Where do you stand on this topic? Pro-rights? Pro-life (if so, slow & steady of fast & abrupt style)?
What probably bothers me the most about this is when people say things like "all these pro-life individuals are also pro-execution & pro-war". This logic makes zero sense, since a child is inherently innocent, a convicted criminal is guilty of a crime, and enemy troops are trying to kill OUR people (aka trying to murder them).
By the way, I'm a male conservative registered-Republican, and I'm pro-choice. You don't have to be a democrat or independent to think logically, and there's nothing more logical than everyone making the decision for themselves.
the clear sign of a heartbeat seems likes a good cutoff to me though.
I hope there's at least some people of differing opinions so we could get an interesting debate going on here, all my friends in RL are either atheist or hate society/the government (or all of the above) and "don't give a shit about shit".
My major problem with the whole "no abortion after there's a heartbeat" is, how soon can you detect a heartbeat? I'm not sure (haven't looked into it) but I'm guessing it's pretty soon after conception. What if you didn't know you were pregnant until a few months in? There's too many variables in different lives & situations to make a blanket decision like illegal abortion logical.
Edit: Another thing that pisses me off, why do articles (like the one I linked) ALWAYS refer to incest as rape? I'm sure incest is often also rape (family members doing inappropriate things) but what about consensual incest? To think that consensual incest never occurs is just naive.
I specifically don't want to start a debate on when it's okay to kill a baby, because we'll never come to an agreement. (I might have just started it by saying that)
6-8 weeks is an awfully short period. Many accidental pregnancies aren't discovered before the fifth week and on women with irregular menstrual cycle a pregnancy can remain undetected until visible signs appear.
What all the pro life people don't get is that on the long run banning abortion does no good.
Abortion was a crime for aeons, but since times immemorial, women have used unsanitary make-do abortions, or committed infanticide when their attempts to abort have failed.
If abortion was banned - and countries where this is the case or was the case serve as evidence - abortions are still performed. They are simply performed undercover for a hefty fee. Those well off in society can still have an abortion. All this simply does is exempts poor from having an abortion, further reducing their social chances of having a meaningful life and dooming them into generations of poverty.
That's a total goddamn shame that people are okay with trying to loophole individuals out of abortion rights just because they had no idea they were pregnant prior to discovering the fetus' heartbeat.
Not to mention a spike in suicides because these women who would WANT an abortion but don't want to break the law, instead just take their own lives to end the suffering.
enemy troops are trying to kill OUR people (aka trying to murder them).
There is no OUR people. That is an illusion instilled in you through things like patriotism and the constant division that is distinctly made for you through the media.
We are all conscious beings on a rock divided by some water. That water doesn't make you different. It just means you need a plane or boat to go so a fellow human.
If a group of people is trying to end my life via invasion, yes I will defend myself. But to buy into the idea that you're an American and everyone else is of lesser importance is bogus.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
enemy troops are trying to kill OUR people (aka trying to murder them).
There is no OUR people. That is an illusion instilled in you through things like patriotism and the constant division that is distinctly made for you through the media.
We are all conscious beings on a rock divided by some water. That water doesn't make you different. It just means you need a plane or boat to go so a fellow human.
If a group of people is trying to end my life via invasion, yes I will defend myself. But to buy into the idea that you're an American and everyone else is of lesser importance is bogus.
Please try and keep an open mind, since you don't necessarily know everyone you're communicating with on here. A good example of when I say OUR people I mean <insert your nation's troops here> but personally I was one of those OUR people. So yes, there's a certain amount of pride when it comes to defending myself while on deployment & taking fire, in killing an enemy who is trying to kill me. No one once said "American lives > Non-American lives". You put that in there from your own insecurities & preconceived notions it seems.
6-8 weeks is an awfully short period. Many accidental pregnancies aren't discovered before the fifth week and on women with irregular menstrual cycle a pregnancy can remain undetected until visible signs appear.
if you dont know youre pregnant or might be preggers by 6 weeks then as punishment you have to keep a baby.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
6-8 weeks is an awfully short period. Many accidental pregnancies aren't discovered before the fifth week and on women with irregular menstrual cycle a pregnancy can remain undetected until visible signs appear.
if you dont know youre pregnant or might be preggers by 6 weeks then as punishment you have to keep a baby.
