The Demon Hunter Unveiled
... For the fifth class.
Today at Blizzcon, the Demon Hunter was revealed to us all. A bow slinging, demon hunting, trap setting conventional ranged character has been given to us.
-Development-
During development dual daggers were tried out, but Blizzard felt this really took away from the ranged feel, thus they made the move to dual wielding crossbows. At first, the Demon Hunter wasn't even human. It started out as a full demon, and more recently, a demon/human hybrid. Now, with the released version, the Demon Hunter is fully human. A sleek medieval look has been settled upon, with a signature scarf and arm guard present on all concept models shown.
-The Lore-
Abd al-Hazir has brought us yet another class story, with a dark, demonic flavor to it. The Demon Hunters are essentially nomads, having lost all they knew and loved to the hells, they chose to pursue a life of vengeance above all else. They number in the hundreds, and choose to make their home in the Dreadlands. All demon hunters have an innate ability to resist the demonic taint present in the Dreadlands, allowing them to use demonic magics against their enemies while retaining their sanity.
But what could this mean? From the sounds of it, the Demon Hunters will use anything and everything at their disposal to take the fight to their sworn enemies. In one of the panels on the Demon Hunter, Jay Wilson briefly talked about using demonic organs as weaponry. Whether this was a definite "yes, you can craft with demonic organs" or not, is yet to be seen. However, in the release video the Demon Hunter is shown as using an arrow crafted from the tooth of a demon, thus, I personally believe we will be able to use demonic trophies to enhance our skills and items. I can expect this to take the form of special crafting recipes.
-The Skills-
Currently, the Demon Hunter has traps & gadgets, shadow magic, and various bow skills at her disposal. We've been shown several skills so far, and here they are.
Molten Arrow
The Demon Hunter shoots a crossbow bolt infused with flame which passes through enemies, and leaves behind a flaming wake, dealing damage to all enemies to try to cross it. Essentially, it's a fire wall that you can shoot.
Grenade
Seems to function similarily to the Witch Doctor's Skull of Flame. The video shows the Demon Hunter throwing out 3 small globes, which bounce briefly, then explode, dealing AOE to all nearby enemies. It was also shown to break a shield skeletons shield, which suggests AOE damage dealt from behind the shield can disarm them, giving this skill a spot as a sort of "combat utility" skill.
Bola
This skill allows the Demon Hunter to shoot a bola arrow, which wraps around whatever it hits. The enemies are not slowed however, but several seconds after being hit they exploded. AOE damage was dealt to everything nearby.
Vault
The obligatory movement skill. The Demon Hunter performs an acrobatic roll to reach new locations, or to escape from enemies. I can definitely see this skill being combined with Molten Arrow, allowing the Demon Hunter to quickly set up a wall, and retreat behind it before being in the line of fire.
Spike Trap
Taking a hint from the Assassin, the Demon Hunter sets up a trap that lies in wait for enemies. Upon being walked over, the trap opens up and enemies above it.
Fan of Knives
The Demon Hunter twirls in place, sending knives in all directions around her. AOE damage is dealt to all nearby enemies. This skill was shown being used with Vault, the Demon Hunter would roll into position, and release knives directly into a mob of enemies.
Entangling Shot
The Demon Hunter shoots out an arrow that bounces between several enemies, linking them with a blackish purplish line, slowing each down. The linking seemed to have to affect, though perhaps the slowing affect is made more serious based on how many enemies are linked to the same arrow?
-Tactical Considerations-
From the sounds of it, this character will take some planning to use effectively. With the theme of traps in mind, Demon Hunter players will no doubt benefit from careful planning and preparation. Jay Wilson himself said in one of the panels that this was the feel they were going for, as a bounty hunter they wanted the Demon Hunter to be prepared for battle. With the various skills she has at her disposal, she will be able to dictate the flow and pace of combat on her own terms.
Things to keep in mind, are the ways the skills functioned. If you watch the Bola video, you will notice the bola wrapping around a pillar, then exploding soon after. Tactics like this would allow the Demon Hunter to preemptively shoot a Bola, and run away while her enemies drew closer to the "trapped" environment. This skill may even be able to bring down walls after a delayed timer, allowing for more tactical use of the environment than other characters.
