Improving Rune System

  • #23
    Wizard suggestions look great! +1
  • #24
    Quote from Cacerola

    I suggest bringing the old nova back, being the base damage physical with a chance to knockback targets.

    This sounds too much like the current Wave of Force.

    Excellent ideas across the board at any rate. I especially like the suggestions to Ray of Frost.
  • #25
    I didn't think about particular skills yet but it crossed my mind that you could expand the system by adding subrunes which alter the first tier of runes slightly (for example longer duration vs reduced cost). They could be acquired by reaching Paragon levels or as drops.

    Alts: 60 DH; 60 Barb; 60 Wiz; 60 Monk; 52 Barb
    D3 HC Death compilations
  • #26
    My remarks about the Rune system, especially in concern toward the monk, what's with all the fire skills?

    There needs to be a wider spectrum of elemental/physical effects. Frozen, spikes, earth, water.......almost everything is fire and wind.

    What could they offer to make other Monk builds (aside from FoT-clap) truly viable without nerfing Sweeping Winds and Thunderclap? I would suggest adding similar effects to other runes that can proc at a high rate.
    BurningRope#1322
  • #27
    Quote from Sagathiest

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Zera

    just scratch the game and start over or add another skill system more like the original d2 than then further modified the spells

    I have no issues with the skill system, and definately dont think D2s was better.

    The best way to describe it is, in order for you to know what spells you like you need to be able to try them. So any systemt that forces you to choose a spell, be locked into it, before ever even using it is not fun to me.....at all. Even if you can reset them, it's an annoyance to try something, see it fails, then jump through hoops to try something else. D2 was a great system for it's time. Games have evolved since then, and that type of system is obsolete now.


    I like to experiment too, but once i have picked a skill that i like i want to be able to feel like i can invest in it and improve it to make it better. In diablo 3 i cant.

    The Diablo 3 skill system is not really that innovative its allot like guildwars 1.

    Id like to see a skill system which is somwhere between what d3 offers and what D2 had. Finding skills as loot would be great too.

    I hear you, and understand. However, I disagree. Only because, for instance, right now on my Wizard I run 3 very different builds.....an all-out Uber CM wizard build, an all-out farm Archon build, and a CM build using living lightning for farming MP5-8. If I had to invest in certain runes, and those skills were much better than others, I would be gimping myself when using my other builds.

    Also, within each of these 3 builds I have several variations, as a simple example, my Archon build for MP1 is different than my Archon build for MP3/4. Now, of course if I had certain CM builds specialized, the other skills would still be usable, but they would be weaker. I just don't like that design anymore, many years ago it was fun to me, but it is just an outdated design. You can use the argument that a lot of games still do this, but honestly I think it's time they let go of the past also, and allow the type of freedom WOW and D3 now offer.

    For me, it's like this......I don't have a lot of time to play the game. I am OK with not having the best gear, or seeing Ubers on MP10. I understand that because I dont invest the same time and money into it, so I may not have a 400k dps character ever. But, to not let me use all the skills and runes at their full capacity because I dont invest 1000+ hrs into the game to me is an archaic and unnecessary punishment.

    I'm not saying I should get everything for nothing, but I have about 600 hours played on my Wizard, and 60+ on each of the other 4 60s. I put in my time to level each one, my wiz has about 180k unbuffed, my alts all have about 60-80k. I think thats fair. locking me out of certain spells after all theat time is not fair, IMO.

    The only way I would not mind specializing runes is if D3 completely changed their design to where leveling and gearing a 60 to 200k+ dps didnt take 700+hours, and they encouraged having multiple characters of the same class.

    Right now, the design strongly discourage having more than 1 main, and more than 1 of each class, so it's only reasonable each of those classes have access to all of their classes skills.
  • #28
    I don't think the addition of new runes is really going to fix the build diversity so much. If we think of anything that is remotely better than what we currently use, it will just become the trend and follow suite with everyone playing that particular class build.

    What we need is new skills with runes to go along with them. In my personal opinion, this sort of skill system was designed to have lots of choices, and when I say lots of choices, I mean to say lots of "viable" choices.