Eh.... 16% into the pregnancy isn't very long whatsoever.... either you're being sarcastic (and I'm too exhausted to tell) or you're being overly harsh IMO.
If a group of people is trying to end my life via invasion, yes I will defend myself. But to buy into the idea that you're an American and everyone else is of lesser importance is bogus.
trolling?
the majority of every group, every country and every religion think they are AT LEAST slightly better then the other groups/countries/religions. having pride in your country and thinking its the best because you love it is not ignorant or bogus you could do that with ANYTHING. putting it on this pedastal makes it "better" then other countries to you, how is this a bad thing?
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
6-8 weeks is an awfully short period. Many accidental pregnancies aren't discovered before the fifth week and on women with irregular menstrual cycle a pregnancy can remain undetected until visible signs appear.
if you dont know youre pregnant or might be preggers by 6 weeks then as punishment you have to keep a baby.
I don't think "keep" is the right word here. Certainly they should have the baby, but there will be at least a few more people who hate their kids because they didn't want them. There's always giving it up for adoption.
It is and always will be a woman's right to choose, regardless of the politics.
The most conservative pro-life family in the town I grew up (the "Boss Hog," types) in had three daughters, all of whom were known to have had abortions. It was not something they talked about, and they were against it in public, but the fact of life is that the mother decides whether or not the time is right to raise a child and unlike in the wild we don't have the option of seeing how it goes and killing it in early childhood if it turns out to be impractical.
Abortions are going to happen, whether pro-lifers like it or not. They have to realize this and take the steps necessary to keep the mothers safe from back-alley operations that would seriously endanger their health: that is, to not criminalize abortion and not attempt to strategically sap funding from all planned parenthood clinics (they have attempted to do both in recent years).
I can't condemn the pro-lifers for caring (or pretending to care, I can't really tell) about life in general, but I have zero respect for someone who decides the life of the mother is less important than that of an under-developed fetus, or that a struggling low-income family should be forced to raise a child with severe birth defects just because it would be morally reprehensible to terminate the pregnancy. This is the kind of talk that gets a lot of pro-life advocates labeled pro-execution/war/death. The fact that many of them are also war-hawks and in favor of state execution is another reason.
the majority of every group, every country and every religion think they are AT LEAST slightly better then the other groups/countries/religions. having pride in your country and thinking its the best because you love it is not ignorant or bogus you could do that with ANYTHING. putting it on this pedastal makes it "better" then other countries to you, how is this a bad thing?
I couldn't disagree more. I sincerely doubt that the majority of every demographic in the world ever considers itself better than everyone else. A groundless opinion like that is nothing but ignorance. Do you believe that the majority of all scientists studying astrophysics consider themselves more important or better than all scientists studying microbial biology? They shouldn't, as both fields are equally important for our future. What I'm trying to imply is that people who consider themselves better than everyone else "just because" is an ignoramus.
Nationalism is nothing but a rejection of reality, as there are good and bad sides to everything, but nationalists tend to mostly look at the good things. I don't like my country particularly more than I like France or the UK when I try my best to compare them objectively. Nationalism requires subjectivity, at least the kind of nationalism you are referring to. It boils down to "you don't like what I like, so you're not as good as I am". How is that not a bad thing?
humans are naturally competetive in nature. you cant disagree with that. every sportsteam for every sport on the planet put themselves above the rest. yes this is sports but EVERYTHING in life people compete. so if your very proud of your country or whatever your going to think its the best, saying everyone is open minded and believes we are all equal is probably the most ignorant statement on the planet earth. any person who thinks that has never been outside of their house or watched tv or read anything in their entire life <_<.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
enemy troops are trying to kill OUR people (aka trying to murder them).
There is no OUR people. That is an illusion instilled in you through things like patriotism and the constant division that is distinctly made for you through the media.
