Hmm... I found normal incredibly easy sorry to say, without using the AH. I died once on my solo run and that was in A3 and not on a boss.
Normal is like a tutorial. You can enter with a character you know nothing about, skills you know nothing about, and by the time you're on NM you should have a grasp of things and be ready for a challenge.
I just don't see how people can struggle on normal?
I would assume most people that struggle on norm are Diablo franchise rookies. Most of us that are familiar with the franchises template shouldn't have many issues through the first phase.
If you like it, you like it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. If I didn't like the game, I wouldn't be here right now. Maybe it's just me, but I got better things to do than to frequent a fansite of a game I am displeased with.
I'm glad you said this.
I often wonder why people would frequent a forum to say how unhappy they areto people they don't know, and most likely dislike. It makes absolutely no sense to me, whatsoever. Wouldn't you rather occupy your preciously limited time with something that brings you enjoyment, or are you so broken in life that you need to go bring people down who find pleasure out of something as simple as a product of entertainment...
Hmm... I found normal incredibly easy sorry to say, without using the AH. I died once on my solo run and that was in A3 and not on a boss.
Normal is like a tutorial. You can enter with a character you know nothing about, skills you know nothing about, and by the time you're on NM you should have a grasp of things and be ready for a challenge.
I just don't see how people can struggle on normal?
I would assume most people that struggle on norm are Diablo franchise rookies. Most of us that are familiar with the franchises template shouldn't have many issues through the first phase.
For example; I wish gem names were a different colour; quite easy to miss them being white, as they blend in. This is a minor thing of course.
Remember D2 and high runes? I often wonder....how many zod runes were left on the ground throughout the history of the game? I have actually walked up on loot that dropped from myself or others and found Lo, Ist and Mal runes just laying there among the garbage.
I always wondered why HR's weren't brightly colored, considering their worth.
Right now things are quite terrible over at the official forums. I really make an effert to avoid going there. People moan about the strangest things, rather than finding enjoyment out of what they have right now.
Think of it this way. If your memory is still functional, think back to D2, how it was, how insanely bland it actually was. Now remember how good it became when LOD wasrelease, how insanely fun it actually became. I hope the rumors of two D3 expansions are true, because in that case, the game will just get better, and the framework is already so very solid.
I'm level 56 and i haven't gotten even 1 legendary so far. (I have enough mf)
I think people are making a mistake with MF so early on. Concentrate on survivabilty and take what falls. Some of my greatest finds in my D2 career....I didn't even have MF...ZERO!
People need to understand the math here. In D2, 300% MF only increased your elite drops by a VERY marginal amount. I can't remember the numbers exactly, but it was something like...between 300% MF and 1000% MF, your chance of an elite drop went up by only 1 in 500.
People....take the MF off until you can cruise Hell mode with impunity. Than start switching in some MF gear.
As I said on the last page....take the MF off. It's not helping as much as people think. Get to the highest iLvL area you can survive easily in, kill kill kill and take what drops. Stacking MF isn't going to help you if you can't farm high iLvL areas with ease.
If you like it, you like it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. If I didn't like the game, I wouldn't be here right now. Maybe it's just me, but I got better things to do than to frequent a fansite of a game I am displeased with.
I'm glad you said this.
I often wonder why people would frequent a forum to say how unhappy they areto people they don't know, and most likely dislike. It makes absolutely no sense to me, whatsoever. Wouldn't you rather occupy your preciously limited time with something that brings you enjoyment, or are you so broken in life that you need to go bring people down who find pleasure out of something as simple as a product of entertainment...
Well, this is Diiablo Fans, not Diablo 3 Fans.
Thats a good point...but...true fans of the franchise should remember that D2 didn't have runewords or many other staples of the game as we now know it when it was released. Perspective is key.
Look...I loved D2. Great memories there and I loved my time playing it. But it seems to me many folks seem to have a warped memory when comparing D3 to it's predecessor, D2.
The servers were janky at best. Ongoing lag issues were a common problem throughout the entire time I played it, as well as rubber-banding.
Most notably, dupes and hacks killed the integrity of the game. How many of us were victimized by trading something of great value for an item, only to have it poof?
