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The ridiculousness of a plate wearing ninja in my FANTASY WORLD? BLASPHEMY!

P.S. Real-world physics don't apply to fantasy worlds.

Quote from ursus

I hate to admit that I'm pretty disappointed with the Demon Hunter. I've always played the range/archer character in past games, but this character does nothing for me. I was excited at first, but after seeing the Demon Hunter's gameplay I'm not impressed. She seems more like a SteamPunk character from another game, with the dual akimbo crossbow pistols and hand grenades. Too technology laden. Like putting Trinity (from The Matrix) in a Lord of The Rings movie: it just doesn't make sense. Why can't we just have a bow? Twin crossbows is "trying" way to hard. Is this a Diablo character or someone out of a mid '90s action movie?

I understand what you're saying to a point. I think your example of Trinity in LotR is a bit off the deep end, but I get your point. I do think there is a balance between innovation and contrivance. The developers want to try something new, but not go too crazy with it that it just seems forced and impractical in its own world. I think if they did more of a standard ranger type with mainly a bow, people would've been just as angry saying it was unoriginal. They would've said maybe it was stale as the Rogue or a glorified Amazon or any other complaint they could've thought of.

The devs also did seem a bit defensive of the dual crossbows in the Q&A where that one brave guy got up and asked what the deal was with dual crossbows cause they seemed kind of over the top. And Jay Wilson's response was that they thought they were cool and you either like them or you don't. I can react either way to this response. On one side I'm thinking it just confirms they're creating over the top stuff simply for the sake of being cool and thus appealing to the lowest common denominator. On the other side of the coin, I will acknowledge there were a few classes in D2 that just appealed to me in no way whatsoever. So some classes may inevitably be hit and miss for you because you ultimately have a preference for these kinds of things and you can't expect to be satisfied by every class. However, I can also sympathize for players who enjoy ranged combat more than casting and melee that the Demon Hunter was quite a risk in appealing to ranged players because she also has all the tech stuff with like the grenades and what not. So yeah it was a risk on the developer's part. They MUST'VE anticipated a lot of negative reaction to the class, but counted on enough people really enjoying the class. The fifth class also just suffers from being the last one announced. Expectations for the last class were probably higher than the rest and it seems so far to have suffered the most scrutiny next to say, the Witch Doctor.

Quote from ursus

Someone hit the nail on the head: Diablo version of Laura Croft. I might add that she seems like a female Diablo version of The Punisher (Frank Castle): a dark vigilante anti-hero, out for revenge against those that killed her family, using all manner of crossbows and explosives.

The aesthetics of the new class don't really appeal to me either. I do kind of wish though I could just say that it's not really my preference, but some of the concepts of this class really do seem over-embellished as if they were just trying to deliver something as super cool as possible. But the idea of what's cool is subjective at best. Some might argue that fans of the Diablo franchise typically prefer a simpler style to things because while this is a fantasy fictional world, it's still never been as over the top as say, World of Warcraft.

Quote from ursus

My problem with this is that it seems like all the other characters have a primary weapon/attack skill, which is supplemented with a vast array of other dynamic attacks that fit the character. The Demon Hunter has two crossbows (which in-and-of-itself is pretty silly, how do you reload two crossbows?) and with these two crossbows she can shoot single arrows, fiery arrows, explosive arrows, entangling arrows, a shotgun blast of... you got it, arrows, you can spin around and throw out lots of knives (which look like arrows), oh yeah and you can throw grenades and do cartwheels.

I'm trying not to get hung up on this point too much because the answer to everything you addressed here is: magic.

Quote from ursus

All the other characters have a well thought out and designed cohesion between their backstory, visual design, and all of their attacks and skills. The Demon Hunter is just a random assortment of technology based attacks almost entirely focused on the dual crossbows.

This perhaps has yet to be seen. I mean, with the Assassin, every picture you saw of her in concept art and promotional art and even the menu screen of LoD had her with her dual claws. But how many people actually played with dual claws? Very little. She mostly became valued for her traps. I'd like to think that in Diablo 3 the classes aren't going to need a specific build in order to be very powerful. I think they're really trying to make classes customizable to the player's preference so you can be just as powerful as a cookie cutter build would be. This was something D2 lacked severely. If you weren't willing to conform to the most common builds of a character, you'd suffer a lot by not being nearly powerful enough and got made fun of by people on Battle.net. Like seriously, I'd be in a Baal run with my dual claw Sin and people would be like, "Brah, how much dmg does your light sentry do?" And I'd be like, "It's Death Sentry." And they'd be all, "What the fuck, brah? Fucking noob!" And I'd be like, "But I like Death Sentry cause it blows up corpses." And they'd be all, "Braaaaaahhhhhhh...."

