There is a fundamental flaw with your entire post.
Diablo is and has always been an ActionRPG (ARPG) game. It is in no way shape or form a true RPG. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG which is a whole other kettle of fish I won't get into here.
There is a fundamental difference between RPG and ARPG. RPG's tell a story you actually care about, they have decision points. They have characters who matter to you and you grow attached to.
Excellent examples of true RPG's are Ultima 4/5/6/7 , Baldur's Gate Series, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age Origins, The Witcher, Mass Effect 1&2. All these games had one thing in common, after playing the game, everyone remembers the story, they remember the super interesting array of sidekicks.
Combat was vastly different in all the games as were items collected. And it made total sense to start at level 1 with nothing and end up at level XXX with super items and kill the boss, and while combat was important it was always 2nd to the character development and the story.
In ARPG's combat, combat is king. In fact many don't really care about the story, or if they do its only on the first play through. After that its all about getting better items and being more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diablo series. But please don't lump it together with RPG's.
Don't get me wrong. The absolute best RPG of all time, would have the combat and never ending end game of the Diablo series, the Plot and story of Mass Effect, the super memorable sidekicks of Baldur's Gate/Dragon's Age, and the world building of Skyrim and heart of the Ultima series. But until we get to that perfect nervana (If we ever do) please don't lump Diablo into the RPG genre, it is an ARPG.
Just because YOU don't care or pay attention to ARPG stories doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.
Myself, and I'm sure many others, remember vividly the story of Diablo I & II and CAN'T WAIT for the continuation in III.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
From this I can see that you probably don't care about how the things you say can negatively effect how people look at you, or how people feel about themselves. However, just in case you do care but are unaware, I'm telling you that comments like this don't help get any points across and only make people mad, sad, or just straight up ignore you.
There are several mechanics in the game that my it possible for my girlfriend, who is a huge rpg fan, to easily understand and get right into a new type of rpg. These same mechanics allow me, a hardcore videogamer, to dip right in and get to doing exactly what I want to do with this game. I am in my twenties and pulling a 3.5 gpa at a major university. I am sure most people that frequent this site and these forums are mature and developed, and also enjoy these game mechanics. Do not call me a idiot or a retarded kid.
Its in the beta still...The game hasn't been launch yet, they can do what ever they want to the game to ensure the best quailty of the game at launch. Some people dont like it cuz it seems to different. Its been 8 years since Diablo 2, lots of new systems and ideas are gonna be involved to have good reactions from people.
I still don't understand why they changed the skill system, I'm not playing a beta so it's hard for me to understand what was wrong with the previous one. From what I saw from videos, in the old one it was a lot easier to change your skill set up, apparently on this one it takes more time to switch skills?
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I am in the beta and have experience both of the latest skill systems. The old system was cool to me because it allowed you to see all of you abilities in one organized window. The thing that bothered me most about it was the fact that there was really no relation between the skill slot on your skill ui and the button you would actually press to activate the ability. This window also only took up half of the screen, which I don't really care about - I have not had any bad or good experiences with this window size so far. The new ui is designed to be more integrated with the buttons you press to activate the ability, which is pretty cool to me. The thing I don't like is the fact that you have to dig through the ui to find the abilities you want to tie to any particular button. There is also no auto attack for some reason. I wanted to see how my DH would swing a javalin and I couldnt :(. Anayway I am hopeful that Blizz will tamper with the new ui and make it right. I believe this new ui is a step in the right direction even though I don't currently like it as much. It has more potential.
In D2 the emphasis was too much on character planning to get a great/perfect char.
In D3 that is reversed, so people that really enjoyed calculating skill points and spent more time planning their perfect char with weapon switch and all might find D3 to "easy". They miss the planning part.
I say D3 gives you more time for action, and you can plan as you go, be agile. You do not have to calculate your whole char including all items before you start it.