My last stint with D2 was circa 2010....I decided to play for 'ol times sake as I was recovering from surgery. It was near unplayable due to spam-bots.
People have this misguided romanticism about D2 and they're unfairly holding it up on a pedestal in compare to D3. They need to stop and really remember the problems we had.
No offline mode? GREAT!
Denying hackers the full client protects the program from manipulation. They learn to manipulate via offline full-client and take that knowledge directly to the online client, raping it of it's integrity. I for one am glad as hell that dupes and hacks will be held in check, even if it means I cannot play offline.
Wow, didn't know people was getting troubles finding legendaries, should play less and browse more.
I got legendary pants in act 1 normal, very few rares (bosses aside) and plenty of blue.
About complainers: that's the 2nd most important reason I'm avoiding forums in these early days, lot's of people which don't know the game and don't care to read and don't use the "search" feature.
Game is not perfect, still its fun to play and I'm just in Normal.
My point still stands.
Why would you occupy your time with something you dislike when you could busy yourself with something you like. If you love D2, but despise D3, then wouldn't it make sense to stick to D2 forums and occupy your time with that game, or search for something a lot like it that you'll like (Torchlight), rather than sticking with D3 forums to constantly remind everyone how miserable you are, while cursing them when they ask you to stop?
If the game is so perfect and if there's nothing to complain about then why are you all here and not playing the game?
Oh... right... servers are offline...
Technically, that's Blizzard's fault, not the game itself. It's a great game, even if their servers are kak.
And no one called the game perfect. Great, yes. Fun, absolutely, but perfect, far from it. If it was perfect then we'd definitely need no expansions. If anyone can open their eyes, they'd see D3 is groundwork for something much greater. Like I said earlier, D2 was bland and crap, I mean ffs, you didn't even have any reason to play nightmare. LoD was where the real magic started, and I'm certain D3 will only improve from here.
The bottom line is this: we are now limited to playing when Blizzard wants us to, and not when we want to. And why? Because some people got into some shady deals and got scammed, and because Blizzard couldn't police their servers well enough to detect bots? Screw that.
I think the bottom line is that this thing just got started, not even a week old, and people haven't got the foresight to see the potential for this launch to far exceed D2. The server issues will stabilize. If they do not, Bliz loses millions of $$$.
Go ahead and stick your head in the sand and romanticize about an antiquated D2 that DID have, and still does have, huge issues that drove people to quit. I quit because I got sick of farming the same 4 areas with the same cookie cutter builds.
D3 should pick up where LoD left off
I disagree. I think the fun of LoD with better graphics and new maps would've been ill received as a vomited, imagination deficient sequel. People would've been picking it apart for being a rehash. D3 is a new beginning.
yeah but without complainers changes would never happen, good or bad. They change the state of the game and keep it interesting for the rest of us. Even if it's irritating at first, least it keeps shit rotating
My point still stands.
Why would you occupy your time with something you dislike when you could busy yourself with something you like.
Exactly my thought - people, attacking those that have issues with D3 could perfectly follow your advice.
I like constructive criticism, you know, the sort people place thought behind. So far I've seen a predominance of idiotic statements being thrown around. "The story doesn't make sense, I don't understand it, so it sucks" coming from people who didn't listen to dialogues or payed attention. "Hell is too hard, make it easier for me so I can progress" when Blizzard clearly stated that Normal is the tutorial, nightmare is where the real game begins, hell is where you'll die a lot and need good gear and strategies, and inferno is supposed to be almost impossible."Itemization sucks, the items have too many randomization added to them" ... this argument leave me speechless ... I will agree though that legendary gear need a buff.
If people place some thought and reasoning behind what they actually want from the game, then Blizzard would maybe help improve the game, rather than sifting through piles of trash statements and overlooking the valid points.
The bottom line is this: we are now limited to playing when Blizzard wants us to, and not when we want to. And why? Because some people got into some shady deals and got scammed, and because Blizzard couldn't police their servers well enough to detect bots? Screw that.
Doesn't this just reflect life? A few selfish pricks always need to go out of their way to ruin everything for the rest.
Yes, you can say it didn't affect you. Likewise, I can say I don't PvP in Diablo, so I feel they shouldn't add it and rather just focus on PvE and make the game better for me. Now that would be selfish, wouldn't it?
