I have a suggestion for a sweet Monk passive, and I want to run it by you guys to see what you think. It could either be a new passive (monks have less than other classes) or just replace one of the existing passives (There's quite a few with very low usage. I'm looking at you, sixth sense!)
Master's Technique:When using a Daibo, your damage is reduced by X%, but your attack speed is increased by X%.
A few points on my reasoning:
The 'X%' values are debatable, but should end up in a net increase in sheet dps. After all, it should still be a beneficial passive. Mind you, I'm looking at pretty big numbers, so a Daibo's speed is actually comparable to dual wielding.
Diabos should be fast. If a monk wants a slow, hard hitting weapon, he can use an axe or a maul. This is a shoalin staff damnit. However, I understand that increasing the base speed for all diabos will ruin some Tempest Rush builds. This passive makes the whole scenario optional.
I like the Heavenly Strength style passive that gives one thing and takes away another. They are more interesting IMO.
For all I care this passive can also have additional effects, or even a different effect for Fist Weapons included in the description. The focus here is the Daibo speed though.
Im sorry, but this is not really a good idea. The general philosophy behind using "any" two hander is to limit resource spending. This passive breaks this philosophy twice. For part is youre lowering the damage dealt by two handers. Two handers only have an advantage over 1 handers when you need a high top end damage for hits. If you are going for raw dps, one handers will most likely still hold supreme even with the buffs coming in 2.1 to two handers.
The second reason is you're increasing the swing speed. This causes a large use in resources. If you look at most popular diabos you'll see that they have huge amounts of cdr or are part of a set or even give this high attack speed you desire.
Tldr; 2H are meant to hit hard not fast, diabos are already one of the fastest melee two handers in game
Im sorry, but this is not really a good idea. The general philosophy behind using "any" two hander is to limit resource spending. This passive breaks this philosophy twice. For part is youre lowering the damage dealt by two handers. Two handers only have an advantage over 1 handers when you need a high top end damage for hits. If you are going for raw dps, one handers will most likely still hold supreme even with the buffs coming in 2.1 to two handers.
The second reason is you're increasing the swing speed. This causes a large use in resources. If you look at most popular diabos you'll see that they have huge amounts of cdr or are part of a set or even give this high attack speed you desire.
Tldr; 2H are meant to hit hard not fast, diabos are already one of the fastest melee two handers in game
I agree with this statement. I would rather see something like "Your prowess with a daibo gives you a XX% chance to reflect projectiles."
@staudey, patience, 2.1 is right around the corner and before monks see any other buffs i can confirm t6 is viable with my current holy monk. With the next round of buffs i can see it becoming competitive in t6
BT: Teamkiller#1505
@Thorn, That passive looks pretty good, and if not that, i remember reading about a chance proc. Ex. Passive- quick hands- while wielding a diabo you have an x% chance to strike a second time with the same attack dealing x% times the original damage. This way you keep the hard hitting two handers, and you give the illusion of attacking faster. This also allows more knobs to turn for tuning.
A passive that bumps the APS on daibos by a certain amount w/o affecting damage would be a nice addition. This passive would have to only apply to daibos also like Monkey King's Garb 2pc bonus. Bumping APS to 1.3 or 1.4 would be nice.
Like was mentioned above, I also envision Shaolin monks with their very-fast-attacking staves when I think of daibos. Putting it in action would be difficult though since 2-handers with 1-h attack speed but 2-h damage range would tick the dps numbers way too high probably. Giving daibos 1h stats would hurt overall damage if using 1h damage range w/o the benefit of extra stats from an offhand.
@staudey, patience, 2.1 is right around the corner and before monks see any other buffs i can confirm t6 is viable with my current holy monk. With the next round of buffs i can see it becoming competitive in t6
BT: Teamkiller#1505
@Thorn, That passive looks pretty good, and if not that, i remember reading about a chance proc. Ex. Passive- quick hands- while wielding a diabo you have an x% chance to strike a second time with the same attack dealing x% times the original damage. This way you keep the hard hitting two handers, and you give the illusion of attacking faster. This also allows more knobs to turn for tuning.
Edit: spell check
Another option could be "Counter-Attack: You have X% chance on hit to automatically strike back at your attacker with a random spirit generator."
