I've torn this game a new asshole on several occasion while venting my frustrations over their mistakes and sometimes meandering direction. I've quit 3 times due to getting burned out with the current state. They patch, I play, I quit....rinse...repeat.
I'll vouch for you too! I remember fairly lively conversations with you and Maka.
Of course I'm the one that will probably be confirmed as the overly optimistic one. Yet even my patience is running thin on some things. Even so I still mange to love the game. I suppose it helps that I play so many other games now as well that I don't get enough time with D3 to get worked up about it.
It's been intersting reading the topic, it certainly improved once it got past the whole Krip/Alk thing. I don't think anyone wants to get me started on my thoughts on Krip, so I'll just keep lurking. :Thumbs Up:
^^ the only guy who's videos are worth watching.
What I enjoy most about your vids is that you don't mumble and prattle on like a loon that's just talking to himself *cough cough kripparian cough
PLEASE tell me anything other than combat and graphics that PoE is inferior to D3.
Those would be the big ones. "combat" is gameplay which is arguably 90% of the reason of existence for any video game. PoE's gameplay isn't as smooth as it could be and there are huge spikes in damage and difficulty that sometimes feel unfair (think old inferno in D3). Some people like that so I don't know if it's what you'd call 'inferior'.
See, the fallacy here is that money makes everything. An indie game can have some of the most amazing gameplay ever. Money is most likely going to buy you graphics and time. Just look at the indie success of games like Braid and Bastion. Huge studios and cash are only means to an artistic vision and game design philosophy.
But to get back on topic, what does PoE do poorly?
Accessibility - PoE is not easy and you can fail horrible unless you plan a very detailed route of passives and possibly even skills. This works well for hardcore enthusiasts but the average gamer does not want to spend this much time in planning, they just want to play. This alienates part of your potential fan base.
Respec - Added on to above, you have a very difficult time respecing your tree. If you want to redo your tree you either need to farm and trade for orbs or just remake the character from scratch. This adds 'replayability' much like Diablo 2 did, but much of that replayability is uninteresting as you're just going through the motions of getting levels back to make your build. You can't even purchase with cash a way to fully respec.
Network performance - The game, even when you play in single player, suffers from some massive Out of Sync issues. I've been teleported into parts of a dungeon I wasn't even near when the client and server couldn't agree on my location. This is something that Diablo 3 has done mostly well through its life but it does have some hiccups. PoE on the other hand, I have had OOS issues on a nightly basis (it may have improved lately, I do not know). For those who know this issue, I will offer this advice: Memorize and type in "/OOS" into your chat to force a server resync. Best command I've ever learned in that game.
EDIT: Overly large maps with minimal reason to explore - PoE's maps wear thin very quickly when you're just leveling prior to hitting any kind of 'end game'. I find that want to start just running past monsters because I want to change the scenery or because it just feels like there's no end to the monsters I need to kill before I finally get to my destination.
So as you can see, my issues with the game are mostly personal and the "flaws" I pointed out could be argued to not be flaws at all based on personal feeling and expectations. There is no one right answer, but you wanted examples so I gave them.
If you feel this strongly then please, make it public. Pass on the smart juice into the general public.
Well when it comes to players like Krip/Alk who claim the game needs to be salvaged, I just think it comes to a mentality that every game they play has to have some kind of super end game sustainability. Not every single player game can have that kind of longevity. I also think that they focus on menial tasks like farming as efficiently as possible with the best build that has 1% improvement over the next build rather than just having fun with it.
I like to just play around, try new builds for fun. I like finding awesome items (which admittedly is still missing, but being worked on) and just doing something stupid to see if it'll work. I know that's not the same style as everyone else, but I wonder if D3 needs to be taken so 'seriously'. I also think this is why I don't care for PoE and TL2 as much as D3 (though Torchlight has been fun to play and there are ways around the respec issue in that game).
I would also argue that PoE's endgame (maps) is as bad as Diablo 3's and their RNG system is equally as bad if not worse than the RNG that was present in Diablo 3.
I would also argue that PoE's endgame (maps) is as bad as Diablo 3's and their RNG system is equally as bad if not worse than the RNG that was present in Diablo 3.
I don't know if I agree with that. The PoE map system is the perfect kind of system for the people that want that super end came sustainability. It's honestly a really cool innovative system they came up with.