Some of the issues with D2 online was really far reaching. My short online D2 career never took off because of all this crap. I really wanted to participate, but eventually I chose against it, for the reasons people state it sucked where just that overwhelming. You can say it however you like, but Diablo is a co-op experience, first and foremost, and in this day and age internet play is growing to overtake LAN in a major way. Online features in gaming has blossomed, and this was the obvious direction to take D3 in.
I understand a lot of your points, really I do. To an extent I agree that D3 should be LoD+, a sequel should by all right be superior to its predecessor and its expanded content. However, D2 didn't have skill rune effects, nor did it have a large crafting component through the use of salvaged materials, or even randomly generated events, even it's economy sucked and needed to be restructured from the ground up.
What I'm trying to say is, D3 isn't merely building on D2 LOD, it's also taking many new features and trying to incorporate it into the established format of the Diablo games. They couldn't exactly go balls to the walls and make an intricate crafting system, or give each class insane skill layouts with hundreds of skills through numerous customizable rune effects. This isn't D2.5 or LOD+ where old systems were expanded. This is D3, an entirely new game with entirely new systems. Just wait and see what they do with the expansions. I'm sure you'll be impressed to find just how much they can improve and expand on the new features they've created.
You are lucky you did not loved d2, nor you can see the crap d3 is stuffed with. Just enjoy the game and don't make the situation more sad that it is PLEASE.
Actually, I loved D2. I loved it so much in fact that I saw the glaring flaws that hampered the game. Sorry you can't see that crap that weighed that game down, and the fact that your jaded nostalgia is holding you back from experiencing a good game that can stand on its own.
D3 isn't trying to stand strong on D2's back. In fact D2 was a huge step away from D1, almost vastly so. Its time people see D3 is a big step away from D2, very much like D2's departure from D1.
What I retorted was that the dev team should've taken the lessons learned in LoD (and not necessarily the exact same features, like you said) and applied them to D3. Instead, they just tried to solve some of the problems of vanilla D2, completely forgetting that LoD had already solved a ton of them.
First off I want to say that it's refreshing to hear complaints from someone that is obviously mature and intelligent. A nice switch up from the cry-baby kids spouting off. I can tell you're a true fan of the franchise and your concern is pure.
I understand the idea you wish to convey. That releasing a game so 'incomplete' seems counter-intuitive given that this is what they did with D2.
I'm thinking that perhaps they left some issues on the table, like item depth, drops, party size, social communication etc so that they could address more serious issues. I think the most potent 'lesson learned' was how the integrity of their game goes to jack shit when they allow their program to be compromised.
You spoke of 'Eastern Sun'. Thats a mod, correct? That means because some independent programmer had access to the full D2 client, they were allowed to manipulate it. Just as others had done, learning to dupe, create silly things like the flash hack (anyone remember that annoying shit?) etc...
The lesson learned was; If Bliz intends to create a fun game that will last as long as D2, but without the mess of dupes and hacks, than they must deny the full client to the general public i.e. no offline option for the consumer.
The way I see it, that's what Bliz said to us, the consumers; We have this great game. We intend to provide it online and maintain it for many many years, but in order to do so without the hacks and dupes, we cannot compromise the integrity of the program by storing the program on millions of private hard drives.
The server issues will straighten out. If an upstart company like ArenaNet could manage it for 7 years, I'm sure a conglomerate powerhouse like Bliz can figure it out. I'm just asking (as well as Bliz) that we all try to be patient. If server issues continue to be a problem after many weeks, we as a community of fans are going to have to voice our concerns. But it's too early right now. Give'em a break I say.
My point still stands.
Why would you occupy your time with something you dislike when you could busy yourself with something you like.
Exactly my thought - people, attacking those that have issues with D3 could perfectly follow your advice.
I like constructive criticism, you know, the sort people place thought behind. So far I've seen a predominance of idiotic statements being thrown around. "The story doesn't make sense, I don't understand it, so it sucks" coming from people who didn't listen to dialogues or payed attention. "Hell is too hard, make it easier for me so I can progress" when Blizzard clearly stated that Normal is the tutorial, nightmare is where the real game begins, hell is where you'll die a lot and need good gear and strategies, and inferno is supposed to be almost impossible."Itemization sucks, the items have too many randomization added to them" ... this argument leave me speechless ... I will agree though that legendary gear need a buff.