Quote from ursus

Even the currently proposed armor doesn't match the design of the character. Why does a fast-moving gun-wielding assassin have armor like a six ton Juggernaut? (Ninjas in plate mail.)

This bothered me too and was something I wasn't willing to answer away with "magic". Even in a fictional world like this, there should be a general consensus of physics, including all that pesky gravity. And for that Demon Hunter to be clad in all that heavy looking armor, I don't see how she could be doing all those flips like that, especially in high heels. The answer to this is simply in my opinion: just don't make her do fucking flips and acrobatics. What's wrong with just running around and at the most, doing rolls? It's not like we'll be doing goddamn flips in the game, right? Well I hope not.

Quote from ursus

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the designers over at Blizzard, that there is more to know about the Demon Hunter,. Hopefully we'll get some more information that will fill in the (huge) blanks and lack of depth. As of right now, the Demon Hunter is clearly the least dynamic character of the bunch.

Their background story lacks depth, true. But it's still not as bad as the Wizard's.

Quote from Zoobi

P.S. Real-world physics don't apply to fantasy worlds.

Bullshit. Or at least physics should apply. You can't dismiss physics purely on the basis that this is a fictional place. I hate that argument where people think just cause it's not a real place that objects and gravity, etc shouldn't have to behave normally.

Quote from Zoobi

P.S. Real-world physics don't apply to fantasy worlds.

Sorry, and with all due respect, that's simply stupid. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of believable magic, but a character (such as the Demon Hunter) running around in plate mail that at best weighs somewhere close to 80 pounds isn't going to be doing cartwheels. It's just not happening.

When someone is in a fight and falls down, or gets knocked down while wearing plate mail, 90 percent of the time, they die. Or if not in a fight, they will at least require someone to help them up. It's just stupid to think someone wearing such heavy gear can move that fast. I guess stupidity reigns. But in the end, I agree with Syanoq:

Quote from Siaynoq

I hate that argument where people think just cause it's not a real place that objects and gravity, etc shouldn't [or that there somehow magically exists an excuse to not] have to behave normally.

[sarcasm] Oh no, your wrong. It's fantasy, I can do anything! [/sarcasm]

Siaynoq,

Thanks for the well formatted and articulate reply. (I don't use forums very often, so please excuse any formatting mistakes. If there is a better way to use milti quotes in a reply, please let me know.)

Quote from Siaynoq

I understand what you're saying to a point. I think your example of Trinity in LotR is a bit off the deep end, but I get your point.

The Trinity/Lord of the Rings example was meant to be a bit over-the-top. The whole point being that when you tell a story, in a movie, book, or video game, you have the responsibility to establish the rules of the world, and then stick to them. That's how you build the story, create expectations, tension, etc. Otherwise the audience is merely subject to random events at the whim of the storyteller, and in the end the audience is immediately disoriented and eventually doesn't care about the story.

Quote from Siaynoq

I do think there is a balance between innovation and contrivance. The developers want to try something new, but not go too crazy with it that it just seems forced and impractical in its own world. I think if they did more of a standard ranger type with mainly a bow, people would've been just as angry saying it was unoriginal. They would've said maybe it was stale as the Rogue or a glorified Amazon or any other complaint they would've thought of.

I think your point about innovation vs. contrivance is perfectly stated, and it is my major concern with the Demon Hunter character. And I don't really care what they call the character (Archer, Amazon, Rogue, Demon Hunter, whatever), they need to establish what the character is and then commit to it. I definitely have concern that this lack of establishing "rules" and committing to them is going to be present in the other aspects of the game.

Quote from Siaynoq

The devs also did seem a bit defensive of the dual crossbows in the Q&A where that one brave guy got up and asked what the deal was with dual crossbows cause they seemed kind of over the top. And Jay Wilson's response was that they thought they were cool and you either like them or you don't. I can react either way to this response. On one side I'm thinking it just confirms they're creating over the top stuff simply for the sake of being cool and thus appealing to the lowest common denominator. On the other side of the coin, I will acknowledge there were a few classes in D2 that just appealed to me in no way whatsoever. So some classes may inevitably be hit and miss for you because you ultimately have a preference for these kinds of things and you can't expect to be satisfied by every class. However, I can also sympathize for players who enjoy ranged combat more than casting and melee that the Demon Hunter was quite a risk in appealing to ranged players because she also has all the tech stuff with like the grenades and what not. So yeah it was a risk on the developer's part. They MUST'VE anticipated a lot of negative reaction to the class, but counted on enough people really enjoying the class. The fifth class also just suffers from being the last one announced. Expectations for the last class were probably higher than the rest and it seems so far to have suffered the most scrutiny next to say, the Witch Doctor.