However, I think I could add to my list of things PoE did poorly:
Overly large maps with minimal reason to explore - PoE's maps wear thin very quickly when you're just leveling prior to hitting any kind of 'end game'. I find that want to start just running past monsters because I want to change the scenery or because it just feels like there's no end to the monsters I need to kill before I finally get to my destination.
In game level design, finding a balance in level length is ideal. Diablo 3 only has a few areas where I tend to feel like this as dungeon exits usually tend to appear just as I'm ready to move on. D3 also has random events to find that make the maps worth exploring while PoE often doesn't have anything worth finding on the map by itself.
Now... the large maps are great once you're at the end and only want to kill monsters to farm them. it means you can just wade through any area you want, but they're just too large for exploration and getting through the first few difficulties. It's something I've struggled with while playing the game, forgot to mention it earlier
I would also argue that PoE's endgame (maps) is as bad as Diablo 3's and their RNG system is equally as bad if not worse than the RNG that was present in Diablo 3.
I don't know if I agree with that. The PoE map system is the perfect kind of system for the people that want that super end came sustainability. It's honestly a really cool innovative system they came up with.
It's a great concept, but like a lot of the other things (particularly items) they beat it into shit with the orb system and the general way that RNG face-fucks you to death in that game.
Ever gotten to a level 70-ish map and not found ANY maps and had to go back to Solaris Temple (or wherever) to farm a new base-level map? That's not fun. It's so mind-numbing that it drives me away. I don't even know how to make a D3 analogy, but...
It'd be like being told that you didn't get the right kind of drops in Act 3 to make another Act 3 game, so you have to go back to Act 2 and farm that to be able to make an Act 3 game. It just reeks of completely artificial roadblocks that serve to cater to people who play lots and is just another point that really makes the game inaccessible to people who won't invest 4-5 hours per day in the game.
Maps are not a good system for casuals because your endgame access is based on RNG. Obviously they could simply up the droprates so it stops being a big issue, but until they do that (which they probably won't) it's a fairly major issue for non-professional gamers.
EDIT
In regards to the large maps. Very yes. It's horrible because the scenery is God-awful. It feels like the absolutely boring scenery was always pushing me to move on ASAP. I hated feeling like half of the areas made Dahlgur Oasis seem tiny.
I started to hate large maps a lot when leveling new chars or messing around in act 2 in Diablo 3, damn, i hated Act 3 in D2 with such passion. Probably because there aren't many monsters to kill or are a pain to navigate.
I like what Kage said about PoE. I tried that game, and it's quite nice, but what threw me off was the actual skill system tied to rng sockets and rng drops and rng orbs to have another rng shot to your sockets. Yo DAWG!
I don't know, in Diablo 3 my character is quite functional with his skill sets, expecially now with Inferno being a looooot easier than release, i can play self found without stripping my hair to get that bloody weapon to have functional gem junctions.
Or maybe i just needed to roll an easier toon with an easier build to farm <.<' Or i'm getting old for this.
The idea behind the map system is great, no doubt about that. But the implementation of it is just flat out horrible and equally as bad as running Act 3 over and over again. The fact that you can sit in Docks/Lunaris for hours and not get a single map drop to actually do maps.
Now once you get in maps, if you aren't spending currency to roll "area is a maze", "area is larger", etc, you can guarantee the map pool that you have is going to go away and right back to Docks/Lunaris regardless of the IIQ precent that the maps have on them. Problem with that is if you aren't the lucky player and get items worth trading for massive amounts of currency you rarely ever get the currency back that that you spent to roll "area is a maze" and the few other map mods that actually yield maps. And if you are lucky enough to start getting getting some of the higher level maps you better be ready to dump massive amounts of currency into the map and then pray to the map Gods that they are nice on that day and provide you with a map of equal of greater value ... but you'll most likely end up with a some 68 maps and some 69 maps or no maps at all.
So you're back to Docks/Lunaris farming again or you are in the trade channel doing the same things most people did in D3 ... trade for their items, except instead of gold on an AH you're just spending orbs (hooooray!).
That to me why the map system is just as bad as farming Act 3, while a great idea, it leaves MUCH to be desired.
Well when it comes to players like Krip/Alk who claim the game needs to be salvaged, I just think it comes to a mentality that every game they play has to have some kind of super end game sustainability.
Developers these days are so worried about making content last so long to appease people that are playing upwards of 16 hours a day that the ARPG scene is slowly turning into an RNG nightmare of boring proportions.
Have fun with your d3 and its rabbid community which destroys every game it touches for the sake of accessibility. You won. Enjoy your game, it is as good as it will ever get.
