I'm not sure how well this will be regarded here, I imagine mixed feelings perhaps, let me open this with a bit of a intro to who I am.
I think myself as the kind of person who represents the 'every gamer'. The general public, while I know that this is generally impossible, just due to the broad spectrum of "what is a gamer", I'd like to think a safe medium is about. I've been playing games for as long as anyone else, which is to say, since I was a child. I'm no novice when it comes to it.
I prefer to play my games at a nice pace, which is to say, at a rate where I am having fun, and getting the maximum enjoyment out of things.
This is where the main subject of the thread starts. As I said, I play my games at a pace in which I have fun, and I've tried the whole "Ooooh you got to go fast and do this small quick run or you are doing it inefficiently!" sort of thing, just to see how it faired up, and how I liked it. It started off with keep runs, which I have to say, I like those. It's three levels in my favorite act, and it's well timed enough to keep my interest. I made my own little addition by going to the forward barracks just outside Bastion's keep, because it's basicly the same thing. I later tried the whole Wife runs debacle, but that was short lived, I outgrew it even before it got nerfed. Later my brother in law said he found what was called the most efficient, best runs ever. He took me into act 3, which I was excited about, then we went into the core of arreat, and just ran that one small place, opening all the chests, vessels, and bones, ignoring most of the whites, doing only the easy elites/champs, and then repeating.
Way to ruin my favorite act. He then showed me somehow an even more boring act, which is the first quest you get in the game, which is to kill those Wretched Mothers.
I'm going to say this. I understand this is a game where you find your own enjoyment, and this is largely going to sound like a complain thread, but perhaps this can also adress a possible problem.
Is this kind of mindset unhealthy for the game's longevity? Is finding a small, quick 2-3 minute run really good? Why is it people demand such quick run throughs, when the point of a game should be in it's longevity. Sure you might acrue EXP much more with your COTA runs, or your splt bounty things. But wheres the genuine fun in that? If you take time in the game, you would forge much more meaningful experiences with the game, would you not? What would you rather remember? That time you got 50 paragon levels doing the same boring 2 minute run that you can quote to the letter, or that time where you and your best friend found an amazing legendary from one of those suiciders that also murdered you? I'd much rather the second, because forging funny memories is what a game should bring. It should -not- feel like a second job that you don't even get payed for, no matter how good you get at it.
What do you guys think? Is a 'go go go' attitude unhealthy for D3 in the long run? Or should this be something that shifts to the upcoming Ladder mode?(Sorry if the polls are biased)
I'm not sure it's a "speed run" attitude, it's more a matter of how long one instance of a game should last. I personally don't like to open a new game every 5 minutes, or even worse (chest runs) every 30 seconds. Rifts can be rather short, too, like 5-10 minutes, but I'm fine with that because they are different; it's like visiting many different zones.
Are they dangerous for the game's health? That depends. If a method is so much better that you HAVE to do it, it can wear out. For example, I really need the Ring of Royal Grandeur, and the only way to get this as fast as possible is to run act 1 Normal split farm bounties. I don't like that, but I occasionally still do it on Torment 1 (at least chance for set items) because I really need to get the ring and doing this particular thing is my only chance for it.
Chest runs are said to be more efficient, but I personally don't believe that. We have done a couple of hours of chest runs as well, actually even before the hotfix, and then many hours of Torment 1 rifts, and didn't feel we were getting significantly more legendaries doing the chest runs. Plus, you miss out on all the other stuff (blood shards, XP, gems, crafting materials) and it was just super insanely boring for us. That's why I'm having no issue with chest runs - people who run those for 10 hours straight would probably get almost the same legendaries/hour rate if they'd put the same effort into running Torment rifts as efficiently. But just guessing here. Don't really care; even if chest runs are more efficient, I know that I'd quit the game after 2 days, so in the end it would not be more successful for me :-)
I think these game-breaking issues are dangerous for the game if they do the following:
Force players into doing a specific thing. For example, the HotA3 Cursed Chest runs at the beginning of 2.0.1 were just order of magnitudes better than and other method to gain XP.
Damage the "economy"/"environment". Not economy in the traditional meaning of D3V, but an item's impact on the community. For example, some items are super overpowered, it is what Travis said himself by pointing out the example of the immunity to fire necklace - but it's super rare. If this item would become very common through one of these "cheesy methods" and the game's content would be buffed because of it, all players who wouldn't use the exploit to acquire this item would be screwed. It's kind of again forcing players into doing something just to get this item.