This response from the developers is a little concerning... it's one thing to make a character that some people like and some people don't. That's the nature of a multi-character/class game. But to make a character that doesn't fit the established rules of the world, or the rules for the character itself, is an entirely different issue. Their answer, to me, says that they know the Demon Hunter is half-assed and has serious problems in the execution and they don't want anyone to point it out. Again, I hope this is not a common trait in the rest of the game.

Quote from Siaynoq

The aesthetics of the new class don't really appeal to me either. I do kind of wish though I could just say that it's not really my preference, but some of the concepts of this class really do seem over-embellished as if they were just trying to deliver something as super cool as possible. But the idea of what's cool is subjective at best. Some might argue that fans of the Diablo franchise typically prefer a simpler style to things because while this is a fantasy fictional world, it's still never been as over the top as say, World of Warcraft.

The entire aesthetics of the game are different than the previous games. I get it: it's a different game. I have no issue with the new direction they took in visual style. And I totally agree, the over-embellishment with the Demon Hunter is to the point of silliness. Why have the Demon Hunter look like a Gothic version of the Barbarian? The "bigger is better" approach never results in a good game. I say, why not differentiate Diablo's style from World of Warcraft or similar games? What's next, the over-sized anime swords that are 3 times the size of the character? Pick a style and stick to it.

Quote from Siaynoq

I'm trying not to get hung up on this point too much because the answer to everything you addressed here is: magic.

I think this is a valid answer ONLY with more explanation. The "it's magic" answer in and of itself is a total copout and a huge missed opportunity. If she has two semi automatic crossbow pistols, tell us why. That's important. Did she design them? Does her clan of Demon Hunters design and make their own weapons to fight the baddies? Maybe that backstory could inform the basis of her other skills, like making other weapons, traps, new inventions, weapon upgrades, etc. Make this part of the backstory. And THAT is my main issue with the Demon Hunter: it feels like there are no rules for her character and so the attacks/skills feel kind of random, and the character feels flat or one dimensional. Don't just give a character special qualities that stick out like a sore thumb and then not explain them, or just say "it's magic." Give us the rules that the character operates under and then capitalize on them. That's the reason we want to play a game like Diablo: we understand the world, we like it, and want to immerse in it.

Quote from ursus

All the other characters have a well thought out and designed cohesion between their backstory, visual design, and all of their attacks and skills. The Demon Hunter is just a random assortment of technology based attacks almost entirely focused on the dual crossbows.

Quote from Siaynoq

This perhaps has yet to be seen.

This it a totally fair point. Any guesses as to what the extent of the Demon Hunter character is all about is purely speculation. However, Blizzard chose to release the first introduction to the character. If the design/concept isn't complete, they should have withheld it until it was finished enough to release. My issues are not with the individual details of the character, rather my issue is that there is no cohesiveness between all the individual details.

Quote from ursus

Even the currently proposed armor doesn't match the design of the character. Why does a fast-moving gun-wielding assassin have armor like a six ton Juggernaut? (Ninjas in plate mail.)

Quote from Siaynoq

This bothered me too and was something I wasn't willing to answer away with "magic". Even in a fictional world like this, there should be a general consensus of physics, including all that pesky gravity. And for that Demon Hunter to be clad in all that heavy looking armor, I don't see how she could be doing all those flips like that, especially in high heels. The answer to this is simply in my opinion: just don't make her do fucking flips and acrobatics. What's wrong with just running around and at the most, doing rolls? It's not like we'll be doing goddamn flips in the game, right? Well I hope not.

Again, your point is a good one, and I think further illustrates my point: we haven't been presented with a coherent concept for this character, so we start to extrapolate details that aren't even there. "It's all magic." "maybe she won't do flips in the game, or maybe she will..." "She won't be confined to only using a crossbow." Etc. Etc.

Quote from ursus

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the designers over at Blizzard, that there is more to know about the Demon Hunter,. Hopefully we'll get some more information that will fill in the (huge) blanks and lack of depth. As of right now, the Demon Hunter is clearly the least dynamic character of the bunch.

