The idea is to taunt enemies and take the hits like a champ, but letting enemies pay for it in return. I love the synergy between taunting and Revenge. Plus, skills like Cleave, Rend and Earthquake will really cause some pain to groups of enemies hoarding around me.
I'm curious if the two different types of APS bonuses will stay in the game for release or if it's just an artifact in the beta. I was a little surprised to see they had two different methods which perform in such different ways. Then again, maybe it's an intentional difference. Now that I've seen your video I don't really care either way.
Even from levels 1-30 you have a bunch of skills and runes to choose from. Starting at level 3 you will already need to start excluding skills from your action bar, and it gets larger and larger each time you level. You'll have to make choices, period.
If you have a planned build that uses a rune unlocked at level 60, so what! Replace that skill with something else in the mean time and have something to look forward to! I see no sense of accomplishment (or fun, for that matter) if I get all skills in my build by level 30 and the only improvement I see from 30-60 is a slight boost in power whenever I can pop a new rune into the skill.
In the old runestone system, what happens when the market becomes flooded with runes? Low level ones are "candy" so you can experiment with those all you want. But if you can buy a stronger version on the AH as soon as you reach its required level, you will. So now the runestone system is all about having the money to buy the highest runes for your level, not about rewarding the choices you make.
There's been a lot of topics on the forums lately regarding a lack of character customization possibilities and decision making points due to the way the current skill and rune system works. It got me wondering what the actual progression of skill unlocks looked like as you level up to 60, so I made a spreadsheet with the totals. It's on Google Docs because I couldn't think of a better way to share it.
Basically what I did is totalled up skill slots, skills, and skill runes for each level, and then took the corresponding ratios of skills to slots. Here's a summary of the results for every 10 levels:
(Note: I used the Barbarian skill page to obtain this information)
So there's a whole bunch of mostly useless numbers, but the point of this is to show that there are plenty of combinations to choose from throughout the entire leveling process because the number of skills outweighs your skill slots by at least a factor of two from levels 11 to 60. When you include the number of rune combinations you essentially see a linear increase all the way to max level (there's a plot on the sheet labeled "Plot").
Now I'm no statistician, so I'm not going to calculate the total number of active/rune/passive skill combinations, but it's obviously very high (which we already knew).
I think this provides plenty of potential decision making for those who want to make it. Of course, a lot of that decision making is made experimentally (i.e. "Hmm... which skill do I like more?"), but there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't feel that Blizzard is locking us in to any particular build as we level because there are so many skills to choose from. What do you all think?
Anyway, just some food for thought. Perhaps some members that are smarter than me can make more of this.
P.S. If there's a better way to share an excel sheet on here, let me know and I might do it. Thanks!
Diablo 2 definitely had the "action" part of "action-RPG", but it also had the "RPG" part in terms of having to make meaningful decisions that determined how you would play your character. Even in your example, there was the decision to be a cold sorceress and the additional decision to specialize into Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery. There were probably additional decisions about what types of weapons and armor you wanted to use as you leveled up and, thus, how many points you would put into which stats.
There is still the possibility that items can fill this role of decision making and focusing on a certain aspect of your character. If you like Arcane skills, you can focus on Arcane-enhancing gear for a while on your Wizard. Bashiok even said that people are dismissing the importance of itemization too quickly in these discussions.
I think it's sad that I probably only ever used about half (or less) of the skills in Diablo 2 because I knew that the rest of them were no good. I can't wait to do something fun and interesting with my characters in this game.
Saying that there's no character planning involved seems like an ignorant statement to me... Sure, you don't need to write down a recipe that someone else determined for you on how to build the perfect character. But you can still theory-craft in your spare time about awesome skill combinations. What more do you need? Skills are what make your characters awesome, not 15 extra points into vitality than the average Joe.
This is an interesting idea, but I feel like it doesn't mesh with the Diablo 3 philosophy behind skills and experimentation. It basically just introduces some punishment for deciding to try out a skill variation.
I don't think that the freedom to change out your skills forces people to do it any more than they would if they were "locked in" to a certain build. All that "locked in" really means is that you have to pay a fee or create a new character, which people would do anyway. Why not cut out the extra step?
So... I'm just curious, if Blizzard leaves in +skill affixes on items and then allows the player to choose the specific rune that unlocks on a skill, would that "fix" the current system?
Besides, you'll be happy to know that skill boosting affixes are back, so there's your build commitment, except on gear. Provided they don't suddenly take them out before release.
Wait, I missed it. They are putting skill affixes on items?