P.S. Real-world physics don't apply to fantasy worlds.
The devs also did seem a bit defensive of the dual crossbows in the Q&A where that one brave guy got up and asked what the deal was with dual crossbows cause they seemed kind of over the top. And Jay Wilson's response was that they thought they were cool and you either like them or you don't. I can react either way to this response. On one side I'm thinking it just confirms they're creating over the top stuff simply for the sake of being cool and thus appealing to the lowest common denominator. On the other side of the coin, I will acknowledge there were a few classes in D2 that just appealed to me in no way whatsoever. So some classes may inevitably be hit and miss for you because you ultimately have a preference for these kinds of things and you can't expect to be satisfied by every class. However, I can also sympathize for players who enjoy ranged combat more than casting and melee that the Demon Hunter was quite a risk in appealing to ranged players because she also has all the tech stuff with like the grenades and what not. So yeah it was a risk on the developer's part. They MUST'VE anticipated a lot of negative reaction to the class, but counted on enough people really enjoying the class. The fifth class also just suffers from being the last one announced. Expectations for the last class were probably higher than the rest and it seems so far to have suffered the most scrutiny next to say, the Witch Doctor.
The aesthetics of the new class don't really appeal to me either. I do kind of wish though I could just say that it's not really my preference, but some of the concepts of this class really do seem over-embellished as if they were just trying to deliver something as super cool as possible. But the idea of what's cool is subjective at best. Some might argue that fans of the Diablo franchise typically prefer a simpler style to things because while this is a fantasy fictional world, it's still never been as over the top as say, World of Warcraft.
I'm trying not to get hung up on this point too much because the answer to everything you addressed here is: magic.
This perhaps has yet to be seen. I mean, with the Assassin, every picture you saw of her in concept art and promotional art and even the menu screen of LoD had her with her dual claws. But how many people actually played with dual claws? Very little. She mostly became valued for her traps. I'd like to think that in Diablo 3 the classes aren't going to need a specific build in order to be very powerful. I think they're really trying to make classes customizable to the player's preference so you can be just as powerful as a cookie cutter build would be. This was something D2 lacked severely. If you weren't willing to conform to the most common builds of a character, you'd suffer a lot by not being nearly powerful enough and got made fun of by people on Battle.net. Like seriously, I'd be in a Baal run with my dual claw Sin and people would be like, "Brah, how much dmg does your light sentry do?" And I'd be like, "It's Death Sentry." And they'd be all, "What the fuck, brah? Fucking noob!" And I'd be like, "But I like Death Sentry cause it blows up corpses." And they'd be all, "Braaaaaahhhhhhh...."
This bothered me too and was something I wasn't willing to answer away with "magic". Even in a fictional world like this, there should be a general consensus of physics, including all that pesky gravity. And for that Demon Hunter to be clad in all that heavy looking armor, I don't see how she could be doing all those flips like that, especially in high heels. The answer to this is simply in my opinion: just don't make her do fucking flips and acrobatics. What's wrong with just running around and at the most, doing rolls? It's not like we'll be doing goddamn flips in the game, right? Well I hope not.
Their background story lacks depth, true. But it's still not as bad as the Wizard's.
Bullshit. Or at least physics should apply. You can't dismiss physics purely on the basis that this is a fictional place. I hate that argument where people think just cause it's not a real place that objects and gravity, etc shouldn't have to behave normally.
When someone is in a fight and falls down, or gets knocked down while wearing plate mail, 90 percent of the time, they die. Or if not in a fight, they will at least require someone to help them up. It's just stupid to think someone wearing such heavy gear can move that fast. I guess stupidity reigns. But in the end, I agree with Syanoq:
[sarcasm] Oh no, your wrong. It's fantasy, I can do anything! [/sarcasm]
Thanks for the well formatted and articulate reply. (I don't use forums very often, so please excuse any formatting mistakes. If there is a better way to use milti quotes in a reply, please let me know.)
The Trinity/Lord of the Rings example was meant to be a bit over-the-top. The whole point being that when you tell a story, in a movie, book, or video game, you have the responsibility to establish the rules of the world, and then stick to them. That's how you build the story, create expectations, tension, etc. Otherwise the audience is merely subject to random events at the whim of the storyteller, and in the end the audience is immediately disoriented and eventually doesn't care about the story.