Im sorry, but this is not really a good idea. The general philosophy behind using "any" two hander is to limit resource spending. This passive breaks this philosophy twice. For part is youre lowering the damage dealt by two handers. Two handers only have an advantage over 1 handers when you need a high top end damage for hits. If you are going for raw dps, one handers will most likely still hold supreme even with the buffs coming in 2.1 to two handers.
The second reason is you're increasing the swing speed. This causes a large use in resources. If you look at most popular diabos you'll see that they have huge amounts of cdr or are part of a set or even give this high attack speed you desire.
Tldr; 2H are meant to hit hard not fast, diabos are already one of the fastest melee two handers in game
I respectfully disagree.
Although I see your reasoning, I just feel like even though that is the nature of D3, that doesn't mean that's the only way D3 can be. There's absolutely no reason why there can not exist a high-speed 2 hander. 2-hands doesn't always mean heavier, sometimes it can just mean larger.
By that logic, would you prefer that passive if it also added a flat % block chance? For some true combat staff action. Remember, a passive is optional. If you want to hit slow with your two handers, then this one is not for you. Does not make it bad.
Of course they have a trade-off. If they didn't, 2H would always be a substantially better option than dual wield, due to higher skill dmg.
To put it simply:
Dual Wield = more CC procs, fast atk spd - generator focused.
2H = higher dmg on skills (particularly non-gen which uses the main hand weapon to calculate dmg), slow atk spd - spender focused.
From this basic analysis, you can see that adding atk spd to 2H would completely ruin the balance between dual wield and 2H. Similarly, buffing 1H dmg to ridiculous levels would also break balance, because it would offer a fast hitting heavy dmg option. The idea is, slow heavy hits vs quick light strikes. Offering a 3rd option of quick heavy strikes makes options 1 and 2 completely worthless. It is for precisely this reason that we only have 1 item which allows us to use such a build (Flying Dragon), and that item slot has its own trade-offs (could use other legs, i.e rimeheart + FoA, an FoE, Incense Torch, 1h proc weps - SoH, TF, Odyn, Fulminator for even more CC, when used with a wyrdward, and some supplemental dmg also) which helps to maintain balance.
As for the counter-balance which the dual wield effect may add (stated by OP), the only viable means to re-balance this change would be to add dmg to 1 handers. This would make the passive essential for all monk builds (this is bad), limiting build diversity.
Ultimately 2H was not built with generators in mind, because this is their weak point. They more than make up for this with their added dmg, particularly on skills such as EP, SSS, LTK, WoL, and even sweeping wind, if they do choose to go for a generator build. With the new fist weapon, the choice will be either 10 stacks of standard dmg (dual wield), or 3 stacks of double dmg (2H). This works out as being roughly 10 (Dual) vs 6 (2H). 2H monks have other choices for weapons, those choices suit their own strengths better, and will work more effectively for them (sunwuko + madstone + EP + SSS + FoE = nuff said).
The current balance between Dual Wield and 2H is better than it ever has been before. Adding more atk spd on 2H would completely break this balance. For this reason I completely disagree with the suggestion to implement such a change, particularly when generators are receiving an atk spd buff already (this will make future 2H perform similar to current dual wield in terms of atk spd - some minor stat rolls may need to move to atk spd to do this, but not many). In all honesty, I'm perfectly fine with my 2H's performance at 1.65 aps (very easy to get - witching hour + atk spd on 1 ring + STI). There may be another atk spd stat somewhere, maybe glove. Either way, you don't need to stack huge amounts of atk spd to make 2H generators an effective skill (they are dealing 2x the dmg per hit after all).
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I have a suggestion for a sweet Monk passive, and I want to run it by you guys to see what you think. It could either be a new passive (monks have less than other classes) or just replace one of the existing passives (There's quite a few with very low usage. I'm looking at you, sixth sense!)
Master's Technique:When using a Daibo, your damage is reduced by X%, but your attack speed is increased by X%.
A few points on my reasoning:
Billy,
The second reason is you're increasing the swing speed. This causes a large use in resources. If you look at most popular diabos you'll see that they have huge amounts of cdr or are part of a set or even give this high attack speed you desire.
Tldr; 2H are meant to hit hard not fast, diabos are already one of the fastest melee two handers in game
i really want sunwukos set to do work, it could be so fun if daibos were actually a good high difficulty build.