This is really what I think people tend to be upset about. Diablo 2, as an ARPG, borrowed some of the traditional strategizing gameplay from its RPG roots and merged that with more fast-paced action elements. People that really loved this mix were expecting more of the same from Diablo 3. What they are getting, though, is a game that has moved farther from the RPG side of its roots and closer to the action end of things. I think Diablo 3 could be better described as an isometric shooter than it could an RPG.
This shift makes perfect sense from Blizzard's perspective. Our society as a whole seems to constantly be moving toward shorter attention spans which makes focusing more and more on the action aspects of a game a smart business decision. This is disheartening for those of us that really enjoy sitting down and thinking about how we play a game as much as actually clicking the buttons. I'm sure Diablo 3 will be a great game and that I'll enjoy playing it. Its just not quite the successor to Diablo 2 that many people were expecting and looking forward to.
And stat allocation being customization? Please, every build in D2 is "calculate your required str based on wearing all gear, charms only, or with nothing, based on the best gear that you've already made a list of, and every other point goes to VIT".
The problem with this argument is that it disguises the real issue with the design. Sure everybody pretty much used the same rule when picking stats, but that doesn't mean everybody picked the same actual values for each stat. There were actual interesting decisions that effected stat allocation in Diablo 2. Mainly, how heavy an armor did you want to be able to wear and, did you want to use a weapon with a Dexterity requirement, and did you want to max your block rate (and if so, with which shield).
Once you had made those decisions, then allocating your stat points was mostly a mechanical process following the above rule, but that doesn't mean the decisions that went into "how much STR and DEX do I need" were pointless. In Diablo 3 those decisions have been completely removed. Everyone will just use the heaviest armor, weapon types will be almost completely interchangeable, the block mechanic is almost an afterthought, and things like armor weight (light/medium/heavy) have been completely removed from the game.
D2 : play numerous builds until you have eliminated the flawed ones (which is a major design flaw)
D3 : tune your character and discover its strengths and weaknesses as you play
I don't think anybody is really advocating for set-in-stone choices that you can never change. Being able to say "oops, I made a mistake and need to fix it" should certainly be allowed. Experimentation is also a great thing. Diablo 2 solved these problems eventually by allowing people to respec their stats and skills. Instead of doing something similar in Diablo 3 they decided to use a system that basically gives you 20 points in every skill at the same time and increases the number of hotkeys from 2 to 6, but puts a short cooldown on how often you can swap which skill in bound to which key.
One of the core aspects when deciding which "build" to use for a character in Diablo 2 was the trade-offs that different skill combos included. A single-element sorceress would have more powerful spells than a tri-elementalist, but had serious problems when dealing with certain immunes. Because switching skills in Diablo 3 is so easy, these sorts of trade-offs are essentially gone. You can pick whichever skills make you generally feel the most powerful without worrying about the potential downsides to those skills. If you hit a situation that's a little harder, you can just swap to a different skill. You have all the power of every class skills and none of their weaknesses at your disposal.
Like I said, this doesn't mean the game will be bad, it just won't be the heir to Diablo 2 that many people were expecting.
they're hopefully not setting a new standard for development time ...
I would rather see all companies taking their time and doing good games like blizzard do instead of asking us to wait for one for half of this time and then releasing something with balance bugs which I stops playing after 2 weeks as I'm overpowered (look Skyrim for example).
I'm good with all changed. I just hope they don't allow skill changes to be done in arena (at very least when you're dead).
Why not, it's part of personal skill to do such changes fast and on the fly. If you have two players playing wizard you want them to be able to win by fast thinking and not just by fast clicking.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
From this I can see that you probably don't care about how the things you say can negatively effect how people look at you, or how people feel about themselves. However, just in case you do care but are unaware, I'm telling you that comments like this don't help get any points across and only make people mad, sad, or just straight up ignore you.