    When the level cap is increased, there should be new skills that can be unlocked, along with new runes. These skills should be very good and at the very least, compliment fun and serious play styles, while still being viable to use in high monster powers in Inferno. As a side note, I think after leveling past 60 with the increased level cap, we should be given the option to allocate our own stats and perhaps even develop a sort of personalized skill tree with the new skills, a style similar to D2. "Hey, you're level 60 now. Time to stop holding your hand. Take these points and put them somewhere."
    Jellyfish are the one and only true Wizards
  • #29
    I like the above idea, it could be a good merge between casual and hardcore world.
  • #30
    Hi all! I´m glad that some of you are liking these suggestions!

    @shadowbane Yes! This would be exactly like wave of force. But before I jump into it, lets talk about the concept of the Wizard.

    When designing the concept of the Wizard, Blizz wanted something more than the Sorc of D2 (hence the change of name). In D2 the Sorc was the master of the elements, but in D3 the idea is that the Wizard can manipulate the very fabric of reality.

    I believe that from al the classes, the Wiz is the one that would benefit the most from a skill tree system, since all of its “spells” are really a manipulation of one of the building blocks of the universe.
    Much like the fire, cold and lightning skill trees, I would approach the redesign of the Wiz having these “categories” in mind.

    To me the trees would be:
    • Space warping
    • Time Manipulation
    • Electromagnetic Mastery (fire, cold and lightning are electromagnetic effects)
    • Arcane Knowledge

    So when you design skills (or rune variations) having these concepts in mind you don’t just have “wave of force” or “ray of frost” spells, you get much more generic concepts like “space warping” out of which you can have many possible runes, or manifestations of that basic concept.

    Example:

    Space Warping (taking the place of wave of force)

    Basic un-runed attack could be a Jedi like force push that damages and knocks back enemies in a line or cone from the caster.
    • First rune could allow the Wiz to create a “gravity pull” centered on mouse location (kind of like a castable cyclone strike) damaging and grouping enemies on a place and hindering their movement for x seconds (imagine them having to fight the gravitational pull)
    • Second rune could be like a small black hole that sucks enemies in for a short period of time, damaging them and removing them from the battlefield for x seconds (think of the vortex ability from the protoss mothership in sc2)
    • Third rune could be a sudden space expansion (aka explosion) castable at the feet of a group of enemies, damaging them upon cast and sending them flying in the air, damaging them again when they hit the ground. (flight distance would be based on enemy size and weight, hence this would be more effective against smaller foes)
    • Fourth rune could be the wave of force as we know it.
    • Fifth rune could be anything space related, like for example… Teleport! This is not a real suggestion, just wanted to point out that when you give skills a context, or some sort of logic, you are not limiting your creative possibilities, much on the contrary, you inspire yourself on the way things work in real life. After all… If you wanna go wacky wild on the “magical” side of things, you can always play the arcane card and just do whatever you want.
  • #31
    Just like the Riftwalker ultimate ability in the game Heroes of Newerth, it could be a rune that damage and stuns in area after a x seconds cast time. Obviously, the cast time will be compensated with a greater damage and stun duration. This skill would also synergize with other players in, for example, PvP.
  • #32
    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Sagathiest

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Zera

    just scratch the game and start over or add another skill system more like the original d2 than then further modified the spells

    I have no issues with the skill system, and definately dont think D2s was better.

    The best way to describe it is, in order for you to know what spells you like you need to be able to try them. So any systemt that forces you to choose a spell, be locked into it, before ever even using it is not fun to me.....at all. Even if you can reset them, it's an annoyance to try something, see it fails, then jump through hoops to try something else. D2 was a great system for it's time. Games have evolved since then, and that type of system is obsolete now.


    I like to experiment too, but once i have picked a skill that i like i want to be able to feel like i can invest in it and improve it to make it better. In diablo 3 i cant.

    The Diablo 3 skill system is not really that innovative its allot like guildwars 1.

    Id like to see a skill system which is somwhere between what d3 offers and what D2 had. Finding skills as loot would be great too.

    I hear you, and understand. However, I disagree. Only because, for instance, right now on my Wizard I run 3 very different builds.....an all-out Uber CM wizard build, an all-out farm Archon build, and a CM build using living lightning for farming MP5-8. If I had to invest in certain runes, and those skills were much better than others, I would be gimping myself when using my other builds.

    Also, within each of these 3 builds I have several variations, as a simple example, my Archon build for MP1 is different than my Archon build for MP3/4. Now, of course if I had certain CM builds specialized, the other skills would still be usable, but they would be weaker. I just don't like that design anymore, many years ago it was fun to me, but it is just an outdated design. You can use the argument that a lot of games still do this, but honestly I think it's time they let go of the past also, and allow the type of freedom WOW and D3 now offer.

