Just to be clear on what constitutes a handful, I'm talking about a half-dozen or more template builds per class. If you're willing to accept build variant by 1 or 2 skills then the number of viable builds for non-wd is pretty large considering how young the game is.
Still feels a bit cramped to me
Well gosh, it's almost like this game has only been out for 3 months. Kinks to work out? No way! But it's definitely mob mechanics that are broken, and not just skills that need adjustments after hundreds of thousands of hours in playtime have determined they need tweaked. I'll ignore for now the fact that build diversity availability is directly correlated to what difficulty/act you play in, in addition to how much gear (and individual stats) you have.
For some reason - definitely not because they're forced to tank with their faces the majority of the time
Yes, because clearly between Jailer, Fast, Teleportation, Mortar and Vortex and a plethora of mobs that have one of those as an inherent ability, ranged classes are not taking almost as much hits regardless.
Also, Monks and Barbs both have VASTLY superior defensive skills/passives that help them staying alive. Whatever the reason may be, I find it infinately easier to stay alive with my Monk or Barb than with my Wizard or Demon Hunter. Given the game as it is, that 30% extra damage taken makes no sense and just makes certain packs more frustrating.
If you're taking as many hits as a melee with your ranged class (unless specifically building a melee-style talent selection), you're doing it wrong; or more probably, relying on hyperbole to make a point that doesn't exist.
As someone who plays both a DH and Barbarian in Act 3+ Inferno, I call BS.
Venom Hydra is by a LARGE margin the biggest DPS component of kiting builds.
Also, why your thread title is correct your reasoning is a bunch of crap, You know elite champs kill build diversity? It's because they kill you in under 5 hits no matter how good your gear is. This fact makes the following builds possible:
If you die in 5 hits then you're playing a glass cannon. Of course Hydra will be more effective if you only buff your damage. My statement is that it should also be viable (though less potent, of course) even if you don't.
And I've found that stacking 70% armor and Resist All along with at least 40K life makes it possible to survive most attacks without using some crazy skill combo. All I need is Energy Armor. The rest is just crowd control and damagers.
Who cares about build diversity? If you're enjoying the game, then so be it.
I'd enjoy it even more if I felt I wasn't forced into a set of build templates. I'd imagine a lot of other people would as well. Hence the desire for change.
Actually, the NV Buff kills the build diversity...
You switch your Skills around = Buff gone = No Loot = boring Game.
Until this gets changed, we are all stuck with some sort of Cookie cutter "all purpose" Builds.
Which to be honest...is quite retarded.
The way I see it, removing the NV restriction wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it would only make things worse. Everyone would be using all of the template builds for each class instead of choosing just one.
An 18% DoT? Is that damage even visible with the naked eye? Or perhaps champions have a weaker resistance to Poison for some reason? I guess I'll have to check that out.
Do you even play the game?
Venom Hydra is by a LARGE margin the biggest DPS component of kiting builds.
Also, why your thread title is correct your reasoning is a bunch of crap, You know elite champs kill build diversity? It's because they kill you in under 5 hits no matter how good your gear is. This fact makes the following builds possible:
1) Glass Cannon builds that destroy anything before it's even near. These builds avoid ranged packs as much as they can and fall apart when they run into fast on an inherently fast mob. Ironically this is the cheapest way to farm inferno, but you have to be good at dodging stuff.
2) Supertank builds that can tank most packs indefinately by using some pseudo-broken combination of spells and talents (critical mass builds, 4-set Nats builds) or by being a melee class (that for some reason take 30% less damage from everything) and stacking defensive stats and skills up to the wazoo. Combined with life on hit, of course. These builds fall apart on shielded mobs and tend to skip molten and/or arcane enchanted packs.
3) Kiting builds that can take a few hits, and are basically a safer (but significantly more expensive) version of glass cannons builds.
Anything but one of these three will lead to nothing but frustration and a lot of deaths. Since about 80% of the skills in the game don't fit into one of the above builds, no build diversity is possible. I'm not convinced 1.04 or even 1.1 will fix anything of this, because unless they (again) axe the ridiculous damage output of mobs in act3+ (and some mobs in act 2... broodlings and accursed I'm talking to you) nothing will change, really.
Who cares if Disintegrate will suddenly do 400% weapon damage? It's not like you can stand there and channel it.
Who cares about build diversity? If you're enjoying the game, then so be it.
I'd enjoy it even more if I felt I wasn't forced into a set of build templates. I'd imagine a lot of other people would as well. Hence the desire for change.
Would you enjoin it more if you came with the idea of those build templates?