If people place some thought and reasoning behind what they actually want from the game, then Blizzard would maybe help improve the game, rather than sifting through piles of trash statements and overlooking the valid points.
The bottom line is this: we are now limited to playing when Blizzard wants us to, and not when we want to. And why? Because some people got into some shady deals and got scammed, and because Blizzard couldn't police their servers well enough to detect bots? Screw that.
Doesn't this just reflect life? A few selfish pricks always need to go out of their way to ruin everything for the rest.
Yes, you can say it didn't affect you. Likewise, I can say I don't PvP in Diablo, so I feel they shouldn't add it and rather just focus on PvE and make the game better for me. Now that would be selfish, wouldn't it?
Some of the issues with D2 online was really far reaching. My short online D2 career never took off because of all this crap. I really wanted to participate, but eventually I chose against it, for the reasons people state it sucked where just that overwhelming. You can say it however you like, but Diablo is a co-op experience, first and foremost, and in this day and age internet play is growing to overtake LAN in a major way. Online features in gaming has blossomed, and this was the obvious direction to take D3 in.
I understand a lot of your points, really I do. To an extent I agree that D3 should be LoD+, a sequel should by all right be superior to its predecessor and its expanded content. However, D2 didn't have skill rune effects, nor did it have a large crafting component through the use of salvaged materials, or even randomly generated events, even it's economy sucked and needed to be restructured from the ground up.
What I'm trying to say is, D3 isn't merely building on D2 LOD, it's also taking many new features and trying to incorporate it into the established format of the Diablo games. They couldn't exactly go balls to the walls and make an intricate crafting system, or give each class insane skill layouts with hundreds of skills through numerous customizable rune effects. This isn't D2.5 or LOD+ where old systems were expanded. This is D3, an entirely new game with entirely new systems. Just wait and see what they do with the expansions. I'm sure you'll be impressed to find just how much they can improve and expand on the new features they've created.
You are lucky you did not loved d2, nor you can see the crap d3 is stuffed with. Just enjoy the game and don't make the situation more sad that it is PLEASE.
Actually, I loved D2. I loved it so much in fact that I saw the glaring flaws that hampered the game. Sorry you can't see that crap that weighed that game down, and the fact that your jaded nostalgia is holding you back from experiencing a good game that can stand on its own.
D3 isn't trying to stand strong on D2's back. In fact D2 was a huge step away from D1, almost vastly so. Its time people see D3 is a big step away from D2, very much like D2's departure from D1.
Beautiful sir.
I want to add that I believe in short order, Bliz will release patches/expansions that tie LoD and D3 together in a stunning package. I can see it coming......
It seems apparent that there was so much more that they wanted to include but could not due to time constraints. Bliz had a finite amount of time...they can buy all the resources they need, but they cannot buy time.
Just wait, people. Soon Bliz will marry LoD and D3 together with patches and we're gonna love them. I have faith that any company that could create such frickin awesomeness can manage to accomplish this.
I honestly feel Blizzard has held the hands of a lot of people when it comes to gaming and that's obvious from the constant spiral in World of Warcraft. Vanilla was challenging and now those who enter that universe are spoon fed to the extent of being elite in a month. I just read a post of someone complaining about potions being on cooldown. They never had health globes on Diablo. I am just astonished by the gravity of so many people upset at a game that came out a week ago. Maybe I am just naive.
Normal is like a tutorial. You can enter with a character you know nothing about, skills you know nothing about, and by the time you're on NM you should have a grasp of things and be ready for a challenge.
I would assume most people that struggle on norm are Diablo franchise rookies. Most of us that are familiar with the franchises template shouldn't have many issues through the first phase.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I often wonder why people would frequent a forum to say how unhappy they areto people they don't know, and most likely dislike. It makes absolutely no sense to me, whatsoever. Wouldn't you rather occupy your preciously limited time with something that brings you enjoyment, or are you so broken in life that you need to go bring people down who find pleasure out of something as simple as a product of entertainment...