    For me, it's like this......I don't have a lot of time to play the game. I am OK with not having the best gear, or seeing Ubers on MP10. I understand that because I dont invest the same time and money into it, so I may not have a 400k dps character ever. But, to not let me use all the skills and runes at their full capacity because I dont invest 1000+ hrs into the game to me is an archaic and unnecessary punishment.

    I'm not saying I should get everything for nothing, but I have about 600 hours played on my Wizard, and 60+ on each of the other 4 60s. I put in my time to level each one, my wiz has about 180k unbuffed, my alts all have about 60-80k. I think thats fair. locking me out of certain spells after all theat time is not fair, IMO.

    The only way I would not mind specializing runes is if D3 completely changed their design to where leveling and gearing a 60 to 200k+ dps didnt take 700+hours, and they encouraged having multiple characters of the same class.

    Right now, the design strongly discourage having more than 1 main, and more than 1 of each class, so it's only reasonable each of those classes have access to all of their classes skills.

    Why not a freely re-distributable point system? the other thing with some kind of point system is that it moves away from complete gear dependence which is another thing that makes skills very uninteresting atm. There's no way to improve them beyond getting better gear right now.
  • #33
    Quote from Sagathiest

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Sagathiest

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Zera

    just scratch the game and start over or add another skill system more like the original d2 than then further modified the spells

    I have no issues with the skill system, and definately dont think D2s was better.

    The best way to describe it is, in order for you to know what spells you like you need to be able to try them. So any systemt that forces you to choose a spell, be locked into it, before ever even using it is not fun to me.....at all. Even if you can reset them, it's an annoyance to try something, see it fails, then jump through hoops to try something else. D2 was a great system for it's time. Games have evolved since then, and that type of system is obsolete now.


    I like to experiment too, but once i have picked a skill that i like i want to be able to feel like i can invest in it and improve it to make it better. In diablo 3 i cant.

    The Diablo 3 skill system is not really that innovative its allot like guildwars 1.

    Id like to see a skill system which is somwhere between what d3 offers and what D2 had. Finding skills as loot would be great too.

    I hear you, and understand. However, I disagree. Only because, for instance, right now on my Wizard I run 3 very different builds.....an all-out Uber CM wizard build, an all-out farm Archon build, and a CM build using living lightning for farming MP5-8. If I had to invest in certain runes, and those skills were much better than others, I would be gimping myself when using my other builds.

    Also, within each of these 3 builds I have several variations, as a simple example, my Archon build for MP1 is different than my Archon build for MP3/4. Now, of course if I had certain CM builds specialized, the other skills would still be usable, but they would be weaker. I just don't like that design anymore, many years ago it was fun to me, but it is just an outdated design. You can use the argument that a lot of games still do this, but honestly I think it's time they let go of the past also, and allow the type of freedom WOW and D3 now offer.

    For me, it's like this......I don't have a lot of time to play the game. I am OK with not having the best gear, or seeing Ubers on MP10. I understand that because I dont invest the same time and money into it, so I may not have a 400k dps character ever. But, to not let me use all the skills and runes at their full capacity because I dont invest 1000+ hrs into the game to me is an archaic and unnecessary punishment.

    I'm not saying I should get everything for nothing, but I have about 600 hours played on my Wizard, and 60+ on each of the other 4 60s. I put in my time to level each one, my wiz has about 180k unbuffed, my alts all have about 60-80k. I think thats fair. locking me out of certain spells after all theat time is not fair, IMO.

    The only way I would not mind specializing runes is if D3 completely changed their design to where leveling and gearing a 60 to 200k+ dps didnt take 700+hours, and they encouraged having multiple characters of the same class.

    Right now, the design strongly discourage having more than 1 main, and more than 1 of each class, so it's only reasonable each of those classes have access to all of their classes skills.

    Why not a freely re-distributable point system? the other thing with some kind of point system is that it moves away from complete gear dependence which is another thing that makes skills very uninteresting atm. There's no way to improve them beyond getting better gear right now.

