I (ab-)used the recent raised activity level of the community to bring attention to a topic that's worrying me lately - which is the glaring disparity in paragon levels, which turns it into a required grind rather than the optional addition to end-game that it was meant to be in the beginning.
The PTR is online, everything is going to be tested, and everything looks great. Even the biggest problem for most players in 2.2.1 (trials) has been addressed (i.e., removed). Thank you for that, it's looking great!
Along those lines, another important issue has been addressed recently - the injustice in gaining paragon levels (i.e., "leechers" in XP runs), as John Yang tweeted today. That's also a very welcome change. Nevertheless, there's an underlying issue that could easily evolve into the next big frustration thing for many players, given that paragon leveling becomes even easier in 2.3. And that is the fact that:
Leveling paragon is mandatory, and is becoming more and more mandatory.
In the beginning of the system everyone started with not more than paragon 350ish, if I remember correctly. The subsequent steps were celebrated by the community: first 500, first 600, first 700, first 800, and so on. Those were milestones that were hard to achieve, it was more like a challenge and less like something that was achievable for the average Joe player - let alone something that actually had a benefit in relation to the effort required to get there. However, recently this has changed. More exactly, it changed with the XP bonus changes in 2.2 that ended in changing the XP gain by an order of magnitude (10b XP per hour was something impressive once, these days you need to be north of 100b XP per hour to achieve the same effect).
I cannot find the bluepost anymore, but I remember that after the inception of the paragon system you (Blizzard) constantly stated that paragon should be optional and not mandatory anymore. Well, that has changed.
Now that paragon 800 is not an elusive visionary goal anymore but something the top players achieve in far less than a week, the system turns from some optional endgame thing to strive for into a mandatory thing to complete. Optimizing gear and gem ranks is important, but paragon is as important to reach high rankings. To bring up a clearer example: from paragon 600 to 800 the effective benefit you get is 50 more points in the first tab - 150 points are more or less "meh". From paragon 800 to 1000, you gain 200 points in the first tab, which means 1000 main stat. The real paragon system starts after 1000 - and never stops. Some players will be paragon 2000 (!) in 2-3 weeks (Dani and Ryu on EU non-season), and some more will be after the season ends and non-season and season XP are being added (Vajet on EU season is also close to 1900 in combined paragon). 2000 paragon means those players will have 5000 (!) more main stat than a paragon 1000 player - which is someone who also does play quite a lot - but it's a gap that no rift RNG, no gem rank efforts, no gear differences can close.
Another concrete example: I'm paragon 950 as I write this and get 5 main stat more every 30-40 minutes if I run speed Greater Rifts. That's a guaranteed (!) upgrade that I don't get easily from gear anymore, especially not in this time frame. However, it's also a really boring upgrade. It doesn't give me an excitement as a new item does, even if that item is a very minor upgrade. The core of Diablo should - as it has always been - the item hunt. It should not be trials, it should not be RNG, and it should not be paragon.
I recently heard a lot of players - even famous streamers - saying the same thing, and those guys are playing basically 24/7. Yet, because they do not leech paragon 24/7 but enjoy the game in all its glory, they have the feeling that they cannot compete anymore.
Anyways, long explanation, but here are two short solutions:
1) Scale down the XP gained. Basically, if it was 1/10th of what it is now, players wouldn't reach paragon 1500 after 2 months into the season (which is the fact now!), but rather "only" paragon ~870 (50 trillion versus 5 trillion combined XP required). However, that might impact some player's experience negatively... as high-level players wouldn't gain any paragon levels anymore, and low-level players might never reach that nice paragon 800. Therefore, a potentially better solution:
2) Make the benefit of paragon levels after 800 less "overpowered". Every level above 800 should only give one main stat, for example; and it should probably be pre-assigned to the core main stat (so you don't have to re-assign all the leftover points once you switch to a different character). It would still give high-paragon players a huge advantage (those paragon 2000 players would still have 1000 main stat more than active, but not super crazy players); but it wouldn't be as much of a difference as it is now (which is more than having all items ancient vs. non-ancient).
TL;DR: Change paragon XP gain or benefits after 800 to make it non-mandatory and optional again. Thanks!
I can only agree. Ive not been playing Diablo 3 for a long while now, but i got paragon 200 the hard way before i stopped. And seeing this fills me with despair. Paragon leveling seriously needs to be reined in, its not what the game should be about. Its grinding for new and better items, not mooching xp.
Yeah, have to agree. The whole paragon system is kind of a train wreck aswell. Hopefully in the expansion it'll be completely overhauled, but until then it would be really nice to see some sort of temporary tweak to it.
Why not just stopping the leveling at paragon 800?
Well that defeats the purpose of the whole system, which was to give some progression after you reach max level, initially, and after paragon level 100, later.
When the overhauled paragon system was introduced, level 800 was supposed to be very time consuming to reach, but with the subsequent changes (XP, GR, etc.), it became quite trivial for people playing a lot.
In seasons, I don't think it's such a big issue, because any advantage is lost when season is reset, but maybe it could benefit a little from toning it down, so people optimizing their XP farming, don't get so much ahead.
