umm i just read a quote from Jay wilson that
that there will be no xp loss on death but will " Waste players time "
im guessing this means no porting back to where I died, and having to run there............. this sounds very lame, give me the xp penalty VS watching my character run for 5 minutes through an area I just cleared any day. nothing should be in a game to simply ""waste players time""
even though thats kind of what a game is any way, but you get my point, nothing should be in the game to simply force me to wait as a penalty,
if my character dies, give HIM the penalty, not me.
This is the reason I despise most MMORPGS is most things in the game simply waste your time, ie watching your character run for 10 minutes to simply get to where you are going.
well, the problem with draining your xp, is that it was honestly too depressing lol. That wastes a lot of your time.
When I say this, i'm not saying when you reach hell difficulty at level 20, when you can level 4 times in 1 baal runs game. I mean at higher levels, this is taking the hard hours of reaching level 90 all away. This is not only something that makes you feel like you're making no progress, but it makes you feel like you should stop playing the character because you get no where.
I haven't kept up with the changes lately, but if I remember, they won't drain your xp, but they might make you drop some gold. BUT, gold in this game is nothing like it is in D2. Gold is something that will supposedly be harder to get, and get you much more...
Not only that, nothing is set in stone, and I trust blizzard to make the changes necessary
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"Not Even Death Can Save You From Me" ~ Diablo (II)
In a multiplayer sense, if your whole team dies.. i think its necessary to walk back.. Maybe not all the way, but waypoints. However, if one or more of ur team survives.. maybe theres a way to port ur team back when out of combat.
You know the difference between backtrack to a certain place and loose XP/Gold ?
In both cases you loose time. But in the first case you loose time by running in a empty field full of dead bodys and bad loot. In the other case you have to kill stuff to recover the gold/xp. Now I ask you whats more fun, run around in a empty dungeon or kill and loot ?
Loose XP and Gold + backtrack to the check point is the perfect death penalty. Actually perma loss of your character is but not everyone play hc.
^ this. Any other penalty is bound to just waste your time, no matter what form it comes in.
I do like hardcore but what wastes your time more then being lvl 90 and something freakish happenes or someone 1 hit kos you or just something goes wrong and you die and cant play that char anymore ever and you put 40+ hours in this guy(or more) and you cant play him anymore? that to me fellas is a BIG WASTE OF TIME.
~Mike~
ps can i get a link this must be new news because thats pretty much the opp of what jay said and there way of making diablo 3 (they dont want to waste your time and be in the action as much as possible)
So wasting peoples time is not a "real" penalty? Is the only real penalty the ultimate penalty? ^^
It is a real penalty but not the perfect one.
I don't see loosing a character as a waste of time. Imo HC means one thing: finish the game w/o a single death. If die you, you failed. It doesn't matter if you have to take another 40 hours to finish the game.
Let's not ruin the thread with this boring discussion of why harcore sucks or pwns.
when it clearly pwns....
Ok if the running time from the check point isnt much, then its a pointless penalty,
if its too long, its a lame penalty, thats right, i just gave lose lose situation to the argument...
but if gold is as important, and hard to get as you say, then thats a definate penalty, but what if you dont have any more gold left anyway? then your back to a pointless penalty.
so whats the other option? maybe temporary nerf your characters stats? you are weakened, mentally, physically etc, because you have just been killed, plus this makes for a good penalty, you will suck in battle for the next.... 3 minutes or so?
im not necessarily saying they do this, we are just brainstorming what a good outcome would be.
Jay said he doesnt want people to simply "fling their corps" back into battle continuously until they defeat their enemies.
also consider PVP, I dont want PVP to simply be for fun, I weant their to be rewards, xp, or something, but you cant have rewards without penalty, so what do you suppose needs to be done about that? ( of course there will be the ultimate penalty in hardcore, which is why they need rewards for PVP)
sorry I kind of made a multi discussion here... but they both fall under death mechanics.
P.S. OFF TOPIC( why does it underline the word "definate" in red, when it is spelled correctly?)
I do not think that there is going to be a debuff or any lower stats for a time since many players will just safe and exit.
I have a feeling that the character is going to spawn about a screen or two from the scene of death if in a party. Party members do not want to wait for fallen comrades and the party members would like the fallen comrade to rejoin the battle asap.
I think the best way for a penalty is for gold and xp loss at death.
None of this is likely going to impact me since I am going to be playing HC unless some tournaments I play require it to be in SC.
