for hellfire rings. its a random boss. can even be those that are not current uber. but only 1 mob. and it gives a random part. parts have a 75% chance of dropping
also it does not matter what mp you enter with its equal difficult.
ill might have more ideas in the future but that is what i can think of for now
Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals
- This game had a End Game mode called 'The Ancient Caves'. It was a 99 leveled randomly generated dungeon.
When you entered the cave you were stripped of all your items and you started back at LEVEL 1. Every floor got harder and at lvl 99 you fought an ultimate boss.
It was a cool game mode in Lufia 2 and if implemented in a similar way to D3 I think it would work really well.
The main reason I think this is that an 'Endless Dungeon' mode in D3 should be paired with a 'Ladder' System.
The other reason is that the feature of being stripped of items and starting at lvl 1 when you begin the game mode automatically makes it a "SELF FOUND" mode, which is another big thing for players at the moment.
I am not keen on playing a Ladder but I think that an endless dungeon should be:
1) Not for progression (leveling, gold, items) - But for GLORY
2) Should be designed for more elite/hardcore players (not casuals with limited play time..like myself)
3) Should not be able to use AH - SELF FOUND
4) Can be a change for casuals to try out a new game mode - but does not feel mandatory
1. In inferno, let us go inside the Black soulstone.
2. Every 10th level we meet D1, D2 and D3 bosses, with a endning of an Uber Diablo.
3. 100 levels in total in the first run.
4. % of armor + resistance will decline every 10th level.
5. % of magic- and gold find will raise every 10th level.
6. When finished level 100 dungeon, let us contine with a reset of the areas and monsters, but continue to be more difficult.
7. Bigger packs of elites gives us great treasures, whatever that is.
8. Unlock a banner sigil for every 50 level we reach in Endless Dungeon.
9. Different locations and monsters for every 10th level.
10. The prize for defeating Diablo will be a bit more expansion, some treasure and banners as well as a ingame number which dungeon we reached.
If you die,you will be sent back to a checkpoint every 10th level, except for Hardcore players.
So any new content added isn't worthwhile if it's inefficient?
Ubers aren't efficient, but they provide a specific, tangible, reward which was desireable for everyone at the time they were implemented.
Additions to the game should have a broad appeal. My whole point is that the inefficiency + niche appeal makes your idea *atrocious.* You chose to ignore what I said about PoE, but the numbers are there, and the PoE community considers it far more hardcore than the D3 community does. Yet, still, they only have roughly 5% of their playerbase participating regularly in races. Implementing features that are only to appease such a narrow segment of the population IS a waste of time and there are numbers to suggest that races in PoE aren't nearly as successful as people would pass them off to be.
You can hope they give all that through the acts, by introducing more dungeons or by allowing the existing ones to go deeper than (mostly) level 2. That takes significant development time too but stifles the 'epeen crowd'. Or they could implement PvP, which has been shown to take a lot of resources, balancing etc. Endless dungeon requires none of that.
I'm sorry, but the entire D3 development team disagrees with you since Mike Morhaime came out in November and said that eSports were not where they were going with D3. It's clear that they don't give two fucks about the "ePeen crowd" and good for them. I'm happy for you that you're more concerned with designing content that lets you know Kripparian's world ranking in X aspect of Y game, but if you really desire that you can go play PoE. In the words of Mike Morhaime:
Diablo 3 was never really designed to be an eSport, and not every game necessarily needs to be an eSport.
As for me, I want good content that appeals to as many people as possible. I don't want Blizzard wasting their time to appease the "ePeen crowd" as those people have long since left D3. They're all the idiots who clamor about "world first" this and that. Blizzard tried to cater to the "ePeen crowd" with that horrible Inferno design on launch and it failed massively because that IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACTUAL DIABLO PLAYERBASE.