There are several mechanics in the game that my it possible for my girlfriend, who is a huge rpg fan, to easily understand and get right into a new type of rpg. These same mechanics allow me, a hardcore videogamer, to dip right in and get to doing exactly what I want to do with this game. I am in my twenties and pulling a 3.5 gpa at a major university. I am sure most people that frequent this site and these forums are mature and developed, and also enjoy these game mechanics. Do not call me a idiot or a retarded kid.
From this I can see that you probably don't care about how gutting many of the mechanics that allow strategic thinking about a game can negatively effect how people who enjoy those aspects of the game feel about the game. However, just in case you do care but are unaware, I'm telling you that some people like to play their video games like they would play a game of chess--the thinking and planning and strategizing is as important, if not more so, than the actual clicking hack-and-slash part.
This person could have made the point much more tactfully, but what he said definitely captures the frustration that people like me feel each time we find out that another theory-crafting aspect of the game has been cut to make the game "easier for beginners to pickup". I can't really fault Blizzard for moving in this direction with their games. There are a lot more people out there who only really care about the hack-and-slash aspects compared to those that care deeply about the strategy side of things, so its a good business decision on their part (and it clearly works to get people like your girlfriend to play the game who might not have otherwise). Knowing this, though, doesn't make it any less frustrating that the game isn't everything I wish it was (especially when Diablo 2 was a better "thinking man's game" than Diablo 3 seems likely to be).
Our society as a whole seems to constantly be moving toward shorter attention spans which makes focusing more and more on the action aspects of a game a smart business decision.
Fundamentally the game is still the exact same. (ARPG where you massacre thousands of demons with spells.) You're giving to much value to the concept of putting points/skills into a character. That's just a small part of the overall experience.
Diablo 2 was very much white-knuckle action with emphasis on twitch reflexes. If anything Diablo 2 made it even more twitchy than Diablo 1, adding a run button and several other modifications to how combat flowed. You're also talking extremes here, sure most players who wanted to farm Hell needed some sort of "super smart" calculated build, but for the most part, in Diablo 2 you could throw just about anything together and click your way through Normal and Nightmare. I know I did when I first started playing. Even saying that, figuring out to put 20 points into Cold Mastery and Frozen Orb isn't exactly rocket science.
So the argument that people suddenly want instant-gratification and can't pay attention anymore and that Diablo 3 is responding to that isn't a fair one, because the game play changes aren't all that drastic, and Diablo 3 really isn't the huge departure from series norms that people seem to believe.
I think the notion that Diablo 2 was a thinking man's game isn't accurate at all.
Here's the difficult thinking that went into Diablo 2.
Find out what gear you want and plan stats accordingly.
Find out what your main skills are, put 20 points into them.
Vitality.
Then go out and hack n slash to your hearts content.
While I like some of the changes and dislike some of the other changes (overall being happy with the changes from D2 to D3), I have one big objection.
Blizzard is NOT setting a new standard for RPGs. Part of the problem is, I don't even consider it to be much of an RPG, Action-RPG would be more accurate. Personally, I believe the term "hack'n slash" suits it better. Because that's what it is. If you start saying it sets a new standard for RPGs then you're also dealing with Baldur Gate like games and such.
And remember, they also said:
"For some games it absolutely might be, because they have a game style, pacing, or other mechanics that work really well with that kind of system."
It's clear that they're simply doing the changes because it works best for *this* game.
They themselves know very well they are not setting a new standard
I say they do their best to be a role model for feature ARPGs (not RPGs but who knows). I like these flexibility more than not. I think others will come to think the same way, they just don't know it yet
I think Torchlight 2 have a better system of skills then this papamole and if they think people will buy their game just because is says Blizzard on it their wrong, people bought their games because their were good, SC2 was the first sign here comes the next fail.
Please, not TL2 disscusion. If anybody here was really considering that game they would move to TL forums already and be exited about that game.
IMO, TL2 is to slow to be ARPG and if it's not ARPG then it's comparing apples and bananas which we should not do here.