I think your point about innovation vs. contrivance is perfectly stated, and it is my major concern with the Demon Hunter character. And I don't really care what they call the character (Archer, Amazon, Rogue, Demon Hunter, whatever), they need to establish what the character is and then commit to it. I definitely have concern that this lack of establishing "rules" and committing to them is going to be present in the other aspects of the game.
This response from the developers is a little concerning... it's one thing to make a character that some people like and some people don't. That's the nature of a multi-character/class game. But to make a character that doesn't fit the established rules of the world, or the rules for the character itself, is an entirely different issue. Their answer, to me, says that they know the Demon Hunter is half-assed and has serious problems in the execution and they don't want anyone to point it out. Again, I hope this is not a common trait in the rest of the game.
The entire aesthetics of the game are different than the previous games. I get it: it's a different game. I have no issue with the new direction they took in visual style. And I totally agree, the over-embellishment with the Demon Hunter is to the point of silliness. Why have the Demon Hunter look like a Gothic version of the Barbarian? The "bigger is better" approach never results in a good game. I say, why not differentiate Diablo's style from World of Warcraft or similar games? What's next, the over-sized anime swords that are 3 times the size of the character? Pick a style and stick to it.
I think this is a valid answer ONLY with more explanation. The "it's magic" answer in and of itself is a total copout and a huge missed opportunity. If she has two semi automatic crossbow pistols, tell us why. That's important. Did she design them? Does her clan of Demon Hunters design and make their own weapons to fight the baddies? Maybe that backstory could inform the basis of her other skills, like making other weapons, traps, new inventions, weapon upgrades, etc. Make this part of the backstory. And THAT is my main issue with the Demon Hunter: it feels like there are no rules for her character and so the attacks/skills feel kind of random, and the character feels flat or one dimensional. Don't just give a character special qualities that stick out like a sore thumb and then not explain them, or just say "it's magic." Give us the rules that the character operates under and then capitalize on them. That's the reason we want to play a game like Diablo: we understand the world, we like it, and want to immerse in it.
This it a totally fair point. Any guesses as to what the extent of the Demon Hunter character is all about is purely speculation. However, Blizzard chose to release the first introduction to the character. If the design/concept isn't complete, they should have withheld it until it was finished enough to release. My issues are not with the individual details of the character, rather my issue is that there is no cohesiveness between all the individual details.
Again, your point is a good one, and I think further illustrates my point: we haven't been presented with a coherent concept for this character, so we start to extrapolate details that aren't even there. "It's all magic." "maybe she won't do flips in the game, or maybe she will..." "She won't be confined to only using a crossbow." Etc. Etc.
Maybe true, but that doesn't make the Demon Hunter any more appealing. Nor does it excuse or explain the (presently) half-assed execution of the Demon Hunter character concept. And it appears the only explanation for the Demon Hunter's lack of depth is answers like "she's very mysterious," and " she comes from such a far out place, that no one really knows anything about her." Again: copout.
Zoobi, this is a total non-answer. In other words complete "bullshit" as Sianoq put it. I'm pretty sure that the developers have some kind of physics programmed into the game. It may be "fantasy world" physics, but it's still physics. On a more fundamental level, the game's physics are part of the overall "rules" or "laws" of the game's world. The whole idea of crating a fantasy world is that you establish how it works and then build the story around that. But you have to stick to it the whole way through. Otherwise you lack the parameters within which you tell the story.
Sorry for the rediculously long post. And thanks for the food-for-thought.
While I don't really doubt Blizzard's overall commitment to storytelling, I think we do have to acknowledge that their audience is now broader than ever. There are more demographics to consider. They'll use blanket tactics to pull in as many consumers as they can. That's just the reality of when any company like this goes big. They still tel a good story in my opinion, but not as good as they did back in the first Diablo game.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying and I'm having trouble thinking of how this shortcoming of the Demon Hunter is translating into other areas of the game. I mean, in the overall sense, Blizzard writers seem pretty concerned about the lore of their games. I think the Sin War Trilogy was written largely just to fill in plot holes and help make the plot to Diablo 3 make a bit more sense. They wanted certain things clarified before moving forward. Things that I believe we'll be seeing in the game and that are perhaps new to a lot of people cause they're not read the books or even gotten into the lore so much. By establishing rules, can you be more specific? I kind of sense what you're saying but I'm not entirely sure. Rules that the Demon Hunter operates by? Rules that dictate something about them?