However the problem is for non-season, as the gap is constantly increasing. This means that simply nerfing the benefits would make the top paragon levelers very unhappy.
1000% agree. Diablo at it's heart MUST be about the gear grind. Paragon should be like the tokens in WoW, a little something to assist you, should RNG not be your friend.
I don't know why, but I get the feeling when we get a new Expac (hopefully this year at Gamescom/Blizzcon) we might be seeing Paragon 3.0
As usual, you are correct Bagstone. I think that there are a few other options:
1. Remove main stat as an option for paragon. I think keeping Vit is okay, because you need that for HC and it won't help you advance when you hit the dps wall. Honestly, I don't know if there is something that I would replace it with, but I know that option would help.
2. Modify the damage equations in how they relate to main stat. Essentially, diminishing returns becomes so powerful (after a certain point) that damage gains from additional stats when you are at max level (70 for now) become asymptotic. You will continue to have power gains, but it will be less of an impact to competitive play. Also, it allows for you to actually feel powerful again when leveling in the next expansion because your paragon will start scaling with your real xp growth as you get to the new max level.
Why not just stopping the leveling at paragon 800?
Well that defeats the purpose of the whole system, which was to give some progression after you reach max level, initially, and after paragon level 100, later.
How about a trade-off? Can level beyond 800 but no longer give points to spend. At 50 points per option after 800 consider it full and "Well Done on your extra levels" but you won't suddenly become overpowered due to it.
I'd rather have more 4 Stat options per tab as has been suggested since Paragon 2.0 was announced.
Small boosts to Elemental Damage, Elite Damage, Elite Reduction, Melee Reduction, Block, Ranged Reduction, Dodge, and on and on and on...
This would raise the needed level to "Max" Paragon levels to 1600... Removing the excessive amount of Main Stat points spended.
People who play 24/7 and level like crazy dont even represent 1% of the playerbase. Devs shouldnt take drastic measures based on addicted people.
I've been a casual player since release, sometimes taking a break for a few weeks, etc. Have never farmed levels like a moron, I'm currently Paragon 600+ and actually having a great time with this Cube hype.
1. XP gear. Xp gear wasn't mutiplicative before, there was a bug that made it so and they kept it. They are switching to making xp bonuses split evenly among the party members but this doesnt really solve the problem. It still forces people to wear xp gear and makes paragon grinding too easy.
2. Extreme power creep. It's gotten so easy to speed farm higher and higher tiers that the xp gain is just too high right now.
I'm ok with number 2, but I really think they should eliminate xp gear.
I (ab-)used the recent raised activity level of the community to bring attention to a topic that's worrying me lately - which is the glaring disparity in paragon levels, which turns it into a required grind rather than the optional addition to end-game that it was meant to be in the beginning.
Here's the original thread on the official forums: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/18300609977 and the copy/paste:
The PTR is online, everything is going to be tested, and everything looks great. Even the biggest problem for most players in 2.2.1 (trials) has been addressed (i.e., removed). Thank you for that, it's looking great!
Along those lines, another important issue has been addressed recently - the injustice in gaining paragon levels (i.e., "leechers" in XP runs), as John Yang tweeted today. That's also a very welcome change. Nevertheless, there's an underlying issue that could easily evolve into the next big frustration thing for many players, given that paragon leveling becomes even easier in 2.3. And that is the fact that:
Leveling paragon is mandatory, and is becoming more and more mandatory.
In the beginning of the system everyone started with not more than paragon 350ish, if I remember correctly. The subsequent steps were celebrated by the community: first 500, first 600, first 700, first 800, and so on. Those were milestones that were hard to achieve, it was more like a challenge and less like something that was achievable for the average Joe player - let alone something that actually had a benefit in relation to the effort required to get there. However, recently this has changed. More exactly, it changed with the XP bonus changes in 2.2 that ended in changing the XP gain by an order of magnitude (10b XP per hour was something impressive once, these days you need to be north of 100b XP per hour to achieve the same effect).
I cannot find the bluepost anymore, but I remember that after the inception of the paragon system you (Blizzard) constantly stated that paragon should be optional and not mandatory anymore. Well, that has changed.
Now that paragon 800 is not an elusive visionary goal anymore but something the top players achieve in far less than a week, the system turns from some optional endgame thing to strive for into a mandatory thing to complete. Optimizing gear and gem ranks is important, but paragon is as important to reach high rankings. To bring up a clearer example: from paragon 600 to 800 the effective benefit you get is 50 more points in the first tab - 150 points are more or less "meh". From paragon 800 to 1000, you gain 200 points in the first tab, which means 1000 main stat. The real paragon system starts after 1000 - and never stops. Some players will be paragon 2000 (!) in 2-3 weeks (Dani and Ryu on EU non-season), and some more will be after the season ends and non-season and season XP are being added (Vajet on EU season is also close to 1900 in combined paragon). 2000 paragon means those players will have 5000 (!) more main stat than a paragon 1000 player - which is someone who also does play quite a lot - but it's a gap that no rift RNG, no gem rank efforts, no gear differences can close.