Remember D2 and high runes? I often wonder....how many zod runes were left on the ground throughout the history of the game? I have actually walked up on loot that dropped from myself or others and found Lo, Ist and Mal runes just laying there among the garbage.
I always wondered why HR's weren't brightly colored, considering their worth.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Think of it this way. If your memory is still functional, think back to D2, how it was, how insanely bland it actually was. Now remember how good it became when LOD wasrelease, how insanely fun it actually became. I hope the rumors of two D3 expansions are true, because in that case, the game will just get better, and the framework is already so very solid.
I think people are making a mistake with MF so early on. Concentrate on survivabilty and take what falls. Some of my greatest finds in my D2 career....I didn't even have MF...ZERO!
People need to understand the math here. In D2, 300% MF only increased your elite drops by a VERY marginal amount. I can't remember the numbers exactly, but it was something like...between 300% MF and 1000% MF, your chance of an elite drop went up by only 1 in 500.
People....take the MF off until you can cruise Hell mode with impunity. Than start switching in some MF gear.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Thats a good point...but...true fans of the franchise should remember that D2 didn't have runewords or many other staples of the game as we now know it when it was released. Perspective is key.
Look...I loved D2. Great memories there and I loved my time playing it. But it seems to me many folks seem to have a warped memory when comparing D3 to it's predecessor, D2.
The servers were janky at best. Ongoing lag issues were a common problem throughout the entire time I played it, as well as rubber-banding.
Most notably, dupes and hacks killed the integrity of the game. How many of us were victimized by trading something of great value for an item, only to have it poof?
My last stint with D2 was circa 2010....I decided to play for 'ol times sake as I was recovering from surgery. It was near unplayable due to spam-bots.
People have this misguided romanticism about D2 and they're unfairly holding it up on a pedestal in compare to D3. They need to stop and really remember the problems we had.
No offline mode? GREAT!
Denying hackers the full client protects the program from manipulation. They learn to manipulate via offline full-client and take that knowledge directly to the online client, raping it of it's integrity. I for one am glad as hell that dupes and hacks will be held in check, even if it means I cannot play offline.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I got legendary pants in act 1 normal, very few rares (bosses aside) and plenty of blue.
About complainers: that's the 2nd most important reason I'm avoiding forums in these early days, lot's of people which don't know the game and don't care to read and don't use the "search" feature.
Game is not perfect, still its fun to play and I'm just in Normal.
Oh... right... servers are offline...
Why would you occupy your time with something you dislike when you could busy yourself with something you like. If you love D2, but despise D3, then wouldn't it make sense to stick to D2 forums and occupy your time with that game, or search for something a lot like it that you'll like (Torchlight), rather than sticking with D3 forums to constantly remind everyone how miserable you are, while cursing them when they ask you to stop?
Technically, that's Blizzard's fault, not the game itself. It's a great game, even if their servers are kak.
And no one called the game perfect. Great, yes. Fun, absolutely, but perfect, far from it. If it was perfect then we'd definitely need no expansions. If anyone can open their eyes, they'd see D3 is groundwork for something much greater. Like I said earlier, D2 was bland and crap, I mean ffs, you didn't even have any reason to play nightmare. LoD was where the real magic started, and I'm certain D3 will only improve from here.
I think the bottom line is that this thing just got started, not even a week old, and people haven't got the foresight to see the potential for this launch to far exceed D2. The server issues will stabilize. If they do not, Bliz loses millions of $$$.
Go ahead and stick your head in the sand and romanticize about an antiquated D2 that DID have, and still does have, huge issues that drove people to quit. I quit because I got sick of farming the same 4 areas with the same cookie cutter builds.
I disagree. I think the fun of LoD with better graphics and new maps would've been ill received as a vomited, imagination deficient sequel. People would've been picking it apart for being a rehash. D3 is a new beginning.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
12 hours of overtime work, and foruming.
If people place some thought and reasoning behind what they actually want from the game, then Blizzard would maybe help improve the game, rather than sifting through piles of trash statements and overlooking the valid points.
Doesn't this just reflect life? A few selfish pricks always need to go out of their way to ruin everything for the rest.