So, if your only rationale here is that we need an endless dungeon to cater to people who (mostly) quit D3 a while ago.... well, I'm going to go ahead and let you know that it's just not going to happen. Diablo 1 and 2 were never about catering to that crowd and Blizzard knows who their fans are. If you truly believe that catering to the Kripparians of the world is vital to D3s success I'll just point you to the fact that Kripparian and all his eSport competition-driven followers declared D3 dead within four weeks of launch. Looks like their crystal balls aren't quite so reliable.
Since Kripp and his neckbeard fanboys quit D3 the game has progressively gotten better because Blizzard hasn't had to suffer through the deluge of asshattery surrounding the LoL generation. Oddly enough, LoL has massive issues with the attitudes (and resulting words/actions) of a very vocal minority of their players - perhaps it's a general issue with the crowd you so eagerly look up to as the Gods of the internet such that they need to be given their own special D3 content. There are tons of games that directly cater to your precious "ePeen crowd" and I'd suggest that you try them out if they mean so much to you. Just realize that most of us aren't into internet ass-kissing and worshipping of people who play Van Helsing 16 hours per day. We didn't need it in Diablo 1 or 2 and we sure as hell don't need it in Diablo 3.
EDIT
Besides, if you just want to know rankings, then why not a no-loot endless dungeon that's done PURELY for sport and not for profit? Wouldn't that suffice? Acquire your gear through standard gameplay then go to the endless dungeon to test your mettle. Doesn't that accomplish exactly what you want without changing the focus of the game one bit?
1. In inferno, let us go inside the Black soulstone.
2. Every 10th level we meet D1, D2 and D3 bosses, with a endning of an Uber Diablo.
3. 100 levels in total in the first run.
4. % of armor + resistance will decline every 10th level.
5. % of magic- and gold find will raise every 10th level.
6. When finished level 100 dungeon, let us contine with a reset of the areas and monsters, but continue to be more difficult.
7. Bigger packs of elites gives us great treasures, whatever that is.
8. Unlock a banner sigil for every 50 level we reach in Endless Dungeon.
9. Different locations and monsters for every 10th level.
10. The prize for defeating Diablo will be a bit more expansion, some treasure and banners as well as a ingame number which dungeon we reached.
If you die,you will be sent back to a checkpoint every 10th level, except for Hardcore players.
I came here to give my 2 cents, but this really covers it. I think endless dungeons would be a good addition.....don't mess this up Blizzard.
I think the simple solution to making it both more rewarding than normal farm locations, but not invalidating the "normal" runs we're doing now is to relegate it to a bonus round mechanic like the Infernal Machine is. You collect some items that you would find through normal play and use it to unlock the endless dungeon. My preference would be a mix between demonic essences in keys. Something different required from each act, but it will randomly drop off elite mobs instead. I'd also prefer a no-respawn/revives to really give it that bonus round feel.
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While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.
While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.
I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.
Furthermore, for those who still want an 'endless grind' experience, the end of the dungeon would have TWO portals - one outside and one that ports to another random side dungeon in the same act. Some kind of bonus should be given for clearing a side dungeon and moving on to another one, perhaps as simple as another neph stack or even gold and exp bonuses that multiply by the number of side dungeons cleared in a row. In my honest opinion, this sounds better and truer to the Diablo style than some procedure-generated cave that just keeps going deeper.
The danger of this would be that the above ground maps might become obsolete. So there should be some thought given on the kind of rewards done by dungeon hopping, and it should be different from that of normal grinds. For example, specific achievements and BoA item rewards, maybe even BoA dungeon-only legendaries and sets, maybe even recipes and mats for new BoA gear. This would make the 'endless dungeons' slightly more geared towards the self-found crowd, while above world and normal grind routes will cater more towards gold, sellable gear, and exp.
It's Diablo, not a roguelike, and I don't ever want it to be some kind of hipster indie game clone. The solution should be dungeon content quality, not quantity.
Unfortunately, all I can give you is +1, but you deserve a +1000. Absolutely 100% my opinion.
Can you provide a link to your post on the official forums? Nvm, found it and +1'd as well.
They should also award new legendaries that require paragon level x to use.