Quote from Siaynoq

Their background story lacks depth, true. But it's still not as bad as the Wizard's.

Maybe true, but that doesn't make the Demon Hunter any more appealing. Nor does it excuse or explain the (presently) half-assed execution of the Demon Hunter character concept. And it appears the only explanation for the Demon Hunter's lack of depth is answers like "she's very mysterious," and " she comes from such a far out place, that no one really knows anything about her." Again: copout.

Quote from Zoobi

P.S. Real-world physics don't apply to fantasy worlds.

Zoobi, this is a total non-answer. In other words complete "bullshit" as Sianoq put it. I'm pretty sure that the developers have some kind of physics programmed into the game. It may be "fantasy world" physics, but it's still physics. On a more fundamental level, the game's physics are part of the overall "rules" or "laws" of the game's world. The whole idea of crating a fantasy world is that you establish how it works and then build the story around that. But you have to stick to it the whole way through. Otherwise you lack the parameters within which you tell the story.

Sorry for the rediculously long post. And thanks for the food-for-thought.

Demon Hunter is meh. Maybe she will be good for pvp but that's all I see in her. Female Barb for me it is .

Quote from ursus

Siaynoq,

Thanks for the well formatted and articulate reply. (I don't use forums very often, so please excuse any formatting mistakes. If there is a better way to use milti quotes in a reply, please let me know.)

I usually start with copying and pasting the first part of your quote there at the top. So I can just reuse it throughout the post and manually type the quote notation at the end. I'd show you as an example but then the forum would think I was quoting you and it gets all messy. So anyway...

Quote from ursus

The Trinity/Lord of the Rings example was meant to be a bit over-the-top. The whole point being that when you tell a story, in a movie, book, or video game, you have the responsibility to establish the rules of the world, and then stick to them. That's how you build the story, create expectations, tension, etc. Otherwise the audience is merely subject to random events at the whim of the storyteller, and in the end the audience is immediately disoriented and eventually doesn't care about the story.

While I don't really doubt Blizzard's overall commitment to storytelling, I think we do have to acknowledge that their audience is now broader than ever. There are more demographics to consider. They'll use blanket tactics to pull in as many consumers as they can. That's just the reality of when any company like this goes big. They still tel a good story in my opinion, but not as good as they did back in the first Diablo game.

Quote from ursus

I think your point about innovation vs. contrivance is perfectly stated, and it is my major concern with the Demon Hunter character. And I don't really care what they call the character (Archer, Amazon, Rogue, Demon Hunter, whatever), they need to establish what the character is and then commit to it. I definitely have concern that this lack of establishing "rules" and committing to them is going to be present in the other aspects of the game.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying and I'm having trouble thinking of how this shortcoming of the Demon Hunter is translating into other areas of the game. I mean, in the overall sense, Blizzard writers seem pretty concerned about the lore of their games. I think the Sin War Trilogy was written largely just to fill in plot holes and help make the plot to Diablo 3 make a bit more sense. They wanted certain things clarified before moving forward. Things that I believe we'll be seeing in the game and that are perhaps new to a lot of people cause they're not read the books or even gotten into the lore so much. By establishing rules, can you be more specific? I kind of sense what you're saying but I'm not entirely sure. Rules that the Demon Hunter operates by? Rules that dictate something about them?

Quote from ursus

This response from the developers is a little concerning... it's one thing to make a character that some people like and some people don't. That's the nature of a multi-character/class game. But to make a character that doesn't fit the established rules of the world, or the rules for the character itself, is an entirely different issue. Their answer, to me, says that they know the Demon Hunter is half-assed and has serious problems in the execution and they don't want anyone to point it out. Again, I hope this is not a common trait in the rest of the game.

Again I'm just not entirely sure what you mean by rules of the world. I agree the world must operate within the confines of preset rules, but are you referring to some specific ones or just generally speaking? Cause while I saw the Demon Hunter mildly raping the laws of physics in the trailer and not allowing myself to dismiss that part as magic, I'm not sure what else is blatantly being violated. Could you be referring to their origin story?

Quote from ursus

The entire aesthetics of the game are different than the previous games. I get it: it's a different game. I have no issue with the new direction they took in visual style. And I totally agree, the over-embellishment with the Demon Hunter is to the point of silliness. Why have the Demon Hunter look like a Gothic version of the Barbarian? The "bigger is better" approach never results in a good game. I say, why not differentiate Diablo's style from World of Warcraft or similar games? What's next, the over-sized anime swords that are 3 times the size of the character? Pick a style and stick to it.