Hopefully Dark Souls 2 will not get the same treatment.
Not sure how off-topic we are right now. You guys can give feedback on this as well.
I'm gonna keep this open for now, as the whole D3 vs PoE debate is something a lot of people are interested in, and the video has PoE gameplay with opinions on D3/PoE, so I guess we're still pretty much on track.
good to see a guy with great arguments and reasoning like KazeKage join the discussion as well, spot on points!
Have fun with your d3 and its rabbid community which destroys every game it touches for the sake of accessibility. You won. Enjoy your game, it is as good as it will ever get.
Hopefully Dark Souls 2 will not get the same treatment.
Can't seem to find the post you're quoting in this thread, and your own comment seems quite a bit off-topic. Care to elaborate? (otherwise I'll just remove it)
It's a great concept, but like a lot of the other things (particularly items) they beat it into shit with the orb system and the general way that RNG face-fucks you to death in that game.
Ever gotten to a level 70-ish map and not found ANY maps and had to go back to Solaris Temple (or wherever) to farm a new base-level map? That's not fun. It's so mind-numbing that it drives me away. I don't even know how to make a D3 analogy, but...
It'd be like being told that you didn't get the right kind of drops in Act 3 to make another Act 3 game, so you have to go back to Act 2 and farm that to be able to make an Act 3 game. It just reeks of completely artificial roadblocks that serve to cater to people who play lots and is just another point that really makes the game inaccessible to people who won't invest 4-5 hours per day in the game.
Maps are not a good system for casuals because your endgame access is based on RNG. Obviously they could simply up the droprates so it stops being a big issue, but until they do that (which they probably won't) it's a fairly major issue for non-professional gamers.
Ah, I see your point. I am a big fan of the concept, but I never got high enough in the game to try the execution. I fully see the point you raise about feeling like you have to go backards in order to go farwards again. I think the idea of the map system is where the Infernal machine and ubers came in for D3, but in D3 that feels very much optional while the maps of PoE feel pretty mandetory once you reach a certain point in the game (or so I've heard). So it goes from this really cool idea for extra content to feeling content locked. I'll reserve judgement untill I get to try it I think.
EDIT
In regards to the large maps. Very yes. It's horrible because the scenery is God-awful. It feels like the absolutely boring scenery was always pushing me to move on ASAP. I hated feeling like half of the areas made Dahlgur Oasis seem tiny.
Yes and the maps just kept getting longer. Imagine my face when I found out act 3 had even BIGGER maps than acts 1 and 2 after playing in the closed beta for awhile. Whew.. soo many rooms and monsters.
I started to hate large maps a lot when leveling new chars or messing around in act 2 in Diablo 3, damn, i hated Act 3 in D2 with such passion. Probably because there aren't many monsters to kill or are a pain to navigate.
I like what Kage said about PoE. I tried that game, and it's quite nice, but what threw me off was the actual skill system tied to rng sockets and rng drops and rng orbs to have another rng shot to your sockets. Yo DAWG!
I don't know, in Diablo 3 my character is quite functional with his skill sets, expecially now with Inferno being a looooot easier than release, i can play self found without stripping my hair to get that bloody weapon to have functional gem junctions.
Or maybe i just needed to roll an easier toon with an easier build to farm <.<' Or i'm getting old for this.
This is something I probably could have put on my list of flaws for PoE, but I was on the fence about it. The skill drop system seems very cool in PoE untill you realize you have to get lucky to make a build you might be trying for. As an example, if you wanted to use GMP (Greater Multiple Projectiles) on a skill, you have to hope that a GMP skill drops. You can never ever get GMP from levels or quests. It is kind of exciting in some ways but I fully agree that casual players will probably hate that they may never get all the skills their class can use.
It's even more crazy when you add in Quality. My Arc Witch is doing fairly well, but I got lucky and found "Arc" with a high quality so it adds an additional chance to add status effects. If I wouldn't have found that I don't know if the build would be doing nearly as well. But there's good in that where builds in PoE can be greatly affected by items, which is something that Diablo 3 does lack. Once they get some legendaries with more risky and dynamic affixes on them, we might see some interesting D3 builds come out using them.
This is something I probably could have put on my list of flaws for PoE, but I was on the fence about it. The skill drop system seems very cool in PoE untill you realize you have to get lucky to make a build you might be trying for. As an example, if you wanted to use GMP (Greater Multiple Projectiles) on a skill, you have to hope that a GMP skill drops. You can never ever get GMP from levels or quests. It is kind of exciting in some ways but I fully agree that casual players will probably hate that they may never get all the skills their class can use.