Yes, you can say it didn't affect you. Likewise, I can say I don't PvP in Diablo, so I feel they shouldn't add it and rather just focus on PvE and make the game better for me. Now that would be selfish, wouldn't it?
Some of the issues with D2 online was really far reaching. My short online D2 career never took off because of all this crap. I really wanted to participate, but eventually I chose against it, for the reasons people state it sucked where just that overwhelming. You can say it however you like, but Diablo is a co-op experience, first and foremost, and in this day and age internet play is growing to overtake LAN in a major way. Online features in gaming has blossomed, and this was the obvious direction to take D3 in.
I understand a lot of your points, really I do. To an extent I agree that D3 should be LoD+, a sequel should by all right be superior to its predecessor and its expanded content. However, D2 didn't have skill rune effects, nor did it have a large crafting component through the use of salvaged materials, or even randomly generated events, even it's economy sucked and needed to be restructured from the ground up.
What I'm trying to say is, D3 isn't merely building on D2 LOD, it's also taking many new features and trying to incorporate it into the established format of the Diablo games. They couldn't exactly go balls to the walls and make an intricate crafting system, or give each class insane skill layouts with hundreds of skills through numerous customizable rune effects. This isn't D2.5 or LOD+ where old systems were expanded. This is D3, an entirely new game with entirely new systems. Just wait and see what they do with the expansions. I'm sure you'll be impressed to find just how much they can improve and expand on the new features they've created.
Actually, I loved D2. I loved it so much in fact that I saw the glaring flaws that hampered the game. Sorry you can't see that crap that weighed that game down, and the fact that your jaded nostalgia is holding you back from experiencing a good game that can stand on its own.
D3 isn't trying to stand strong on D2's back. In fact D2 was a huge step away from D1, almost vastly so. Its time people see D3 is a big step away from D2, very much like D2's departure from D1.
First off I want to say that it's refreshing to hear complaints from someone that is obviously mature and intelligent. A nice switch up from the cry-baby kids spouting off. I can tell you're a true fan of the franchise and your concern is pure.
I understand the idea you wish to convey. That releasing a game so 'incomplete' seems counter-intuitive given that this is what they did with D2.
I'm thinking that perhaps they left some issues on the table, like item depth, drops, party size, social communication etc so that they could address more serious issues. I think the most potent 'lesson learned' was how the integrity of their game goes to jack shit when they allow their program to be compromised.
You spoke of 'Eastern Sun'. Thats a mod, correct? That means because some independent programmer had access to the full D2 client, they were allowed to manipulate it. Just as others had done, learning to dupe, create silly things like the flash hack (anyone remember that annoying shit?) etc...
The lesson learned was; If Bliz intends to create a fun game that will last as long as D2, but without the mess of dupes and hacks, than they must deny the full client to the general public i.e. no offline option for the consumer.
The way I see it, that's what Bliz said to us, the consumers; We have this great game. We intend to provide it online and maintain it for many many years, but in order to do so without the hacks and dupes, we cannot compromise the integrity of the program by storing the program on millions of private hard drives.
The server issues will straighten out. If an upstart company like ArenaNet could manage it for 7 years, I'm sure a conglomerate powerhouse like Bliz can figure it out. I'm just asking (as well as Bliz) that we all try to be patient. If server issues continue to be a problem after many weeks, we as a community of fans are going to have to voice our concerns. But it's too early right now. Give'em a break I say.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Beautiful sir.
I want to add that I believe in short order, Bliz will release patches/expansions that tie LoD and D3 together in a stunning package. I can see it coming......
It seems apparent that there was so much more that they wanted to include but could not due to time constraints. Bliz had a finite amount of time...they can buy all the resources they need, but they cannot buy time.
Just wait, people. Soon Bliz will marry LoD and D3 together with patches and we're gonna love them. I have faith that any company that could create such frickin awesomeness can manage to accomplish this.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
However, I expect that Blizz would add more content to the game soon, and in a few monts, maybe something like Ubber quest and stuff like that.
What Im really hating right now, is the time Blizzard is taking to fix the latency issues...
Touche sir, touche.
Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Google+ to keep up with our latest content!