We are all conscious beings on a rock divided by some water. That water doesn't make you different. It just means you need a plane or boat to go so a fellow human.
If a group of people is trying to end my life via invasion, yes I will defend myself. But to buy into the idea that you're an American and everyone else is of lesser importance is bogus.
Please try and keep an open mind, since you don't necessarily know everyone you're communicating with on here. A good example of when I say OUR people I mean <insert your nation's troops here> but personally I was one of those OUR people. So yes, there's a certain amount of pride when it comes to defending myself while on deployment & taking fire, in killing an enemy who is trying to kill me. No one once said "American lives > Non-American lives". You put that in there from your own insecurities & preconceived notions it seems.
I was not making an assumption. I was using an example. Whatever "our" is supposed to specifically represent is irrelevant. The point is that it represents division at it's core. This division is the sole purpose of nationalism and patriotism.
Once you acquire that "pride", you have thus been convinced that "us" and "them" are different. From there you immediately gain preference for "us" because you now associate yourself with "us". This leads to the well being of "us" being equal to the well being of you. This leads to "us against them"
There is no "us against them". That is truly an illusion. Patriotism and Nationalism leads to nothing more than discrimination and even racism.
The biggest joke of all is to even consider it as "us against them". At the VERY least it's "the government controlling us against them". It's a nice bit of trickery to deceive you into thinking that the government=us.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
It's called tribalism. Social cliques come in many shapes and sizes from the nuclear family, extended family, and friends, all the way up to nations, language groups, and coalitions of international power blocks.
As far as it being an inherently negative or positive, I think that depends on how blind that tribal sentiment is and more importantly, where the source of said tribal fervor stems from. Knowing what one is proud of rather than simple being proud because not being proud is frowned upon. Considering the virtues of the "other," along with their drawbacks.
It seems entirely plausible that someone could have pride in being a member of some group, while still being critical of what the group did, as well as respecting members of other groups. But, of course, we should condemn any group of people that arbitrarily uses tribal rhetoric to instigate something we should objectively consider a questionable choice of action.
You are correct. It isn't inherently bad. But, as far as America is concerned for a large majority, those divisions can quickly turn ugly.
Town to town pride erupts in violence all of the time. State to state rivalries are even more dangerous. Then there are divisions like North and South. East and west. North and south resulted in millions dead. East and west has resulted in many deaths through gang related and music influenced feuds.
It's honestly like being associated with a gang. Wearing colors like red and gold, or blue green and orange in a state like Alabama at the wrong place and time could get you in very hot water.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You are correct. It isn't inherently bad. But, as far as America is concerned for a large majority, those divisions can quickly turn ugly.
Town to town pride erupts in violence all of the time. State to state rivalries are even more dangerous. Then there are divisions like North and South. East and west. North and south resulted in millions dead. East and west has resulted in many deaths through gang related and music influenced feuds.
It's honestly like being associated with a gang. Wearing colors like red and gold, or blue green and orange in a state like Alabama at the wrong place and time could get you in very hot water.
if your wanting the world to suddenly be accepting of everyone...thats a pretty far fetched delusion that wont ever happen regardless of what happens in history or how much time passes. there will ALWAYS be racism and segregation. there will always be different countries with different governments demanding different things. if the world wasn't this way, it would be pretty boring.
America is FAR from the greatest place on earth or greatest nation. It seems a lot of Americans are under the delusion that they are better than everyone else and its their way or the highway. its why a lot of people hate America and gives them a bad reputation.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I don't know how unavoidable a given level of tribalism is, but the invective that any amount of competitive rivalry is a moral hazard seems far-fetched. As for there always being the level of tribalism that is expressed by wanton segregation, I think that's equally far-fetched. More progressive social norms have eroded a lot of racial and religious tribalism in the 20th century.
In terms of Americans being hated for nationalistic fervor, I disagree. It is hated because it exerts a disproportionate amount of influence on the rest of the world. The amount of nationalism here is roughly equivalent to what you might find in latin america, europe, and russia. It is actually a lot less than you'll traditionally find in asia.