Again I'm just not entirely sure what you mean by rules of the world. I agree the world must operate within the confines of preset rules, but are you referring to some specific ones or just generally speaking? Cause while I saw the Demon Hunter mildly raping the laws of physics in the trailer and not allowing myself to dismiss that part as magic, I'm not sure what else is blatantly being violated. Could you be referring to their origin story?
It does strike me as possibly a precedent for the future. So I totally agree with you.
I agree with you, and I'm up for the technology additions as well. Even the grenades. But I think they failed to fully incorporate those details into the design of the character.
And I'm certainly not suggesting that they make the character "more realistic," or to have us wait while the Demon Hunter reloads. I AM saying that the designers shouldn't gloss over these kinds of details. It's a missed opportunity to add depth to the character.
I agree with you, customization will allow players to decide what skills/weapons they want to use, and disregard the ones they don't. My point is that the "tech stuff" is currently without any explanation. And "it's 20 years later" is not sufficient and does nothing to add to/develop the character. The current Demon Hunter skills/attacks suggest this fact, they feel totally one dimensional. Kind of like many different animations for the same three general attacks.
I think you misinterpreted this portion of my post. I was not suggesting that the developers add fire arrow, I was listing all of the current attacks, one of them being a fire arrow (Molten Arrow, I think?). The current skills/attacks are all dangerously similar to one another and largely based on the crossbow/bow. it is a little one dimensional, and suggesting a possible lack of character development (along with the unexplained details, like the tech stuff.)
Anyway, thanks for the comment.
I just want an ambiguous class. You know, like a sandbox character that you can manipulate in a set of skills, like how the paladin was (THIS IS NOT A NO-PALADIN WHINE. I HATED THE PALADIN), but there would be separate trees for bow and sword with passive skills in the third tree.
Oh, who am I kidding, that's fucking boring.
same. But she looks cool nonetheless. GO BLIZZARD!
Thanks for another good post.
The use of "rules" is something used in filmmaking and writing. As a storyteller one has to establish rules for yourself as the writer/creator and for the world you are creating. Basically "rules" are the parameters of what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen in this created world, and why. As soon as you deviate from the rules of our natural world, the real world and our reality, you start to take the audience (in this case the player) into unknown territory. In order for the audience to understand what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen the writer/creator has to inform the audience.
In the world of Diablo we know that it is not uncommon to come across demons and mythological creatures. We know that the technology of Diablo is medieval and consists of swords and shields, etc. We know that magic exists in the Diablo world and that magic can be controlled by some characters (Wizard, etc.) and can be used as a weapon. We understand that characters are similar to human beings in our own reality (the real world) but that they can do incredible physical feats and use magic. The humans in the game can sustain massive physical damage. They can also heal faster than the humans in our real-world, using magic potions. Etc. Etc. The "rules" start with general broad-strokes (like establishing that the world has a "daytime" and a "nightime) and then the rules delve into very minute details, like the physical body-proportions of the characters, or how and why the Wizard's magic is different than the Which Doctor's magic.
Based on all these rules (and the many, many others) we can recognize Diablo as "Diablo" and not AD&D or Lord of the Rings. From these rules we can then have expectations for what we want to achieve as players, and what might happen around the next corner. These expectations are what the writer/creator uses to tell the story, play with our expectations, create tension, etc.
We also know what will not happen in Diablo, based on the established rules. No one expects an Apache helicopter to appear in the Diablo world, because there is no rule setting that precedent. So we, as players, don't even consider that possibility. We know that a "Wizard" doesn't use a battle ax, a Barbarian isn't going to wear robes, and that none of our characters will have narcolepsy or athsma.
