There was a recent post on battle.net discouraging the return of magic find in Diablo III. The poster claimed that it ruined the need for better combat gear because "everyone" only cared about the MF gear. I think many of the players here can agree that MF was a vital stat to look for on gear.
Bashiok responded by saying:
Official Blizzard Quote:
I think the trick with magic find, or any sort of tertiary stat that doesn't directly relate to player power, is to make sure that it's an actual trade off. A lot of times and specifically for certain classes in Diablo II you could stack magic find and still be perfectly able to fight and kill. So what it really comes down to is properly weighting stats on items and ensuring that if you do want to stack something like magic find, that it's clearly going to limit your power in downing enemies. Auto-stats to a degree also help out in this regard as you can't effectively stack stats as easily to offset the loss of stats coming from items that might otherwise help keep you alive or kill at an acceptable pace.
That said magic find isn't fully drawn up yet, there's not a complete pool of itemization where we can begin tweaking balance to a degree where we can ensure MF doesn't get out of hand. It could turn out that we need to take an alternate approach, but, if I had to guess simply weighting the stat properly would be enough.
He also finished another post by saying:
Official Blizzard Quote:
Whatevs. Magic find is fine. IT'S FINE Y'ALL! Ok, thread ended.
Basically saying that a probable solution to "fixing" MF is to give a high enough trade-off for damage stats. It has been stated before and here again that MF will be returning in Diablo III.
Are you glad that MF will be returning? and if so, what do they need to change to fix the system, if any?
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MF in D2 was quite well-designed. It can be improved though.
I had a necro and sorceress with 800% MF while runnning pindle and Threshsocket.
When playing normally, I usually have between 200-300 except on sorceresses(I have more on them).
Spellcasters can afford more MF gear than melee players and that's an unfair advantage.
Finding a balance whereby each player-type can equip decent MF gear without drastic reduction in power or increased vulnerability will definitely be better for gameplay.
I know for myself, that I would never care about MF on my armor or weapons but I would try to stack up the stat on my rings and amulet. I always enjoyed getting better armor and weapons with more defense and damage but the rings and amulet slots seemed like a good place for this type of stat.
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I think it worked pretty well in diablo 2. I'm glad mf is returning. Nekrodrac does make a good point that melee characters are affected much more by the mf/non mf tradeoff. This should be addressed, but other than that I like the fact that you can choose to be a little weaker in some areas but sronger in others. Mf is only one example of this. Resists, defense, etc, all the item attributes come into play. Do I want higher defense, or more resistances? Do I want more MF or more Life/mana leech?
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"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
I'll be different mind from others. I dislike d2 mf and I don't find it work well...
Quote from scyberdragon »
I always enjoyed getting better armor and weapons with more defense and damage but the rings and amulet slots seemed like a good place for this type of stat
You make me think about something, an item only for mf (like ring). Now you won't sacrifice stats for that.
The problem with mf is : more you have mf, more you find mf items, less you have mf, less you find mf items. It's an exponential step between players who don't care about mf and those who do it all their days (800% mf god damn) lol.
My problem with MF Is that it made too big of an impact on drops. I think all drops should be primarily from random drops. That is what makes diablo so much fun. I remember my first set item was from a random barrel. I know MF doesn't change the randomess but it turns the game into more about the gear then the killing. The drops are rewards for killing everything. When MF makes to big of an impact it causes farming over enjoying the game and hoping to get a good item.
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Wizard can not teleport through walls or doors, and the teleport has quite a substantial cool-down.
I didn't know this. That will change the game alot. ......Hhhhhhhh thinking about this stuff just makes me want to play it more to see what it's like....Sigh....
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"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
The problem with MF is that it looks like a too desirable stat. In the end people will allways seek builds and characters that are less gear dependent and use it to MF.
The great problem with D2 is that the trade off were really imba towards MF (you can get gears with 300% MF, but no way in hell trade those 300% MF for a pure combat gear increase your power to a point that you kill round three times faster. In the end the MF allways win if you play attention to the diminish returns).
Imo the solution is put a very balanced trade-off between power and magic find.
Also, remenber we will problably play some attention to the gold find, wich is another decision to take.