Wrong.
Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes. With this design, you'd get less gold than if you ran normal grind routes. The entire idea is that the flavor of the dungeon runs drops more BoA items, ranging from BoA gear itself to BoA mats you can use for new recipes (Besides, you'd need to drop out of the dungeons from time to time anyway to farm real gold-generating items just to pay for the crafting costs).
We're coming into the highly anticipated itemization patch. It should be easy enough to tinker item levels so that the best gear is still found via normal grinding (which is my favored idea, because I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement). So what if BoA gear drops during the dungeon runs, but it maxes out at iLvl 62? Hardly mandatory now, don't you think? And yet it provides undergeared players an option - an OPTION, mind - to get some decent items to help them start doing Ubers and high MP farm runs. At the same time, those players who clamor for more self-found gear and despise the AH have an entire new route open to them.
I totally agree with you to be honest, but I'm afraid that this whole 'endless dungeon' garbage has acquired a life of its own. To that end, if we're getting something like that anyway, I'd rather it be something that's more Diablo and original than something more... Disgaea.
Not sure I like the Paragon-required gear idea. The devs have already stated that they don't want Paragon levels to become a requirement, rather than a reward, and having the best gear need P-levels means exactly that.
However, I am SO with you on shields and tanking type characters, to the point where I will shamelessly plug an old thread of mine where I argue how bad shields have become in the current environment.
Unfortunately, a constant stream of elites is in and of itself a big bonus. If you think it'll help low geared players, imagine what it'll do for the Archon Wizard with
300k555k dps.... yes, I'm looking at you, Jaetch.
Here's something we agree on, actually, as it makes Diablo feel more like one of those Korean MMO farmbotfests. However, the devs have mentioned location/boss-based specific drops before - for example, giving the Butcher an increased chance to drop the two pieces of gear named after him.
I'm throwing out this idea as a way to implement that thought, while still keeping the essential loot randomness that makes Diablo what it is. To clarify, in my idea the dungeon run minibosses can possibly drop a single piece of BoA gear, taken from a GROUP of dungeon BoA's. In other words, killing Boss H doesn't guarantee dropping Phat Lewt H.
EDIT: Ugh, sorry for the double post, I thought I was doing an edit when I was writing this one.
I don't understand why people make such a HUGE deal out of it to the point where they try to make the rest of us AH users feel like cheesy gold bots.
It took my LoD werewolf druid 8 years to drop my BiS Windhammer. EIGHT. YEARS. That's right, I dropped the one weapon I needed more than anything in 2009. I did NOT feel a single shred of achievement when I got it. I just kind of looked at it sadly, sighed, slapped a skull on it and equipped it, and went on grinding through Harrogath.
I don't know about you, but I personally don't care to repeat that experience. As far as I'm concerned, God bless the gold AH. I have zero problems with other people getting luckier than me and dropping trifectas and selling them for better gear. Good for them, I say, they're enjoying the Diablo experience to the fullest. I'm not petty enough to get mad that I can't buy the best gear on the AH, and it bugged the hell out of me in Diablo 2 to drop a great item none of my builds could use, and having to log on one of my millions of mules just to find space to stash it in.
But anyway, this is all rather off topic. I acknowledge the fact that a sizeable group of people WANT more self found gear, and this idea should satisfy them somewhat.
2) :Thumbs Up:
Wrong.
It is if one wants the BiS Gloves or shoulders, and since it's a loot game everyone wants those meaning crafting IS mandatory.
OT: Already posted this in official forums, but be it either survival mode with several waves incoming like the old days of wc3 tower defense or endless dungeon, i hope something is added to the profile, like highest floor achieved or highest wave survived, just below the most gold collected etc.
The rewards could be entirely new stuff, like each floor/wave cleared would give nephalem tokens that could be redeemed from a special vendor in the entrance.
Tokens would buy stuff like a dye that would consume an item (removing it from the economy) and then could be used on another to give it the same look.
