DiabloFans

@Enty:
Alright. I could be the one misinterpreting what was said so far but I'll just recheck when I'm not tired. You could be right about the legendaries since, after all, they are making the lowbie ones drop at lvl 70 etc and those Frostburns did look pretty end-gameish but who's to say.

With regards to the other issue which you didn't touch on in your last post, I will only add this: you have to understand that a black market would flourish now that AH and RMAH are being removed. As soon as I am put in a position to evaluate whether I should go on and grind the game for another year or just buy everything I need instantly and cheap (to save my time and perhaps do something more productive with my life in the meanwhile like actually make money) I will want to know exactly what is the incentive for me to choose the actual game instead of the short route there. What is it that will not make me feel like a fool for wasting my eyesight and PC peripherals? What is my incentive to accept a full time job that pays in a wheel of cheese by the end of each month instead of just buying the cheese for the $10 I have in my pocket right now? I want a full months salary (metaphor for a proper reward) or indeed, I'm opting out of the game, like you said. I would play the game a little bit but it would all soon start feeling like a waste of time, especially ladders since those are actually designed to be competitive in nature.

I really actually don't care about other peoples' gaming habits in this particular case. But your approach of "don't ask don't tell" makes me think you would probably not be too opposed to duping, hacking, item editing if they existed in the game, and wouldn't view any of that as a problem as long as it doesn't affect you directly (or so you think)? The game is not an offline single player and the rules are for everyone. Trading as a concept is ideal for a Diablo game but the fact that people will always bring real world economy into the game breaks the most basic principles of the game that has very low drop rates for a reason. The game wasn't designed around the premise of getting all imba items in a heartbeat. I bet D2 trading sounded like a great idea at the time but it just won't work in this day and age.

Also, every gamer who wants to have bragging rights for investing the time of their life in a videogame that is designed around rare and valuable achievements, should rightfully expect those and I support that fully. People who argue against BoA love to attack such gamers in their posts and call them out for being "pathetic" or "sad". From my point of view, what is truly sad, is that people are so selfish about some features in the game for all the insignificant reasons (and in some cases invalidated with how the game is going to change fundamentally), that they are not only willing to be completely blind to how these features are breaking the entirety of the game forever, but also preach to other people that they should be equally blind to those obvious problems (or simply don't care) or else they're just sad bunch. All I'm saying is that even if you personally don't play this game competitively, you have no rights to look down on people who do.

Quote from Enty

To point one, It really upsets you and devalues your game when someone just bought the item? REALLY?

Errr.... no? That's exactly the opposite of what I said, please re-read:

Quote from Dimebog

Even if 0 people want to trade for money, my time spent in the game is devalued by the fact that the results for my hard work can be obtained without any of that hard work.

That means I can choose to play for hundreds of hours and achieve some sort of results, and then hundreds of hours later, a website will remind me that my effort was in retrospect worth about 10 bucks and I am going to scratch my head really hard. How can you not understand how this devalues the time you spend in the game? It has nothing to do with whether other people buy or don't buy items.

Quote from Enty

To point two Listen again, he doesn't say that there are going to be one harder to find he says (after saying that 6 Legs drop on average) that there are still going to be those items that you want to find and work for, we aren't making legendaries go out of style they'll still have worth and we aren't handing you them. So What he really meant was here's 6 perfectly good legendaries that you can use, and its 6 so out of the 100's of legendaries there are you have 6 and now you have to work as in keep playing to get the ones you wanted because you might not always get the ones you want first try or 4th try or millionth try for that matter.

Well, right now I literally have 6-7 pairs of Gladiator's Gauntlets not counting the ones i salvaged and I'm pretty sure I would see a whole bunch of more Gladiator's Gauntlets and similar low end legendaries before ever finding a Mempo (which I still haven't). Unless you have some proof that this will suddenly change in RoS and that all legendaries are going to become equal in rarity (totally unreasonable to even consider) then I really don't see what you are trying to prove now. I also entirely disagree with your interpretation of "what he really meant" in that video. He actually said "we won't be handing them like they're going out of style" exactly so that people wouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing such a high number of legendaries found per run, but I guess people will always find a way to misinterpret very plain statements and get their own meaning of things.