2) I havent spoken about character customization I my post, neither have I mentioned skill points. I have mentioned character planning, which is a higher arching concept. You are just repeating what blizzard told you to repeat. Character planning is that wonderful thing, where before you start the game, you imagine your playthrough, and then you procede to implement it inside the game, enjoying seeing your character get stronger and stronger, not because the game automatically makes you stronger, but because you planned it that way. It is your baby and you are growing it. Inside D3 this is impossible. It is streamlined, you get to pick all the skills and use the strongest at each level, and the item drops are random, except when you decide to use AH ( see what I mean).
And you delete (kill your baby), when you find out your planning wasn't that good, because you didn't know what it is like in hell or inferno. And then start over.
No thanks I prefer freedom and a situation oriented planning.
PlugY was the most popular mod, for Diablo 2, for one simple reason. You could reset your skills.
Almost everyone wanted that, and now that is Blizzard who is giving you that option, everyone start complaining.
And what's the problem with the AH? Diablo is mostly a single and co-op game why does it bother you if someone spends thousands of dollars for gearing up?
For both skill reset and AH, if you don't like it don't use it. It’s as simple as that.
I believe that most of those people who wants to be locked to skills did not paly that much of D2 as they would know how big of a whore it was not to be able to respec after 50 lvls when you relaized you don't like your build for any reason.
Diablo 2 was very much white-knuckle action with emphasis on twitch reflexes. If anything Diablo 2 made it even more twitchy than Diablo 2, adding a run button and several other modifications to how combat flowed. You're also talking extremes here, sure most players who wanted to farm Hell needed some sort of "super smart" calculated build, but for the most part, in Diablo 2 you could throw just about anything together and click your way through Normal and Nightmare. I know I did when I first started playing. Even saying that, figuring out to put 20 points into Cold Mastery and Frozen Orb isn't exactly rocket science.
Diablo 2 definitely had the "action" part of "action-RPG", but it also had the "RPG" part in terms of having to make meaningful decisions that determined how you would play your character. Even in your example, there was the decision to be a cold sorceress and the additional decision to specialize into Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery. There were probably additional decisions about what types of weapons and armor you wanted to use as you leveled up and, thus, how many points you would put into which stats.
Diablo 3, on the other hand, doesn't have these "RPG" type decisions. You don't make an Arcane Wizard or a Fire Wizard, you just make a Wizard. You may have chosen a different set of skills to put on your hotkeys than some other Wizard, but this isn't really a decision that defines who you are as a character when you can swap them around so easily. Mastering the skill system in Diablo 3 isn't going to be about coming up with a "build" of 6 skills to pick and stick with, its going to be about learning when to pull out each individual skill for a given situation. All Wizards have the same set of tools at all times, so there's no difference between the strengths and weaknesses that any two Wizards have.
You know what I say.....screw having to place stats, whats the point I would rather concentrate on more important parts of a build. As far as I am concerned finding the right gear for the particular build I am striving for will be more enjoyable. In D2 you had a build for this and a build for that and when you gave them gear or even looked at other players gear on builds they were all wearing the same stuff.....yeah those builds were unique alright...bull. I like where D3 is going and 90% of the whiners here have not got a clue because no one has played the full game. How do you can possibly know whether the things in the 1/3 of act one is even remotely a problem further into the game.
People are saying 6 skills not enough.....boo hoo, what did you have in D2? 2 skills on your bar and hot keys on the others but how many did you need to use in given moment....3 or 4 most times ended a fight. You had no choice in D2 with the skills, you either took this tree or that tree and if you mixed it up you ended being too weak. D3 lets you become anything you like with out being penalized, one post I saw was someone wanted the skills be locked and if you made a bad choice then be penalized.....what the hell for!!! I want to enjoy the game not be told off for playing it wrong.