Different potions, a potion that absorbs 25k fire/physical etc dmg, shares cooldown but stronger than normal pots although more specific.
Hell even an item to wear your banner on your back like wings would be awesome.
Of course the ammount of tokens and the rewards would have to be balanced, the mobs would drop only gold and legendaries @ same rate of other mobs but not award any xp or low quality items, that way ppl can still farm the game for xp and salvage mats/demonic essences, and farm endless dungeon for chalenge and alternative items.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Please include the entire sentence next time.
I acknowledge the fact that in the end, if you really want the best dps possible, you'll need to dabble with the BoA recipes. That doesn't mean everyone does them to the exclusion of all else, right from hitting level 60, and even if you did, where did you find the gold and the essences? Everyone is running grind routes when they log in. Not everyone sits and crafts all day. That's not exactly mandatory, especially when you're talking about 2 recipes out of over a hundred.
Besides, the ideas I mentioned above have nothing to do with the Archon Spaulders/Gloves BoA's. I was talking about new mats for BoA type gear and how they should not become the object of mandatory runs, a la Alkaiser.
EDIT: Very technically speaking, you're correct when it comes to gems, as the best ones are BoA. Nevertheless, considering that barely anyone wants a crafted weapon as their endgame item (at least for now), I hardly think that makes crafting absolutely mandatory.
Perhaps we just have different definitions of it.
They should be randomly found in the game just like other dungeon. How the system is designed well I had a suggestion in the news thread and don't want to type it again, it's not really important. I just think how they are found will be the most important part of the feature. I don't want to just go get 5 stacks and talk to an NPC in town. I want to find it. I want it to be random. I want it to be Diablo.
Creating a single area that's the "best" farm spot once you hit X DPS is the stupidest thing Blizzard could do.
Why waste time fixing monster density? Why waste time implementing Ubers and Monster Power? Why have anything in the game? No one is looking at it unless they're grinding gold so that they can get enough gear from the AH so they can go to the endless dungeon which is the "real" farming spot. It invalidates 90% of the work they've put into the game thusfar only to appease a group of people who can't engage their brains long enough to understand just how disastrous that kind of idea is.
In a world where they're trying to move us away from the AH the idea that an endless dungeon should be the best farming spot once you have a certain level of gear completely destroys that and sends us back to Day 1 with the Act 2 wall and people being stuffed into the AH to overcome that massive hurdle so that they could get the better gear on the other side of the wall.
So much THIS.
People can claim that the whole 'MP0-10', 'first 30 minutes' floors of the endless dungeon is the only efficient part, but that does NOTHING to change the fact that you've now created the new Alkaizer mandatory run. I know this for a fact because the MP10 Decaying Crypts run doesn't even take 10 minutes. If people can squeeze the best exp and loot out of the game for only the first ten minutes of the endless dungeon, then by god they'll keep grinding those ten minutes, and screw the rest.
I still hold that best solution would be not to create an endless dungeon. Barring that, use existing dungeons and tie them together to give them an 'endless run' feeling, and make sure that the rewards are not exactly the same as for grinding normally.
Otherwise, if all you really want is epeen bragging rights, make it so that the endless dungeon drops NOTHING except for health globes and potions. No gold, no experience, no white drops, no easter egg blue item named after an obscure 1980's Amiga only computer game, NOTHING else.
Implement that, and I'll bet you half the people asking for the endless dungeon will drop the idea, showing that their true intent was just an easy, mindless place to farm.
So, I have to ask....
Why would we waste Blizzard's time implementing something that is OBVIOUSLY inefficient? Do people's ePeens hurt that hard for distinction that we need this mode?
The "endgame" of Diablo has always been farming for better and better gear. Designing a purposely-inefficient mode seems completely counterproductive in that manner. Going down that road just to bolster 20,000 people's ePeens, to me, is a complete waste of resources.
I'd rather see Blizzard focus on things that apply to a much broader swath of the playerbase. A lot of people tout PoEs races. Only 25% of the players even did one race in season one. Less than 5% of the players did 10 or more races. I think that is almost alienating 95% of the playerbase by focusing so heavily on a system that they really aren't interested in. Something that's "just for ePeen" is not a very good reason to include it.