It's even more crazy when you add in Quality. My Arc Witch is doing fairly well, but I got lucky and found "Arc" with a high quality so it adds an additional chance to add status effects. If I wouldn't have found that I don't know if the build would be doing nearly as well. But there's good in that where builds in PoE can be greatly affected by items, which is something that Diablo 3 does lack. Once they get some legendaries with more risky and dynamic affixes on them, we might see some interesting D3 builds come out using them.
I'm not against builds tied to specific items, Diablo 2 was full of them and spiced up the game quite a lot (Whirlwind Assassin? Werewolf Barb?). I have this feeling that every build in PoE to be efficient needs that linked weapon with all those correct gems, but i never went past level 55, but it started to be quite tiresome as a Lightning Strike Templar to go on. I probably should have rolled something else.... yep.
Returning to Diablo 3.... the itemization is lacking and one dimensional. I hope to see different affixes, expecially in legendaries, to spice up builds. The best example i can give is the suggested Source that lets you summon two Hydras as a Wizard. For me that would be nice, i liked Hydras so much while i leveled my (now dead) Wizzy.
Not sure how off-topic we are right now. You guys can give feedback on this as well.
I'm gonna keep this open for now, as the whole D3 vs PoE debate is something a lot of people are interested in, and the video has PoE gameplay with opinions on D3/PoE, so I guess we're still pretty much on track.
good to see a guy with great arguments and reasoning like KazeKage join the discussion as well, spot on points!
Thank you, sir, though I fear I may have derailed things! I'm not entirely sure what the main topic is anymore as I haven't even watched the video Blame work, they don't let me watch videos here. lol
Money definitely doesn't bring everything to the table which D3 is a prime example of, good ideas and a willingness to produce is what makes a game good. With every other Blizzard title the developing team has understood that a very high number of players have spent more time playing the game than they have put in work hours in developing it from the start, so ideas from different sources should be treated that way too.
Getting combat and graphics into the format D3 has is not like researching an upgrade in starcraft, it takes years of time and experienced people at constant work, there is no way around it.
This is very true. When it comes to Blizzard the money is only part, they have been making games for a very long time. It gives them an edge on a lot of competators.
The two first points you made both revolve around the concept of being a fully functional human being, but wanting to be rewarded for sinking down to the level of a mentally handicapped person. If you want to make choices and play a game without using the slightest amount of common sense you are free to do so, but for gods sake stop expecting to get rewarded for it.
To fully understand something I accept having to go through the trial and error process, and while I will lose a significant amount of currency and/or time, I know I will come out where I want to be.
I first think that's something of a harsh statement and I disagree about your finer points. I do agree that trial and error are important and that you should be rewarded for risk. However, I don't think that risk needs to be 10 hours of my time to correct.
If I make a build in PoE or even Diablo 2 and get an idea for a new one, I have to make a new character and try it. Most of that time is leveling back up to the level I already was in order to do it. What happens if when I finally get the skill points to make the build and find out that it didn't work the way I thought or I just didn't like it and wanted to go back?
Changing skills in D3 is quick and easy, but it does come with the risk it'll fail. Some builds require diffrent gear that required more time to farm, but at least I don't have to regain levels I've already played. If I had to level then farm gear again, that'd be twice as annoying. Any gamer who doesn't have a lot of time or maybe has other games they enjoy would feel that the effort required for a minimal 'reward' or being able to try something new just might not be worth it.
And on the subject of PoE taking too much planning I stand by that one. You don't need to have to spend hours of planning (which PoE does if you want to be able to survive high levels). I don't mind if I need to sit back and plan my skill route but don't make me have to sit down, chart graphs of what's the best survivable node to take and gives me .01% better survivablilty. That level of planning is great if you want to make a personal uber build that just tears through everything but PoE practically requires this level just to SURVIVE. Again, if there were a less annoying way to respec, it wouldn't even matter. I could go out, die a few times and realize I need to respec and try again.
In the end we're still talking risk and reward, but requiring huge amounts of time just to try a new skill or playstyle for your character type just doesn't seem like a worthwhile one. There are games to cater to people who like that kind of thing, but don't expect it to gain a large amount of popularity as most gamers tend to fall into that "casual" category that most vocal forum goers like to complain about.