As far as the "rules" regarding the Demon Hunter: what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen, and why? We do not have any precedent for this character class. We know what the "rules" are for a Wizard or a Barbarian, or a Monk, so they can get away with a little less explanation, based on previously established precedents. But what are the "rules" for a Demon Hunter? Can she cartwheel in plate armor? Is this some special trait, because not all the characters can defy physics in plate armor? If she's an elusive and agile assassin, does plate armor fit the character design? Do her crossbows reload automatically because they are advanced technology? How far does this technology extend? If the crossbows are magic, how far does the Demon Hunter's magic extend? How does the Demon Hunter's magic differ from the Wizard's magic? Is the Demon Hunter a regular person using highly trained physical skills as an advantage to fight evil (like Legolas) or is the Demon Hunter a person endowed with magic powers (like Gandolf)? Are the grenades similar to those in the real world (chemical/mechanical explosives) or are the grenades some kind of magical weapon? Etc. etc.
These questions seem tedious, but as the writer/creator, they have to be answerable questions. These answers define what the Demon Hunter is and it's what makes the Demon Hunter different than the other characters. My concern is that we have very few rules for what makes the Demon Hunter. And on top of that, the few rules we do have conflict with each other.
Ask the Diablo community questions about any of the other character classes, and you will probably receive many versions of the same answer. Try to do the same with the Demon Hunter and I bet you'll get different answers from everyone. Why? Because they gave us a character that doesn't have any precedent, and they didn't explain the rules.
The Demon Hunter isn't so bad...
Not when she looks like this..
Give her a chance! :blush:
they only added a few of the skills for the presentation to show roughly the core elements of the class gameplay. there's more to come. they're even thinking of some melee oriented abilities too.
No, what's bullshit is you dismissing physics when it comes to pretty much every other class based purely on the fact that it's magic, and then when it comes to a "plate wearing ninja" you get all huffy and puffy.
Remember last Blizzcon? the Monk looked kinda silly. He had only a few skills and many people were like omg hes too powerful and shit. This Blizzcon the Monk is fucking great. So give the developers some time to work on the DH more (even though they said its the first class they were sure about).
There not being much of a precedent though could just prove that Blizzard way being innovative. But I don't think the class is completely foreign in the Diablo universe. There are familiar elements about her.
Yeah, I mean even the Assassin in her strongest looking armor didn't appear as encumbered as the Demon Hunter does with her full armor. I don't think in the actual game she will be doing any flips though. But showing her do all that stuff kind of forces you to separate the Demon Hunter you see in the trailer from the Demon Hunter you'll see in the game.
Those are perfectly valid questions. In the D2 manual they go to great lengths to tell you about the source of each class' power. I think we may yet learn more about the Demon Hunter. I'd like to think she dabbles in some demonic magics as a source of her power which would make her more dangerous to regular people and to herself. This would make her a more interesting class to. And yeah, you just want to know how much of what she's doing is sheer physical ability through training alone, and what is being doled out in magic. Since the Barbarian is mostly physical and the Wizard is mostly magical, where along that spectrum does the Demon Hunter fall? Like the Witch Doctor's firebombs seem pretty magical in nature. So are the Demon Hunter's grenades sort of like that or more on the tech side?
Well like I said, I would definitely separate what you saw in the trailer from the actual in game Demon Hunter. I mean, she'll probably still be wearing high heels, unfortunately. But I doubt we'll see her flipping through the air like it's nothing at all.
I was just kind of disappointed in her origin story because other origin stories weren't so focused on how awesome their killing power was, but they were giving more background information. The Witch Doctor's background story is one of my favorites so far.
You're talking about the differences between a gameplay mechanic in game and something seen in the trailer. I'm not saying the Demon Hunter can't use magic to create some kind of thrust launching her into the air while wearing so much armor...I'm saying that in the trailer, I was under no impression she was using magic of any kind to pull those things off. I honestly felt like they wanted us to believe she could do those things all on her own just through physical training. And seriously, there are fucking light tracers on just swinging a sword in this game. Shouldn't I be seeing SOME kind of effect if she's taking off from the ground using magic. Anyway, as I've labored on this so much, my point is that I don't necessarily care if she's doing it all using magic or physicality. What I really wanted to point out was how stupid it all looked. Stupid and over the top. As if they were worried you wouldn't find her badass enough, they threw in all these gratuitous acrobatics just so we'd be like, "Oh I get it. She's the fucking badass ninja type. Wait...wasn't the Monk already that type?"
