So the arguments here are getting heated, quite a few of them about unconfirmed details. All we know at this point is that unattuned runes are in the game in some form. We have no clue whatsoever what form they will take. Jay talked about an idea a few months ago for a potential system, but that's it.
The system that Jay described worked thusly:
1. Runes drop unattuned and colorless.
2. When socketed, runes assume a random color and may also have random attributes.
3. Socketed runes become attached to the skill they were put into.
4. There may be a mechanic to restore a rune to its unattuned state, perhaps through the mystic or jeweler.
Here's my problem with the proposed system: yes, Diablo is a game with random item drops. But what has never been random is your character build. You could put skill points and attribute points wherever you wanted. Runes are a vital part of a character's build now. I think it's very important that players be able to choose how they want to play their character without a randomness factor to it.
Random runes are simply not the same as random gear. This is more akin to choosing to place a skill point in Diablo 2 but having the game randomly pick a skill to put it in.
It just seems too frustrating as is. I'm fine with the rest of the system except for not knowing the color. If I get crap affixes, that's fine (that's a gearing/stat randomization). But having randomness prevent me from using my skills the way I want to use them? That's not fun at all.
You're ignoring the fact that it appears that regular runestones will drop (as they are items on the site)
You can customise your skills as much as you want with coloured runes, but, once you have a specific build made with level 7 runes, there's nothing you can possibly do to improve them......unless you introduce unattuned runes! Now, if you get a level 7 unattuned rune, it might become the type you want, AND give you a bonus. If it's not the type of rune you want, depending on how big the stat bonuses are, it could make you want to change your build because the random bonus could be something really beneficial.
Just because they are in the item tab does not necessarily mean they drop. They could be there just because they are "crafted" when attuned. Although, I would be ok with this system, assuming it works as you described.
Since when did it become 4/6 per hour, in the OP you said 4 per hour. Nonetheless, both figures are purely speculative.
This was using Rank6 btw.
It is not speculative at all.
The only 2 variables are drop rate, and avg play time.
And since you gave me a time frame of 2 months, that means that it will take you ~27.5 gems/hour playing 4 hours per day. This # is a fact. However, the ratio of the # that drops to the # that you pickup is speculative, but given such a short time frame you are certainly going to buy the vast majority.
The drop rate I chose was 4 gems per hour. That is 4 random gems per hour though.
There are 6 types of gems, but if you are only interested in one particular gem, then the drop rate is only ONE SIXTH of the original, 4/6 gem/hour
3.6 years + level&gear time = ONE toon to get 1*Rank14 gem.
Time is relative, true, but ~4 years is a sizable amount of time for humans.
And 4 years is larger than the lifespan of most games.
And ~11 years is absurd for both.
Ohh and it is 9 YEARS at Rank6 to get all 10 of your gems to Rank14.
Rank5 & Rank6 simply are not viable choices.
You could do that quest 1 time, and as I said quests that yield gems can be factored into the gem acquire rate.
A quest you could do 1 time is basically irrelevant though.
Yes but like I said, you could be way off in terms of speed of looting these gems. If you were intent on getting some gem to the highest level, you could probably do it in a couple of months at that rate of farming. Every item you acquire can be sold or traded to get more of those gems.
It just reminds me of how my girlfriend asks me to download a movie, and then asks how long it'll take before I've even started downloading it. I tell her it really depends on the speed of the download, but she insists on getting an approximate answer to the nearest hour...
A couple months huh....Well lets see,
Specific Gem drop Rate = 4/6 per hour
Gem buy Rate = x
3^(14-6)/(4/6+x)/4 = 60 days
Solve for x, x=26.7 gems bought per hour.
Which is 6400 gems bought in 2 months. 640 stacks is a pretty sizable amount in 2 months, but of course it can be done. But again, like i said in the OP, this math is an estimate for the avg gamer trying to get Rank14gems, not richy rich buying them all.
Also, like I said, grinding to Rank14 quickly is a horrible idea char wise.
You are way better off with lots of lower level gems.
My DL speed is normally about 190 kb/s, so I can give a pretty good estimate.