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On Strike and supporting Fallout 4 Mod Makers
Some fallout 4 mod makers have had their mods stolen and uploaded and downloaded on Bethesda's site for the Xbox One.
I'm going to make a wall of text to try my best to put an end to all the argument over something so simple
first: Hardcore isn't part of this discussion
a) The point of hardcore is to become as powerful as possible and beat the game without a single death.
- This means you can't be reckless
- This is fun for the reason that it'll be harder, you can't have ONE screw up
- Its for people that like a challenge
- and because if you reach level 50++, that is some form of an accomplishment while in softcore, 70++ is common
+ in softcore, we know there isn't a DIRE consequence, so we feel no shame jumping in a group of enemies.
If you play call of duty, there is Search and Destroy, and team death match. In T.D.M. everyone runs around carefree because death causes you to wait for 10 seconds. period. IN search and destroy, if you die, you wait till the end of the round, which caused this to be a slower, strategic game mode. (don't mention COD again, i just brought it up as an example)...
ON THE OTHER HAND:
the point of softcore is to beat the game, become as powerful as possible, and just make it...IN THE END.
- This is a game mode for less "hard core" players (hence the name).
- This is for people that don't constitute playing the game in HC, investing time, and losing it as fun.
+ to many, they just want to play the game without such harsh consequences.
- Now, the REAL question is:
"How do you punish someone for dying, without making the game LESS fun, boring and repetitive for the player."
- XP, in my opinion, is something you EARNED, and taking it away, makes the player feel like his time is wasted, and he is back at step 1.
every time I died in hell difficulty, and I visibly see a piece of xp missing, I just thought to myself ... WOW, THAT WAS ALL...FOR...NOTHING.. and its true! (at some point, i got pissed at leveling, at around 90, and i died a lot, I thought to myself...if i die at 0 xp, would i go back to level 89??) which at least that didn't happen.
Blizzard wants to make the game a challenge, without taking away the fun. Touching the XP, in my opinion, is OUT of the question!
- GOLD: gold should be valuable (or at least more valuable and useful in D3), unlike D2. Theres an infinite number of gold, and you can get a lot of it by killing any monsters, selling valuables etc.. (this is just like XP, but a loss of gold is depressing, but it doesn't break your spirit to keep killing monsters.
XP is a progress bar, taking XP away, makes you feel like you are at 50%...55%...then going back to 40%
Gold is just a tool you use to get better equipment, potions, scrolls...etc. Its useful, but not NECESSARY, or an indicator of progress.
Gold should be one of the death penalties.
someone mentioned: what if you have no gold? well, first of all, if there is gold in your stash, that should count as a loss. If your total gold supply is at absolute zero, then you already have a problem. Thats like saying: "i'm worried about breaking my phone...wait, its already broken, who cares."
If you have no gold, then you basically have no physical things to lose. If your phone is broken, who gives a shit if you throw it on the floor. Same thing with dying. You want a punishment, not something to attack your assets. If you have no gold, then theres enough of a problem there....
Now the matter of checkpoints:
c) As you travel in a level, varying in distance, when you die, your reappear at a checkpoint. As of how it works, i'm not sure.
Theres 2 ways this works: 1) everything goes back in time as to when the checkpoint was marked, or 2) the checkpoint only marks your location.
the first one makes no sense considering theres a team of 4 people and 1 dies. This means the guy who died will recover at the checkpoint and run back to the group. This means the second one is the option.
When you die, 2 things will happen: You lose gold, and you return at the checkpoint with i'm guessing your armor on the floor (that is my suggestion).
MAYBE, just maybe...and I, and none of you can decide this, is tiny things that will be added to the death mechanic. I say we can't decide it, because we don't know the specifics of the game. The small things that could be added might be dropping a potion bag on the floor and someone else can pick it up. maybe losing durability in your armor.
sorry for the long post, but all these comments just bother me because some sound completely unreasonable, and if the game was made with those things, then it'd hurt the game. D2 was a great game, but we want the game improved...
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"Not Even Death Can Save You From Me" ~ Diablo (II)
Well, the problem is that they removed town portals because they didn't want people constantly going to town. This mechanic would cause that problem over again only it would take much longer. If the penalty stacked too much, people would just walk back to the last town to "cure" them removing them from the action which is something Blizzard does not want. If the penalty lasted until the next checkpoint, that might work but the stacking option becomes impossible.