The third point you make is a solid one, but what you're forgetting is that the game you have experienced is a Beta version of the finished product. While it is an annoying part of the game its not something you can't outplay and most PLAYERS even understand why its happening and with what set of skills. Spending a ton of time and resources RIGHT NOW on something that can be fixed with money isn't worth doing when they have an option to pump out more content for players.
Oh it's certainly the product of a beta. The only thing that annoys me about it is that it's not always easy to tell its happening and it can get you killed (don't think I'll ever hardcore in that game lol). This was listed more so because you wanted flaws and I tried to think of as many as I could off the top of my head
As for the last part, you're warping and twisting that releasing more content and things to do to somehow hurts the casual player when he infact remains unaffected. What difference does it make for the 1.5m person if the limbo bar is 1.6 or 2.5m tall. It is unacceptable for a game thats last compilation was played for 10 years by everyone to now only cater to people who have played since release and still havn't reached a gear level that anyone playing for two weeks couldn't match.
I have to admit this section isn't entirely clear to me. I never suggested new content hurts casuals and I think anyone could agree that new content typically is good for everyone.
I was suggesting that some games are designed by nature (like PoE) to be that hardcore game that people with a lot of time or people who like big struggles to survive will love. At the same time not every game needs to be that game, games like Diablo are designed for larger audiences which, as I stated above, means mostly casual players who have limited time. With that in mind you can see where end game isn't always a concern because limited time and casual play means some players are happy with the content they have.
To be honest I find this an odd argument for people to get into because Diablo 2 really didn't have much... you have the exact same item grind, the difference was the items in D2 were just considered better because there was more variety in what they did. Not to mention the beloved D2 that everyone touts was after a decade of patches and an expansion pack. one could argue skill trees added to its longivity, but most people just found a build on a fan site and followed it, what happens then to that risk/reward system? Who cares because this build was found to work and is proven! Don't waste your time even trying.
Quite honestly I would rather have played more characters than build the 20 or so necromancers I made just to try different builds becuase I didn't believe in folowing the mold set by others. My reward for wanting to play with new specs was never having a high end character because rebuilding too so long and not even bothing to play some character types. charge me something make me get a resource that takes some time, but don't force me to start over.
This is something I probably could have put on my list of flaws for PoE, but I was on the fence about it. The skill drop system seems very cool in PoE untill you realize you have to get lucky to make a build you might be trying for. As an example, if you wanted to use GMP (Greater Multiple Projectiles) on a skill, you have to hope that a GMP skill drops. You can never ever get GMP from levels or quests. It is kind of exciting in some ways but I fully agree that casual players will probably hate that they may never get all the skills their class can use.
You also have to get very, very lucky on gear so that you have the right amount of sockets, the proper socket colors to be able to use the skill gems you may one day find (lol - right), then hope you rolled some HP and resists (sound familiar?), or you'll just end up getting steam rolled in Merciless and beyond.
I have an honest question for the PoE players out there.
What, specifically, do you think will cause you to continue to play PoE for years and years to come?
well I was having fun with my claw shadow, but I wasn't sure about longivity. However, something that does keep me comming back is to see all the new skills they've added If they can keep that up, I might keep trying it, but I'm afraid that will only last so long.
well I was having fun with my claw shadow, but I wasn't sure about longivity. However, something that does keep me comming back is to see all the new skills they've added If they can keep that up, I might keep trying it, but I'm afraid that will only last so long.
I'm not sure what a claw shadow is?
Anywho...what I'm asking is, gimme something intrinsic about the game itself that you (anyone) feel is to such a level of quality that you can see a similar draw as we had with Diablo 2. What is there intrinsically about the game that you feel may suck you in and create a similar "addiction" as Diablo 2 presented itself as to so many folks?
I say this because so many people are disappointed that D3 doesn't have D2's addictive, cocaine like draw, causing players to not be able to quit.
Shortly after making such comparison, people compare PoE to D3.
So I think it's fair to ask what is it, specifically, that is intrinsic to PoE as a whole that you think may cause you to play for years and years?
I have an honest question for the PoE players out there.
What, specifically, do you think will cause you to continue to play PoE for years and years to come?
For me, they need to make solo (non-trade) play more viable somehow. Either by upping drop rates or by creating a solo/self-found league that has increased drop rates to compensate for no trading. Currently if you ain't grouping your chances of progressing (outside of extreme lucky and getting that really rare great item) are significantly reduced next to someone that is playing the game in groups.
That would go a long way to get me back into the game and playing for a while longer.