It does strike me as possibly a precedent for the future. So I totally agree with you.

Hey Pryda,

I agree with you, and I'm up for the technology additions as well. Even the grenades. But I think they failed to fully incorporate those details into the design of the character.

And I'm certainly not suggesting that they make the character "more realistic," or to have us wait while the Demon Hunter reloads. I AM saying that the designers shouldn't gloss over these kinds of details. It's a missed opportunity to add depth to the character.

I agree with you, customization will allow players to decide what skills/weapons they want to use, and disregard the ones they don't. My point is that the "tech stuff" is currently without any explanation. And "it's 20 years later" is not sufficient and does nothing to add to/develop the character. The current Demon Hunter skills/attacks suggest this fact, they feel totally one dimensional. Kind of like many different animations for the same three general attacks.

Quote from Pryda

As for the second part of the quote - so youre saying we should settle for more realistic stuff like, simple fire arrow and standing back and taking the time to reload? How fun is that?

I think you misinterpreted this portion of my post. I was not suggesting that the developers add fire arrow, I was listing all of the current attacks, one of them being a fire arrow (Molten Arrow, I think?). The current skills/attacks are all dangerously similar to one another and largely based on the crossbow/bow. it is a little one dimensional, and suggesting a possible lack of character development (along with the unexplained details, like the tech stuff.)

Anyway, thanks for the comment.

I hope I can use swords with the demon hunter... or I'm definitely going to be pissed.

I just want an ambiguous class. You know, like a sandbox character that you can manipulate in a set of skills, like how the paladin was (THIS IS NOT A NO-PALADIN WHINE. I HATED THE PALADIN), but there would be separate trees for bow and sword with passive skills in the third tree.

Oh, who am I kidding, that's fucking boring.

I hope I can use swords with the demon hunter... or I'm definitely going to be pissed

same. But she looks cool nonetheless. GO BLIZZARD!

Hey Siannoq,

Thanks for another good post.

Quote from Siaynoq

Again I'm just not entirely sure what you mean by rules of the world.

The use of "rules" is something used in filmmaking and writing. As a storyteller one has to establish rules for yourself as the writer/creator and for the world you are creating. Basically "rules" are the parameters of what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen in this created world, and why. As soon as you deviate from the rules of our natural world, the real world and our reality, you start to take the audience (in this case the player) into unknown territory. In order for the audience to understand what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen the writer/creator has to inform the audience.

In the world of Diablo we know that it is not uncommon to come across demons and mythological creatures. We know that the technology of Diablo is medieval and consists of swords and shields, etc. We know that magic exists in the Diablo world and that magic can be controlled by some characters (Wizard, etc.) and can be used as a weapon. We understand that characters are similar to human beings in our own reality (the real world) but that they can do incredible physical feats and use magic. The humans in the game can sustain massive physical damage. They can also heal faster than the humans in our real-world, using magic potions. Etc. Etc. The "rules" start with general broad-strokes (like establishing that the world has a "daytime" and a "nightime) and then the rules delve into very minute details, like the physical body-proportions of the characters, or how and why the Wizard's magic is different than the Which Doctor's magic.

Based on all these rules (and the many, many others) we can recognize Diablo as "Diablo" and not AD&D or Lord of the Rings. From these rules we can then have expectations for what we want to achieve as players, and what might happen around the next corner. These expectations are what the writer/creator uses to tell the story, play with our expectations, create tension, etc.

We also know what will not happen in Diablo, based on the established rules. No one expects an Apache helicopter to appear in the Diablo world, because there is no rule setting that precedent. So we, as players, don't even consider that possibility. We know that a "Wizard" doesn't use a battle ax, a Barbarian isn't going to wear robes, and that none of our characters will have narcolepsy or athsma.

As far as the "rules" regarding the Demon Hunter: what CAN happen and what CANNOT happen, and why? We do not have any precedent for this character class. We know what the "rules" are for a Wizard or a Barbarian, or a Monk, so they can get away with a little less explanation, based on previously established precedents. But what are the "rules" for a Demon Hunter? Can she cartwheel in plate armor? Is this some special trait, because not all the characters can defy physics in plate armor? If she's an elusive and agile assassin, does plate armor fit the character design? Do her crossbows reload automatically because they are advanced technology? How far does this technology extend? If the crossbows are magic, how far does the Demon Hunter's magic extend? How does the Demon Hunter's magic differ from the Wizard's magic? Is the Demon Hunter a regular person using highly trained physical skills as an advantage to fight evil (like Legolas) or is the Demon Hunter a person endowed with magic powers (like Gandolf)? Are the grenades similar to those in the real world (chemical/mechanical explosives) or are the grenades some kind of magical weapon? Etc. etc.