I really think Blizzard is trying to avoid harsh/drastic penalties from dying. According to my post, the only penalty they were using currently was a drop in health that slowly regens. You even get your gear back when you die. While some may complain that this is too easy, one cannot deny that it will allow you to be in the action of the game as much as possible.
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So, all the monsters respawn when you go back to town?
My other question is that if you couldn't beat it with full stats, how do you plan on beating it with dimensioned stats? Of course there is the "take it easy" approach but what about truly hard parts like bosses. If you can't beat the boss the first time, it is unlikely you will be able to beat them if you keep dying and loosing stats.
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Pff, reduce durability on both items you wear (-33%) and items you carry (-10%).
Put you back at the last checkpoint with monsters re-spawned and those that re-spawn will have extremely reduced money, gear and xp drops (perhaps 5% of the total) excluding health orbs ofc. So normally they would drop 200 gold, now they drop 10 gold because you already got the 200 drop. Bosses should not re-spawn.
That should be enough. You have to redo most of it but you don't lose much and the loss in durability can be fixed with some gold which can be regained by killing those few monsters.
Now if gold is really valuable the game can drop a certain amount on the location where you died. You die, you lose 50% and you can get it back (maybe 40%). So you carry 1500, you drop 750. You can get 600 back for a total of 1350.
I covered the first part already..
the monsters can't and won't respawn for one reason. If you're in a group of 4 people and one person dies, then (using your example), all the monsters would reset as if you just hit that checkpoint. meaning the other 3 people that are in the current location will be surrounded by monsters, and the 4th guy will have to fight his way back..
even if the monsters are 10% of their original strength, its just idiotic to do it that way...
the monsters shouldn't and won't respawn when you die, it makes no sense...
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"Not Even Death Can Save You From Me" ~ Diablo (II)
let me tell you this, Ophion, we don't want to keep throwing the players back into the dungeon..
BUT, if after 2 tries, you can't beat something, you either need to re-think what you're doing, stop going head on, or get out of there. A level 2, does no damage in the chaos sanctuary...
Some of you mention de-buffs, that is also a bad idea. We don't want to de-buff the character! thats very bad. you'd just wait the minute until it wears off, then rush back into battle. Mind you, this is a FUN game, not one that they try to make boring. They want the game to be a challenge, not to tax you with so many penalties that its hard.
in D2, in hell difficulty, they didn't make the game harder, they just tacked on a last minute easy way to make the game longer by adding immunities. This made hell difficulty very difficult, if not impossible without an amazing build/armor... You guys are SEARCHING for a way that you will be punished when you die...thats bad..and not fun...
-NO debuffing character
-NO respawning monsters
-NO 33%++ durability loss (somewhere around 17%, you lose durability during the fight as well)
-NO making the character immune for 10 seconds after respawn (if anything, only 1.5 seconds)
Someone asked if the monsters respawn when you go back to town. (i'm answering this logically, no fact or knowledge about what they're doing)...
Each diablo game you create is a single world. if you kill diablo in 1 game, he is dead. period.
a shaman might be able to revive a fallen, but once you kill all the monsters in a single diablo world, then they are gone to oblivion. that is why in d2, you can only do a quest once in a game...
when you remake a game, a new diablo world appears from scratch, and everything re-appears. You don't get a second credit for completing a mission a 2nd++ time, but everything is back...
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"Not Even Death Can Save You From Me" ~ Diablo (II)
that there will be no xp loss on death but will " Waste players time "
im guessing this means no porting back to where I died, and having to run there............. this sounds very lame, give me the xp penalty VS watching my character run for 5 minutes through an area I just cleared any day. nothing should be in a game to simply ""waste players time""
even though thats kind of what a game is any way, but you get my point, nothing should be in the game to simply force me to wait as a penalty,
if my character dies, give HIM the penalty, not me.
This is the reason I despise most MMORPGS is most things in the game simply waste your time, ie watching your character run for 10 minutes to simply get to where you are going.
When I say this, i'm not saying when you reach hell difficulty at level 20, when you can level 4 times in 1 baal runs game. I mean at higher levels, this is taking the hard hours of reaching level 90 all away. This is not only something that makes you feel like you're making no progress, but it makes you feel like you should stop playing the character because you get no where.
I haven't kept up with the changes lately, but if I remember, they won't drain your xp, but they might make you drop some gold. BUT, gold in this game is nothing like it is in D2. Gold is something that will supposedly be harder to get, and get you much more...