I think that D3, with millions of players, going down that road would be disastrous. I'd rather see Blizzard focus on giving us meaningful PvP (even though I don't PvP and probably wouldn't use it) because I know there are a LOT of people out there who really want that particular feature. It is broad. It's something a LOT of people did in D2 and brawling is a first step, but it's not the ultimate solution on that front.
The reality of the situation is that if an endless dungeon isn't a competitive farming spot then it is relegated to underuse. But if it's too good of a farming spot then the rest of the world, which they've sunk a lot of time into making equitable and enjoyable, becomes something that no one touches. To me, it seems that the heart of the problem is that there's an assumption that we NEED an endless dungeon, when that very feature is the only thing that creates these problems to begin with.
Hmm interesting.
I have an idea:
First of how to get there. You need 5 neph stacks, you then need to proceed to kill then end boss of that act (difference in what monsters you fight inside) When you then get back to the encampment near the mercs a red portal opens you can enter (short rp by your mercs about holy !@#$ what is that etc)
When you get inside there is two ways with a sign that show what way. (left is endless dungeon and right is endless tower) Left has a blue ring on the ground and right has a green. when you step on one the other disappear. and a portal appear.
"Endless Dungeon"
In here you keep getting waves and waves of mobs which becomes increasingly tougher over time. Mobs is based on the act you are in. (every 4 wave is blue mobs, every 5th wave yellow, every 6th horde(100-200 low health mobs) When you die you get kicked out and can't enter it in that session anymore. There will be a online ranking based on how far you came. To make certain it does not become main farm place due to massive amount of mobs they should have 1/3 of the drop chance/gold dropped compared to outside. and normal mobs can only drop gold. Every 50th wave is boss level and grants a guaranteed legendary drops the guy who has come the furthest in (americas, europe and asia) gets a unigue name/color/picture and he glows with a golden glow ingame.
"Endless Tower"
In here you enter a dungeon each level corresponds to a normal dungeon outside it has 2-3 blue yellow mobs packs. and around 20-40 packs of normal mobs drop chance shall we 50% of whats outside and yet again normal mobs can only drop gold.
Every 50th level there is a boss room and grants a guaranteed legendary
As with Endless dungeon the guy who has come the furthest in (americas, europe and asia) gets a unigue name/color/picture and he glows with a golden glow ingame. And also have an online ranking.
If playing on hardcore...... well don't know I guess that after each wave you have chance to leave the area. On softcore you can't leave the area without dying. if you leave with escape you loose your progress. and teleport does not work. Also you can't res other people inside. When they die their progress gets updated if they beat the old record and then are left in the encampment without a way to get back inside.
Also every 100th wave spawns a uber boss that drops parts for hellfire rings. its a random boss. can even be those that are not current uber. but only 1 mob. and it gives a random part. parts have a 75% chance of dropping
also it does not matter what mp you enter with its equal difficult.
ill might have more ideas in the future but that is what i can think of for now
- This game had a End Game mode called 'The Ancient Caves'. It was a 99 leveled randomly generated dungeon.
When you entered the cave you were stripped of all your items and you started back at LEVEL 1. Every floor got harder and at lvl 99 you fought an ultimate boss.
It was a cool game mode in Lufia 2 and if implemented in a similar way to D3 I think it would work really well.
The main reason I think this is that an 'Endless Dungeon' mode in D3 should be paired with a 'Ladder' System.
The other reason is that the feature of being stripped of items and starting at lvl 1 when you begin the game mode automatically makes it a "SELF FOUND" mode, which is another big thing for players at the moment.
I am not keen on playing a Ladder but I think that an endless dungeon should be:
1) Not for progression (leveling, gold, items) - But for GLORY
2) Should be designed for more elite/hardcore players (not casuals with limited play time..like myself)
3) Should not be able to use AH - SELF FOUND
4) Can be a change for casuals to try out a new game mode - but does not feel mandatory
Ancient Caves - from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia...._the_Sinistrals
Cheers,
CheehC
In a patch or expansion.