You want your build to have worked in Inferno like in Hell but apparently there are smarterr people who found better combinations (plrl. =/= 1) of skills.
Accept it or get better at building/analyzing skills! Your statement about the Hydra is absurd.
It was until I started using Energy Armor with a shield to tank the damage. Now that I've farmed enough gear I switched the shield for a source, but the build is left unchanged. I'd link the profile, but I'm a bit apprehensive about my Battle Tag in the URL. So here's some screenshots instead:
Even with the increased DPS the low-damage skills don't seem worth the time. So it's Arcane Orb spamming for me :|
If that were the case, I would be complaining about the game in general and not the specific things I mentioned. No, I've deduced those after trying dozens of builds in Act 1 Inferno runs.
Edit: Get yourself a better weapon. I can't see if there are any other good affixes on it, but it doesn't look like it when the best one is 91 Int... 100k Gold (which you can earn in an hour in Nightmare or Hell) can get you something much, much better now than two weeks ago.
The weapon isn't from the AH, I got it in a drop, and it's full stats are:
iLvl: 63
400-801 Damage
1.4 Attacks Per Second
281-580 Lightning Damage
+110 Stength
+91 Intelligence
+109 Vitality
+14 Maximum Arcane Power
Gem Slot
Anyways I don't think that matters. The problem of the "better gear enables more builds" mentality is that when they get better stats, most people won't use them to farm the acts they're currently farming with a different build, they'll use them to start farming the next act with the same build. Because why gimp yourself if you can progress instead? And when you do proceed to the next act, mob resistances go up and you end up in the same situation you were in before.
Anyways I don't think that matters. The problem of the "better gear enables more builds" mentality is that when they get better stats, most people won't use them to farm the acts they're currently farming with a different build, they'll use them to start farming the next act with the same build. Because why gimp yourself if you can progress instead? And when you do proceed to the next act, mob resistances go up and you end up in the same situation you were in before.
This is not what I experianced.
I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.
I started to farm act1 to the point that nothing could kill me there.
Then I got a good off-hand drop and started to test the WW-build. First with really cheap +% crit items to see how it handel act1. It was ok not much worse then the revange build.
Soon I got better items for the build(WW-tornado) and now I can farm act3.
So for me, "better gear enables more builds" because like in D2 here too are items that enable certain builds and those who excel other.
One thing that bums me out about the fact that we're even having this conversation, is the fact that we don't do as many boss runs in D3. They're SO much fun for the most part, and we just don't have any incentive to do them
I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.
See, that's the thing. Once you've finished Inferno it no longer matters what you're using. When I say "build diversity", I mean build diversity between when you first enter Inferno and the first time you beat Diablo in Inferno. That period during which you don't have the perfect gear for a specific technique.
One thing that bums me out about the fact that we're even having this conversation, is the fact that we don't do as many boss runs in D3. They're SO much fun for the most part, and we just don't have any incentive to do them
I do boss runs every time I log on. I run around the different areas loading up on NV for a while, then go for a boss.
I think they are working to make build diversity more favorable with each patch. As a barb, I needed to sword and board to survive anything act2+. Now I can run a few different specs and still be successful and efficient in any of the acts. The problem is that I love my current setup (WW/Sprint), so I don't want to change the way I play. If I ever have to go back to sword and board with a big defensive spec, I'll be really pissed off.
I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.
See, that's the thing. Once you've finished Inferno it no longer matters what you're using. When I say "build diversity", I mean build diversity between when you first enter Inferno and the first time you beat Diablo in Inferno. That period during which you don't have the perfect gear for a specific technique.
again "better gear enables more builds"
In the period you talk if I got better gear I would have try new things.
I understand Buids not only as skills combination but also items. Like in D2 if you have a helm with lycantropy you can make wolfBarb, if you have good stormshield you can make a Zerker.( I don't remember all the names and those are not all needed items for the builds).
I did try trowing barb because I found a belt with weapon trow and saw it has potential just it was not fun for me.
And 1.03 was first step to build diversity because we didn't need no more such high def. stats. Again good example as how gear enabled more builds
The problem is that I love my current setup (WW/Sprint), so I don't want to change the way I play. If I ever have to go back to sword and board with a big defensive spec, I'll be really pissed off.
Consider that some classes don't even give you the option of using the build you love. WDs seem to suffer the most from this.
Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.
Skills are rightly designed to fulfill designers' (and players') fantasies, elites should be balanced around that.
I'm guessing those are the two big schools of thought in the matter. I myself prefer Capitano's, since it makes the game less about min-maxing and more about actual player skill.
again "better gear enables more builds"
In the period you talk if I got better gear I would have try new things.