I don't know how unavoidable a given level of tribalism is, but the invective that any amount of competitive rivalry is a moral hazard seems far-fetched. As for there always being the level of tribalism that is expressed by wanton segregation, I think that's equally far-fetched. More progressive social norms have eroded a lot of racial and religious tribalism in the 20th century.
In terms of Americans being hated for nationalistic fervor, I disagree. It is hated because it exerts a disproportionate amount of influence on the rest of the world. The amount of nationalism here is roughly equivalent to what you might find in latin america, europe, and russia. It is actually a lot less than you'll traditionally find in asia.
you believe all racism and segregation will someday be non existent?
America acts like that douche who's in everyone's business. they have to be in everyone's shit and drama all the time or they arent satisfied, and they care more about being in other peoples shit then their own problems.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
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Where do you stand on this topic? Pro-rights? Pro-life (if so, slow & steady of fast & abrupt style)?
What probably bothers me the most about this is when people say things like "all these pro-life individuals are also pro-execution & pro-war". This logic makes zero sense, since a child is inherently innocent, a convicted criminal is guilty of a crime, and enemy troops are trying to kill OUR people (aka trying to murder them).
By the way, I'm a male conservative registered-Republican, and I'm pro-choice. You don't have to be a democrat or independent to think logically, and there's nothing more logical than everyone making the decision for themselves.
the clear sign of a heartbeat seems likes a good cutoff to me though.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
I hope there's at least some people of differing opinions so we could get an interesting debate going on here, all my friends in RL are either atheist or hate society/the government (or all of the above) and "don't give a shit about shit".
My major problem with the whole "no abortion after there's a heartbeat" is, how soon can you detect a heartbeat? I'm not sure (haven't looked into it) but I'm guessing it's pretty soon after conception. What if you didn't know you were pregnant until a few months in? There's too many variables in different lives & situations to make a blanket decision like illegal abortion logical.
Edit: Another thing that pisses me off, why do articles (like the one I linked) ALWAYS refer to incest as rape? I'm sure incest is often also rape (family members doing inappropriate things) but what about consensual incest? To think that consensual incest never occurs is just naive.
If you wanna kill some kids in the meantime, while waiting for the debate to catch fire, here's an option; http://www.curse.com/mods/skyrim/killable-children
I'm still trying to get it to work, I didn't buy my copy of Skyrim from Steam.
That's a total goddamn shame that people are okay with trying to loophole individuals out of abortion rights just because they had no idea they were pregnant prior to discovering the fetus' heartbeat.
Not to mention a spike in suicides because these women who would WANT an abortion but don't want to break the law, instead just take their own lives to end the suffering.
There is no OUR people. That is an illusion instilled in you through things like patriotism and the constant division that is distinctly made for you through the media.
We are all conscious beings on a rock divided by some water. That water doesn't make you different. It just means you need a plane or boat to go so a fellow human.
If a group of people is trying to end my life via invasion, yes I will defend myself. But to buy into the idea that you're an American and everyone else is of lesser importance is bogus.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Please try and keep an open mind, since you don't necessarily know everyone you're communicating with on here. A good example of when I say OUR people I mean <insert your nation's troops here> but personally I was one of those OUR people. So yes, there's a certain amount of pride when it comes to defending myself while on deployment & taking fire, in killing an enemy who is trying to kill me. No one once said "American lives > Non-American lives". You put that in there from your own insecurities & preconceived notions it seems.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Eh.... 16% into the pregnancy isn't very long whatsoever.... either you're being sarcastic (and I'm too exhausted to tell) or you're being overly harsh IMO.
trolling?
the majority of every group, every country and every religion think they are AT LEAST slightly better then the other groups/countries/religions. having pride in your country and thinking its the best because you love it is not ignorant or bogus you could do that with ANYTHING. putting it on this pedastal makes it "better" then other countries to you, how is this a bad thing?
The most conservative pro-life family in the town I grew up (the "Boss Hog," types) in had three daughters, all of whom were known to have had abortions. It was not something they talked about, and they were against it in public, but the fact of life is that the mother decides whether or not the time is right to raise a child and unlike in the wild we don't have the option of seeing how it goes and killing it in early childhood if it turns out to be impractical.