Important to note that a next level runes are not huge upgrades. For example Magic Missile - Indigo rune, you get 1 additional missile per rune level to a max of 8 missiles at level 7.
The difference between a level 6 to level 7 rune is not that huge, You would almost rather find a better set/unique weapon in Inferno than find a level 7 rune. Don't get me wrong, we all want to have level 7 runes ideally,and they are upgrades, but its more for completeness and boasting and our min/max obsession then because of its raw power.
Whether they are Rank6 or Rank7, you will still have to stash tons of runes if you want to play around with specs at all.
The biggest problem I have with the idea, is just where the heck do all those "failed" runes go? [...]
There are millions and millions of different combinations that exist for every character, and changing skills depending on the situation, and creating new builds was a huge part of the appeal for me in D3. So, I am a little confused by this current idea.
As you describe it, you're damn right! The chances of getting a rune to attune perfectly to your build is EXTREMELY unlikely. You'll have an entire stash full of attuned runes that don't fit your particular build.
But come along with me on a little voyage.. imagine a world where you could put those runes on the auction house. Think about those thousands.. perhaps MILLIONS of D3 player with weird-ass, unique builds (according to you) looking for the PERFECT rune.. how will they EVER find it? Unless millions of players are putting weird-ass runes on the auction house.... Most players will not want most runes. But there will be at least one player with a build philosophy that will get a huge boner from that crappy magic missile rune you find useless.
At the end of the day, it's common sense. You will be able to NOT ONLY un-socket un-wanted attuned runes, but you will be able to sell them on the auction house.
Even if they allow the mystic to unattune runes, it does nothing to solve this inventory problem.
Good point. That's why any rational developer would agree attuned runes should be sale-able on the auction house.
If you have 1 particular build you going after, there is an 80% chance that you will get the wrong rune. And, if you get the wrong rune guess what? You got an 80% chance to get the wrong rune again, and again, and again....There is a possibility that you will get the wrong run 30x. Duplicates are not only possible, they are extremely likely. So having the ability to sell and/or unattune a rune is 100% essential.
However, that really has nothing to do with my post. My concern had to do with trying alternate builds, and being required to stash up to 125 runes. I should not have to fill my entire shared stash with runes to try different spec on ONE toon!!!
And of course, I plan on playing every class. Where am I going to put up to ~600 runes?!?!
The problem is that if you consider Rank5 & Rank6, the time frames become ridiculous.
That's purely relative. I'm sure many people will consider > 1 week to be a ridiculous amount of time spent to purely farm gems.
Also, we aren't even sure yet of how fast we can gather gems. The only logical comparisons we can make is that to the drop rate of gems in D2, but things could easily have changed. Also, we're not even considering such random events that could be like the forge quest in D2 where some pretty sweet gems and runes dropped.
3.6 years + level&gear time = ONE toon to get 1*Rank14 gem.
Time is relative, true, but ~4 years is a sizable amount of time for humans.
And 4 years is larger than the lifespan of most games.
And ~11 years is absurd for both.
Ohh and it is 9 YEARS at Rank6 to get all 10 of your gems to Rank14.
Rank5 & Rank6 simply are not viable choices.
You could do that quest 1 time, and as I said quests that yield gems can be factored into the gem acquire rate.
A quest you could do 1 time is basically irrelevant though.
Also, why are you assuming we'll be gathering rank7 the whole time? From what I've heard, the highest common drops (not including quest rewards and such) will be rank5.
The problem is that if you consider Rank5 & Rank6, the time frames become ridiculous.
If best gem drop is Rank5, r=5
3^(13-5)*(10+2)/5/4 = 3937 days = 10.79 years
If best gem drop is Rank6, r=6
3^(13-6)*(10+2)/5/4 = 1312 days = 3.595 years
You have to remember a couple things,
#1 This time frame only starts AFTER you reach an appropriate level/gear.
#2 Most people make multiple characters, and this time frame is for EACH toon. If we started at Rank6, it would take about 17.5 years, not including the time to level/gear your toons, to get a 9*Rank13 gems & 1*Rank14 gem.