I understand Buids not only as skills combination but also items. Like in D2 if you have a helm with lycantropy you can make wolfBarb, if you have good stormshield you can make a Zerker.( I don't remember all the names and those are not all needed items for the builds).
I did try trowing barb because I found a belt with weapon trow and saw it has potential just it was not fun for me.
And 1.03 was first step to build diversity because we didn't need no more such high def. stats. Again good example as how gear enabled more builds
So perhaps they need to make everything less of a gear-check? It would sure solve a lot of problems. The biggest one being the feeling that you have to use the AH.
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Well gosh, it's almost like this game has only been out for 3 months. Kinks to work out? No way! But it's definitely mob mechanics that are broken, and not just skills that need adjustments after hundreds of thousands of hours in playtime have determined they need tweaked. I'll ignore for now the fact that build diversity availability is directly correlated to what difficulty/act you play in, in addition to how much gear (and individual stats) you have.
For some reason - definitely not because they're forced to tank with their faces the majority of the time <_<
If you're taking as many hits as a melee with your ranged class (unless specifically building a melee-style talent selection), you're doing it wrong; or more probably, relying on hyperbole to make a point that doesn't exist.
As someone who plays both a DH and Barbarian in Act 3+ Inferno, I call BS.
And I've found that stacking 70% armor and Resist All along with at least 40K life makes it possible to survive most attacks without using some crazy skill combo. All I need is Energy Armor. The rest is just crowd control and damagers.
.
Oh, I know I would. With great delight. And a Diamond Skin with Prism like I use to in Hell difficulty.
Actually, the NV Buff kills the build diversity...
You switch your Skills around = Buff gone = No Loot = boring Game.
Until this gets changed, we are all stuck with some sort of Cookie cutter "all purpose" Builds.
Which to be honest...is quite retarded.
And why exactly would that be a problem ?
We are talking about a ARPG here...not a friggen MMO.
This.
Would you enjoin it more if you came with the idea of those build templates?
You want your build to have worked in Inferno like in Hell but apparently there are smarterr people who found better combinations (plrl. =/= 1) of skills.
Accept it or get better at building/analyzing skills! Your statement about the Hydra is absurd.
until the OP link his profile I assume is this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK1SmUKTq14
Even with the increased DPS the low-damage skills don't seem worth the time. So it's Arcane Orb spamming for me :|
If that were the case, I would be complaining about the game in general and not the specific things I mentioned. No, I've deduced those after trying dozens of builds in Act 1 Inferno runs.
iLvl: 63
400-801 Damage
1.4 Attacks Per Second
281-580 Lightning Damage
+110 Stength
+91 Intelligence
+109 Vitality
+14 Maximum Arcane Power
Gem Slot
Anyways I don't think that matters. The problem of the "better gear enables more builds" mentality is that when they get better stats, most people won't use them to farm the acts they're currently farming with a different build, they'll use them to start farming the next act with the same build. Because why gimp yourself if you can progress instead? And when you do proceed to the next act, mob resistances go up and you end up in the same situation you were in before.
This is not what I experianced.
I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.
I started to farm act1 to the point that nothing could kill me there.
Then I got a good off-hand drop and started to test the WW-build. First with really cheap +% crit items to see how it handel act1. It was ok not much worse then the revange build.
Soon I got better items for the build(WW-tornado) and now I can farm act3.
So for me, "better gear enables more builds" because like in D2 here too are items that enable certain builds and those who excel other.
I do boss runs every time I log on. I run around the different areas loading up on NV for a while, then go for a boss.
I think they are working to make build diversity more favorable with each patch. As a barb, I needed to sword and board to survive anything act2+. Now I can run a few different specs and still be successful and efficient in any of the acts. The problem is that I love my current setup (WW/Sprint), so I don't want to change the way I play. If I ever have to go back to sword and board with a big defensive spec, I'll be really pissed off.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
Fixed for you.
again "better gear enables more builds"
In the period you talk if I got better gear I would have try new things.
I understand Buids not only as skills combination but also items. Like in D2 if you have a helm with lycantropy you can make wolfBarb, if you have good stormshield you can make a Zerker.( I don't remember all the names and those are not all needed items for the builds).
I did try trowing barb because I found a belt with weapon trow and saw it has potential just it was not fun for me.
And 1.03 was first step to build diversity because we didn't need no more such high def. stats. Again good example as how gear enabled more builds
I'm guessing those are the two big schools of thought in the matter. I myself prefer Capitano's, since it makes the game less about min-maxing and more about actual player skill.
So perhaps they need to make everything less of a gear-check? It would sure solve a lot of problems. The biggest one being the feeling that you have to use the AH.