1. Easiest idea to make current rune system better, without delaying the game:
System works as it is, but Blizz introduces rare upgrade Tome drops in Inferno, i.e. Crimson Tome Rank 6/7 (adds Crimson effect to any skill), etc. or if Blizz wants more variety - Magic Missile Rank 6/7, etc.
Benefits - no release delay, high-end part is saved, more item hunting for hardcore players, more items for AH, etc.
2. The best rune system:
7 ranks and 5 colors (works for any skill), thats 35 runes total. Low ranks drops like candies, last ranks very rare.
Blizz returns removed stash space, or at least 40 slots for runes, or Runes bag in UI, its fine either way. Runes stack.
Done. This system makes happy everyone from ultra casual to super hardcore.
I think that the issues voiced by Blizzard regarding the runestone system are very real. If make the runes specific so you know exactly what they do, you end up with a huge amount of items. If you make them generic to limit the runes to 35 total, you have to read a novel of tooltips to figure out which skill you want to put it in.
Skill runes are a great idea, but a lot of people just aren't happy that the order is defined for them. Letting the player choose a rune seems like a viable solution, but I think it has its drawbacks too. Wouldn't picking everything you want first just make future upgrades (level 30+) fairly pointless.? I don't know, maybe it's just me.
I personaly think that they should have kept runewords in. IF anything this was the best part about diablo 2. There wasnt a problem with that system until people started duping them, cause they were currency for the in game market. No one likes this new idea, i for one dont know yet.
Here is my idea, if the system now has you unlock runes at certain lvls, you should have 1 of a kind specific class hidden skill that unlocks with a specific crafted legendary gear comboed with a 1 time only rune option in that legendary item, only obtainable by breaking down certain rare gear attributes. If you guess wrong on the rune combo with the legendary item and class, then you loose 1 attribute on that armor of your choosing. That way you have to risk alot to gain everything, and it will keep rare junk from staying on the market as well, and will set you apart from others.
Runewords weren't in the original Diablo 2 either, so I wouldn't rule out some kind of addition like that in the future. A lot of people loved them, a lot of people hated them, but they did add something interesting. But that is more of an item modification so it's completely different from the skill runes.
I wouldn't be surprised by minor changes to the rune system we see now, but I highly doubt they revert to runestones. Fixing the interface is a no-brainer, however...
Most of the time I spent playing D2 went towards getting the best gear to support my build and to be among the "best". I loved playing the barb and tried just about every viable build there was, including a few that just weren't very good. I'd also remake a character if I thought I put one point too few into vitality, but that took just a few hours. So really, the skills and builds had nothing to do with why I played for so long -- I did it because I loved the game and because there was always some item I wanted to get.
The skill customization available to us in D3 is going to be a blast. You could create another character of the same class just to intentionally play it different from the last time. Just because the freedom to do something exists doesn't mean you have to; try playing without skill swapping, or without using runes, or whatever you want. There's plenty of fun to be had without the restrictions enforced upon us in D2.
I plan on using the skills that I have the most fun with and that work together in awesome ways, thus forming my preferred builds. It seems that skills are remarkably more balanced in D3, so there are TONS of skill combinations that you can leave on all the time and you will probably fare just fine.
Perhaps the effects of skill swapping are more noticeable at lower levels when skill slots are limited and passives aren't unlocked yet? I can imagine that if you really wanted to make a major change to your skill setup (bigger than say, swapping bash for cleave), you will need to change several (or all) of your skills because of the way they can all feed off of one another. If you're talking about a quick swap in the field, I don't think it will change your style of play too much.
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http://us.battle.net...YSRg!Vcd!aZYbcb
The idea is to taunt enemies and take the hits like a champ, but letting enemies pay for it in return. I love the synergy between taunting and Revenge. Plus, skills like Cleave, Rend and Earthquake will really cause some pain to groups of enemies hoarding around me.
0
I'm curious if the two different types of APS bonuses will stay in the game for release or if it's just an artifact in the beta. I was a little surprised to see they had two different methods which perform in such different ways. Then again, maybe it's an intentional difference. Now that I've seen your video I don't really care either way.
0
If you have a planned build that uses a rune unlocked at level 60, so what! Replace that skill with something else in the mean time and have something to look forward to! I see no sense of accomplishment (or fun, for that matter) if I get all skills in my build by level 30 and the only improvement I see from 30-60 is a slight boost in power whenever I can pop a new rune into the skill.
In the old runestone system, what happens when the market becomes flooded with runes? Low level ones are "candy" so you can experiment with those all you want. But if you can buy a stronger version on the AH as soon as you reach its required level, you will. So now the runestone system is all about having the money to buy the highest runes for your level, not about rewarding the choices you make.