The fact that all legendaries are going to be somewhat good doesn't mean "every legendary is equal in power". It's the unique effects they have that make them interesting or useful in certain scenarios. On Blizzcon they also said during a panel that the rarer an item is, the more powerful it should be, period (although you can easily misinterpret this too if you wish).

Quote from Enty

Your first point is moot because sure they exist, and sure people use them but the majority of players do not.

I really don't care who uses them and who doesn't. That's absolutely beside the point. Even if 0 people want to trade for money, my time spent in the game is devalued by the fact that the results for my hard work can be obtained without any of that hard work. But that's just me - it might be different for you and I respect that. I really don't see though, how my point is moot because "the majority of players this or that". I really don't care. The fact is that top geared players might have purchased their gear or worked for it. We will never know, will we? If I ever get to be a top geared player I don't really have much to show for it if I am just one of many people who may or may not have bought their gear.

Quote from Enty

To the second point, as it stands every leg has an equal chance to drop..

No, bro. Watch the vid for loot 2.0 announcement. Immediately after talking about how legendaries will be witnessed in the game a whole lot more often, there is an explanation that there are still going to be those really powerful legendaries that are very hard to find. And it's not true that every legendary has the equal chance of dropping, that is 100% incorrect.

Quote from shaggy

18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant.

And what is it that will be making it irrelevant? The fact that it will be a dirt cheap item you can get so easily from the AH, a friend, etc? Exactly. What makes items irrelevant is the urge people have to put price tags on items. What makes items irrelevant is that they are so readily available from ALL the sources OTHER than dropping during ACTUAL GAMEPLAY.

If you're actually looking at it competitively, I'm more okay with the concept of "that guy was lucky" over "that guy probably bought all his items". At the end of the day, the gap will be narrowed and things will equalize as people spend more time in the game. Given enough time, people with more time invested in the game will definitely be wealthier and better equipped than people who don't spend a lot of time in the game but got lucky a couple of times (not that your luck can't turn around at any point either). It's the idea that I MIGHT get lucky that keeps me hacking through the monsters that day, and the day after that, and the day after that. If I can just say "fuck it" literally at any point and just buy all my stuff, then why play at all? Where is the reward?

The idea that I might never get some specific legendary is so much more appealing to me than knowing that everyone can get anything at whim sooner or later. Once and if the item actually drops, it will be all the more satisfying in the long run. Why is everyone entitled to the entirety of the loot?

Quote from Enty

Quote from Dimebog

Quote from riptide

Now how long do you think ANYONE will be continue to play that character when they no longer get worthwhile loot. I mean it was all worthwhile up until around the week 4 mark and then it slowed down considerably.

I honestly have no idea. How long do people continue to play after they buy all the items they need? How quickly can you get from top 30% to top 10% in an ebay economy? Seconds? Minutes?

The better question than "how long do you play after the game stops dropping worthwhile loot" is "how long do you play a game in which there is no worthwhile loot to begin with". What exactly is "worth my while" if there is no difference between 1% drop chance and 0.0000001% drop chance, in an economy where millions of people keep producing items on a daily basis to a point where everything can be found in an absolute abundance months if not weeks after a ladder reset?

There's a huge difference. When the drop chance is 1% everyone getting one, when its 0.0000001% barely anyones got one. With the removal of the AH they stepped in the right direction because it's not so readily available. Do you honestly think that every game you enter will just be 3 people standing in town spamming "JALLALS FOR SOJ!JALLALS FOR SOJ!JALLALS FOR SOJ!" No The chances of you meeting those "millions of players" is very slim especially with a four person game. Remember we cant choose what game we join.If they added trading it adds some sort of availability, but its severely limited in that you'll never see whose got one. You may enter 50 games and never find the Soj or Jallals you are looking for, simple as that. Now with BoA you may never be able to get that item (IF THEY'D FIX THE DROP RATE)

No, I was specifically referring to the fact that you can buy items from numerous websites very quickly after a ladder starts. I remember that it takes less than two weeks before you can buy Hellfire Torches in a fresh ladder. With all the bad shit that AH/RMAH meant for the game, I think RMAH was actually kind of good in the fact that players still kind of traded with one another (except that it was really WAY too convenient as you mention) instead of turning to the market of Chinese farmers and botters which is exactly what would happen. I can't really tell which is worse (AH or totally uncontrollable black market).