These questions seem tedious, but as the writer/creator, they have to be answerable questions. These answers define what the Demon Hunter is and it's what makes the Demon Hunter different than the other characters. My concern is that we have very few rules for what makes the Demon Hunter. And on top of that, the few rules we do have conflict with each other.

Ask the Diablo community questions about any of the other character classes, and you will probably receive many versions of the same answer. Try to do the same with the Demon Hunter and I bet you'll get different answers from everyone. Why? Because they gave us a character that doesn't have any precedent, and they didn't explain the rules.

Aww come on....
The Demon Hunter isn't so bad...
Not when she looks like this..



Give her a chance! :blush:

on the Demon Hunter skills part (where some mention they seem "one dimensional":
they only added a few of the skills for the presentation to show roughly the core elements of the class gameplay. there's more to come. they're even thinking of some melee oriented abilities too.

I guess we should take away all the magical aspects of the game though. I mean, a person can't really stomp on the ground and cause a shockwave that rips the earth in two. That's something physics alone would say you can't do. You can't have one and not have the other. It's a magical world after all, just ACCEPT that she can do cartwheels in plate.

Bullshit. Or at least physics should apply. You can't dismiss physics purely on the basis that this is a fictional place. I hate that argument where people think just cause it's not a real place that objects and gravity, etc shouldn't have to behave normally.

No, what's bullshit is you dismissing physics when it comes to pretty much every other class based purely on the fact that it's magic, and then when it comes to a "plate wearing ninja" you get all huffy and puffy.

People are trying to find a logical explanation for everything in sanctuary, based off of our world. Thats not the right thing to do. Since when do we need a logical explanation for everthing in Diablo games? "How do you reload two crossbows?" Really? Did the Amazon in D2 reload the crossbow after each shot? I think she does not. And besides im sure the DH will be able to choose from many weapons. They said Xbows, bows, short swords and daggers if im not mistaken.

Remember last Blizzcon? the Monk looked kinda silly. He had only a few skills and many people were like omg hes too powerful and shit. This Blizzcon the Monk is fucking great. So give the developers some time to work on the DH more (even though they said its the first class they were sure about).

Quote from ursus

These expectations are what the writer/creator uses to tell the story, play with our expectations, create tension, etc.

I think you hit on something good here. Diablo 3 definitely lacks tension. And in the DH trailer, the way she dispatches her enemies so easily, there really is no tension. You never feel at any moment that she's in any real danger.

Quote from ursus

We do not have any precedent for this character class.

There not being much of a precedent though could just prove that Blizzard way being innovative. But I don't think the class is completely foreign in the Diablo universe. There are familiar elements about her.

Quote from ursus

We know what the "rules" are for a Wizard or a Barbarian, or a Monk, so they can get away with a little less explanation, based on previously established precedents. But what are the "rules" for a Demon Hunter? Can she cartwheel in plate armor? Is this some special trait, because not all the characters can defy physics in plate armor? If she's an elusive and agile assassin, does plate armor fit the character design?

Yeah, I mean even the Assassin in her strongest looking armor didn't appear as encumbered as the Demon Hunter does with her full armor. I don't think in the actual game she will be doing any flips though. But showing her do all that stuff kind of forces you to separate the Demon Hunter you see in the trailer from the Demon Hunter you'll see in the game.

Quote from ursus

Do her crossbows reload automatically because they are advanced technology? How far does this technology extend? If the crossbows are magic, how far does the Demon Hunter's magic extend? How does the Demon Hunter's magic differ from the Wizard's magic? Is the Demon Hunter a regular person using highly trained physical skills as an advantage to fight evil (like Legolas) or is the Demon Hunter a person endowed with magic powers (like Gandolf)? Are the grenades similar to those in the real world (chemical/mechanical explosives) or are the grenades some kind of magical weapon? Etc. etc.

Those are perfectly valid questions. In the D2 manual they go to great lengths to tell you about the source of each class' power. I think we may yet learn more about the Demon Hunter. I'd like to think she dabbles in some demonic magics as a source of her power which would make her more dangerous to regular people and to herself. This would make her a more interesting class to. And yeah, you just want to know how much of what she's doing is sheer physical ability through training alone, and what is being doled out in magic. Since the Barbarian is mostly physical and the Wizard is mostly magical, where along that spectrum does the Demon Hunter fall? Like the Witch Doctor's firebombs seem pretty magical in nature. So are the Demon Hunter's grenades sort of like that or more on the tech side?