EDIT: To answer the above, the crack like addiction would come from the map system. The concept is awesome. Random mobs, random map, random buffs to the mobs/zone, potential random permanent curses on you for the duration of the map ... all that you need to overcome - awesome! Problem is if you aren't part of the privileged few you will never get to see the content on a consistent basis that it actually is slightly depressing to go from running 70+ maps down to not having a single map ...
EDIT 2: And also for the competitive people there are races (sort of like the ladder system in D2) that will keep them occupied, but unfortunately there are only like maybe 200 people that compete in races on a consistent basis and even then it's always the same faces in the top 20.
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^^ the only guy who's videos are worth watching.
What I enjoy most about your vids is that you don't mumble and prattle on like a loon that's just talking to himself *cough cough kripparian cough
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
What do you mean? I ramble all the time. Dear god man, I do NOT shut up!
<3
Those would be the big ones. "combat" is gameplay which is arguably 90% of the reason of existence for any video game. PoE's gameplay isn't as smooth as it could be and there are huge spikes in damage and difficulty that sometimes feel unfair (think old inferno in D3). Some people like that so I don't know if it's what you'd call 'inferior'.
See, the fallacy here is that money makes everything. An indie game can have some of the most amazing gameplay ever. Money is most likely going to buy you graphics and time. Just look at the indie success of games like Braid and Bastion. Huge studios and cash are only means to an artistic vision and game design philosophy.
But to get back on topic, what does PoE do poorly?
Well when it comes to players like Krip/Alk who claim the game needs to be salvaged, I just think it comes to a mentality that every game they play has to have some kind of super end game sustainability. Not every single player game can have that kind of longevity. I also think that they focus on menial tasks like farming as efficiently as possible with the best build that has 1% improvement over the next build rather than just having fun with it.
I like to just play around, try new builds for fun. I like finding awesome items (which admittedly is still missing, but being worked on) and just doing something stupid to see if it'll work. I know that's not the same style as everyone else, but I wonder if D3 needs to be taken so 'seriously'. I also think this is why I don't care for PoE and TL2 as much as D3 (though Torchlight has been fun to play and there are ways around the respec issue in that game).
I don't know if I agree with that. The PoE map system is the perfect kind of system for the people that want that super end came sustainability. It's honestly a really cool innovative system they came up with.
However, I think I could add to my list of things PoE did poorly:
Now... the large maps are great once you're at the end and only want to kill monsters to farm them. it means you can just wade through any area you want, but they're just too large for exploration and getting through the first few difficulties. It's something I've struggled with while playing the game, forgot to mention it earlier
It's a great concept, but like a lot of the other things (particularly items) they beat it into shit with the orb system and the general way that RNG face-fucks you to death in that game.
Ever gotten to a level 70-ish map and not found ANY maps and had to go back to Solaris Temple (or wherever) to farm a new base-level map? That's not fun. It's so mind-numbing that it drives me away. I don't even know how to make a D3 analogy, but...
It'd be like being told that you didn't get the right kind of drops in Act 3 to make another Act 3 game, so you have to go back to Act 2 and farm that to be able to make an Act 3 game. It just reeks of completely artificial roadblocks that serve to cater to people who play lots and is just another point that really makes the game inaccessible to people who won't invest 4-5 hours per day in the game.
Maps are not a good system for casuals because your endgame access is based on RNG. Obviously they could simply up the droprates so it stops being a big issue, but until they do that (which they probably won't) it's a fairly major issue for non-professional gamers.
EDIT
In regards to the large maps. Very yes. It's horrible because the scenery is God-awful. It feels like the absolutely boring scenery was always pushing me to move on ASAP. I hated feeling like half of the areas made Dahlgur Oasis seem tiny.
I like what Kage said about PoE. I tried that game, and it's quite nice, but what threw me off was the actual skill system tied to rng sockets and rng drops and rng orbs to have another rng shot to your sockets. Yo DAWG!
I don't know, in Diablo 3 my character is quite functional with his skill sets, expecially now with Inferno being a looooot easier than release, i can play self found without stripping my hair to get that bloody weapon to have functional gem junctions.
Or maybe i just needed to roll an easier toon with an easier build to farm <.<' Or i'm getting old for this.