Blue post,
Quote from name="Bashiok 04/08/2011 10:54:15 AM PDT" »
We'll probably be dropping gems a couple levels further than the 5th (as previously stated), which should help. We also want to make sure it doesn't become a pain to have a ton of gems sitting around waiting for another one to upgrade, so there may be some crafting solutions that help with that. But more importantly we expect a more robust trading system will make it much more feasible to sell off a ton of gems, earn that wealth, and then buy back into gems later when you want - and on the buyer side of that, if you have some gems and just need one more to upgrade, it will be quick and easy to go get one for a reasonable price.
It does not mean that all gem drops will be level 7 in Infernal.
I can see the drop rate as being higher than 4 gems per hour but in Infernal I can see that you still get level 6 and or level 5 ones dropping. I hope you do not see any lower than that. I see the drop rate for the lower gems to be higher. The question is if it worthwhile to pick up any grade gems and upgrade them knowing that it takes a much larger amounts to get to the highest tier. I will also add quite some time in upgrade process as well.
I do not know if we can buy or gamble for gems if we can than that can make a significant change to the amount of time needed to get highest tier. But I do see it as an option but the quality would be quite low if you can.
Yah,I was thinking the same thing. It likely wont be worth your time to fool with gems below Rank5.
And if Rank5,6,7 all drop in inferno, which they probably will, then that can drastically lower the gem acquire rate.
ahhhhhh this reminds me of geometric progression's that we did earlier in maths. There will be thousands if not millions of players playing this game, the first rank 14 gem will come quite quickly.
That is a distinct possibility.
A group of farmers, or wealthy people will likely be able to acquire an absurd amount of gems quickly, but this math doesnt have anything to do with those people.
"This time frame is intended for people who desire to get the most of their toons, and not simply rushing to acquire a Rank14 gem ASAP."
Now, we have to come up with a figure for gems/hour.
4 gem drops / hour
1 gem purchases / hour (Equates to 4 bought per day and 1750 gems in total)
Total: 5 gem/hour
I would have to say that this section is so variable and inconsistent that it makes this impossible to "calculate".
Well it is obviously not impossible, I just did it.
On the other hand, you could say its improbable that we could guess the proper drop rate.
However, I would argue against that as well. The upper and lower limits of gem acquire rate are very close numerically speaking. In other words, gem acquire rate has to be above 0, but below the rate at which you can kill and loot mobs. However, given our knowledge of D2, and the information we have gotten from the creators of D3 we can narrow that number ever further.
Obviously every mob wont drop a gem, likewise, being permanent, it is safe to assume the drop rate wont be ridiculous either. Calculating all probable drop rates is easy, might take 5 minutes in excel. Picking the correct one from the list is the hard part.
You may think, 5 per hour is low. Ok, but it is variable in an equation, and can easily be changed. What do you think is a better gem acquire rate?
Note, this is not the time frame to get just one Rank14 gem, it is a timeframe to get 9 Rank13 gems and 1 Rank14 gem.
The only time you would ever think to upgrade to a rank 14 is if you had every gear socketed with Rank13 gems, and 2 more Rank13 gems in your bag.
So lets assume you have, 10 sockets in your gear.
To even consider upgrading you would need 10 Rank13 gems in gear, and another 2 more Rank13 gems in your bag.
To create 12*Rank13 gems from Rank7 gems requires,
12*3^6 = 8748 gems
Now we have to assume you play 4 hours a day.
Now, we have to come up with a figure for gems/hour.
4 gem drops / hour
1 gem purchases / hour (Equates to 4 bought per day and 1750 gems in total)
Total: 5 gem/hour
The equation to acquire your 1st Rank14 gem is simple, Time = 3^(13-r)*(s+2)/a/t
Where,
r = Base gem Rank = 7
s = Number of sockets = 10 sockets
a = Gem acquire rate = 5 gems/hour
t = Average hours played per day = 4 hours/day
For our example,
Time for 1st Rank14 = 3^(13-7)*(10+2)/5/4 = 437.4 days =1.198 years
In other words, it will take 437.4 days at an average of 4 hours played per day to acquire 9*Rank13 gems and your first Rank14 gem.