I just want diablo to be about killing monsters and not trying to find gear. By keeping MF and if they implement a different trade mechanic like an AH then tons of people will still stack MF to trade gear. People are free to play how they want but I prefer the items to be the rewards for killing and not killing as a means to find gear.
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Well....killing monsters just for the sake of killing them gets tiresome quite quickly...
That is the reason I want loads of randomized side quests and specific class quests(randomized as well!) to keep the fun going strong...
Personally, I like to try and use the best gear. The only times I used magic find is when it happened to be on the best stuff. The unique shako, for instance.
I just don't see putting a gul dagger in one of my barb's hands when I could have been using an ethereal breath of the dying instead. Thats just lame. Why would I use an ali baba's blade when I've got a wizardspike? I just don't see it. That's my style, you don't have to agree.
Unless they tack magic find onto some GOOD items, I won't use it. The fact that crappy items were in high demand because they had magic find on them was hilarious to me. I traded all the MF gear I found for good gear and that worked out VERY well for me in D2, I got all the items I could have ever wanted.
ok, i have to ask now, what made d2 last so long? was it the mf/item finding???? was it to get to level 75 then restart? what was it about? cuz i can say for me, finding items was a big part. i wonde rwhat they will do? can u cut out that big of a part?
ok, i have to ask now, what made d2 last so long? was it the mf/item finding???? was it to get to level 75 then restart? what was it about? cuz i can say for me, finding items was a big part. i wonde rwhat they will do? can u cut out that big of a part?
I agree. One of the best parts about Diablo for me was finding items. Trying to find the best item for my character. Or if I wanted to start a different type of character trading for items to fit that char. Also, if I found one or two really good items that fit another type of char better than my current I'd have a reason to start building another character.
@ Scyberdragon: I guess I'm just not sure what the alternative to MF would be Scyber. You like killing monsters right? MF is dependent on killing monsters in order to get the items to drop, so where is the problem? I don't mean to sound like I'm patronizing you or anything, I am just not sure what you are hoping for.
It's true people will just farm for items, but there are also people who try to get as high level as they can, and if items drop along the way then YAY! I'm kind of in the middle. I like variation and I find that variation in being able to switch between leveling, and mfing. It's fun sometimes to do a bunch of mf runs...Especially when you find something 1337! Then, to change it up, go do baal runs to try and level. Uber runs made it even more fun cause I had another option for something challenging (never made a smiter).
I just think if you want to mf you can...If not you don't have to. Which sounds like a typical lame response, and maybe it is, but thats my 2 cents. I duno sorry for rambling on, I just don't know what you want Scyber....
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"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
I suppose MF is ok, but MF runs are not. It is just stupid to run the same few monsters over and over again because it is fast to access those bosses and they have a lot higher drop chance.
All the bosses/monsters with higher drop chance should be located in places where you couldn't just step through portal or WP and there they are.
You should have to work through piles of monsters before you reach them.
That would make the game more interesting and it wouldn't feel that you are just farming 1 dude. Also the monsters you kill on the way would grant you exp and even more items.
My problem isn't really with MF, it is what MF suplimented. I personally don't like how item dependent Diablo became. How many SoJ's, zod runes or whatever you have or need. The fact that almost every build is gear dependent with the exact gear you need. Stuff like that. The drops in Diablo should be random and it should never be as easy to get such specific gear. MF and MF runs is what caused this aspect of Diablo. In my opinion, the focus of the game should be killing, not obtaining specific gear and drops.
As for fixing it I have come up with three options that could be used to deter the item finding scenario.
1. Lower the rate of MF. stacking MF became to easy and too potent. They need to make sure that you are not able to raise MF as high as you could in D2 which will lower it's importance.
2. Add a system like the exp bonus for killing combos but with items. The more monsters you kill, you raise your chance for better loot. This will help add the loot system to the games concept of killing hordes of monsters.
3. Give a reason for killing tons of monsters. Through in-game rewards, battle.net rewards or achievements so that later on the games life there is still a reason to actually play through the game rather than just doing MF runs.
Again, these are all just my opinions. I do understand that some people love the item findig aspect of the game. However, when these items become the focus of the game it changes the game for people who actually want to play it by creating the previously mentined problems.