Not only that, nothing is set in stone, and I trust blizzard to make the changes necessary
Kefka, Final Fantasy VI
In a multiplayer sense, if your whole team dies.. i think its necessary to walk back.. Maybe not all the way, but waypoints. However, if one or more of ur team survives.. maybe theres a way to port ur team back when out of combat.
2. They have said their will be no corpse running, meaning you don't have to go pick up your body.
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In both cases you loose time. But in the first case you loose time by running in a empty field full of dead bodys and bad loot. In the other case you have to kill stuff to recover the gold/xp. Now I ask you whats more fun, run around in a empty dungeon or kill and loot ?
Loose XP and Gold + backtrack to the check point is the perfect death penalty. Actually perma loss of your character is but not everyone play hc.
~Mike~
ps can i get a link this must be new news because thats pretty much the opp of what jay said and there way of making diablo 3 (they dont want to waste your time and be in the action as much as possible)
It is a real penalty but not the perfect one.
I don't see loosing a character as a waste of time. Imo HC means one thing: finish the game w/o a single death. If die you, you failed. It doesn't matter if you have to take another 40 hours to finish the game.
when it clearly pwns....
Ok if the running time from the check point isnt much, then its a pointless penalty,
if its too long, its a lame penalty, thats right, i just gave lose lose situation to the argument...
but if gold is as important, and hard to get as you say, then thats a definate penalty, but what if you dont have any more gold left anyway? then your back to a pointless penalty.
so whats the other option? maybe temporary nerf your characters stats? you are weakened, mentally, physically etc, because you have just been killed, plus this makes for a good penalty, you will suck in battle for the next.... 3 minutes or so?
im not necessarily saying they do this, we are just brainstorming what a good outcome would be.
Jay said he doesnt want people to simply "fling their corps" back into battle continuously until they defeat their enemies.
also consider PVP, I dont want PVP to simply be for fun, I weant their to be rewards, xp, or something, but you cant have rewards without penalty, so what do you suppose needs to be done about that? ( of course there will be the ultimate penalty in hardcore, which is why they need rewards for PVP)
sorry I kind of made a multi discussion here... but they both fall under death mechanics.
P.S. OFF TOPIC( why does it underline the word "definate" in red, when it is spelled correctly?)
comon people,
we at least need different mechanics for pvp, rewards / penalties.
I have a feeling that the character is going to spawn about a screen or two from the scene of death if in a party. Party members do not want to wait for fallen comrades and the party members would like the fallen comrade to rejoin the battle asap.
I think the best way for a penalty is for gold and xp loss at death.
None of this is likely going to impact me since I am going to be playing HC unless some tournaments I play require it to be in SC.
poof, no gold penalty, too easy.
first: Hardcore isn't part of this discussion
a) The point of hardcore is to become as powerful as possible and beat the game without a single death.
- This means you can't be reckless
- This is fun for the reason that it'll be harder, you can't have ONE screw up
- Its for people that like a challenge
- and because if you reach level 50++, that is some form of an accomplishment while in softcore, 70++ is common
+ in softcore, we know there isn't a DIRE consequence, so we feel no shame jumping in a group of enemies.
If you play call of duty, there is Search and Destroy, and team death match. In T.D.M. everyone runs around carefree because death causes you to wait for 10 seconds. period. IN search and destroy, if you die, you wait till the end of the round, which caused this to be a slower, strategic game mode. (don't mention COD again, i just brought it up as an example)...
ON THE OTHER HAND:
the point of softcore is to beat the game, become as powerful as possible, and just make it...IN THE END.
- This is a game mode for less "hard core" players (hence the name).
- This is for people that don't constitute playing the game in HC, investing time, and losing it as fun.
+ to many, they just want to play the game without such harsh consequences.
- Now, the REAL question is:
"How do you punish someone for dying, without making the game LESS fun, boring and repetitive for the player."
- XP, in my opinion, is something you EARNED, and taking it away, makes the player feel like his time is wasted, and he is back at step 1.
every time I died in hell difficulty, and I visibly see a piece of xp missing, I just thought to myself ... WOW, THAT WAS ALL...FOR...NOTHING.. and its true! (at some point, i got pissed at leveling, at around 90, and i died a lot, I thought to myself...if i die at 0 xp, would i go back to level 89??) which at least that didn't happen.
Blizzard wants to make the game a challenge, without taking away the fun. Touching the XP, in my opinion, is OUT of the question!