The equation to acquire all Rank14 gems, Time2 = 3^(14-r)*(s)/a/t
For our example,
Time2 = 3^(14-7)*10/5/4 = 1094 days = 2.996 years
It will take 2.996 years to acquire 10*Rank14 gems.
Note1: This # assumes that you either do not care about color, and/or you trade unwanted colors. It would take drastically longer, if you only wanted to socket gems of a certain color.
Note2: It will take at minimum an additional 4 hours to combine all those gems.
The biggest problem I have with the idea, is just where the heck do all those "failed" runes go? My wizard has 25 skills, that is an astonishing 125 possible runes I have to stash. Even if you assume that you can leave runes into unused skills, then you would only need 100 inventory spaces for failed runes. (I believe you only start off with 102 spaces in your inventory + stash.)
There are millions and millions of different combinations that exist for every character, and changing skills depending on the situation, and creating new builds was a huge part of the appeal for me in D3. So, I am a little confused by this current idea.
I like the stat to runes idea as it gives you something to hunt for, however that alone could consume a good deal of inventory space. Like charms in D2, exchange inventory space for power. Again I have no problem with this, in fact I like it. But to exchange inventory space for options? No, horrible idea.
Even if they allow the mystic to unattune runes, it does nothing to solve this inventory problem.
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Just because they are in the item tab does not necessarily mean they drop. They could be there just because they are "crafted" when attuned. Although, I would be ok with this system, assuming it works as you described.
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It is not speculative at all.
The only 2 variables are drop rate, and avg play time.
And since you gave me a time frame of 2 months, that means that it will take you ~27.5 gems/hour playing 4 hours per day. This # is a fact. However, the ratio of the # that drops to the # that you pickup is speculative, but given such a short time frame you are certainly going to buy the vast majority.
The drop rate I chose was 4 gems per hour. That is 4 random gems per hour though.
There are 6 types of gems, but if you are only interested in one particular gem, then the drop rate is only ONE SIXTH of the original, 4/6 gem/hour
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A couple months huh....Well lets see,
Specific Gem drop Rate = 4/6 per hour
Gem buy Rate = x
3^(14-6)/(4/6+x)/4 = 60 days
Solve for x, x=26.7 gems bought per hour.
Which is 6400 gems bought in 2 months. 640 stacks is a pretty sizable amount in 2 months, but of course it can be done. But again, like i said in the OP, this math is an estimate for the avg gamer trying to get Rank14gems, not richy rich buying them all.
Also, like I said, grinding to Rank14 quickly is a horrible idea char wise.
You are way better off with lots of lower level gems.
My DL speed is normally about 190 kb/s, so I can give a pretty good estimate.
Lol, there ya go.
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Whether they are Rank6 or Rank7, you will still have to stash tons of runes if you want to play around with specs at all.
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However, that really has nothing to do with my post. My concern had to do with trying alternate builds, and being required to stash up to 125 runes. I should not have to fill my entire shared stash with runes to try different spec on ONE toon!!!
And of course, I plan on playing every class. Where am I going to put up to ~600 runes?!?!
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Three years seems reasonable to me, maybe a little high.
But by that time, there could be several high ranking gems on AH.
PS: I found the best Avatar on the internet.
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3.6 years + level&gear time = ONE toon to get 1*Rank14 gem.
Time is relative, true, but ~4 years is a sizable amount of time for humans.
And 4 years is larger than the lifespan of most games.
And ~11 years is absurd for both.
Ohh and it is 9 YEARS at Rank6 to get all 10 of your gems to Rank14.
Rank5 & Rank6 simply are not viable choices.
You could do that quest 1 time, and as I said quests that yield gems can be factored into the gem acquire rate.
A quest you could do 1 time is basically irrelevant though.
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The problem is that if you consider Rank5 & Rank6, the time frames become ridiculous.
If best gem drop is Rank5, r=5
3^(13-5)*(10+2)/5/4 = 3937 days = 10.79 years
If best gem drop is Rank6, r=6
3^(13-6)*(10+2)/5/4 = 1312 days = 3.595 years
You have to remember a couple things,
#1 This time frame only starts AFTER you reach an appropriate level/gear.