Quote from ursus

These questions seem tedious, but as the writer/creator, they have to be answerable questions. These answers define what the Demon Hunter is and it's what makes the Demon Hunter different than the other characters. My concern is that we have very few rules for what makes the Demon Hunter. And on top of that, the few rules we do have conflict with each other.

Well like I said, I would definitely separate what you saw in the trailer from the actual in game Demon Hunter. I mean, she'll probably still be wearing high heels, unfortunately. But I doubt we'll see her flipping through the air like it's nothing at all.

Quote from ursus

Ask the Diablo community questions about any of the other character classes, and you will probably receive many versions of the same answer. Try to do the same with the Demon Hunter and I bet you'll get different answers from everyone. Why? Because they gave us a character that doesn't have any precedent, and they didn't explain the rules.

I was just kind of disappointed in her origin story because other origin stories weren't so focused on how awesome their killing power was, but they were giving more background information. The Witch Doctor's background story is one of my favorites so far.

Quote from Zoobi

I guess we should take away all the magical aspects of the game though. I mean, a person can't really stomp on the ground and cause a shockwave that rips the earth in two. That's something physics alone would say you can't do. You can't have one and not have the other. It's a magical world after all, just ACCEPT that she can do cartwheels in plate.

You're talking about the differences between a gameplay mechanic in game and something seen in the trailer. I'm not saying the Demon Hunter can't use magic to create some kind of thrust launching her into the air while wearing so much armor...I'm saying that in the trailer, I was under no impression she was using magic of any kind to pull those things off. I honestly felt like they wanted us to believe she could do those things all on her own just through physical training. And seriously, there are fucking light tracers on just swinging a sword in this game. Shouldn't I be seeing SOME kind of effect if she's taking off from the ground using magic. Anyway, as I've labored on this so much, my point is that I don't necessarily care if she's doing it all using magic or physicality. What I really wanted to point out was how stupid it all looked. Stupid and over the top. As if they were worried you wouldn't find her badass enough, they threw in all these gratuitous acrobatics just so we'd be like, "Oh I get it. She's the fucking badass ninja type. Wait...wasn't the Monk already that type?"

Quote from Zoobi

No, what's bullshit is you dismissing physics when it comes to pretty much every other class based purely on the fact that it's magic, and then when it comes to a "plate wearing ninja" you get all huffy and puffy.

Yes, I am actually saying there's a difference between say, a Wizard who throws chain lighting around which is obviously total magic, and a Demon Hunter wearing high heels and clad in armor doing giant flips through the air which seems less akin to magic and more a physics rape. Basically, had I the impression she accomplished her acrobatics through magic, then yes I'd shut up about it. But I didn't get that impression at all based on what I saw in the trailer.

Quote from Jamoose

People are trying to find a logical explanation for everything in sanctuary, based off of our world. Thats not the right thing to do.

But this is fun for me. :confused: Don't you begrudge me the right to pick shit apart.

Quote from Jamoose

Since when do we need a logical explanation for everthing in Diablo games?

Well there's your problem right there. Just cause we're discussing some of the finer points on this class you're jumping to the conclusion that we need a logical explanation for EVERYTHING. Really, everything? You couldn't even say most things? Cause while that would be inaccurate even, it'd be far less than accusing us of wanting answers to everything. There's really only some things at most that I like to pick apart cause they don't make sense to me. Shoo!

Quote from Zoobi

I guess we should take away all the magical aspects of the game though. I mean, a person can't really stomp on the ground and cause a shockwave that rips the earth in two. That's something physics alone would say you can't do. You can't have one and not have the other. It's a magical world after all, just ACCEPT that she can do cartwheels in plate.

Bullshit. Or at least physics should apply. You can't dismiss physics purely on the basis that this is a fictional place. I hate that argument where people think just cause it's not a real place that objects and gravity, etc shouldn't have to behave normally.

No, what's bullshit is you dismissing physics when it comes to pretty much every other class based purely on the fact that it's magic, and then when it comes to a "plate wearing ninja" you get all huffy and puffy.