All those cry babies about no trading because of the auction house WTF!!! read more you can trade in the game window and if I am correct I remember seeing a trade chat window on the new chat. I could say more but people need to realize what they are getting and remember the way it was, D3 is much better then D2, I try going back to D2 to play but it so frustrating wishing it had a lot of stuff that D3 has.
This game is going to rock and will be playing it a long time to come.
Diablo 2 definitely had the "action" part of "action-RPG", but it also had the "RPG" part in terms of having to make meaningful decisions that determined how you would play your character. Even in your example, there was the decision to be a cold sorceress and the additional decision to specialize into Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery. There were probably additional decisions about what types of weapons and armor you wanted to use as you leveled up and, thus, how many points you would put into which stats.
There is still the possibility that items can fill this role of decision making and focusing on a certain aspect of your character. If you like Arcane skills, you can focus on Arcane-enhancing gear for a while on your Wizard. Bashiok even said that people are dismissing the importance of itemization too quickly in these discussions.
There is a fundamental flaw with your entire post.
Diablo is and has always been an ActionRPG (ARPG) game. It is in no way shape or form a true RPG. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG which is a whole other kettle of fish I won't get into here.
There is a fundamental difference between RPG and ARPG. RPG's tell a story you actually care about, they have decision points. They have characters who matter to you and you grow attached to.
Excellent examples of true RPG's are Ultima 4/5/6/7 , Baldur's Gate Series, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age Origins, The Witcher, Mass Effect 1&2. All these games had one thing in common, after playing the game, everyone remembers the story, they remember the super interesting array of sidekicks.
Combat was vastly different in all the games as were items collected. And it made total sense to start at level 1 with nothing and end up at level XXX with super items and kill the boss, and while combat was important it was always 2nd to the character development and the story.
In ARPG's combat, combat is king. In fact many don't really care about the story, or if they do its only on the first play through. After that its all about getting better items and being more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diablo series. But please don't lump it together with RPG's.
Don't get me wrong. The absolute best RPG of all time, would have the combat and never ending end game of the Diablo series, the Plot and story of Mass Effect, the super memorable sidekicks of Baldur's Gate/Dragon's Age, and the world building of Skyrim and heart of the Ultima series. But until we get to that perfect nervana (If we ever do) please don't lump Diablo into the RPG genre, it is an ARPG.
Just because YOU don't care or pay attention to ARPG stories doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.
Myself, and I'm sure many others, remember vividly the story of Diablo I & II and CAN'T WAIT for the continuation in III.
Sure you remember the story, but there weren't decisions that you made to level up Cain's gear/skills/etc like you would in Mass Effect or those other RPG games. I think that's where he's trying to make the difference. There is definitely the story/plot that is there but it isn't as engaging as most classic RPG styles - hence the ARPG.
When I first heard of Diablo 3 I was thrilled. They are going to make a sequel to one of my favorite games ever and they are going to make it better. And from what I have seen they are not only making it better, they are making it legendary.
I agree with the OP and Baretta. The rest of you Nancies just need to take a chill pill.
I think most of these arguments boil down to the fact that there are two differing OPINIONS on this matter. There is group A that enjoys things added to the game that make things easier/convenient. There is group B that thinks there should be more limitations on things within the game.
For me, I think D2 went too far into Group B where you need to create a new character to make any changes. However, characters in D3 are too far into Group A for me so I'm not happy with that either. Personally, I was hoping for more of a middle group but I think they went from one extreme to the other.
Within reason, I don't like things being given to me in games. For example, when I played Guild Wars, I really hated that you didn't have to travel to different cities, you just clicked on the map and bam you're in that city. Is it more convenient than WoW? Yes. Is it more fun? Not for me.
It really depends on what you're looking for in the game.
Well, they could add special mode (like hardcore) but for those people who want to be restircted by more rpg like mechanics. But I think they want all to try this way of playing Diablo and to see if they will change their mind about it. If they don't I believe blizzard will add a new mode later on (maybe with an expansion).