Now once you get in maps, if you aren't spending currency to roll "area is a maze", "area is larger", etc, you can guarantee the map pool that you have is going to go away and right back to Docks/Lunaris regardless of the IIQ precent that the maps have on them. Problem with that is if you aren't the lucky player and get items worth trading for massive amounts of currency you rarely ever get the currency back that that you spent to roll "area is a maze" and the few other map mods that actually yield maps. And if you are lucky enough to start getting getting some of the higher level maps you better be ready to dump massive amounts of currency into the map and then pray to the map Gods that they are nice on that day and provide you with a map of equal of greater value ... but you'll most likely end up with a some 68 maps and some 69 maps or no maps at all.
So you're back to Docks/Lunaris farming again or you are in the trade channel doing the same things most people did in D3 ... trade for their items, except instead of gold on an AH you're just spending orbs (hooooray!).
That to me why the map system is just as bad as farming Act 3, while a great idea, it leaves MUCH to be desired.
The problem stems exactly from what you said:
Developers these days are so worried about making content last so long to appease people that are playing upwards of 16 hours a day that the ARPG scene is slowly turning into an RNG nightmare of boring proportions.
Hopefully Dark Souls 2 will not get the same treatment.
I'm gonna keep this open for now, as the whole D3 vs PoE debate is something a lot of people are interested in, and the video has PoE gameplay with opinions on D3/PoE, so I guess we're still pretty much on track.
good to see a guy with great arguments and reasoning like KazeKage join the discussion as well, spot on points!
Ah, I see your point. I am a big fan of the concept, but I never got high enough in the game to try the execution. I fully see the point you raise about feeling like you have to go backards in order to go farwards again. I think the idea of the map system is where the Infernal machine and ubers came in for D3, but in D3 that feels very much optional while the maps of PoE feel pretty mandetory once you reach a certain point in the game (or so I've heard). So it goes from this really cool idea for extra content to feeling content locked. I'll reserve judgement untill I get to try it I think.
Yes and the maps just kept getting longer. Imagine my face when I found out act 3 had even BIGGER maps than acts 1 and 2 after playing in the closed beta for awhile. Whew.. soo many rooms and monsters.
This is something I probably could have put on my list of flaws for PoE, but I was on the fence about it. The skill drop system seems very cool in PoE untill you realize you have to get lucky to make a build you might be trying for. As an example, if you wanted to use GMP (Greater Multiple Projectiles) on a skill, you have to hope that a GMP skill drops. You can never ever get GMP from levels or quests. It is kind of exciting in some ways but I fully agree that casual players will probably hate that they may never get all the skills their class can use.
It's even more crazy when you add in Quality. My Arc Witch is doing fairly well, but I got lucky and found "Arc" with a high quality so it adds an additional chance to add status effects. If I wouldn't have found that I don't know if the build would be doing nearly as well. But there's good in that where builds in PoE can be greatly affected by items, which is something that Diablo 3 does lack. Once they get some legendaries with more risky and dynamic affixes on them, we might see some interesting D3 builds come out using them.
I'm not against builds tied to specific items, Diablo 2 was full of them and spiced up the game quite a lot (Whirlwind Assassin? Werewolf Barb?). I have this feeling that every build in PoE to be efficient needs that linked weapon with all those correct gems, but i never went past level 55, but it started to be quite tiresome as a Lightning Strike Templar to go on. I probably should have rolled something else.... yep.
Returning to Diablo 3.... the itemization is lacking and one dimensional. I hope to see different affixes, expecially in legendaries, to spice up builds. The best example i can give is the suggested Source that lets you summon two Hydras as a Wizard. For me that would be nice, i liked Hydras so much while i leveled my (now dead) Wizzy.
Thank you, sir, though I fear I may have derailed things! I'm not entirely sure what the main topic is anymore as I haven't even watched the video Blame work, they don't let me watch videos here. lol
This is very true. When it comes to Blizzard the money is only part, they have been making games for a very long time. It gives them an edge on a lot of competators.
I first think that's something of a harsh statement and I disagree about your finer points. I do agree that trial and error are important and that you should be rewarded for risk. However, I don't think that risk needs to be 10 hours of my time to correct.
If I make a build in PoE or even Diablo 2 and get an idea for a new one, I have to make a new character and try it. Most of that time is leveling back up to the level I already was in order to do it. What happens if when I finally get the skill points to make the build and find out that it didn't work the way I thought or I just didn't like it and wanted to go back?
Changing skills in D3 is quick and easy, but it does come with the risk it'll fail. Some builds require diffrent gear that required more time to farm, but at least I don't have to regain levels I've already played. If I had to level then farm gear again, that'd be twice as annoying. Any gamer who doesn't have a lot of time or maybe has other games they enjoy would feel that the effort required for a minimal 'reward' or being able to try something new just might not be worth it.