To back you up a little and kind of repeat myself, this is fantasy. If they want wizards with full platemail that looks like it weights 1000 lbs, then they can do so as unrealistic as it is. If they want armor designed like a string bikini that has the armor level equivilent of 6ft thick plate steel, then they can do that too. It's all a matter of what fits in the lore and the story. If you look at the stories and additions from how Diablo began, one can see the progressiveness and change in it. That also includes the books written as well. Past that, odds are that the :starwars: will continue about this "new" class.

Hey Sianoq,

Another dead-on post. I think we're on the same page.

A few comments:

Quote from Siaynoq

I don't think in the actual game she will be doing any flips though. But showing her do all that stuff kind of forces you to separate the Demon Hunter you see in the trailer from the Demon Hunter you'll see in the game.

If you jump on youtube you can check out some extended DH gameplay, and I hate to say it, but she does in-fact do cartwheels and somersaults as a movement skill. Not as ridiculous as the acrobatics in the trailer, but pretty silly none the less.

Quote from Siaynoq

I was just kind of disappointed in her origin story because other origin stories weren't so focused on how awesome their killing power was, but they were giving more background information. The Witch Doctor's background story is one of my favorites so far.

I'm with you 100% on this one. The origin story video wasn't an origin story at all. It was just an action sequence, and a pretty silly one at that.

Quote from Zoobi

I guess we should take away all the magical aspects of the game though. I mean, a person can't really stomp on the ground and cause a shockwave that rips the earth in two. That's something physics alone would say you can't do. You can't have one and not have the other. It's a magical world after all, just ACCEPT that she can do cartwheels in plate.

Zoobi, you need to go back and read the previous posts before you respond to the most recent one. Your response suggests that you either didn't read the previous posts or that you disregarded them. In either case it makes your comment irrelevant, as your point was already addressed in the previous posts. We have already addressed the "it's all just magic" and "physics don't apply in fantasy worlds" explanation.

Quote from Zoobi

No, what's bullshit is you dismissing physics when it comes to pretty much every other class based purely on the fact that it's magic, and then when it comes to a "plate wearing ninja" you get all huffy and puffy.

Sionoq answered this one very well. And again, Zoobi, please read the previous posts. It's painful to retread back over ground we've already covered.

The developers went into detail about the magical abilities of the other classes and we have an understanding of what the other classes can and can't do. The developers didn't address magic AT ALL when it comes to the Demon Hunter. The assumption that "it's just magic, accept it" is going to make for a pretty shallow character. And on that note, accepting anything out of the ordinary in Diablo as "it's just magic" will make the Diablo world itself pretty shallow as well.

Can the developers just do anything they want and say "it's magic, just accept it"...? Yes, they can. Is that as interesting as coming up with a detailed backstory/explanation for events and actions? Not even close.

THE MAIN POINT

If they want to explain the DH's skills as magic and how the DH's magic/skills/attacks work and what the "rules" are for her character, then I'm totally on-board. As of right now, we have no information from the developers as to what the DH is all about. Because of this, her current skills/attacks seem really random and without any parameters. It's hard to have any anticipation for what this character will have at her disposal or if one want's to play her, because we have no idea what to expect. The current Lore, origin/introduction video, gameplay videos, armor designs, etc. are all over the place, and all lacking any cohesion or details.

To tell a good story (which is what a game is) you need to ask as many questions as you possibly can, and then you need to answer them with as much detail as possible. THAT is how you create depth.

They hone this power, for their resistance to this taint enables them to use the demons' power as a weapon.

This is straight from the demon hunter class page on the diablo 3 site. She uses demonic magic to do all that she does, which is evident from the gameplay videos if you've seen any of them.

You being ignorant to how the class works doesn't make my point irrelevant.

Not everything in the game needs to fit in a neat little box. Thinking outside the box is what creates good gameplay.

Quote from Siaynoq

Well there's your problem right there. Just cause we're discussing some of the finer points on this class you're jumping to the conclusion that we need a logical explanation for EVERYTHING. Really, everything? You couldn't even say most things? Cause while that would be inaccurate even, it'd be far less than accusing us of wanting answers to everything. There's really only some things at most that I like to pick apart cause they don't make sense to me. Shoo!

Well, to be honest my dear Siay, i didnt read any of your posts in this thread. Im sorry for that but they were just too long for me cuz i was kind of... high. Anyway what made me say "a logical explanation for everything" were posts like "how do you reload this and that. But yeah i m not accusing anyone, i cant even be bothered to check what my older post looked like.

Well I'd never expect you to read much when you're....high.

Anyway, I'm continuing this discussion now in the official Demon Hunter thread.