Quote 1: I agree. A lot of the points made by the creater of this thread are valid but that person is yet to realize that by removing runes as a physical object that you can seek out and find is a missed one. That's part of the adventure and fun of what makes diablo, diablo for me. I like to explore and EARn my rewards by looking for items, not just by blasting obviouse main and mini bosses; that is indeed for people who seems to narrow minded to not want to venture off and enjoy the quualities of the game. Part of the reason you choose a specific character is so that you obtain that character's attributes is it not? tell me why each character should have the ability to do as every other character can then? why not just have one character named "GOD" to choose from at the beginning?
Quote 2: In reply to quote 2, im a bit enthusiatic about the auction house while at the same time I am not. It peeves me a bit to think that i could spend hours and hours discovering a really nice peice of armour, while some shallow player who plays for a few weeks gets "bored" with diablo 3 and decides "meh, ill just buy my armor and kick every bosses A SS". To me, that takes away the depth of the game and the true feel that when you came across something valuable, it truely is valuable and the abundance of such an item may not exist. To me, AH is a bit Shallow of a feature, at least when people wanted to buy stuff in D2 they had to take the effort in finding a place to buy it which might actually have deterred some people.
Anyway, all rather valid poits but that's my input.
Regarding 1. There is only so much Blizzard can do in a "reasonable" time. I think next step would be to choose any body and have access to all 600 abilities (runes included) but it would require to much balancing. I bet blizzard would like to have it otherwise. Oh, you can name it God even now if you want (probably ;))
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Gotta be honest. I lol'd.
Just because YOU don't care or pay attention to ARPG stories doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.
Myself, and I'm sure many others, remember vividly the story of Diablo I & II and CAN'T WAIT for the continuation in III.
There are several mechanics in the game that my it possible for my girlfriend, who is a huge rpg fan, to easily understand and get right into a new type of rpg. These same mechanics allow me, a hardcore videogamer, to dip right in and get to doing exactly what I want to do with this game. I am in my twenties and pulling a 3.5 gpa at a major university. I am sure most people that frequent this site and these forums are mature and developed, and also enjoy these game mechanics. Do not call me a idiot or a retarded kid.
I am in the beta and have experience both of the latest skill systems. The old system was cool to me because it allowed you to see all of you abilities in one organized window. The thing that bothered me most about it was the fact that there was really no relation between the skill slot on your skill ui and the button you would actually press to activate the ability. This window also only took up half of the screen, which I don't really care about - I have not had any bad or good experiences with this window size so far. The new ui is designed to be more integrated with the buttons you press to activate the ability, which is pretty cool to me. The thing I don't like is the fact that you have to dig through the ui to find the abilities you want to tie to any particular button. There is also no auto attack for some reason. I wanted to see how my DH would swing a javalin and I couldnt :(. Anayway I am hopeful that Blizz will tamper with the new ui and make it right. I believe this new ui is a step in the right direction even though I don't currently like it as much. It has more potential.
This is really what I think people tend to be upset about. Diablo 2, as an ARPG, borrowed some of the traditional strategizing gameplay from its RPG roots and merged that with more fast-paced action elements. People that really loved this mix were expecting more of the same from Diablo 3. What they are getting, though, is a game that has moved farther from the RPG side of its roots and closer to the action end of things. I think Diablo 3 could be better described as an isometric shooter than it could an RPG.
This shift makes perfect sense from Blizzard's perspective. Our society as a whole seems to constantly be moving toward shorter attention spans which makes focusing more and more on the action aspects of a game a smart business decision. This is disheartening for those of us that really enjoy sitting down and thinking about how we play a game as much as actually clicking the buttons. I'm sure Diablo 3 will be a great game and that I'll enjoy playing it. Its just not quite the successor to Diablo 2 that many people were expecting and looking forward to.