Another concrete example: I'm paragon 950 as I write this and get 5 main stat more every 30-40 minutes if I run speed Greater Rifts. That's a guaranteed (!) upgrade that I don't get easily from gear anymore, especially not in this time frame. However, it's also a really boring upgrade. It doesn't give me an excitement as a new item does, even if that item is a very minor upgrade. The core of Diablo should - as it has always been - the item hunt. It should not be trials, it should not be RNG, and it should not be paragon.
I recently heard a lot of players - even famous streamers - saying the same thing, and those guys are playing basically 24/7. Yet, because they do not leech paragon 24/7 but enjoy the game in all its glory, they have the feeling that they cannot compete anymore.
Anyways, long explanation, but here are two short solutions:
1) Scale down the XP gained. Basically, if it was 1/10th of what it is now, players wouldn't reach paragon 1500 after 2 months into the season (which is the fact now!), but rather "only" paragon ~870 (50 trillion versus 5 trillion combined XP required). However, that might impact some player's experience negatively... as high-level players wouldn't gain any paragon levels anymore, and low-level players might never reach that nice paragon 800. Therefore, a potentially better solution:
2) Make the benefit of paragon levels after 800 less "overpowered". Every level above 800 should only give one main stat, for example; and it should probably be pre-assigned to the core main stat (so you don't have to re-assign all the leftover points once you switch to a different character). It would still give high-paragon players a huge advantage (those paragon 2000 players would still have 1000 main stat more than active, but not super crazy players); but it wouldn't be as much of a difference as it is now (which is more than having all items ancient vs. non-ancient).
TL;DR: Change paragon XP gain or benefits after 800 to make it non-mandatory and optional again. Thanks!
I can only agree. Ive not been playing Diablo 3 for a long while now, but i got paragon 200 the hard way before i stopped. And seeing this fills me with despair. Paragon leveling seriously needs to be reined in, its not what the game should be about. Its grinding for new and better items, not mooching xp.
Yeah, have to agree. The whole paragon system is kind of a train wreck aswell. Hopefully in the expansion it'll be completely overhauled, but until then it would be really nice to see some sort of temporary tweak to it.
Well that defeats the purpose of the whole system, which was to give some progression after you reach max level, initially, and after paragon level 100, later.
When the overhauled paragon system was introduced, level 800 was supposed to be very time consuming to reach, but with the subsequent changes (XP, GR, etc.), it became quite trivial for people playing a lot.
In seasons, I don't think it's such a big issue, because any advantage is lost when season is reset, but maybe it could benefit a little from toning it down, so people optimizing their XP farming, don't get so much ahead.
However the problem is for non-season, as the gap is constantly increasing. This means that simply nerfing the benefits would make the top paragon levelers very unhappy.
1000% agree. Diablo at it's heart MUST be about the gear grind. Paragon should be like the tokens in WoW, a little something to assist you, should RNG not be your friend.
I don't know why, but I get the feeling when we get a new Expac (hopefully this year at Gamescom/Blizzcon) we might be seeing Paragon 3.0
As usual, you are correct Bagstone. I think that there are a few other options:
1. Remove main stat as an option for paragon. I think keeping Vit is okay, because you need that for HC and it won't help you advance when you hit the dps wall. Honestly, I don't know if there is something that I would replace it with, but I know that option would help.
2. Modify the damage equations in how they relate to main stat. Essentially, diminishing returns becomes so powerful (after a certain point) that damage gains from additional stats when you are at max level (70 for now) become asymptotic. You will continue to have power gains, but it will be less of an impact to competitive play. Also, it allows for you to actually feel powerful again when leveling in the next expansion because your paragon will start scaling with your real xp growth as you get to the new max level.
How about a trade-off? Can level beyond 800 but no longer give points to spend. At 50 points per option after 800 consider it full and "Well Done on your extra levels" but you won't suddenly become overpowered due to it.
I'd rather have more 4 Stat options per tab as has been suggested since Paragon 2.0 was announced.
Small boosts to Elemental Damage, Elite Damage, Elite Reduction, Melee Reduction, Block, Ranged Reduction, Dodge, and on and on and on...
This would raise the needed level to "Max" Paragon levels to 1600... Removing the excessive amount of Main Stat points spended.
People who play 24/7 and level like crazy dont even represent 1% of the playerbase. Devs shouldnt take drastic measures based on addicted people.
I've been a casual player since release, sometimes taking a break for a few weeks, etc. Have never farmed levels like a moron, I'm currently Paragon 600+ and actually having a great time with this Cube hype.
Edit: Grammar and clarity!
Agreed. The problem came from two main issues.
1. XP gear. Xp gear wasn't mutiplicative before, there was a bug that made it so and they kept it. They are switching to making xp bonuses split evenly among the party members but this doesnt really solve the problem. It still forces people to wear xp gear and makes paragon grinding too easy.
2. Extreme power creep. It's gotten so easy to speed farm higher and higher tiers that the xp gain is just too high right now.
I'm ok with number 2, but I really think they should eliminate xp gear.
i can only imagine, now with Kanai's Cube, people are goin to stack even more bonus XP, and the leech gear will be even more powerfull .