My vote goes to skill runes.
0
There's been a lot of topics on the forums lately regarding a lack of character customization possibilities and decision making points due to the way the current skill and rune system works. It got me wondering what the actual progression of skill unlocks looked like as you level up to 60, so I made a spreadsheet with the totals. It's on Google Docs because I couldn't think of a better way to share it.
https://docs.google....VDBQcFI2aDhNSFE
Basically what I did is totalled up skill slots, skills, and skill runes for each level, and then took the corresponding ratios of skills to slots. Here's a summary of the results for every 10 levels:
(Note: I used the Barbarian skill page to obtain this information)
Level: 10 > 20 > 30 > 40 > 50 > 60
Skill slots (active/passive): 4/1 > 6/2 > 6/3 > 6/3 > 6/3 > 6/3
Total skills: 9 > 23 > 38 > 38 > 38 > 38
Total runes: 3 > 12 > 30 > 61 > 86 > 110
(Active Skill + Rune)/Slots: 2.5 > 4.3 > 8.7 > 13.8 > 18 > 22
So there's a whole bunch of mostly useless numbers, but the point of this is to show that there are plenty of combinations to choose from throughout the entire leveling process because the number of skills outweighs your skill slots by at least a factor of two from levels 11 to 60. When you include the number of rune combinations you essentially see a linear increase all the way to max level (there's a plot on the sheet labeled "Plot").
Now I'm no statistician, so I'm not going to calculate the total number of active/rune/passive skill combinations, but it's obviously very high (which we already knew).
I think this provides plenty of potential decision making for those who want to make it. Of course, a lot of that decision making is made experimentally (i.e. "Hmm... which skill do I like more?"), but there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't feel that Blizzard is locking us in to any particular build as we level because there are so many skills to choose from. What do you all think?
Anyway, just some food for thought. Perhaps some members that are smarter than me can make more of this.
P.S. If there's a better way to share an excel sheet on here, let me know and I might do it. Thanks!
0
There is still the possibility that items can fill this role of decision making and focusing on a certain aspect of your character. If you like Arcane skills, you can focus on Arcane-enhancing gear for a while on your Wizard. Bashiok even said that people are dismissing the importance of itemization too quickly in these discussions.
0
I think it's sad that I probably only ever used about half (or less) of the skills in Diablo 2 because I knew that the rest of them were no good. I can't wait to do something fun and interesting with my characters in this game.
Saying that there's no character planning involved seems like an ignorant statement to me... Sure, you don't need to write down a recipe that someone else determined for you on how to build the perfect character. But you can still theory-craft in your spare time about awesome skill combinations. What more do you need? Skills are what make your characters awesome, not 15 extra points into vitality than the average Joe.
0
I don't think that the freedom to change out your skills forces people to do it any more than they would if they were "locked in" to a certain build. All that "locked in" really means is that you have to pay a fee or create a new character, which people would do anyway. Why not cut out the extra step?
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Cool. I like!
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Wait, I missed it. They are putting skill affixes on items?
0
I think that the issues voiced by Blizzard regarding the runestone system are very real. If make the runes specific so you know exactly what they do, you end up with a huge amount of items. If you make them generic to limit the runes to 35 total, you have to read a novel of tooltips to figure out which skill you want to put it in.
Skill runes are a great idea, but a lot of people just aren't happy that the order is defined for them. Letting the player choose a rune seems like a viable solution, but I think it has its drawbacks too. Wouldn't picking everything you want first just make future upgrades (level 30+) fairly pointless.? I don't know, maybe it's just me.
0
Runewords weren't in the original Diablo 2 either, so I wouldn't rule out some kind of addition like that in the future. A lot of people loved them, a lot of people hated them, but they did add something interesting. But that is more of an item modification so it's completely different from the skill runes.
I wouldn't be surprised by minor changes to the rune system we see now, but I highly doubt they revert to runestones. Fixing the interface is a no-brainer, however...
0
The skill customization available to us in D3 is going to be a blast. You could create another character of the same class just to intentionally play it different from the last time. Just because the freedom to do something exists doesn't mean you have to; try playing without skill swapping, or without using runes, or whatever you want. There's plenty of fun to be had without the restrictions enforced upon us in D2.
0
Perhaps the effects of skill swapping are more noticeable at lower levels when skill slots are limited and passives aren't unlocked yet? I can imagine that if you really wanted to make a major change to your skill setup (bigger than say, swapping bash for cleave), you will need to change several (or all) of your skills because of the way they can all feed off of one another. If you're talking about a quick swap in the field, I don't think it will change your style of play too much.