BT: Teamkiller#1505
@Thorn, That passive looks pretty good, and if not that, i remember reading about a chance proc. Ex. Passive- quick hands- while wielding a diabo you have an x% chance to strike a second time with the same attack dealing x% times the original damage. This way you keep the hard hitting two handers, and you give the illusion of attacking faster. This also allows more knobs to turn for tuning.
Edit: spell check
Like was mentioned above, I also envision Shaolin monks with their very-fast-attacking staves when I think of daibos. Putting it in action would be difficult though since 2-handers with 1-h attack speed but 2-h damage range would tick the dps numbers way too high probably. Giving daibos 1h stats would hurt overall damage if using 1h damage range w/o the benefit of extra stats from an offhand.
Although I see your reasoning, I just feel like even though that is the nature of D3, that doesn't mean that's the only way D3 can be. There's absolutely no reason why there can not exist a high-speed 2 hander. 2-hands doesn't always mean heavier, sometimes it can just mean larger.
By that logic, would you prefer that passive if it also added a flat % block chance? For some true combat staff action. Remember, a passive is optional. If you want to hit slow with your two handers, then this one is not for you. Does not make it bad.
1. Atk spd stat on gears - wep / ammy / rings / gloves / bracers: lacuni prowler or steady strikers / belt: witching hour.
2. STI passive - in 2.1.
3. Flying Dragon - Extremely high speed 2H which can refresh buff during buff duration (and from what I hear, they stack on top of each other).
4. Gorgok of Swiftness - 2.1 leg gem - gain atk spd and cdr stacks on hit.
5. Atk spd on paragon points - This is pretty much a given though.
6. Mantra of Retribution - Transgression
7. Increased generator atk speed in next PTR build - This isn't even an option. You're getting this bonus whether you want it or not.
Frankly the above mentioned options provide more than enough APS with a 2H.
To put it simply:
Dual Wield = more CC procs, fast atk spd - generator focused.
2H = higher dmg on skills (particularly non-gen which uses the main hand weapon to calculate dmg), slow atk spd - spender focused.
From this basic analysis, you can see that adding atk spd to 2H would completely ruin the balance between dual wield and 2H. Similarly, buffing 1H dmg to ridiculous levels would also break balance, because it would offer a fast hitting heavy dmg option. The idea is, slow heavy hits vs quick light strikes. Offering a 3rd option of quick heavy strikes makes options 1 and 2 completely worthless. It is for precisely this reason that we only have 1 item which allows us to use such a build (Flying Dragon), and that item slot has its own trade-offs (could use other legs, i.e rimeheart + FoA, an FoE, Incense Torch, 1h proc weps - SoH, TF, Odyn, Fulminator for even more CC, when used with a wyrdward, and some supplemental dmg also) which helps to maintain balance.
As for the counter-balance which the dual wield effect may add (stated by OP), the only viable means to re-balance this change would be to add dmg to 1 handers. This would make the passive essential for all monk builds (this is bad), limiting build diversity.
Ultimately 2H was not built with generators in mind, because this is their weak point. They more than make up for this with their added dmg, particularly on skills such as EP, SSS, LTK, WoL, and even sweeping wind, if they do choose to go for a generator build. With the new fist weapon, the choice will be either 10 stacks of standard dmg (dual wield), or 3 stacks of double dmg (2H). This works out as being roughly 10 (Dual) vs 6 (2H). 2H monks have other choices for weapons, those choices suit their own strengths better, and will work more effectively for them (sunwuko + madstone + EP + SSS + FoE = nuff said).
The current balance between Dual Wield and 2H is better than it ever has been before. Adding more atk spd on 2H would completely break this balance. For this reason I completely disagree with the suggestion to implement such a change, particularly when generators are receiving an atk spd buff already (this will make future 2H perform similar to current dual wield in terms of atk spd - some minor stat rolls may need to move to atk spd to do this, but not many). In all honesty, I'm perfectly fine with my 2H's performance at 1.65 aps (very easy to get - witching hour + atk spd on 1 ring + STI). There may be another atk spd stat somewhere, maybe glove. Either way, you don't need to stack huge amounts of atk spd to make 2H generators an effective skill (they are dealing 2x the dmg per hit after all).