Quote from Enty

I've also seen you argue this in posts before that we don't know how the drop rates are going to work and they wont be bad.... Well if you take all the Loot 2.0 details and think and compile them for a moment you'd realize the game is in a literally awful state right now. Think about how awesome every gear you saw was. Think about how badass they want to make legendaries. Then think about how many you find per act 3 run solo at p40? 6... In a 4 person co-op game that's 24 legendaries to split between you guys. Then if that holds true for all 5 acts, you're looking at almost 120 legendaries a game between four people. Since they'll all be so mighty and powerful cause your loot has to be meaningful you know, you will never need to play this game outside of a few months. The end will be there and you will have nothing to do. Literally nothing. There will again be no endgame. No cool content to continue through nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch NOTHING!

Once again, the premise is that /really/ powerful legendaries are going to be extremely rare, says Blizzard. It would be like getting 6 items equivalent to Gladiator's Gauntlets just so that you get to see that orange drop once in a while. You don't get Mempos every game, do you? The difference is that they want to make even low-end legendaries kind of interesting because they can support some kind of obscure builds even if their stats are not so good.

Quote from riptide

Now how long do you think ANYONE will be continue to play that character when they no longer get worthwhile loot. I mean it was all worthwhile up until around the week 4 mark and then it slowed down considerably.

I honestly have no idea. How long do people continue to play after they buy all the items they need? How quickly can you get from top 30% to top 10% in an ebay economy? Seconds? Minutes?

The better question than "how long do you play after the game stops dropping worthwhile loot" is "how long do you play a game in which there is no worthwhile loot to begin with". What exactly is "worth my while" if there is no difference between 1% drop chance and 0.0000001% drop chance, in an economy where millions of people keep producing items on a daily basis to a point where everything can be found in an absolute abundance months if not weeks after a ladder reset?

Quote from riptide

What rose tinted glasses are you looking through to see a point in an XP ranking system for a loot based game that no longer drops you worthwhile loot?

Whoah, wait. The ladders will be pointless because loot will NO LONGER be worthwhile? Are you saying the loot drops are worthwhile NOW or are you saying that ladders in a loot based game only have a point if you can buy said loot on ebay?

Rose titnted glasses, indeed.

The part where you base of your absurd assumptions on the console version which uses 95% old itemization, combat mechanics and some kind of increased drop rates is very funny too.

Quote from Popnbake

Quote from IgnatiusReilly

Trading only gets you to the point where killing monsters is no longer fun that much quicker. It's a system that doesn't support the core game play in any way, other than to shorten it.

Then just make the decision not to trade.

It's that simple.

How does other players trading deter your enjoyment?

Geez, I guess everyone should then be satisfied and have no reason to bitch about anything Blizzard decides to do. It's as simple as playing your own Diablo 3 pen and paper game with your own made up rules. Oh the possibilities!

Well, don't get me wrong, I can find a bunch of legendaries fast too but it's mostly gonna be crap. They explicitly said that really powerful legendaries are still going to be extremely rare.

Quote from riptide

BoA doesn't create longevity. It actually hurts it because it hinders character progression beyond reason. Especially with the changes to loot.

Says you. What do you know about RoS character progression? I can at least think of one other Blizzard game that uses item binding and has found a sweet spot where obtaining items feels incredibly rewarding. Miles more rewarding than whipping out your credit card and buying them which is exactly what the game would eventually degrade to. God tier Diablo 2 items can be bought for a couple of bucks on numerous third party sites even today.

Quote from riptide

With all the casuals that cry about never finding loot and from what I've personally seen on the console version... the only reason people will be playing a year after release will be ladders. Which undermines the whole paragon system anyway.

How does it undermine the paragon system? The paragon system IS the ladder. The competition is who gets a higher paragon level since normal levels are capped at 70. When each ladder is over all your ladder paragon EXP gets transfered to your standard non-ladder pool so your non-ladder paragon progression is constant even if you exclusively choose to play on ladders.