The problem with this argument is that it disguises the real issue with the design. Sure everybody pretty much used the same rule when picking stats, but that doesn't mean everybody picked the same actual values for each stat. There were actual interesting decisions that effected stat allocation in Diablo 2. Mainly, how heavy an armor did you want to be able to wear and, did you want to use a weapon with a Dexterity requirement, and did you want to max your block rate (and if so, with which shield).
Once you had made those decisions, then allocating your stat points was mostly a mechanical process following the above rule, but that doesn't mean the decisions that went into "how much STR and DEX do I need" were pointless. In Diablo 3 those decisions have been completely removed. Everyone will just use the heaviest armor, weapon types will be almost completely interchangeable, the block mechanic is almost an afterthought, and things like armor weight (light/medium/heavy) have been completely removed from the game.
I don't think anybody is really advocating for set-in-stone choices that you can never change. Being able to say "oops, I made a mistake and need to fix it" should certainly be allowed. Experimentation is also a great thing. Diablo 2 solved these problems eventually by allowing people to respec their stats and skills. Instead of doing something similar in Diablo 3 they decided to use a system that basically gives you 20 points in every skill at the same time and increases the number of hotkeys from 2 to 6, but puts a short cooldown on how often you can swap which skill in bound to which key.
One of the core aspects when deciding which "build" to use for a character in Diablo 2 was the trade-offs that different skill combos included. A single-element sorceress would have more powerful spells than a tri-elementalist, but had serious problems when dealing with certain immunes. Because switching skills in Diablo 3 is so easy, these sorts of trade-offs are essentially gone. You can pick whichever skills make you generally feel the most powerful without worrying about the potential downsides to those skills. If you hit a situation that's a little harder, you can just swap to a different skill. You have all the power of every class skills and none of their weaknesses at your disposal.
Like I said, this doesn't mean the game will be bad, it just won't be the heir to Diablo 2 that many people were expecting.
I would rather see all companies taking their time and doing good games like blizzard do instead of asking us to wait for one for half of this time and then releasing something with balance bugs which I stops playing after 2 weeks as I'm overpowered (look Skyrim for example).
Why not, it's part of personal skill to do such changes fast and on the fly. If you have two players playing wizard you want them to be able to win by fast thinking and not just by fast clicking.
From this I can see that you probably don't care about how gutting many of the mechanics that allow strategic thinking about a game can negatively effect how people who enjoy those aspects of the game feel about the game. However, just in case you do care but are unaware, I'm telling you that some people like to play their video games like they would play a game of chess--the thinking and planning and strategizing is as important, if not more so, than the actual clicking hack-and-slash part.
This person could have made the point much more tactfully, but what he said definitely captures the frustration that people like me feel each time we find out that another theory-crafting aspect of the game has been cut to make the game "easier for beginners to pickup". I can't really fault Blizzard for moving in this direction with their games. There are a lot more people out there who only really care about the hack-and-slash aspects compared to those that care deeply about the strategy side of things, so its a good business decision on their part (and it clearly works to get people like your girlfriend to play the game who might not have otherwise). Knowing this, though, doesn't make it any less frustrating that the game isn't everything I wish it was (especially when Diablo 2 was a better "thinking man's game" than Diablo 3 seems likely to be).
Fundamentally the game is still the exact same. (ARPG where you massacre thousands of demons with spells.) You're giving to much value to the concept of putting points/skills into a character. That's just a small part of the overall experience.
Diablo 2 was very much white-knuckle action with emphasis on twitch reflexes. If anything Diablo 2 made it even more twitchy than Diablo 1, adding a run button and several other modifications to how combat flowed. You're also talking extremes here, sure most players who wanted to farm Hell needed some sort of "super smart" calculated build, but for the most part, in Diablo 2 you could throw just about anything together and click your way through Normal and Nightmare. I know I did when I first started playing. Even saying that, figuring out to put 20 points into Cold Mastery and Frozen Orb isn't exactly rocket science.