- GOLD: gold should be valuable (or at least more valuable and useful in D3), unlike D2. Theres an infinite number of gold, and you can get a lot of it by killing any monsters, selling valuables etc.. (this is just like XP, but a loss of gold is depressing, but it doesn't break your spirit to keep killing monsters.
XP is a progress bar, taking XP away, makes you feel like you are at 50%...55%...then going back to 40%
Gold is just a tool you use to get better equipment, potions, scrolls...etc. Its useful, but not NECESSARY, or an indicator of progress.
Gold should be one of the death penalties.
someone mentioned: what if you have no gold? well, first of all, if there is gold in your stash, that should count as a loss. If your total gold supply is at absolute zero, then you already have a problem. Thats like saying: "i'm worried about breaking my phone...wait, its already broken, who cares."
If you have no gold, then you basically have no physical things to lose. If your phone is broken, who gives a shit if you throw it on the floor. Same thing with dying. You want a punishment, not something to attack your assets. If you have no gold, then theres enough of a problem there....
Now the matter of checkpoints:
c) As you travel in a level, varying in distance, when you die, your reappear at a checkpoint. As of how it works, i'm not sure.
Theres 2 ways this works: 1) everything goes back in time as to when the checkpoint was marked, or 2) the checkpoint only marks your location.
the first one makes no sense considering theres a team of 4 people and 1 dies. This means the guy who died will recover at the checkpoint and run back to the group. This means the second one is the option.
When you die, 2 things will happen: You lose gold, and you return at the checkpoint with i'm guessing your armor on the floor (that is my suggestion).
MAYBE, just maybe...and I, and none of you can decide this, is tiny things that will be added to the death mechanic. I say we can't decide it, because we don't know the specifics of the game. The small things that could be added might be dropping a potion bag on the floor and someone else can pick it up. maybe losing durability in your armor.
sorry for the long post, but all these comments just bother me because some sound completely unreasonable, and if the game was made with those things, then it'd hurt the game. D2 was a great game, but we want the game improved...
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/18035-keeping-the-action-in-arpg/page__p__480331__fromsearch__1&#entry480331
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I really think Blizzard is trying to avoid harsh/drastic penalties from dying. According to my post, the only penalty they were using currently was a drop in health that slowly regens. You even get your gear back when you die. While some may complain that this is too easy, one cannot deny that it will allow you to be in the action of the game as much as possible.
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My other question is that if you couldn't beat it with full stats, how do you plan on beating it with dimensioned stats? Of course there is the "take it easy" approach but what about truly hard parts like bosses. If you can't beat the boss the first time, it is unlikely you will be able to beat them if you keep dying and loosing stats.
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I covered the first part already..
the monsters can't and won't respawn for one reason. If you're in a group of 4 people and one person dies, then (using your example), all the monsters would reset as if you just hit that checkpoint. meaning the other 3 people that are in the current location will be surrounded by monsters, and the 4th guy will have to fight his way back..
even if the monsters are 10% of their original strength, its just idiotic to do it that way...
the monsters shouldn't and won't respawn when you die, it makes no sense...
BUT, if after 2 tries, you can't beat something, you either need to re-think what you're doing, stop going head on, or get out of there. A level 2, does no damage in the chaos sanctuary...
Some of you mention de-buffs, that is also a bad idea. We don't want to de-buff the character! thats very bad. you'd just wait the minute until it wears off, then rush back into battle. Mind you, this is a FUN game, not one that they try to make boring. They want the game to be a challenge, not to tax you with so many penalties that its hard.
in D2, in hell difficulty, they didn't make the game harder, they just tacked on a last minute easy way to make the game longer by adding immunities. This made hell difficulty very difficult, if not impossible without an amazing build/armor... You guys are SEARCHING for a way that you will be punished when you die...thats bad..and not fun...
-NO debuffing character
-NO respawning monsters
-NO 33%++ durability loss (somewhere around 17%, you lose durability during the fight as well)
-NO making the character immune for 10 seconds after respawn (if anything, only 1.5 seconds)
Someone asked if the monsters respawn when you go back to town. (i'm answering this logically, no fact or knowledge about what they're doing)...
Each diablo game you create is a single world. if you kill diablo in 1 game, he is dead. period.
a shaman might be able to revive a fallen, but once you kill all the monsters in a single diablo world, then they are gone to oblivion. that is why in d2, you can only do a quest once in a game...
when you remake a game, a new diablo world appears from scratch, and everything re-appears. You don't get a second credit for completing a mission a 2nd++ time, but everything is back...
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team