Quote from riptide

Basically they have put less thought into this than I. Which is saying something. I would put anything on it that this will change either before release or it will be a feature in the following expansion to get players like me to buy it.

They could call it Diablo 3 : Boundless or perhaps Unbound?

Or they could not do that and then players like me will be very happy and have a reason to actually play the game. I guess somebody wins either way.

Argument gets repeated over and over again: trading was nice to be able to get exactly what you want on your way to perfection.

If you are NOT able to always get what you want and reach perfection after following a simple A-B-C route, that will be so perfect in my opinion. Probably one of the best things that could happen to this game.

Also the fact that BoA is obviously very good for the integrity and longevity of the game doesn't mean that I wish Legendaries to rain. I wish they were as rare as they are now. But Blizzard can't please everyone. The consensus amongst players is that they want EVERYTHING and they want it NOW except some people want to do it through trading/buying online and some people just want high drop rates. I support neither but maybe there is a balance to be found.

People are just upset with the possibility of perhaps never being able to get some specific item they want. Not only will this probably turn out to be very unlikely but I also don't see why everyone feels entitled to have exactly everything they want in this game. Remember Annihilus from D2? What irks me that people see duping as a positive thing just like some people saw AH as a positive thing here.

The age of instant gratification in gaming.

Quote from Zero(pS)

Quote from Dimebog

Diablo is not going to be P2W for the first time.

Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?

No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.

But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?

The same way you win or lose at any game. That's what games are - a test of your abilities. In D3 there are various ways to measure how far you've gotten. You spend hours because it eventually gets you somewhere. The disagreement lies in the fact that for some people the end goals are the why they play game and not the grindy process of getting there. Choosing to grind for 1500 hours to save $20 is not because I enjoy grinding. It's because that's how I believe the game should be played.

There doesn't have to be a competition of any sort for a game to be P2W. Imagine if Blizzard would start selling any legendary item for 2$. This is pay to win as how this business model is called these days. From the players' point of view it doesn't matter if you buy from Blizzard or a third party site. Effectively, it means that you are playing a P2W game.

Preferences and personal definitions of terms aside, the concept of rare drops and itemization as a whole are devalued entirely if there is an alternative way that circumvents the entire gameplay. For me gameplay is more important than people raging about not being able to share items with friends. It's not convenient, but with the new drop rates, your friends won't need your help anyway. If someone has never played the game before and a veteran friend introduces him to it and immediately showers him with a bunch of the most powerful items in the game and suddenly you just ruined hours and hours of potential fun for that poor guy who will never be able to experience the rush of finding their own rare item. If that was my first experience with any Diablo game, I would probably get bored fast and quit. It's not worth the convenience. Rather keep the higher drop rates.

Another thing I'm annoyed is when people say "But now there is nothing to do with items I can't use for my class and this bugs me!!!!!11" - Blizzard has mentioned on Blizzcon that there are unannounced item sinks, and you WILL have things to do with items you can't use. The decision not to increase stash size is so that people would have to evaluate which items are worth keeping and which items will be destroyed through whatever system (probably related to crafting) Blizzard has come up with.

Diablo is not going to be P2W for the first time.

Quote from miles_dryden

Quote from Dimebog

I wish NV would persist through death and logging off and everything other than dying and respec. That would be a nice incentive not to die.

You wish it would persist through death but not dying? People die when they are killed.

I'm sorry, I was high when I wrote that. I meant it should persist through DC and logging off but reset when you respec or die, proving to likely be a fitting penalty for both of those things. I understand some people don't like death to be punished as harshly as it is in D1, D2 and PoE, and prefer the style where you don't have to build to survive most/all situations in the game (HC is an extreme example of this). I really don't see how dying more than once per five elite fights should ever be considered as good progressing in the game. That's why there are so many difficulties to choose from.

Another upside of this approach is that there wouldn't be a 30 minute timer pressing you to gogogogo instead of perhaps chill in town and do some crafting and using the chat channels. Because currently you might as well log out of the game if you are going to do that. This would go hand in hand with the concept of Adventure mode as you would have one less reason to log out of your game, especially if they would give you the option to manually reset any zone for mobs from inside the game.

I wish NV would persist through death and logging off and everything other than dying and respec. That would be a nice incentive not to die.