Abortions are going to happen, whether pro-lifers like it or not. They have to realize this and take the steps necessary to keep the mothers safe from back-alley operations that would seriously endanger their health: that is, to not criminalize abortion and not attempt to strategically sap funding from all planned parenthood clinics (they have attempted to do both in recent years).
I can't condemn the pro-lifers for caring (or pretending to care, I can't really tell) about life in general, but I have zero respect for someone who decides the life of the mother is less important than that of an under-developed fetus, or that a struggling low-income family should be forced to raise a child with severe birth defects just because it would be morally reprehensible to terminate the pregnancy. This is the kind of talk that gets a lot of pro-life advocates labeled pro-execution/war/death. The fact that many of them are also war-hawks and in favor of state execution is another reason.
humans are naturally competetive in nature. you cant disagree with that. every sportsteam for every sport on the planet put themselves above the rest. yes this is sports but EVERYTHING in life people compete. so if your very proud of your country or whatever your going to think its the best, saying everyone is open minded and believes we are all equal is probably the most ignorant statement on the planet earth. any person who thinks that has never been outside of their house or watched tv or read anything in their entire life <_<.
I was not making an assumption. I was using an example. Whatever "our" is supposed to specifically represent is irrelevant. The point is that it represents division at it's core. This division is the sole purpose of nationalism and patriotism.
Once you acquire that "pride", you have thus been convinced that "us" and "them" are different. From there you immediately gain preference for "us" because you now associate yourself with "us". This leads to the well being of "us" being equal to the well being of you. This leads to "us against them"
There is no "us against them". That is truly an illusion. Patriotism and Nationalism leads to nothing more than discrimination and even racism.
The biggest joke of all is to even consider it as "us against them". At the VERY least it's "the government controlling us against them". It's a nice bit of trickery to deceive you into thinking that the government=us.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
As far as it being an inherently negative or positive, I think that depends on how blind that tribal sentiment is and more importantly, where the source of said tribal fervor stems from. Knowing what one is proud of rather than simple being proud because not being proud is frowned upon. Considering the virtues of the "other," along with their drawbacks.
It seems entirely plausible that someone could have pride in being a member of some group, while still being critical of what the group did, as well as respecting members of other groups. But, of course, we should condemn any group of people that arbitrarily uses tribal rhetoric to instigate something we should objectively consider a questionable choice of action.
Town to town pride erupts in violence all of the time. State to state rivalries are even more dangerous. Then there are divisions like North and South. East and west. North and south resulted in millions dead. East and west has resulted in many deaths through gang related and music influenced feuds.
It's honestly like being associated with a gang. Wearing colors like red and gold, or blue green and orange in a state like Alabama at the wrong place and time could get you in very hot water.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
if your wanting the world to suddenly be accepting of everyone...thats a pretty far fetched delusion that wont ever happen regardless of what happens in history or how much time passes. there will ALWAYS be racism and segregation. there will always be different countries with different governments demanding different things. if the world wasn't this way, it would be pretty boring.
America is FAR from the greatest place on earth or greatest nation. It seems a lot of Americans are under the delusion that they are better than everyone else and its their way or the highway. its why a lot of people hate America and gives them a bad reputation.
I don't know how unavoidable a given level of tribalism is, but the invective that any amount of competitive rivalry is a moral hazard seems far-fetched. As for there always being the level of tribalism that is expressed by wanton segregation, I think that's equally far-fetched. More progressive social norms have eroded a lot of racial and religious tribalism in the 20th century.
In terms of Americans being hated for nationalistic fervor, I disagree. It is hated because it exerts a disproportionate amount of influence on the rest of the world. The amount of nationalism here is roughly equivalent to what you might find in latin america, europe, and russia. It is actually a lot less than you'll traditionally find in asia.
you believe all racism and segregation will someday be non existent?
America acts like that douche who's in everyone's business. they have to be in everyone's shit and drama all the time or they arent satisfied, and they care more about being in other peoples shit then their own problems.