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My problem isn't really with MF, it is what MF suplimented. I personally don't like how item dependent Diablo became. How many SoJ's, zod runes or whatever you have or need. The fact that almost every build is gear dependent with the exact gear you need. Stuff like that. The drops in Diablo should be random and it should never be as easy to get such specific gear. MF and MF runs is what caused this aspect of Diablo. In my opinion, the focus of the game should be killing, not obtaining specific gear and drops.
As for fixing it I have come up with three options that could be used to deter the item finding scenario.
1. Lower the rate of MF. stacking MF became to easy and too potent. They need to make sure that you are not able to raise MF as high as you could in D2 which will lower it's importance.
2. Add a system like the exp bonus for killing combos but with items. The more monsters you kill, you raise your chance for better loot. This will help add the loot system to the games concept of killing hordes of monsters.
3. Give a reason for killing tons of monsters. Through in-game rewards, battle.net rewards or achievements so that later on the games life there is still a reason to actually play through the game rather than just doing MF runs.
Again, these are all just my opinions. I do understand that some people love the item findig aspect of the game. However, when these items become the focus of the game it changes the game for people who actually want to play it by creating the previously mentined problems.
I absolutely love the MF aspect of Diablo 2. However, I see where you are coming from, and especially #2 intrigues me as something really cool that could be implemented. Because of the randomness of item drops, MFing will always be in the game I think, and giving a bonus for chain kills would be a really cool and fun way to go at the problem of the repetetive farming aspect of it.
Yeah. I think item improvement should be rewarded by killing as oppose to have certain gear on. This helps the game stay centered around it's intended purpose KILLING!!! Ideas like bosses dropping better gear based off of how many monsters you killed in that game before defeating the boss coincide with this idea and minimize MF runs.
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Another fix could be...
Add decent MF on good melee weapons.
Check out sorc in D2. You got the occulus and there you have 50% better chance MF and +3 skills...and it is one handed!!! That's way too exaggerated...
How many 2 handed melee weapons do you find in D2 that is as good?
If the concept of D2 MF is kept for D3, all classes must have the same privilege in carrying MF gear with rather similar advantages and disadvantages.
If the concept of D2 MF is kept for D3, all classes must have the same privilege in carrying MF gear with rather similar advantages and disadvantages.
Yeah.. but this difficult to happen :/
And i don't see what MF have to do with play to find items.Without MF you can still kill monsters and monsters still drop stuff, so... it's only more difficult.
What MF truely change in the game is add a equipament trade-off. What people have to think about is that you like this trade-off or not.
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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Bashiok responded by saying:
Official Blizzard Quote:
I think the trick with magic find, or any sort of tertiary stat that doesn't directly relate to player power, is to make sure that it's an actual trade off. A lot of times and specifically for certain classes in Diablo II you could stack magic find and still be perfectly able to fight and kill. So what it really comes down to is properly weighting stats on items and ensuring that if you do want to stack something like magic find, that it's clearly going to limit your power in downing enemies. Auto-stats to a degree also help out in this regard as you can't effectively stack stats as easily to offset the loss of stats coming from items that might otherwise help keep you alive or kill at an acceptable pace.
That said magic find isn't fully drawn up yet, there's not a complete pool of itemization where we can begin tweaking balance to a degree where we can ensure MF doesn't get out of hand. It could turn out that we need to take an alternate approach, but, if I had to guess simply weighting the stat properly would be enough.
He also finished another post by saying:
Official Blizzard Quote:
Whatevs. Magic find is fine. IT'S FINE Y'ALL! Ok, thread ended.
Basically saying that a probable solution to "fixing" MF is to give a high enough trade-off for damage stats. It has been stated before and here again that MF will be returning in Diablo III.
Are you glad that MF will be returning? and if so, what do they need to change to fix the system, if any?
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
I had a necro and sorceress with 800% MF while runnning pindle and Threshsocket.
When playing normally, I usually have between 200-300 except on sorceresses(I have more on them).
Spellcasters can afford more MF gear than melee players and that's an unfair advantage.
Finding a balance whereby each player-type can equip decent MF gear without drastic reduction in power or increased vulnerability will definitely be better for gameplay.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
You make me think about something, an item only for mf (like ring). Now you won't sacrifice stats for that.
The problem with mf is : more you have mf, more you find mf items, less you have mf, less you find mf items. It's an exponential step between players who don't care about mf and those who do it all their days (800% mf god damn) lol.