Damage to the server's health. All the people creating ~100 games per hour actually makes me wonder if those are the reasons why sometimes there are still lags in RoS. As I've said a million times, just restrict the amount of games you can open per hour to something like 10 max. It would only count if you leave town though, so changing to twinks to get crafting materials wouldn't be an issue.
I actually think they need to re-introduce NV stacks (although with not as much +stuff per stack, but with a higher limit), and have them only accrued outside of bounty/rift zones. Currently, there's absolutely no reason to stick around once the rift boss has died, or the bounties are done. Much as I like adventure mode's added incentives, sometimes I just want to mess around in the big wide world, grinding away on the same instance with no particular goal in mind (or maybe chasing rare spawns for achievements)... at the moment, that's empirically the worst option, which is kind of a bummer. If you want go-go-go gameplay, that's there, but ATM there's no room for a good, long farming session.
I voted "Yes" but I disagree with them "wearing the game out faster."
I think that trying to boil the game down to "Kill Manglemaw 910238021830291830291809123821903821039821 hundred billion times as fast as possible" is just bad because it's streamer mentality - must maximize everything. It is bad, as Bagstone said, IF it infects the average gamer because then the average gamer isn't paying attention to the scene outside the window of the train as they travel cross-country, they just care that the train gets there 7 seconds faster. And, I believe, for the average gamer, that is a very bad mentality to have as the journey is just as important as the destination.
There is a tendency for people who frequent game forums to believe that they in any way represent a majority of the population of said game. It's just not true- the people who make their way here are enthusiasts, people who want the numbers and the formula to min/max their characters. Granted, I am not saying that is the *only* reason people come to places like this, much less the only reason they stay, but people who just play the game to play the game are doing just that. They're not here talking about it.
People who discuss speed runs or borderline exploits are really just sealing their own fate in a way. As in, they are ensuring that their method is noticed and rectified by Blizzard all the much faster. The makers of this game did not intend for it to be 'speed run', or at least did not intend for this method of holding mechanics hostage until an unquenchable loot ransom is met to be a mainstay for players. It is your right to disagree and disregard this as much as you like, but nobody can deny that every broken chest, spawn, route, checkpoint reset, etc. that allows you even the slightest advantage is hotfixed the moment it becomes popular.
So maybe that's your game. Maybe you like to play 'how long can I get away with this before Blizzard notices?' and you feel really clever for gaming the game, as it would be. It doesn't really affect me, so have at it. But don't talk about it on an open forum and then balk at the fact that people judge you over it; it ought not matter, but there's something to be said about people who waste an inordinate amount of time looking for loopholes in life, such that you wonder if they're missing far more than they gain.
It's only as good or bad as you let it affect your game. Personally, i like knowing what the most efficient way is to do something. I dont do it most of the time cause it is boring, but knowledge is good. How you spend your game time is still up to you in the end.
It's only as good or bad as you let it affect your game. Personally, i like knowing what the most efficient way is to do something. I dont do it most of the time cause it is boring, but knowledge is good. How you spend your game time is still up to you in the end.
That really only applies to solo games, not multiplayer, which is where the whole "It doesn't affect you" thing falls down. Once a certain mindset reaches saturation, it can make it tricky to stick to your preferred style in a multiplayer setting. For example, I just hit 70 with a Crusader that had crappy gear, and wanted to do some adventure mode at normal difficulty to gear up... but since split-farming has become so ubiquitous, I actually couldn't find a normal adventure-mode game that wasn't a group of overgeared players trying to knock out bounties as fast as possible. I even got kicked from two games for taking too long. That's far from ideal.
That really only applies to solo games, not multiplayer, which is where the whole "It doesn't affect you" thing falls down. Once a certain mindset reaches saturation, it can make it tricky to stick to your preferred style in a multiplayer setting. For example, I just hit 70 with a Crusader that had crappy gear, and wanted to do some adventure mode at normal difficulty to gear up... but since split-farming has become so ubiquitous, I actually couldn't find a normal adventure-mode game that wasn't a group of overgeared players trying to knock out bounties as fast as possible. I even got kicked from two games for taking too long. That's far from ideal.
Try joining a game on Hard. People only split farm normal. Anyways, the flaw is not with the players' attitude, but Blizz not separating out Bounty vs Rift in game making, like they have with monster slaying vs key runs.
I think myself as the kind of person who represents the 'every gamer'. The general public, while I know that this is generally impossible, just due to the broad spectrum of "what is a gamer", I'd like to think a safe medium is about. I've been playing games for as long as anyone else, which is to say, since I was a child. I'm no novice when it comes to it.
I prefer to play my games at a nice pace, which is to say, at a rate where I am having fun, and getting the maximum enjoyment out of things.