Yes, I am actually saying there's a difference between say, a Wizard who throws chain lighting around which is obviously total magic, and a Demon Hunter wearing high heels and clad in armor doing giant flips through the air which seems less akin to magic and more a physics rape. Basically, had I the impression she accomplished her acrobatics through magic, then yes I'd shut up about it. But I didn't get that impression at all based on what I saw in the trailer.
But this is fun for me. :confused: Don't you begrudge me the right to pick shit apart.
Well there's your problem right there. Just cause we're discussing some of the finer points on this class you're jumping to the conclusion that we need a logical explanation for EVERYTHING. Really, everything? You couldn't even say most things? Cause while that would be inaccurate even, it'd be far less than accusing us of wanting answers to everything. There's really only some things at most that I like to pick apart cause they don't make sense to me. Shoo!
To back you up a little and kind of repeat myself, this is fantasy. If they want wizards with full platemail that looks like it weights 1000 lbs, then they can do so as unrealistic as it is. If they want armor designed like a string bikini that has the armor level equivilent of 6ft thick plate steel, then they can do that too. It's all a matter of what fits in the lore and the story. If you look at the stories and additions from how Diablo began, one can see the progressiveness and change in it. That also includes the books written as well. Past that, odds are that the :starwars: will continue about this "new" class.
Another dead-on post. I think we're on the same page.
A few comments:
If you jump on youtube you can check out some extended DH gameplay, and I hate to say it, but she does in-fact do cartwheels and somersaults as a movement skill. Not as ridiculous as the acrobatics in the trailer, but pretty silly none the less.
I'm with you 100% on this one. The origin story video wasn't an origin story at all. It was just an action sequence, and a pretty silly one at that.
Zoobi, you need to go back and read the previous posts before you respond to the most recent one. Your response suggests that you either didn't read the previous posts or that you disregarded them. In either case it makes your comment irrelevant, as your point was already addressed in the previous posts. We have already addressed the "it's all just magic" and "physics don't apply in fantasy worlds" explanation.
Sionoq answered this one very well. And again, Zoobi, please read the previous posts. It's painful to retread back over ground we've already covered.
The developers went into detail about the magical abilities of the other classes and we have an understanding of what the other classes can and can't do. The developers didn't address magic AT ALL when it comes to the Demon Hunter. The assumption that "it's just magic, accept it" is going to make for a pretty shallow character. And on that note, accepting anything out of the ordinary in Diablo as "it's just magic" will make the Diablo world itself pretty shallow as well.
Can the developers just do anything they want and say "it's magic, just accept it"...? Yes, they can. Is that as interesting as coming up with a detailed backstory/explanation for events and actions? Not even close.
THE MAIN POINT
If they want to explain the DH's skills as magic and how the DH's magic/skills/attacks work and what the "rules" are for her character, then I'm totally on-board. As of right now, we have no information from the developers as to what the DH is all about. Because of this, her current skills/attacks seem really random and without any parameters. It's hard to have any anticipation for what this character will have at her disposal or if one want's to play her, because we have no idea what to expect. The current Lore, origin/introduction video, gameplay videos, armor designs, etc. are all over the place, and all lacking any cohesion or details.
To tell a good story (which is what a game is) you need to ask as many questions as you possibly can, and then you need to answer them with as much detail as possible. THAT is how you create depth.
This is straight from the demon hunter class page on the diablo 3 site. She uses demonic magic to do all that she does, which is evident from the gameplay videos if you've seen any of them.
You being ignorant to how the class works doesn't make my point irrelevant.
Not everything in the game needs to fit in a neat little box. Thinking outside the box is what creates good gameplay.
Well, to be honest my dear Siay, i didnt read any of your posts in this thread. Im sorry for that but they were just too long for me cuz i was kind of... high. Anyway what made me say "a logical explanation for everything" were posts like "how do you reload this and that. But yeah i m not accusing anyone, i cant even be bothered to check what my older post looked like.
Anyway, I'm continuing this discussion now in the official Demon Hunter thread.