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
I didn't know this. That will change the game alot. ......Hhhhhhhh thinking about this stuff just makes me want to play it more to see what it's like....Sigh....
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
The great problem with D2 is that the trade off were really imba towards MF (you can get gears with 300% MF, but no way in hell trade those 300% MF for a pure combat gear increase your power to a point that you kill round three times faster. In the end the MF allways win if you play attention to the diminish returns).
Imo the solution is put a very balanced trade-off between power and magic find.
Also, remenber we will problably play some attention to the gold find, wich is another decision to take.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
That is the reason I want loads of randomized side quests and specific class quests(randomized as well!) to keep the fun going strong...
I just don't see putting a gul dagger in one of my barb's hands when I could have been using an ethereal breath of the dying instead. Thats just lame. Why would I use an ali baba's blade when I've got a wizardspike? I just don't see it. That's my style, you don't have to agree.
Unless they tack magic find onto some GOOD items, I won't use it. The fact that crappy items were in high demand because they had magic find on them was hilarious to me. I traded all the MF gear I found for good gear and that worked out VERY well for me in D2, I got all the items I could have ever wanted.
I agree. One of the best parts about Diablo for me was finding items. Trying to find the best item for my character. Or if I wanted to start a different type of character trading for items to fit that char. Also, if I found one or two really good items that fit another type of char better than my current I'd have a reason to start building another character.
@ Scyberdragon: I guess I'm just not sure what the alternative to MF would be Scyber. You like killing monsters right? MF is dependent on killing monsters in order to get the items to drop, so where is the problem? I don't mean to sound like I'm patronizing you or anything, I am just not sure what you are hoping for.
It's true people will just farm for items, but there are also people who try to get as high level as they can, and if items drop along the way then YAY! I'm kind of in the middle. I like variation and I find that variation in being able to switch between leveling, and mfing. It's fun sometimes to do a bunch of mf runs...Especially when you find something 1337! Then, to change it up, go do baal runs to try and level. Uber runs made it even more fun cause I had another option for something challenging (never made a smiter).
I just think if you want to mf you can...If not you don't have to. Which sounds like a typical lame response, and maybe it is, but thats my 2 cents. I duno sorry for rambling on, I just don't know what you want Scyber....
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
All the bosses/monsters with higher drop chance should be located in places where you couldn't just step through portal or WP and there they are.
You should have to work through piles of monsters before you reach them.
That would make the game more interesting and it wouldn't feel that you are just farming 1 dude. Also the monsters you kill on the way would grant you exp and even more items.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
As for fixing it I have come up with three options that could be used to deter the item finding scenario.
1. Lower the rate of MF. stacking MF became to easy and too potent. They need to make sure that you are not able to raise MF as high as you could in D2 which will lower it's importance.
2. Add a system like the exp bonus for killing combos but with items. The more monsters you kill, you raise your chance for better loot. This will help add the loot system to the games concept of killing hordes of monsters.
3. Give a reason for killing tons of monsters. Through in-game rewards, battle.net rewards or achievements so that later on the games life there is still a reason to actually play through the game rather than just doing MF runs.
Again, these are all just my opinions. I do understand that some people love the item findig aspect of the game. However, when these items become the focus of the game it changes the game for people who actually want to play it by creating the previously mentined problems.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
I absolutely love the MF aspect of Diablo 2. However, I see where you are coming from, and especially #2 intrigues me as something really cool that could be implemented. Because of the randomness of item drops, MFing will always be in the game I think, and giving a bonus for chain kills would be a really cool and fun way to go at the problem of the repetetive farming aspect of it.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Add decent MF on good melee weapons.
Check out sorc in D2. You got the occulus and there you have 50% better chance MF and +3 skills...and it is one handed!!! That's way too exaggerated...
How many 2 handed melee weapons do you find in D2 that is as good?
If the concept of D2 MF is kept for D3, all classes must have the same privilege in carrying MF gear with rather similar advantages and disadvantages.
Yeah.. but this difficult to happen :/
And i don't see what MF have to do with play to find items.Without MF you can still kill monsters and monsters still drop stuff, so... it's only more difficult.
What MF truely change in the game is add a equipament trade-off. What people have to think about is that you like this trade-off or not.