So the argument that people suddenly want instant-gratification and can't pay attention anymore and that Diablo 3 is responding to that isn't a fair one, because the game play changes aren't all that drastic, and Diablo 3 really isn't the huge departure from series norms that people seem to believe.
I think the notion that Diablo 2 was a thinking man's game isn't accurate at all.
Here's the difficult thinking that went into Diablo 2.
Then go out and hack n slash to your hearts content.
I say they do their best to be a role model for feature ARPGs (not RPGs but who knows). I like these flexibility more than not. I think others will come to think the same way, they just don't know it yet
Please, not TL2 disscusion. If anybody here was really considering that game they would move to TL forums already and be exited about that game.
IMO, TL2 is to slow to be ARPG and if it's not ARPG then it's comparing apples and bananas which we should not do here.
I believe that most of those people who wants to be locked to skills did not paly that much of D2 as they would know how big of a whore it was not to be able to respec after 50 lvls when you relaized you don't like your build for any reason.
Diablo 2 definitely had the "action" part of "action-RPG", but it also had the "RPG" part in terms of having to make meaningful decisions that determined how you would play your character. Even in your example, there was the decision to be a cold sorceress and the additional decision to specialize into Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery. There were probably additional decisions about what types of weapons and armor you wanted to use as you leveled up and, thus, how many points you would put into which stats.
Diablo 3, on the other hand, doesn't have these "RPG" type decisions. You don't make an Arcane Wizard or a Fire Wizard, you just make a Wizard. You may have chosen a different set of skills to put on your hotkeys than some other Wizard, but this isn't really a decision that defines who you are as a character when you can swap them around so easily. Mastering the skill system in Diablo 3 isn't going to be about coming up with a "build" of 6 skills to pick and stick with, its going to be about learning when to pull out each individual skill for a given situation. All Wizards have the same set of tools at all times, so there's no difference between the strengths and weaknesses that any two Wizards have.
People are saying 6 skills not enough.....boo hoo, what did you have in D2? 2 skills on your bar and hot keys on the others but how many did you need to use in given moment....3 or 4 most times ended a fight. You had no choice in D2 with the skills, you either took this tree or that tree and if you mixed it up you ended being too weak. D3 lets you become anything you like with out being penalized, one post I saw was someone wanted the skills be locked and if you made a bad choice then be penalized.....what the hell for!!! I want to enjoy the game not be told off for playing it wrong.
All those cry babies about no trading because of the auction house WTF!!! read more you can trade in the game window and if I am correct I remember seeing a trade chat window on the new chat. I could say more but people need to realize what they are getting and remember the way it was, D3 is much better then D2, I try going back to D2 to play but it so frustrating wishing it had a lot of stuff that D3 has.
This game is going to rock and will be playing it a long time to come.
There is still the possibility that items can fill this role of decision making and focusing on a certain aspect of your character. If you like Arcane skills, you can focus on Arcane-enhancing gear for a while on your Wizard. Bashiok even said that people are dismissing the importance of itemization too quickly in these discussions.
Sure you remember the story, but there weren't decisions that you made to level up Cain's gear/skills/etc like you would in Mass Effect or those other RPG games. I think that's where he's trying to make the difference. There is definitely the story/plot that is there but it isn't as engaging as most classic RPG styles - hence the ARPG.
I agree with the OP and Baretta. The rest of you Nancies just need to take a chill pill.
Well, they could add special mode (like hardcore) but for those people who want to be restircted by more rpg like mechanics. But I think they want all to try this way of playing Diablo and to see if they will change their mind about it. If they don't I believe blizzard will add a new mode later on (maybe with an expansion).
Regarding 1. There is only so much Blizzard can do in a "reasonable" time. I think next step would be to choose any body and have access to all 600 abilities (runes included) but it would require to much balancing. I bet blizzard would like to have it otherwise. Oh, you can name it God even now if you want (probably ;))