    Only issue I would have with that is it would make the item-hunt less meaningful. When choosing between 300 Vit, or 300 Strength, it wouldnt matter. You pick the item for the other stats, and adjust your stats to compensate. I guess that wouldnt be that big of a deal, but with a game so heavily dependant on gear for stats, I don't see much reason to adjusting your own.
  • #34
    Mantra of Retribution should be changed in such away that the damage that was mitigated by armor and resists is the one that is reflected rather than the damage actually taken.

    Right now Mantra of Retribution is pointless. I think as the way it is right now, PvP will be the only place to use it.
    sto lavorando
  • #35
    Guys I´ve been thinking on how to make this thread more interesting and engaging, and… Well, just like loot, nobody wants to put effort and time into things that have no impact.

    I realize that if this is going to have any sort of relevance on the game design, then we must get the rest of the community on this.

    My plan is to make a "Improving Rune System" thread on each of the different class forums, so that people can talk about the skills that really matter to them. This would all be linked to this same thread on the general discussion, but this thread would act more like a hub, whereas the real nitty gritty details would be covered in the class specific threads.

    So… Here we go! Edited the first post, links to the class specific threads are there!
  • #36
    Quote from Cacerola

    Guys I´ve been thinking on how to make this thread more interesting and engaging, and… Well, just like loot, nobody wants to put effort and time into things that have no impact.

    I realize that if this is going to have any sort of relevance on the game design, then we must get the rest of the community on this.

    My plan is to make a "Improving Rune System" thread on each of the different class forums, so that people can talk about the skills that really matter to them. This would all be linked to this same thread on the general discussion, but this thread would act more like a hub, whereas the real nitty gritty details would be covered in the class specific threads.

    So… Here we go! Edited the first post, links to the class specific threads are there!

    Admire the effort and like the suggestions. I would like to help, read my PM I sent to you. Another way to get ideas and info back to Blizz.
  • #37
    Quote from Cacerola

    Guys I´ve been thinking on how to make this thread more interesting and engaging, and… Well, just like loot, nobody wants to put effort and time into things that have no impact.

    I realize that if this is going to have any sort of relevance on the game design, then we must get the rest of the community on this.

    My plan is to make a "Improving Rune System" thread on each of the different class forums, so that people can talk about the skills that really matter to them. This would all be linked to this same thread on the general discussion, but this thread would act more like a hub, whereas the real nitty gritty details would be covered in the class specific threads.

    So… Here we go! Edited the first post, links to the class specific threads are there!

    Admirable dedication. I'll hop right on the to the monk section cuz it's my main.
    sto lavorando
  • #38
    Sorry for the silence right after making the threads! I am preparing a class overview going through every skill and rune on each class. Gonna take me some time to finish…

    Just a brief comment on the 1.0.7 changes to skills: NO! NO! (that’s a big no-no)

    Jokes aside, 1.0.7 feels like a stalling move. They are just buying time… And to be honest, I think it´s the best thing to do right now. The skill system is flawed and needs a deep redesign.
  • #39
    Quote from Cacerola

    Sorry for the silence right after making the threads! I am preparing a class overview going through every skill and rune on each class. Gonna take me some time to finish…

    Just a brief comment on the 1.0.7 changes to skills: NO! NO! (that’s a big no-no)

    Jokes aside, 1.0.7 feels like a stalling move. They are just buying time… And to be honest, I think it´s the best thing to do right now. The skill system is flawed and needs a deep redesign.

    Im sure that 98.99% of the people who play D3 agree with you on the revamp. THAT being said.. all of these suggestions are more or less empty wishes. To implement these types of changes is 100% unlikely in a patch and I'd say 65% unlikey in an expansion.

    A complete revamp would go against all of what they have stood for thus far and with the RMAH involved you're looking numerous situations which could cause blizzard a world of headaches legally.

    Reasons why we wont see a complete revamp.
    - What's a better way to make money then to control the supply AND demand. (directed at the poorly designed itemization)
    - Blizzard IS THE BANK in this Monopoly (if blizzard is happy with the money they make- No Competition =No Reason for Change)
    - Too many legal headaches (RMAH- No one wants to feel like they wasted their money hard earned or not)
    - Blizzards ego can only nurse small doses of criticism at a time. i.e. admitting they messed up- wont happen until their bottom line drops significantly. And who knows the bottom line for them ? I'd take 100% profit all day , even if its $10 bucks a day let alone the millions it could be...

    In short. The game is doing exactly what blizzard intended it to do- By implementing small changes "fixes" they can pro long their audiences' interest until Soon isnt Soon Enough !
    -
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