1. In inferno, let us go inside the Black soulstone.
2. Every 10th level we meet D1, D2 and D3 bosses, with a endning of an Uber Diablo.
3. 100 levels in total in the first run.
4. % of armor + resistance will decline every 10th level.
5. % of magic- and gold find will raise every 10th level.
6. When finished level 100 dungeon, let us contine with a reset of the areas and monsters, but continue to be more difficult.
7. Bigger packs of elites gives us great treasures, whatever that is.
8. Unlock a banner sigil for every 50 level we reach in Endless Dungeon.
9. Different locations and monsters for every 10th level.
10. The prize for defeating Diablo will be a bit more expansion, some treasure and banners as well as a ingame number which dungeon we reached.
If you die,you will be sent back to a checkpoint every 10th level, except for Hardcore players.
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
Ubers aren't efficient, but they provide a specific, tangible, reward which was desireable for everyone at the time they were implemented.
Additions to the game should have a broad appeal. My whole point is that the inefficiency + niche appeal makes your idea *atrocious.* You chose to ignore what I said about PoE, but the numbers are there, and the PoE community considers it far more hardcore than the D3 community does. Yet, still, they only have roughly 5% of their playerbase participating regularly in races. Implementing features that are only to appease such a narrow segment of the population IS a waste of time and there are numbers to suggest that races in PoE aren't nearly as successful as people would pass them off to be.
I'm sorry, but the entire D3 development team disagrees with you since Mike Morhaime came out in November and said that eSports were not where they were going with D3. It's clear that they don't give two fucks about the "ePeen crowd" and good for them. I'm happy for you that you're more concerned with designing content that lets you know Kripparian's world ranking in X aspect of Y game, but if you really desire that you can go play PoE. In the words of Mike Morhaime:
As for me, I want good content that appeals to as many people as possible. I don't want Blizzard wasting their time to appease the "ePeen crowd" as those people have long since left D3. They're all the idiots who clamor about "world first" this and that. Blizzard tried to cater to the "ePeen crowd" with that horrible Inferno design on launch and it failed massively because that IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACTUAL DIABLO PLAYERBASE.
So, if your only rationale here is that we need an endless dungeon to cater to people who (mostly) quit D3 a while ago.... well, I'm going to go ahead and let you know that it's just not going to happen. Diablo 1 and 2 were never about catering to that crowd and Blizzard knows who their fans are. If you truly believe that catering to the Kripparians of the world is vital to D3s success I'll just point you to the fact that Kripparian and all his eSport competition-driven followers declared D3 dead within four weeks of launch. Looks like their crystal balls aren't quite so reliable.
Since Kripp and his neckbeard fanboys quit D3 the game has progressively gotten better because Blizzard hasn't had to suffer through the deluge of asshattery surrounding the LoL generation. Oddly enough, LoL has massive issues with the attitudes (and resulting words/actions) of a very vocal minority of their players - perhaps it's a general issue with the crowd you so eagerly look up to as the Gods of the internet such that they need to be given their own special D3 content. There are tons of games that directly cater to your precious "ePeen crowd" and I'd suggest that you try them out if they mean so much to you. Just realize that most of us aren't into internet ass-kissing and worshipping of people who play Van Helsing 16 hours per day. We didn't need it in Diablo 1 or 2 and we sure as hell don't need it in Diablo 3.
EDIT
Besides, if you just want to know rankings, then why not a no-loot endless dungeon that's done PURELY for sport and not for profit? Wouldn't that suffice? Acquire your gear through standard gameplay then go to the endless dungeon to test your mettle. Doesn't that accomplish exactly what you want without changing the focus of the game one bit?
I came here to give my 2 cents, but this really covers it. I think endless dungeons would be a good addition.....don't mess this up Blizzard.
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