And on the subject of PoE taking too much planning I stand by that one. You don't need to have to spend hours of planning (which PoE does if you want to be able to survive high levels). I don't mind if I need to sit back and plan my skill route but don't make me have to sit down, chart graphs of what's the best survivable node to take and gives me .01% better survivablilty. That level of planning is great if you want to make a personal uber build that just tears through everything but PoE practically requires this level just to SURVIVE. Again, if there were a less annoying way to respec, it wouldn't even matter. I could go out, die a few times and realize I need to respec and try again.
In the end we're still talking risk and reward, but requiring huge amounts of time just to try a new skill or playstyle for your character type just doesn't seem like a worthwhile one. There are games to cater to people who like that kind of thing, but don't expect it to gain a large amount of popularity as most gamers tend to fall into that "casual" category that most vocal forum goers like to complain about.
Oh it's certainly the product of a beta. The only thing that annoys me about it is that it's not always easy to tell its happening and it can get you killed (don't think I'll ever hardcore in that game lol). This was listed more so because you wanted flaws and I tried to think of as many as I could off the top of my head
I have to admit this section isn't entirely clear to me. I never suggested new content hurts casuals and I think anyone could agree that new content typically is good for everyone.
I was suggesting that some games are designed by nature (like PoE) to be that hardcore game that people with a lot of time or people who like big struggles to survive will love. At the same time not every game needs to be that game, games like Diablo are designed for larger audiences which, as I stated above, means mostly casual players who have limited time. With that in mind you can see where end game isn't always a concern because limited time and casual play means some players are happy with the content they have.
To be honest I find this an odd argument for people to get into because Diablo 2 really didn't have much... you have the exact same item grind, the difference was the items in D2 were just considered better because there was more variety in what they did. Not to mention the beloved D2 that everyone touts was after a decade of patches and an expansion pack. one could argue skill trees added to its longivity, but most people just found a build on a fan site and followed it, what happens then to that risk/reward system? Who cares because this build was found to work and is proven! Don't waste your time even trying.
Quite honestly I would rather have played more characters than build the 20 or so necromancers I made just to try different builds becuase I didn't believe in folowing the mold set by others. My reward for wanting to play with new specs was never having a high end character because rebuilding too so long and not even bothing to play some character types. charge me something make me get a resource that takes some time, but don't force me to start over.
You also have to get very, very lucky on gear so that you have the right amount of sockets, the proper socket colors to be able to use the skill gems you may one day find (lol - right), then hope you rolled some HP and resists (sound familiar?), or you'll just end up getting steam rolled in Merciless and beyond.
What, specifically, do you think will cause you to continue to play PoE for years and years to come?
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well I was having fun with my claw shadow, but I wasn't sure about longivity. However, something that does keep me comming back is to see all the new skills they've added If they can keep that up, I might keep trying it, but I'm afraid that will only last so long.
I'm not sure what a claw shadow is?
Anywho...what I'm asking is, gimme something intrinsic about the game itself that you (anyone) feel is to such a level of quality that you can see a similar draw as we had with Diablo 2. What is there intrinsically about the game that you feel may suck you in and create a similar "addiction" as Diablo 2 presented itself as to so many folks?
I say this because so many people are disappointed that D3 doesn't have D2's addictive, cocaine like draw, causing players to not be able to quit.
Shortly after making such comparison, people compare PoE to D3.
So I think it's fair to ask what is it, specifically, that is intrinsic to PoE as a whole that you think may cause you to play for years and years?
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For me, they need to make solo (non-trade) play more viable somehow. Either by upping drop rates or by creating a solo/self-found league that has increased drop rates to compensate for no trading. Currently if you ain't grouping your chances of progressing (outside of extreme lucky and getting that really rare great item) are significantly reduced next to someone that is playing the game in groups.
That would go a long way to get me back into the game and playing for a while longer.
EDIT: To answer the above, the crack like addiction would come from the map system. The concept is awesome. Random mobs, random map, random buffs to the mobs/zone, potential random permanent curses on you for the duration of the map ... all that you need to overcome - awesome! Problem is if you aren't part of the privileged few you will never get to see the content on a consistent basis that it actually is slightly depressing to go from running 70+ maps down to not having a single map ...
EDIT 2: And also for the competitive people there are races (sort of like the ladder system in D2) that will keep them occupied, but unfortunately there are only like maybe 200 people that compete in races on a consistent basis and even then it's always the same faces in the top 20.