This is where the main subject of the thread starts. As I said, I play my games at a pace in which I have fun, and I've tried the whole "Ooooh you got to go fast and do this small quick run or you are doing it inefficiently!" sort of thing, just to see how it faired up, and how I liked it. It started off with keep runs, which I have to say, I like those. It's three levels in my favorite act, and it's well timed enough to keep my interest. I made my own little addition by going to the forward barracks just outside Bastion's keep, because it's basicly the same thing. I later tried the whole Wife runs debacle, but that was short lived, I outgrew it even before it got nerfed. Later my brother in law said he found what was called the most efficient, best runs ever. He took me into act 3, which I was excited about, then we went into the core of arreat, and just ran that one small place, opening all the chests, vessels, and bones, ignoring most of the whites, doing only the easy elites/champs, and then repeating.
Way to ruin my favorite act. He then showed me somehow an even more boring act, which is the first quest you get in the game, which is to kill those Wretched Mothers.
I'm going to say this. I understand this is a game where you find your own enjoyment, and this is largely going to sound like a complain thread, but perhaps this can also adress a possible problem.
Is this kind of mindset unhealthy for the game's longevity? Is finding a small, quick 2-3 minute run really good? Why is it people demand such quick run throughs, when the point of a game should be in it's longevity. Sure you might acrue EXP much more with your COTA runs, or your splt bounty things. But wheres the genuine fun in that? If you take time in the game, you would forge much more meaningful experiences with the game, would you not? What would you rather remember? That time you got 50 paragon levels doing the same boring 2 minute run that you can quote to the letter, or that time where you and your best friend found an amazing legendary from one of those suiciders that also murdered you? I'd much rather the second, because forging funny memories is what a game should bring. It should -not- feel like a second job that you don't even get payed for, no matter how good you get at it.
What do you guys think? Is a 'go go go' attitude unhealthy for D3 in the long run? Or should this be something that shifts to the upcoming Ladder mode?(Sorry if the polls are biased)
Are they dangerous for the game's health? That depends. If a method is so much better that you HAVE to do it, it can wear out. For example, I really need the Ring of Royal Grandeur, and the only way to get this as fast as possible is to run act 1 Normal split farm bounties. I don't like that, but I occasionally still do it on Torment 1 (at least chance for set items) because I really need to get the ring and doing this particular thing is my only chance for it.
Chest runs are said to be more efficient, but I personally don't believe that. We have done a couple of hours of chest runs as well, actually even before the hotfix, and then many hours of Torment 1 rifts, and didn't feel we were getting significantly more legendaries doing the chest runs. Plus, you miss out on all the other stuff (blood shards, XP, gems, crafting materials) and it was just super insanely boring for us. That's why I'm having no issue with chest runs - people who run those for 10 hours straight would probably get almost the same legendaries/hour rate if they'd put the same effort into running Torment rifts as efficiently. But just guessing here. Don't really care; even if chest runs are more efficient, I know that I'd quit the game after 2 days, so in the end it would not be more successful for me :-)
I think these game-breaking issues are dangerous for the game if they do the following:
I think that trying to boil the game down to "Kill Manglemaw 910238021830291830291809123821903821039821 hundred billion times as fast as possible" is just bad because it's streamer mentality - must maximize everything. It is bad, as Bagstone said, IF it infects the average gamer because then the average gamer isn't paying attention to the scene outside the window of the train as they travel cross-country, they just care that the train gets there 7 seconds faster. And, I believe, for the average gamer, that is a very bad mentality to have as the journey is just as important as the destination.
People who discuss speed runs or borderline exploits are really just sealing their own fate in a way. As in, they are ensuring that their method is noticed and rectified by Blizzard all the much faster. The makers of this game did not intend for it to be 'speed run', or at least did not intend for this method of holding mechanics hostage until an unquenchable loot ransom is met to be a mainstay for players. It is your right to disagree and disregard this as much as you like, but nobody can deny that every broken chest, spawn, route, checkpoint reset, etc. that allows you even the slightest advantage is hotfixed the moment it becomes popular.
So maybe that's your game. Maybe you like to play 'how long can I get away with this before Blizzard notices?' and you feel really clever for gaming the game, as it would be. It doesn't really affect me, so have at it. But don't talk about it on an open forum and then balk at the fact that people judge you over it; it ought not matter, but there's something to be said about people who waste an inordinate amount of time looking for loopholes in life, such that you wonder if they're missing far more than they gain.
Battle.net profile
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Try joining a game on Hard. People only split farm normal. Anyways, the flaw is not with the players' attitude, but Blizz not separating out Bounty vs Rift in game making, like they have with monster slaying vs key runs.