#2 Most people make multiple characters, and this time frame is for EACH toon. If we started at Rank6, it would take about 17.5 years, not including the time to level/gear your toons, to get a 9*Rank13 gems & 1*Rank14 gem.
Blue post,
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27805270362&sid=3000#6
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Yah,I was thinking the same thing. It likely wont be worth your time to fool with gems below Rank5.
And if Rank5,6,7 all drop in inferno, which they probably will, then that can drastically lower the gem acquire rate.
That is a distinct possibility.
A group of farmers, or wealthy people will likely be able to acquire an absurd amount of gems quickly, but this math doesnt have anything to do with those people.
"This time frame is intended for people who desire to get the most of their toons, and not simply rushing to acquire a Rank14 gem ASAP."
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ty
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Other factors like quests or gem shrines(Not likely) are essentially nothing more than an increase in gem acquire rate.
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Well it is obviously not impossible, I just did it.
On the other hand, you could say its improbable that we could guess the proper drop rate.
However, I would argue against that as well. The upper and lower limits of gem acquire rate are very close numerically speaking. In other words, gem acquire rate has to be above 0, but below the rate at which you can kill and loot mobs. However, given our knowledge of D2, and the information we have gotten from the creators of D3 we can narrow that number ever further.
Obviously every mob wont drop a gem, likewise, being permanent, it is safe to assume the drop rate wont be ridiculous either. Calculating all probable drop rates is easy, might take 5 minutes in excel. Picking the correct one from the list is the hard part.
You may think, 5 per hour is low. Ok, but it is variable in an equation, and can easily be changed. What do you think is a better gem acquire rate?
Note, this is not the time frame to get just one Rank14 gem, it is a timeframe to get 9 Rank13 gems and 1 Rank14 gem.
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The way the system works, you are better off waiting to the very last minute to get a Rank14 gem, as each rank only adds 10 stats, or +1% bonus.
9 Rank12 gems >> 3 Rank13 gems >> 1 Rank14 gem.
720 stats >> 270 stats >> 100 stats
The only time you would ever think to upgrade to a rank 14 is if you had every gear socketed with Rank13 gems, and 2 more Rank13 gems in your bag.
So lets assume you have, 10 sockets in your gear.
To even consider upgrading you would need 10 Rank13 gems in gear, and another 2 more Rank13 gems in your bag.
To create 12*Rank13 gems from Rank7 gems requires,
12*3^6 = 8748 gems
Now we have to assume you play 4 hours a day.
Now, we have to come up with a figure for gems/hour.
4 gem drops / hour
1 gem purchases / hour (Equates to 4 bought per day and 1750 gems in total)
Total: 5 gem/hour
The equation to acquire your 1st Rank14 gem is simple,
Time = 3^(13-r)*(s+2)/a/t
Where,
r = Base gem Rank = 7
s = Number of sockets = 10 sockets
a = Gem acquire rate = 5 gems/hour
t = Average hours played per day = 4 hours/day
For our example,
Time for 1st Rank14 = 3^(13-7)*(10+2)/5/4 = 437.4 days =1.198 years
In other words, it will take 437.4 days at an average of 4 hours played per day to acquire 9*Rank13 gems and your first Rank14 gem.
The equation to acquire all Rank14 gems,
Time2 = 3^(14-r)*(s)/a/t
For our example,
Time2 = 3^(14-7)*10/5/4 = 1094 days = 2.996 years
It will take 2.996 years to acquire 10*Rank14 gems.
Note1: This # assumes that you either do not care about color, and/or you trade unwanted colors. It would take drastically longer, if you only wanted to socket gems of a certain color.
Note2: It will take at minimum an additional 4 hours to combine all those gems.
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There are millions and millions of different combinations that exist for every character, and changing skills depending on the situation, and creating new builds was a huge part of the appeal for me in D3. So, I am a little confused by this current idea.
I like the stat to runes idea as it gives you something to hunt for, however that alone could consume a good deal of inventory space. Like charms in D2, exchange inventory space for power. Again I have no problem with this, in fact I like it. But to exchange inventory space for options? No, horrible idea.
Even if they allow the mystic to unattune runes, it does nothing to solve this inventory problem.